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In defense of 15km warp distances.

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Natasha Kerensky The Company Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:15:00 - [31] Guys guys guys, the only thing "Warp to 0" is going to do is make travel time in EVE faster. It will NOT make you any safer. Any 0.0 veteran will tell you that real pirates camp BOTH sides of the gate. Anyone who thinks "Warp to 0" is going to keep them safe in 0.0 is going to get torn apart like snot through a tissue. Im really looking forawrd to Warp to 0 since it will allow players like me. who can only have about an hour a day to play EVE, to get more done in our game sessions Peace in the middle east -Nat
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:26:00 - [32] Edited by: Varis on 10/11/2006 05:27:22 Originally by: Natasha Kerensky Guys guys guys, the only thing "Warp to 0" is going to do is make travel time in EVE faster. It will NOT make you any safer. Any 0.0 veteran will tell you that real pirates camp BOTH sides of the gate. Anyone who thinks "Warp to 0" is going to keep them safe in 0.0 is going to get torn apart like snot through a tissue. Im really looking forawrd to Warp to 0 since it will allow players like me. who can only have about an hour a day to play EVE, to get more done in our game sessions Umm.. OK. are you telling me that a person with no instas, slow boating 15km, is JUST AS SAFE as someone who insta-jumps/docks? Instas are a "work around". They shouldn't be there in the first place. "Its not a bug, its a feature".. yeah (grr.. made me post again when i didn't want to) Originally by: Avon A note about "Warp to 0km won't change anything because people already have instas". Well, frankly, they shouldn't have them. Arguing that warp to 0 is okay because people can already do it is bogus. Instas are a broken game mechanic which cause huge server strain. Removing the server strain doesn't magically stop the game mechanic being fundamentally broken. Look back on the posts on the subject of instas, back to before they were as common as they are now, before they contributed a fraction of the load they do now. Those posts give great reasons why instas should not exist, and apply equally to warp to 0. Travel times would not increase without instas, because people can't magically create time. What would happen is that travel distances would decrease. People like instas because they like the safety net they provide. People like instas because they are afraid of playing the game. They want a tool to avoid parts they don't like, not travel but interaction with other players. They want that tool to have no drawbacks, no 'cost', no compromise. They want to avoid having to use the indended tools provided by the game (Those that require you to actually fit your ship appropriately). They want to gain an advantage with no penalty. These are the people Warp to 0km panders to.
MECTO Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:12:00 - [33] Originally by: Varis "Its not a bug, its a feature".. yeah same as local It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:22:00 - [34] Originally by: General Xerxes If what you say is true, Instas would have made everything but the biggest ships obselete, but they haven't, so having a less server crippling version of them won't make any difference. What you fail to see or are just ignoring is that instas at least took time to make, and you couldn't have them for every gate and station from every possible vector you might want to use them on. With Warp to 0, you will have the 'perfect insta' everywhere. It takes an already gameplay undermining ability and trumps it with completely removing the player randomizing element. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender What is your opinion?
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 09:19:00 - [35] Just realised as well - if the warp to 0 gets implemented, then all speed modules are basically nerfed as well - instead people will be using those lovely inertia stabilisers to get more agile... Catching even slow industrials on the "otherside" will become near impossible as well.. so basically there will be no way to stop a ship that wants to get through.
Natasha Kerensky The Company Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.10 09:48:00 - [36] Edited by: Natasha Kerensky on 10/11/2006 09:53:31 Originally by: Varis Umm.. OK. are you telling me that a person with no instas, slow boating 15km, is JUST AS SAFE as someone who insta-jumps/docks? Instas are a "work around". They shouldn't be there in the first place. What im saying is people who use instas have a false sense of security. "Warp to 0" will not save you when you pop out on the other side of a gate camp and there is a gang waiting for you to decloak. With the additiion of Force Recon ships and Interdictors, insta uers secuirty has decreased even more. And while they were never intended to be in the game in the first placed, the only REAL benefit instas have is decreased travel time, which overall is a great benefit to the game. Like I stated before, some people have a limited amount of time to play EVE, decreasing travel times will allow more players to accomplish more during thier game sessions please dont roll your eyes at me
Apertotes Nuevos Horizontes O X I D E	Posted - 2006.11.10 09:48:00 - [37] Originally by: Varis Just realised as well - if the warp to 0 gets implemented, then all speed modules are basically nerfed as well - instead people will be using those lovely inertia stabilisers to get more agile... Catching even slow industrials on the "otherside" will become near impossible as well.. so basically there will be no way to stop a ship that wants to get through. aint it great? suddendly, PVP in EVE has turned consentual!!! btw, this means more WoW kiddies will play this game, which turns into more server load, and thus, more lag, so we are back again at the same point. we'll have the same lag, but a censored version of our favorite game.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:14:00 - [38] Well, seeing as most inhabitants of 0.0 have insta's anyway and are creating huge server load, it will make little diference other than help reduce lag for the game. Sound's good to me Let's see who's standing at the end when the dust settle's
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:38:00 - [39] No offence Varis, but you've only focused on half the story, if that. There's an entire world of strategy you've completely overlooked, and that is What happens when you jump into a system. I don't actually have a Pro/Against position for 0km warping, but just came across this post and felt it was only telling half the story at best. Originally by: Varis There is no longer any real reason to pick smaller lighter ships - only the biggest ship in class is really viable. When you jump into an interdictor/bubble/interceptor camp, there's only one thing that will save you. Speed. Originally by: Varis Why bother flying cruisers when a fleet of battleships will get there just as fast and do more damage? There's a whole plethora of reasons why you'd still want to bring Cruisers over BS. You can't seriously be thinking that "Time it takes to arrive to the fight" is the sole determining factor for what ship to bring. Cruisers are cheaper, faster, smaller signature, etc etc etc. The list goes on. Originally by: Varis Why bother using a frigate when a cruiser will tackle even better and get there just as fast? A frigate will always tackle better than a Cruiser, it's faster and has a better lock time. A lot of tackling involves speed and lock time. Interceptors will still arrive faster, given their increased warp speed. Frigates will still be the best class for tackling, that Cruisers and other classes can arrive at the same time wont change their fundamental tactical roles. Why? Because they're determined by a LOT more than simply how fast they can mobilise. Originally by: Varis With instas (or warp to 0) I can travel as far as i want with no real preparation. Not at all. Sure you don't need instas, but your comment negates a whole lot of 0.0 realities. Interceptor/Bubble/Dictor camps will still catch the unprepared and the slow. Originally by: Varis If the enemy has a bunch of ships trying to block the gate, I can just fly right past them (especially in empire where there is no way of using bubbles, interdictors, or similar) It's not "Especially" in empire, it's "Only" in Empire that this can happen. You can't fly past Dictor bubbles or Mobile Warp Disruptors. Originally by: Varis There will be little way of catching anyone Get them on the other side of the gate. Tackling 101. Originally by: Varis the "speed" of a ship not count. ...Of course it does. Speed and speed alone will save you from a Dictor camp you jump into. ____
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:41:00 - [40] nooey ... regarding the jump-in thingy .. have you been on the testserver? have you tried the new inertia stabs - fitted on a hauler, a cruiser, a bs, a BC and so on?? then you know why the jump-in thingy won't work that good if you can't use an interdictor (read: low-sec) ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
DeckardIRL Gallente Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:45:00 - [41] As posted in this Thread You are missing the whole point and also... You will miss bubbles and gate camps... and how about the otherside of the gate... your BS gonna warp off as fast as a frig? Stupid post no offence... the danger is now on the other side of the gate... will you see t hat coming? Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:53:00 - [42] My point still remains. Varis seemed to overlook the notion that there's two chances to catch someone: In warp to a gate, and as they jump into system. Warp to 0km only affects one of those. It sounds like changes to nanofibers affects the other one, to an extent. Anyways, I'm just saying, catching people as they jump in is entirely unaffected by the 0km change. As such, I felt the Varis was overstating people's inability to catch their prey due to these changes (And these changes alone. It appears that other changes will have an effect on that) Like I said, I don't really have an opinion one way or the other, only posted because I half know Varis and the thread caught my eye and I felt it was a bit one sided. ____
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:11:00 - [43] If removing the millions of gate to gate bookmarks improves network latency, and stops the screen from freezing during battles, then it outweighs any negative aspect. From what I've seen over the past several days on this topic, the biggest complainers are the pirates. Obviously, many of you have forgotten that you can follow targets through a gate. That's where you'll get them. Stop camping, and start hunting.
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:12:00 - [44] If removing the millions of gate to gate bookmarks improves network latency, and stops the screen from freezing during battles, then it outweighs any negative aspect. From what I've seen over the past several days on this topic, the biggest complainers are the pirates. Obviously, many of you have forgotten that you can follow targets through a gate. That's where you'll get them. Stop camping so much, and start hunting.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:17:00 - [45] autopilot should still run at 15km, player clicking at 0km, its exactly how bm's/autopilot works but will remove millions of bookmarks. However there is one thing which I will cry over, human error and dumbness, people that in eve now that don't have bm's and people that use wrong bm's are food for me. Euro Empire/0.0 Gang PvP Recruitment
Guano Cakes	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:27:00 - [46] There's this thing for catching people who warp from gate to gate > a small bubble. For people warping in from other angles, you use > a medium bubble (or two, which almost covers EVERY warp in vector when set up properly). And nevermind that someone has to know where the bubble is to know where to warp in from, eh? You'll just have to spend a few more mil, and train up your skills a bit more to use the better ones and ensure that you catch anyone who DARES try to use that warp-gate! Oh, did you hear that large bubbles are on SiSi? Their radius actually encompasses the warp gate... yeah. Go whack yourself to that. As for empire? Well tough luck, empire is supposed to be safer, fit an armor tank and some sensor boosters and tackle them from the other side if you want to risk it. Ask Armoured Assassins how to catch people jumping into low-sec systems if you need some advice, they popped my condor the other day, with a sentry tanking brutix, before I could enter warp from decloaking (while using an insta, for that matter). LOL the safety of Empire, indeed! To end this post: I do sympathize with those of you who experienced "The Stone Age" of EVE. I've seen many an MMO grow up and change and evolve, but they typically have changed for the better. All I have to say is don't be afraid of change, and try to hold the good up over the bad. Roll with the punches, so to speak.
Guano Cakes	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:32:00 - [47] Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte nooey ... regarding the jump-in thingy .. have you been on the testserver? have you tried the new inertia stabs - fitted on a hauler, a cruiser, a bs, a BC and so on?? then you know why the jump-in thingy won't work that good if you can't use an interdictor (read: low-sec) Hi, thanks for bringing up the inertial stabs. I understand they are a bit overpowered ATM on test, and strongly doubt they will be released in their current state. The current ones simply increase agility as it should be (IMO). Being able to turn and accelerate faster: GOOD. Being able to do both while reaching interdictor speed on a battleship: wtf. They were simply being under-used because nanofibers gave almost as much of an agility boost while also greatly increasing top speed... seems they've just made Super-nanos now. Bleh.
Athena Starfire Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:35:00 - [48] Its so nice, threads and threads of whining pirates and campers, may not be able to pop everyone and wreck the enjoyment of peaceful players...SO SAD!! *THANK YOU CCP!!* -- Proud Winner of the "Carebear of the Year" Award
Apertotes Nuevos Horizontes O X I D E	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:38:00 - [49] Originally by: Guano Cakes I've seen many an MMO grow up and change and evolve, but they typically have changed for the better. yeah, UO, DAoC and SGW come to mind.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:40:00 - [50] Edited by: Nooey on 10/11/2006 12:40:54 Uh...to those idiots who think Varis is whiny pirate or some skill-less camper, get a clue. She's part of Jericho Fraction, a corp known galaxy wide for NOT SHOOTING NEUTRALS. Not only that but the guerilla-style hit and run tactics commonly employed by JF are just about the directe opposite to camping tactics. Varis brings the points up for what she percieves is the good of the game, not for any other reason. Seriously, people do bring points up for reasons other than to serve their own gameplay. Stupid flamers who throw pathetic kneejerk comments like the one slightly above need to be shot, tbh. ____
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:43:00 - [51] My drones got nerfed in order to reduce lag...well that did'nt work too well, this warp to 0...I fail to see how this is going to help. People will still need bookmarks, to rich roid belts, SS, POS locations, loot from missions, etc etc. So all warp to 0 will do is? What, do away with some of the BM's but not all of them? I got 10isk saying, it aint going to help any, lag will get worse, as gate camps go back to the old ways...6 small warp bubbles cause alot of client lag. Loot from victims, just floating, "waiting for the hauler to show up." And drones out on standby. Now I am all for this warp to 0 thing, but only if it works like CCP says it will, if it dont, then wensday they should reverse that portion of the patch and remove it from the game. I think all these so called fixes to the lag problems, that have been added to the game should be removed, and the game restored back to the way it was. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Semper Fidelis Industries	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:44:00 - [52] Originally by: Voculus If removing the millions of gate to gate bookmarks improves network latency, and stops the screen from freezing during battles, then it outweighs any negative aspect. From what I've seen over the past several days on this topic, the biggest complainers are the pirates. Obviously, many of you have forgotten that you can follow targets through a gate. That's where you'll get them. Stop camping so much, and start hunting. Well spoken. I cant belive how boring lives ppl must have if camping gates and killing noobs is the only thing they can/wanna do? There are so many more aspects of EVE. A whole universe to play in and they just sit at those gates...? Insta-popping indys, laughing and eating popcorn... safe from harm.... wtf....? Comon ppl, you gatecampers belong in disneyland. Real pirates puts some effort into it and take some pride in wtf they are doing. Yea i know, you feel "uber" and powerful when you get those easy kills, with no effort put into it whatsoever. I could easily do the same thing and have my eve-mail full of killmails. But im 34 years old, a father of three, and i just cant picture myself trying so desperate to get that kinda confirmation. I would feel like a 12-yearold gangrapist. Respect to the pirates that make my game interesting. But you gatecampers...? L O L. **** you all. -----====----- Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.
Daftex Muleson Minmatar UNITED KINGDOM MAYHEM	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:51:00 - [53] Originally by: Natasha Kerensky Im really looking forawrd to Warp to 0 since it will allow players like me. who can only have about an hour a day to play EVE, to get more done in our game sessions You're lucky....I usually only get enough time to log on and set the next skill training atm! For my 2 peneth, it seems to me the only REAL pro for warp to 0 amongst all those listed in the threads, is to solve lag issues. Isn't that looking at the prob from the wrong angle though? Surely, the correct answer is to remove the ability to bookmark a spot in space which allows "instas" and causes the lag in the first place. My guess is that the CCP code-monkeys chose the Warp to 0 fix as the easiest option for solving the lag issue.
Tonkin Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:57:00 - [54] im half and half with this. love the idea of warping to 0 with the cost of killing a few peeps. but with the wapr to 0 peeps will mess up thinking they will get away in low sec THANKLS TO BUBBLES people mess up. but if it brings back 300 v 300 fleet battles with instas dead im all for it. more ways to kill peeps in low sec, belts planets or the reciving gate. cepters you wont be able to catch as usual but slower boats yea. ive killed peeps on reciving gates. Sig removed, you sig was too ubber to display and ccp had no choice but to nerf it - CCP(NERFBAT)
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:33:00 - [55] Originally by: Nooey Edited by: Nooey on 10/11/2006 12:40:54 Uh...to those idiots who think Varis is whiny pirate or some skill-less camper, get a clue. She's part of Jericho Fraction, a corp known galaxy wide for NOT SHOOTING NEUTRALS. Not only that but the guerilla-style hit and run tactics commonly employed by JF are just about the directe opposite to camping tactics. Varis brings the points up for what she percieves is the good of the game, not for any other reason. Seriously, people do bring points up for reasons other than to serve their own gameplay. Stupid flamers who throw pathetic kneejerk comments like the one slightly above need to be shot, tbh. Thanks Nooey - and yeah, I dont pirate, I dont shoot neutrals, and my preferred mode of combat is mobile. You would think that I'd prefer this "warp to 0". Interdictors will catch the unwary - that wont change. But with the improved scanning (and even today) its usually quite easy to see if there are interdictors on a gate before I ever get there. If i am being chased i'll now be able to very easily insta out of the system from another gate. Currently i need some extra time to be able to cross the final 15km (or less) of moving via an incorrect BM. With the ability to insta to ANY gate/station in a system, the job just got harder by an order of magniture for any interdictor pilot, as well as supremely easy for everyone else to run. The deciding factor is usually the setup and cost. There are some cruisers that are quite capable of getting very fast lock and intrinsicly have better armour and shield than frigates, If I'm assulting a position i'd rather have the extra armour. And there are a lot of ways to use cruisers as "heavy tacklers" already. Sure, many frigates/ceptors are better (I usually fly them anyway), but I normally call them flying coffins as if any large ship looks at me sideways I get popped fast :) Get them on the other side - umm, have you see the inertia stabilisers? Make a battlecruiser handle like a fast frigate! They are very scary. Basically this change could potentially make the game much faster and more fluid - its a very big change - which will encourage people to form blobs even more (to kill enemy in the even shorter time you have to cath them) and make any kind of static defense that much less useful. Sure, I can adapt etc etc - but I honestly believe the overall changes are much for the worst.
Kaptein Trefot Caldari Calista Industries	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:40:00 - [56] Edited by: Kaptein Trefot on 10/11/2006 13:41:50 I hope the OP knows that there is something called instas that function pretty much like warping to 0km. Without instas or warp to 0km 0.0 would be a lonely lonely place.
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:46:00 - [57] Yes i know there are instas. I think they are a broken machanic which should be bug-fixed out of existance.
Kaptein Trefot Caldari Calista Industries	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:51:00 - [58] Originally by: Varis Yes i know there are instas. I think they are a broken machanic which should be bug-fixed out of existance. Exactly waht good would come out of that? Besides less lag caused by a smaller playerbase that is.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:57:00 - [59] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Becham Warp to 0 goes in tomorrow? Or was that just some sort of metaphor? I do believe he was being rhetorical I've been feeling this way for a long while ever since the automatic 40% insurance came in. Alot of changes these days seem to just dumb the game down to make it easier instead of creating solutions where players would be forced to think and make compromises to get their ideal situation. This new warp to 0km change is just another step down that road. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Ginger Magician Minmatar OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2006.11.10 14:00:00 - [60] Well u know there is one positive aspect to this change if warp to 0km comes in it could be that most pvpers in Eve will leave for new pastures and there wont be anymore lag problem.Those that stick around and carbear for a while will see lag disappear and eventually CCP might realise their mistake and/or increase server capacity to handle instas and warp to 15km once more

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