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Kry Meariver
Kry Meariver Corporation
22
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Posted - 2015.05.10 00:12:09 -
[1] - Quote
I was missioning tonight and scanning for combat probes as usual. I saw 2 at the edge of my scan range (14.3 AU). I continued to Dscan and clear the room as usual. Local lit up with criminal flags showing me somebody else got hit. They were all -10.0 criminals of a well known pirate corp. I started scanning quite intently and trying to clear the rooms really fast. Things were going well until I got 4 on my screen. Ok..... I dropped down to 8 AU and still got 4 probes. I dropped down to 4 AU and got 8 probes. This was a clear sign that it was time to get out of Dodge. As I was warping to dock up I got 8 probes at 2 AU. It's impressive how fast this guy was getting the lock in. I have two comments and then a question about this.
First off, this is why I don't fly some super blingy ship. I like them cheap, but effective. Secondly, I am absolutely certain my decision to warp off was the correct one. No matter what feedback I get here, I will always warp off when a mission spots starts to get compromised.
That being said, I was behind a gate and had micro jump drived 100km off the room's entry. If I wasn't paying so much attention to Dscan, how hard would it have been for a -10.0 pirate to hit me before they got Concorded? |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
267
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Posted - 2015.05.10 01:55:45 -
[2] - Quote
Not sure, there are a lot of variables to take into account.
Even with probes when they warp to you they will land at the very first acceleration gate of the mission, if it has acceleration gates that is. Otherwise they land on you.
Once they are in the pocket with you they would still have to cover whatever distance was needed by their fit to be able to take any actions against you. And it is likely that they will draw agro from whatever NPC are left in the pocket while doing this.
These are just a few of the many variables that you would need to take into account, suffice to say that your decision to get out was probably the best one.
Concord does not chase after players simply because they have -10 standing. Concord only responds to them AFTER they shoot someone that is not a valid target, and no Concord does not take gates they will warp directly to the attackers even if you are in a pocket that required players to go through gates. It is great to have godlike powers.
The faction police on the other hand will chase after anyone with -5 or below but in a rather useless fashion most of the time, if they were very effective there would not be many players in high sec with -5 or below standings. Not stating if that is good or bad, simply stating what is. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
539
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Posted - 2015.05.10 02:18:08 -
[3] - Quote
If you are in high sec and not flying something blingy there is no reason to worry. It is not impossible that someone would gank you in high sec just not likely that they would go through all of that effort and expense to gank a cheaply fit mission boat.
There are people that passively scan ships jumping through gates in mission hubs looking for expensive fit ships. There is no way for them to know who exactly you are without warping to your mission space to see. They can however see what type of ship it is that they are scanning down so it is possible that you had the same ship as someone blingy.
As far as response time is concerned the -10 thing means nothing really. Typically -10 gankers will only sit in their pods until it's gank time then they warp right to the target and start shooting. Also I think when you are -10 it is the navy that shoots at you not concord but I could be wrong on that. If you are about to get ganked in high sec most likely you have been ship scanned and determined to be worth the effort and then a cloaky ship has scanned you down and entered your mission space to give the gankers a warp to on your location and a visual confirmation that you are said valuable target.
Concord's response time is longer with lower security rating. So in a 1.0 it's almost instant and in a 0.5 it takes I think around 20 seconds. You can look up the exact numbers but it's not how long it would take concord to kill them but how many gankers they'd need to get it done in that time.
So what could happen is that gankers see your ship and know your fit since they scanned you. They can do an eft load out and figure out about what your EHP would be versus your weakest resist and then divide that by the concord response time of what the local sec status is then divide by the dps of the cheapest ship strong against your tank's resist hole and then know exactly how many of those ships thus how much it would cost to blow up your ship in time. So the concord response time doesn't have anything to do with their ability to gank you just how much it would cost to gank you. |
Paranoid Loyd
5068
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Posted - 2015.05.10 02:51:26 -
[4] - Quote
The key is to move away from the warp-in spot, as long as you are not sitting on top of it, you should be fine.
Gankers that are going to invest in Nados/Talos to kill you (unless it's personal) will know whether or not your ship is blingy before they even attempt it (you will be scanned with a ship scanner on the undock or at a gate)*. Some may use Thrashers/Catalysts just for lulz to shoot a non-bling fit, so as long as you are out of a thrasher's range you will be fine.
If you are flying bling and care about losing it then you should continue to operate as you described above.
*This is why it is essential to have insta-undocks and docks at your station
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
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Traejun DiSanctis
Astro Technologies
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
106
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Posted - 2015.05.10 05:25:10 -
[5] - Quote
Warping off was the right thing to do... period. You ride out 10-15 minutes in the station, then head back in and finish. It's not complicated.
The alternative is to stay and maybe lose your ship... which, if a battleship, will take a lot of L4s to pay back. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
357
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Posted - 2015.05.10 06:57:46 -
[6] - Quote
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:Warping off was the right thing to do... period. You ride out 10-15 minutes in the station, then head back in and finish. It's not complicated.
The alternative is to stay and maybe lose your ship... which, if a battleship, will take a lot of L4s to pay back.
Reported for trolling. 
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Livonia Velorea
The Fiendish Pixies
43
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Posted - 2015.05.10 08:27:39 -
[7] - Quote
Something to bare in mind although I guess not common place in highsec, is that a good combat scanner hunting another player can use dscan to pinpoint a fairly accurate area in space that thier target is in. I've scanned players with a single scan cycle and they were in Frigs, a BS would be infinitely easier.
I pew you too! <3
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
Low-Class
1176
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Posted - 2015.05.10 11:12:46 -
[8] - Quote
You would have been fine if you were behind gates.
If you're behind mission gates then the correct thing would have been to have your dscan at minimum range 360 degrees and scan for ships until you see catalysts or tornadoes etc appearing.
Also the guy was not good at scanning, if he was good at scanning you wouldn't even see probes on dscan. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
268
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Posted - 2015.05.10 13:26:24 -
[9] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Also the guy was not good at scanning, if he was good at scanning you wouldn't even see probes on dscan.
Essentially this statement in incorrect.
Probes will always show up on D-Scan if you have them close enough to lock a target ship provided the mission runner is attentive to what is going on, they have the d-scan range set correctly and bother to check it more than once every 8-10 seconds. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
Low-Class
1177
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Posted - 2015.05.10 14:18:52 -
[10] - Quote
most people will not check their d-scan that frequently unless they know what's going on.
A max-skilled and experienced prober can scan in under 5 second and then immediately move probes off d-scan while they go for the second pass. Unless you're hitting d-scan every 6 seconds or get lucky you won't even see them. |
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Exotic Matters
Fried Liver Attack
32
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Posted - 2015.05.10 16:04:06 -
[11] - Quote
I can say I had a ratting BC scanned down in a safe spot (in null) and warped in and tackled all within 60 seconds from the time I landed at the spot after warping away from an anomaly. I reloaded dscan 3-4 times during that 60 seconds and never saw the probes. But scanners this good are not common. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
539
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Posted - 2015.05.10 18:06:43 -
[12] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:Also the guy was not good at scanning, if he was good at scanning you wouldn't even see probes on dscan. Essentially this statement in incorrect. Probes will always show up on D-Scan if you have them close enough to lock a target ship provided the mission runner is attentive to what is going on, they have the d-scan range set correctly and bother to check it more than once every 8-10 seconds.
There is a 5 second cool down on Dscan. I good scanner can sit with his / her probes out past 14.3 au positioned for pinpoint at minimum range and then put them on you scan once and move them in about that time.
While it is possible that you could catch him if you were hitting Dscan exactly every 5 seconds any little hiccup on your end and you could miss him / her doing it. Since no one is a machine that can hit Dscan every 5 seconds the entire time that they are playing without ever missing so much as one second it is not only entirely possible for someone to scan you without you seeing the probes if they know what they are doing it is very hard for you to catch them doing it. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
361
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Posted - 2015.05.10 19:09:31 -
[13] - Quote
For my understanding, if you want to move probes away after a dscan run, you have to make the probes warp/retract, right?
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Kry Meariver
Kry Meariver Corporation
23
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Posted - 2015.05.10 20:44:44 -
[14] - Quote
Just thought I would fill everyone in. I got the mission done and a little bit of it salvaged. I had to weight 2 hours before they cleared out and it was safe to go in. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
7976
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Posted - 2015.05.10 21:14:40 -
[15] - Quote
Lol at most of the answers here.
OP... you were never really in much danger. While gankers do exist and it is a business... you only realistically need to take two precautions;
- don't use ungodly expensive mods (a little bit of Faction stuff is okay though).
- stay off the warp in points (so you have time to warp away if they come in)
Otherwise, you can remain fairly ignorant (though, I would not recommend doing so).
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
269
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Posted - 2015.05.11 01:03:36 -
[16] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:most people will not check their d-scan that frequently unless they know what's going on.
A max-skilled and experienced prober can scan in under 5 second and then immediately move probes off d-scan while they go for the second pass. Unless you're hitting d-scan every 6 seconds or get lucky you won't even see them.
Probes only move to their newly designated position once you press the scan button, until then they stay exactly where they were.
So your 5 seconds really ends up more like this.
1 - 5 seconds to scan.
2 - 10 - 15 seconds for the scanner to designate a new probe position outside d-scan range and re-scan to force the probes to move.
3 - 10 - 15 seconds to designate another probe position closer to the target and then scan again.
Repeat steps 2 and 3 above until a target lock can be achieved.
If a mission runner is d-scanning every 8-10 seconds there is a very high chance that they will find the probes and get out long before any real danger comes close.
And yes I have tested this repeatedly, probes do not re-position in space until you hit the scan button. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
5089
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Posted - 2015.05.11 01:12:05 -
[17] - Quote
OP - I occasionally FC gank squads targetting mission runners.
Usually we'd only go after you if we had intel that you were blingfit, but sometimes there are other considerations. Particularly if we've just failed a gank, as FC I'd hit something I knew we'd kill to keep up fleet morale (rather than hit a more lucrative target we might fail).
And sometimes it's just about setting an example of someone to get money from everyone else. "Pay up, or end up like HIM (killmail link)".
You did everything pretty much right, except your D-scan technique could be improved.
Here's what I do if doing PVE in deadspace in dangerous space where bubbles aren't a factor (so lowsec, or highsec if I have killrights on me or active wars):
- Look at how hard I am to scan down. This is your 'Signature Radius' stat divided by your 'Sensor Strength' stat. 10 is trivial, 6 is easy, 4 is medium, 2 is somewhat hard and 1.5 will take most probers ages. Call this number X.
- Watch for probes within X AU.
- If you see 1 to 3 combat scanner probes - go on alert and recall drones/deployables. If you see 8, abandon drones and deployables and align out.
- If you have a microjumpdrive fitted, fire it off. Being further from the warpin point will help you.
- If you get neutrals or hostiles on grid, decide immediately "Can I fight them and an unknown number of reinforcements?". Make the decision and stick to it.
- If you flee the field, return in a totally different ship.
- If you fight, use rat AI to your advantage and minimize your use of warp scramblers/disruptors or webs (or other EWAR) - rats have a weird AI that sees those modules as super-threatening.
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1110
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Posted - 2015.05.11 02:52:54 -
[18] - Quote
my main tactic is get in and out as fast as possible. getting a good distance off the warp in point helps too. I don't ever watch d-scan when running missions. Also my fits aren't very blingy, If someone wants to gank me for lulz, go for it!
@ChainsawPlankto
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
540
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Posted - 2015.05.11 02:58:54 -
[19] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:
Probes only move to their newly designated position once you press the scan button, until then they stay exactly where they were.
So your 5 seconds really ends up more like this.
1 - 5 seconds to scan.
2 - 10 - 15 seconds for the scanner to designate a new probe position outside d-scan range and re-scan to force the probes to move.
3 - 10 - 15 seconds to designate another probe position closer to the target and then scan again.
Repeat steps 2 and 3 above until a target lock can be achieved.
If a mission runner is d-scanning every 8-10 seconds there is a very high chance that they will find the probes and get out long before any real danger comes close.
And yes I have tested this repeatedly, probes do not re-position in space until you hit the scan button.
You can figure out pretty much where someone is with Dscan. Then it is just a matter of moving the probes on top of him and hitting scan then immediately moving them out of Dscan range and hitting scan again. Your three times 10-15 seconds thing is for someone being slow or lazy or not good at combat probing.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
361
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Posted - 2015.05.11 10:41:10 -
[20] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Donnachadh wrote:
Probes only move to their newly designated position once you press the scan button, until then they stay exactly where they were.
So your 5 seconds really ends up more like this.
1 - 5 seconds to scan.
2 - 10 - 15 seconds for the scanner to designate a new probe position outside d-scan range and re-scan to force the probes to move.
3 - 10 - 15 seconds to designate another probe position closer to the target and then scan again.
Repeat steps 2 and 3 above until a target lock can be achieved.
If a mission runner is d-scanning every 8-10 seconds there is a very high chance that they will find the probes and get out long before any real danger comes close.
And yes I have tested this repeatedly, probes do not re-position in space until you hit the scan button.
You can figure out pretty much where someone is with Dscan. Then it is just a matter of moving the probes on top of him and hitting scan then immediately moving them out of Dscan range and hitting scan again. Your three times 10-15 seconds thing is for someone being slow or lazy or not good at combat probing.
Do you have a good video link for professional combat probing?
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
5092
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Posted - 2015.05.12 03:07:03 -
[21] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:
Do you have a good video link for professional combat probing?
This would make a really, really good guide in this forum if someone wants to do it. (I'm only mediocre at combat probing)
Shoot everyone. Let the Saviour sort it out.
I enforce the New Haliama Code of Conduct via wardec ops. Ignorance of the law is no excuse - read about requirements for highsec miners at www.minerbumping.com
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Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
599
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Posted - 2015.05.12 08:12:22 -
[22] - Quote
You can never be too paranoid, but it should be noted that unless they're hunting your T1 mission-running ship in a fleet comprised entirely of Stealth Bombers, you're going to see their _ships_ on d-scan before they can get to you if you're in the second or higher room of the site. Generally, waiting for that point to warp out is more standard for high/low-sec.
Regarding scanning, given that they were zeroing in on you the long way the goal was probably to chase you out of your spot/intimidate you, not to actually catch you. Combat-scanning the common mission/combat site ships is actually a lot faster than what you're describing. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
269
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Posted - 2015.05.12 14:47:38 -
[23] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Donnachadh wrote:
Probes only move to their newly designated position once you press the scan button, until then they stay exactly where they were.
So your 5 seconds really ends up more like this.
1 - 5 seconds to scan.
2 - 10 - 15 seconds for the scanner to designate a new probe position outside d-scan range and re-scan to force the probes to move.
3 - 10 - 15 seconds to designate another probe position closer to the target and then scan again.
Repeat steps 2 and 3 above until a target lock can be achieved.
If a mission runner is d-scanning every 8-10 seconds there is a very high chance that they will find the probes and get out long before any real danger comes close.
And yes I have tested this repeatedly, probes do not re-position in space until you hit the scan button.
You can figure out pretty much where someone is with Dscan. Then it is just a matter of moving the probes on top of him and hitting scan then immediately moving them out of Dscan range and hitting scan again. Your three times 10-15 seconds thing is for someone being slow or lazy or not good at combat probing. Do you have a good video link for professional combat probing?
The 5 second process mentioned relies on you having done a major d-scan location of a possible target first and how long that takes is purely player skill driven but the shortest amount of time I have ever seen it done in is about 20 - 30 seconds. And doing so requires you to be on grid with the mission runner so that should alert them to step up there d-scans, but not always.
The 5 seconds is referring to the actual time required for the probes to do the scan cycle itself and represents the absolute minimum time. To get it that low requires the best ships, modules and implants the game has to offer. For those using anything less than the very best of everything scan cycle times are likely to be in the 7-8 second range.
Another portion here that this magical 5 seconds does not take into account is that you cannot control the exact location of your probes deployment even if you can control the exact formation and spacing. Given this it is quite likely that the scanner would have to re-position the probe cluster before they can scan and that would add an additional 10-15 seconds or so plus the time for the probes to actually move so add this to the magical 5 second scan. Even with max skills, best equipment, years of personal experience doing this and the d-scan location head start probes are quite likely to be visible on d-scan for between 15 and 20 seconds before they are moved or recalled.
As for the video of combat scanning I have not seen a really good one but then I had a good teacher and have not really looked.
The actual probe scanning portion of this is relatively simple, it is the d-scan location that can be hard for some to learn. |
GankYou
Redshield Holding Company
375
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Posted - 2015.05.13 20:11:32 -
[24] - Quote
All this suspense in the first two paragraphs. 
Then it turned out it was in Hisecks. HAHAHAHAHA. 
...And They All Crave One Thing - ISK. Gÿ+
Nullsec Ore Changes - Lowend Mineral Price Tracking [2015]
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1117
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Posted - 2015.05.14 19:09:43 -
[25] - Quote
GankYou wrote:All this suspense in the first two paragraphs. Then it turned out it was in Hisecks. HAHAHAHAHA.
that plus the amount of paranoia is just lulz.
if someone takes the time to probe me out I want to give them a little wave when they show up on grid 
@ChainsawPlankto
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