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Ranx Xerox
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Posted - 2003.11.08 11:13:00 -
[1]
I see now everywhere heavy ogres drones at 55 - 60 K its exactly the mineral cost with all skills & bp rechearch so why people selle at this price breaking the market ???
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Roba
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Posted - 2003.11.08 11:47:00 -
[2]
Its because they have research and they have maxed out skills in manufacturing. LVL 5 prod efficency allows people to make items 25% cheaper
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SEALen
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Posted - 2003.11.08 11:52:00 -
[3]
Edited by: SEALen on 08/11/2003 11:53:47
No not 25% only 20%. PE only gives 4% per level if you look.
And ppl are probably undercutting the price cos they got the mineral or the things from loot.
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Ranx Xerox
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Posted - 2003.11.08 11:56:00 -
[4]
i already have PE 4 and a bp with prod 10 me 20, cost about 66 K with megacytes at 11k, so when i see them at 55K it"s a little hard to beleive they have benefits on sale :p (and they selle about 60 - 100 units)
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SEALen
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Posted - 2003.11.08 12:08:00 -
[5]
Well, I got things wrong.. PE only give 20% off but since they first add 25% on the mineral count on the bp, 20% off would negate that 25% add they did... so you could say it will nock 25% off :)
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LtCol RTButts
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Posted - 2003.11.08 12:32:00 -
[6]
because they dont want to earn much money, that is the only reason.
buy the market off with that crap and sell it for a higher prices. other way is waiting for the moment they start to sell them under the recyclingprices that often happens with other stuff.
pricewars re nice, only recource u need is money and some idiots who sell it to low.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.08 17:02:00 -
[7]
If you get your minerals from mining and/or recycling pirate loot, the mineral cost is NIL. So selling them for 10k is still a 10k profit.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Ranx Xerox
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Posted - 2003.11.08 18:22:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ranx Xerox on 08/11/2003 18:22:40
ok but then why not selling mineral under market price they will save product time & factory slot :p
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.08 18:29:00 -
[9]
"If you get your minerals from mining and/or recycling pirate loot, the mineral cost is NIL. So selling them for 10k is still a 10k profit."
... However if you can sell those raw minerals for 5 times as much, selling the product for 10k (with additional costs of blueprint and research/factory rental fees) is hardly sensible...
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sim2killa
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Posted - 2003.11.08 20:15:00 -
[10]
why would u sell something for less then the value of the minerals used to make them that is pure stupidity
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LtCol RTButts
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:16:00 -
[11]
 Quote:
If you get your minerals from mining and/or recycling pirate loot, the mineral cost is NIL. So selling them for 10k is still a 10k profit.
questions ???
contact me if u dont know how to get rid of ur loot minerals. i will take them all for a symbolic ISK.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.08 21:31:00 -
[12]
Quote:
"If you get your minerals from mining and/or recycling pirate loot, the mineral cost is NIL. So selling them for 10k is still a 10k profit."
... However if you can sell those raw minerals for 5 times as much, selling the product for 10k (with additional costs of blueprint and research/factory rental fees) is hardly sensible...
Not everyone's here for the purpose of gouging as much money from other players as is physically possible.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Talak Relketh
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Posted - 2003.11.09 05:34:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Not everyone's here for the purpose of gouging as much money from other players as is physically possible.
But it's perfectly fine to screw the manufacturers, right? 
---
Mispellars of teh wrold untie! |
Ranx Xerox
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Posted - 2003.11.09 11:23:00 -
[14]
About buying all the "damned low prices items" for putting them at normal price i let you try this yourself :)
You will be fined when another dumb put Ogres at 40k for covering the selling of his friend :)
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.09 12:03:00 -
[15]
Quote:
Quote:
Not everyone's here for the purpose of gouging as much money from other players as is physically possible.
But it's perfectly fine to screw the manufacturers, right?
I have a bookcase made of teak.
That's as much relevant to what I said as your response is.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Jandon Kell
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Posted - 2003.11.09 14:54:00 -
[16]
Quote:
If you get your minerals from mining and/or recycling pirate loot, the mineral cost is NIL. So selling them for 10k is still a 10k profit.
Not hardly Baldour. Have you bought a bp to produce the items? Incurred manufacturing costs (fees) to produce the items? Research fees to research the bp's? Have spent any time to either mine (or purchase) minerals to make the item?
I do like how you do business though. Please feel free to contact me if you do in fact manufacture items by pricing like you mentioned. I would be more than willing to take items off your hands this way. 
It also has nothing to do with gouging customers. Our corps aim is to manufacture modules and have a little profit left over for ourselves.
I must be too simpleminded (laughs from those who know me and no comments) as I truly cannot understand why people have attitudes like yours with regards to manufacturing.
Uhh...My happy glands are out of control |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.09 15:22:00 -
[17]
Quote:
It also has nothing to do with gouging customers. Our corps aim is to manufacture modules and have a little profit left over for ourselves.
'Tis exactly what we do in ours. Yes, we have to buy the bps - ONCE. Over the long term, their cost is 0ISK per item produced. They only have to be researched once, too, so the same applies. The minerals cost me effectively nothing, because they're what's left over from buying ore, refining, and selling on at a profit - so, yes, I can sell for absolutely dirt-cheap prices and still live quite happily. If you can't - move over, sunshine.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.11.09 19:28:00 -
[18]
Edited by: j0sephine on 09/11/2003 19:31:43
"Yes, we have to buy the bps - ONCE. Over the long term, their cost is 0ISK per item produced. They only have to be researched once, too, so the same applies."
... The 'long term' you are talking about is in fact "infinity". Even for something as simple as say, Afterburner I for which the blueprint costs ~80k if i remember correctly, presuming you would be selling 50 of them a day (an optimistic presumption) it would take you nearly 4 years to bring the cost of the BP down to 1 isk per unit. And it's just 80k blueprint. For things like ships where the blueprints costs dozens and hundreds of millions, you'd simply die from old age before that would happen. And it's still not including things like rental fees...
"The minerals cost me effectively nothing, because they're what's left over from buying ore, refining, and selling on at a profit"
Ahh, so you are after all "gouging as much money from other players as is physically possible", just do it on the mineral market. :s
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Dagant
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Posted - 2003.11.10 12:07:00 -
[19]
Maybe some players just build things for something fun to do and then sell them cheep cos they don't want them...
Some people just don't take this game a seriously as others. MAnufacture is just another variation of the game. Not a way to make money...
You may see the cup as half full, others may see it as half empty...
Me... I know the cup is twice as big as it needs to be!!! |
Black Drake
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Posted - 2003.11.11 04:32:00 -
[20]
Its also possiable they looted the items.
*Kill a convoy
*Loot 20 drones (cost was nothing)
*Recycle the drones for 8k each (refining 0 for fighters)
*Or sell the drones at 10k.
Even if the drone drone cost 12k to make, and they're sold at 15k by a manufactur-er, the person who looted them off the convoy is still making more cash then he could have by refining them.
Of course the other end of the spectrum is the "smart" people who just want to use the market and dont think about cost ;)
Theres so many ways to aquire items (besides ships) that it can become really difficult to know which way is best to get the most gain.
If CCP required a fee to place things on the market (not just that .02% that gets taken out when you sell an item) or perhaps making it so only corporations could sell modules and ships then it would require more knowledge of the market system and how to run it then the newbe who aquires a free basic mining drone and decides he has to sell it for 2k on the market...
A system like this is more like our current (RL) market where as you or I couldnt just invent a new face wax and sell it to people but if you had a buisnes like Walmart who liked the idea and helped fund you you could get the product out to a larger audiance vs corner store (trade channle)
Requireing a trade license or something would really help keep the noobs off the market.
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Rizzo
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Posted - 2003.11.13 13:18:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Not everyone's here for the purpose of gouging as much money from other players as is physically possible.
But it's perfectly fine to screw the manufacturers, right?
I have a bookcase made of teak.
That's as much relevant to what I said as your response is.
Seems perfectly relevant to me. You're hinting one reason you sell cheap is you like to allow other people to make money. He's saying that this takes money away from the manufacturers. I trained up PE5 early on and used to make a reasonable living as a manufacturer, but the prices on most stuff have crashed so badly now now that I've virtually given up manufacturing.
Having said that npc mineral prices are not the best to base your product prices on now as several minerals now average below npc price
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JackDonkey
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Posted - 2003.11.13 19:31:00 -
[22]
i haven't made anything to sell yet, but I'll be production effciency 4 tomorrow night. But not being able to sell isogen for 64 kind of sucks, so I may just make something and sell it for cost just so I can in effect be selling my minerals at the good prices 1,4,16,64,256 I'll make sure to include mega at 10k and zydrine I'm not sure. But what right does someone have to complain about low prices when all i'm doing is finding a solution to not being able to get market value for the minerals I mine. I do plan on selling for a little higher though, like a moa for 6.5 mil or something, I think with the crappy me1 infinite copy bp we have now it costs me 6 mil just to make one (mega at 10k zydrine at 1100). At least I won't be selling my isogen for 55.
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Feronia
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Posted - 2003.11.17 17:04:00 -
[23]
Don't you see, you're only making it worse.
So you make Moa's and sell them at mineral value. The guy next door also makes Moa's, but he buys his minerals needed for manufacturing.
Do you expect him to pay NPC prices for his minerals ? How can he make profit, if your selling your Moa's at mineral price ?
The only way for him to keep making money on manufacturing, is to buy his minerals below NPC price.
So don't expect people to pay full value of minerals, when you're killing the market yourself.
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Black Drake
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Posted - 2003.11.22 22:46:00 -
[24]
you know, if you do a little travling you can sell the minerals at NPC value, specially isogen.
best thing i do is make it easy to get everything convienantly. i make every frigate in the game, a couple cruiesrs and a couple dozen popular modules and sell them all at one station near the center of my region. I also try to keep my prices compeditive without reducing the price by 1 isk oO;
Not much you can do since ANYONE can get on the market... With pirate looting, no matter how you sell it, you make a profit; its just most people dont understand the market and how it works so they just do whatever with no real reguard to other options.
Its funny, it costs at least 30k to build wasps now and in this region theres a person selling 50 of them for 28k (thats with BP PE lv 200 and skill PE lv 5 and zydrine at 1600)
Funny to watch the newbs loose money sometimes tho ;)
Hopefully CCP has realized how horriable their system is and are working to correct it but at this rate Eve may implode before the changes occure... (hell they're focusing more on wheather or not you should be able to self destruct your pod x.x)
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Al Thorr
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Posted - 2003.11.23 00:39:00 -
[25]
Hmmm 2 arguements on the whole put relatively well... However just for the record here is my 2 penneth ( cents - for our American colleagues :)
1. FACT - all minerals can be sold at NPC prices - you may have to travel to get the isk but if you produce you do not get your return straight away anyhow
2. The peeps that wish to sell an item(s) below mineral cost are commercial idiots ( My opinion).
3).Why ... eg. ooh if i buy mex at 12 and sell it at 16 isk I make a profit - True
If I buy mex at 13 and sell it at 13 minus paying for a factory I make money ..... FALSE
People who think they are making money are only deluding themselves .. the point is they are not making the money that CAN be made if they were to use a modicum of sense.
This applies to all nOOb and judgiong by the posts the deluded . For all those people with Teak bookcases One question...
Q: Were you able to buy the book case from a wage from an employer .. Or from Money that was earnt buy yourself ? (i.e. self employed)
Right Thats my 2 penneth ..
Good Luck play fair and well :)
Regards Al Thorr
I Am in shape, ROUND is a shape |
Diabolous Meretrix
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Posted - 2003.11.24 15:00:00 -
[26]
1) If someone can sell soemthing for less than "market value" then they are entitled to do that....this reflects real world practice..as does..
2)...the secodn hand market.....wasps may be a great drone to one person..and old useless junk to another...and...
3) If selling thinsg undercuts and denies the whole point of you making them..and therefore you stop making it..then this is called undercutting and cornering a market. It is also in tune with actual, even if slightly not so fair, loss-leaders...this is where a manufacturer will put on sale items at cut price and draw more sales at normal costs.
this is not to mention the wealth of other reasons that things are sold cheap and at less than cost..in other words..so as to get rid of them.
Fact is ..if you are in the business of making stuff..you need to look at the market a bti better and thats not just in your local system.....sellling mins requires selling runs to other regions to get effective and decent prices and profits.
quite simply...if you are making stuff that others are selling at less than you can make em for at cost..then I woudl suggest the idiot and "noob" title would have to apply to the manufacturer.
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BATT
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Posted - 2003.11.24 17:43:00 -
[27]
I agree with above..and things gets more complicated for manufacturers who buys rares at markets prices..the ones who mined it have a much better margin to operate and still make profit..
However ,somes items are better than others ..
some regions are better than others..
its your job to pick and choose those. study the market..go to luminaire ..from there within a jump , you have access to 5 or 6 different regions..
also be patient, soon or later things will sell
even if they priced a bit higher.
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Lansfear
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Posted - 2003.11.25 04:30:00 -
[28]
It's amazing CCP thought they would have a successful market if they allowed players to run it.
Half of you are absolute morons. Time alone is reason to sell your product at higher rates. Manufactorers spend time to gather the BP. Time to aquire the resources for production. Time to train the proper skills assossiated with the trade. And time to allow players to find and purchase the product.
Why would you possibly bother to waiste your precious ever fleeting time for nothing?
Raise your prices, the product will sell. Make your time valuable.
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Steven Gould
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Posted - 2003.11.25 15:55:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Its also possiable they looted the items.
If CCP required a fee to place things on the market (not just that .02% that gets taken out when you sell an item) or perhaps making it so only corporations could sell modules and ships then it would require more knowledge of the market system and how to run it then the newbe who aquires a free basic mining drone and decides he has to sell it for 2k on the market...
A system like this is more like our current (RL) market where as you or I couldnt just invent a new face wax and sell it to people but if you had a buisnes like Walmart who liked the idea and helped fund you you could get the product out to a larger audiance vs corner store (trade channle)
Requireing a trade license or something would really help keep the noobs off the market.
What has that got to do with anything? You are comparing the market to a supermarket system, which it is not. Compare it to a free market of something like ebay in which people can sell for whatever makes sense to them and you have how the market in EVE functions.
You want to do away with this market so that companies can have a monopoly market which is unhealthy seen from a customers prospective and therefore unlogical. The consumer will always go for the lowest price, unless he has to travel a lot for that price in which case he might choose for ease.
If you understand the above you can see there is an easy way to deal with this. Buy up all "cheap" items yourself using company capital, then make one large retrieval run and sell it off again at "normal" prices. This way you make a nice profit and the original seller is happy because he sold the stuff quickly.
Why fix something that doesn't need fixing.
Quote:
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of java that thoughts aquire speed,
the hands aquire shaking,
the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Hizac Neutin
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Posted - 2003.11.25 22:29:00 -
[30]
Hear hear - listen to us all talk as though we are the accountants for large manufacturing corporations; except that we then turn around and look at it from a consumer perspective.
In reality manufacturing has a cost. You pay bills and rent, you buy your machines to manufacture your stuff, you buy in your raw materials, and most importantly of all you pay taxes and wages.
And on top of that you got to make a profit to keep the accountants, and, in PLCs, the shareholders happy. Another point is that the startup money comes from loans or investor capital - both of which normally demand payback via interest or dividends.
So, your bill of materials dictates the minimum price that you can sell. At the end of the day profit rules, so you don't sell at the minimum price or you go bankrupt. Besides selling at or below costs would fall under the category of dumping and when other companies complain about unfair practices such as dumping, trade unions step in to lobby the local government to protect the local economy.
Taking an EVEish example, say we own a construction company that mines our raw minerals to make refined minerals (in reality, owning a foundry to refine your minerals into base metals is a business in itself, so companies like Corus only produce steel and aluminium, they don't actually manufacture finished goods, and don't mine their ore, even though they will help in the R&D of a finished good).
The different departments within a company are subject to profit making rules, even though no money actually exchanges hands. So the processing department artificially purchases the raw minerals from the mining department, and so on. This is because each department has to pay the wages of its employees, as well as maintain the equipment in running order such that it passes safety checks from the relevant inspectorate, and at the same time make a profit.
Now, in modern days, if I were a mining company wishing to extract ore from within a country's area I would have to apply for a permit to mine, and pay in certain cases rent on that land as well. This adds a minimum cost to ore/raw materials. So for example, I would apply for and purchase a permit to mine in a specific asteroid belt - if the Empire States wanted other companies to mine the same area they would give each company the permit to extract a certain amount of raw materials each day.
This rarely happens since mega corporations normally pay the country sufficient cash, plus a small percentage on the income to sweeten the deal.
In EVE it would mean that only the mega corporations would be able to afford the mining space in prime space which is to the detriment of the newbies.
Once the raw materials have been extracted, the cost of refining adds another value. For example, the reason Titanium is a very expensive metal is because it is very difficult to extract. Each time, let us not forget that a foundry does not run automatically but needs employees, and hence wages need to be paid.
This is just an example of the basic value of raw materials which in EVE cannot exist since there is really no cost beyond buying a ship, some mining lasers and training up your refining skills.
On the higher end, we have the R&D companies and the manufacturing companies. The way EVE currently works, a real life example would be where one buys a design for a product that has no IP related to it, and so the design is royalty free. We are then free to modify it slightly to improve our production process and hence manufacture the product at a slightly lower cost (mostly by reducing waste).
We then rent time/machines in a manufacturing shop to manufacture these products. Again there are wages to be paid on top of the time to rent the machines plus materials used further limiting the minimum cost.
However, in EVE we can also mine, refine and sell, therefore allwing us to bypass any of the traditional manufacturing processes.
Also, one does not have any expenses, i.e. we do not need to afford to live anywhere - we don't pay rent, docking fees, or registration fees for our ships; we don't need to eat, ships don't need fuel etc etc.
This is why manufacturing in EVE cannot be compared to real life. Do not forget that if your design has any IP related to it, you have to pay royalties to the companies that came up with the original design. What if, every time you manufacured a product, eg a Blackbird you had to pay a royalty to the Caldari Navy, where the royalty fee was related to how friendly they are to you/your corp?
This has been a very long rant, and I'm not even sure I have got my point across, but this is why manufacturing currently does not work in EVE - don't forget that there is a finite market of 2000 harcore players and 3000 evening players (though they are dwindling).
That sum barely exceeds the number of people living in my area; and we surely don't have 500 shops all selling the same thing.
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