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In defense of 15km warp distances.

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Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:00:00 - [1] There is a game I used to play - it was called eve: the second genesis. It was a great game about corporate politics, espionage, territorial wars, resource aquisition and Roleplay, I loved every minute of it. It was a slow, thoughtful game where people had to carefully consider and weigh every choice they made about fitting and ship choice. Did I want to scout quickly, go a long way fast and harrass, protect interests, travel safely, or just blow away everything I met? The universe was a big and scary place - with danger lurking around every corner. I had to rely on my corp mate and my own planning and preparation if I wanted to prosper. Today, it looks like that game is going the way of the dodo. There will no longer be any real need of choice. Because tomorrow they introduce instas for all. Previously, If i wanted to make a sale fast i would pick a small light ship (frigate?) and equip it with speed boosters and MWD. Tomorrow I will be able to use a industrial fitted with cargo expanders, and still reach the same destination with only a variance of seconds (rather than minutes or even an hour). If I wanted to carry out a war against my neighbours, i would have to set up an advanced base and stock it with spare ships and clones. Tomorrow I will just travel there and back every time I want a battle. There is no longer any real reason to pick smaller lighter ships - only the biggest ship in class is really viable. Why bother flying cruisers when a fleet of battleships will get there just as fast and do more damage? Why bother using a frigate when a cruiser will tackle even better and get there just as fast? The problem is the "insta" issue. With instas (or warp to 0) I can travel as far as i want with no real preparation. If the enemy has a bunch of ships trying to block the gate, I can just fly right past them (especially in empire where there is no way of using bubbles, interdictors, or similar) There will be little way of catching anyone - the very moment I enter a system, anyone who doesn't want to be there will insta-dissappear - either to another system or into a station. I dont pirate, i dont gate-camp, but I've been caught by both a number of times, and its taken some ingenuity and planning to try getting past them - trying to out-maneuver them, lure them away from the camp, or just bringing in friends. Eve is not a "instant gratification" game, but one which was supposed to take some planning. Now the only planning I really need is how much ammo to bring. I loved this game because it was a refuge against the twitch/trigger happy gamers of FPS and RTS games. It was a strategic 4x game with real opponents, it was like "Civilisation", or Chess, or Diplomacy. It was Elite all grown up. And I'm not the only ones with these thought - I've already read a number of people who have called out in opposition to the "warp to 0" idea, and wanting to do away with instas. Some are saying that the "warp to 0" is the only sensible option, as everyone has instas anyway.... but instas were never an intended game option. The removal of the "slow-boat" travel time reduces drastically the difference in ship classes - it makes anything but "most agile" or "most damage" or "most cargo" irrelevant. It makes the creation of "optimal fittings" very much easier as it makes the "speed" of a ship not count. Players SHOULD have to consider - "how far do I need to go, and how fast do I need to get there" - when making their fittings. If you are in such a hurry to get somewhere you should have to balance out your want of speed against your combat efficiency. Its the whole point of "rapid response" - lighter armour and weaponry but you get there first. In most games when you hear about a enemy incursion, you send your fastest units out to harry the enemy so as to get time to bring up the big guns. Tomorrow in Eve there will be no need - my battleships and artillery will be able to move just as fast as my patrol boats and jeeps.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:02:00 - [2] So many words, but nothing new... but I respect the opinions of the ones who dont want this change. I really want it myself though. We'll see how it turns out. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
General Xerxes GREY COUNCIL	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:05:00 - [3] If what you say is true, Instas would have made everything but the biggest ships obselete, but they haven't, so having a less server crippling version of them won't make any difference.
Samuel Freedom	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:05:00 - [4] There are pro's and cons to 'warp to 0' (reducing lag the biggest pro IMO). There has been lots of threads like this already, I don't see the point, as it is going ahead ..... another warp 0 thread wont change anything, it's all been said before.
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:07:00 - [5] I agree that something needs to be done - perhaps having MWD/AB turn on automatically on leaving warp - or a module that will reduce the warp-error. But there needs to be a compromise. If you want to go faster, you should have to give something up - be that cargo space, protection, or firepower. Anything which is a "must have" or "obvious choice" is broken and needs to be looked at. In those famous words "there is no such thing as a free lunch".
death2nite Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:09:00 - [6] is it possible to beat a dead horse more? may i speak for about a bazzilion of us when i say let it go its dead let it go. if your unhappy with the game or the mechanics of the game then LEAVE. there are endless discussion of warp to 0 clogging the forums. "hes dead jim hes dead jim its worse than that hes dead jim" oh ya and can i have your stuff
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:10:00 - [7] Edited by: Varis on 09/11/2006 20:13:58 Originally by: General Xerxes If what you say is true, Instas would have made everything but the biggest ships obselete, but they haven't, so having a less server crippling version of them won't make any difference. well - if i asked you "whats the best industrial" - the obvious choice is iteron V. Why? Best cargo capacity. The only reason other indy's are really chose is that they are easier to train for. But if you can fly it, you WILL fly it. I agree that insta-BMs have to go. But the method being tested on sisi is not the way to go. It damages too many aspects of the game, simplifies the game too much. edit: ok, I'll let this alone now - I'll just point out this great summary.
Diss Champ Amarr Synergy.	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:15:00 - [8] People with freighters will kill me for saying this but- If the problem with giving everyone 0km is simply travel time, one could make warp time a bigger part of travel time. I.E. scale linearly up the time EVERYTHING spends in warp enough to make the difference in travel time higher between ship classes. This would further allow autopilots to automatically do warp to 0km more "fairly". A side effect of this however is for in-system combat, if you don't have safespots prepared ahead of time, and you warp to a planet for example, if the opposition guesses your destination and are in faster ships, they can get there first by a better margin. Makes scouting and prep with fast ships (preferably cloakers) more important. And ironically gives everyone a new reason to have a bunch of bookmarks.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:20:00 - [9] A good post. You didn't flame. You didn't go into the mechanics of why instas are uber / why instas are teh sux, you just said what you think. And I aggree. There is no earthly reason why a BS or cargo-hauler should be traveling as fast as a frigate. Its the very reason why CCP put 15km warp limits in the game in the first place. Instas broke this mechanic- but they did it slowly. To begin with, you might only have had instas for your favourite litle bit of turf; the rest of the universe was still warp to 15km. Then you might have only had a few of the most used regions; you want to go somewhere new, its warp to 15km. Now most people seem to have instas for every region that they cold ever want to enter; warp to 15km has been killed. If CCP had known that instas would eventually do this, do you think they would have let it get this far? Who knows. Warp to 0km is the worst possible solution. Even if you think 15km is a no go, there are plenty of other ways to fix it. Warp to 5km with no BMs near gates would work. That "star maps" idea was good. Having the stargates "drift" 10 km once a week could work. Even if 0km was in, maybe vastly changing the warping mechanism could b an option. Change it so that BSs are 10x slower at warping, and put in a module in game to speed up warping. That way there'll still be an element of speed in game, as well as an element of choice between faster / better equipped setups. -----------------------------------------------
Felix Dzerzhinsky	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:23:00 - [10] I hope that someday, for all of you who feel a game-breaking mechanic is being introduced, after you have played for two and a half years, and you post a very worried very ceirful post - that some newer player who has no memory tells you to 'give it up', or 'stop beating a dead horse' or 'another post will make no difference' to you. It does make a difference, and like Varis, I have become increcingly sad about this warp to 0 option. I will however go from a more selective pirate to a much more violent pirate when it is released - simply put, I will kill all the idiots who can't get away even after all the advantages defenders get in this game. Good post Varis, I have been composing something similar recently. . .don't listin to those who tell you to give up, they just have no vision.
Paddlefoot Aeon Neogen Industries Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:26:00 - [11] Edited by: Paddlefoot Aeon on 09/11/2006 20:27:32 The logic behind it was this: People were buying g2g instas for every region... database lag was huge. If everyone have all the g2g BMs anyway, why not remove the lag on the server by removing millions of BMs. Also, you can still capture people when they jump into a system... so gate camps will just have to move to the far side of the gate. Also... a Frigate aligns faster than a freighter, so travel time will still be drasticaly reduced if you take the faster-aligning ship. Also... Warp to 0 is a maual choice (like an insta would be). If you set your autopilot, its still warp to 15. ...no worries.... a fleet of intys will still move much faster than a fleet of BS. Next time you are in a fleet op, have everyone hold their cloak after a jump... then have your gang leader hit warp before anyone aligns.... measure the time it takes between the first frig to arrive and the last battleship..... now multiply that over however many jumps you need to go.... time will still be a factor. BMs lag the database, which negatively affects more people than the "change is bad" crowd. Sorry mate, I think you'll find the majority opinion is very much against you. But seeing as you are so strong in your opinions, you should hold off using the Warp to 0 feature, and always jump to 15. Slow boat and make your voice heard! .....or do you use instas now? 'Cause, you know, that would make this whole topic kinda hypocritical...
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:31:00 - [12] I love all the people who say this change will "change nothing, as its just instas as we already have them, but less lag" This is quite obviously wrong. Now, even in 0.0 with bubbles, those bubbles are useless. warp to a belt off to the side, then insta to gate. Its not a replacement for instas, its the ultimate insta, from all directions, for every gate, every time. So much for protecting your space. The enemy already doesnt have to plan much to invade...they can just trickle in and log off. This only makes it worse...no chance to catch peeps at the gate. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Paddlefoot Aeon Neogen Industries Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn I love all the people who say this change will "change nothing, as its just instas as we already have them, but less lag" This is quite obviously wrong. Now, even in 0.0 with bubbles, those bubbles are useless. warp to a belt off to the side, then insta to gate. Its not a replacement for instas, its the ultimate insta, from all directions, for every gate, every time. So much for protecting your space. The enemy already doesnt have to plan much to invade...they can just trickle in and log off. This only makes it worse...no chance to catch peeps at the gate. Catch them at the far side of the gate... or put more than one bubble on the gate. Remember, a bubble 40km behind the gate will pull guys out of warp from both sides.... you just have to get more strategic with your bubble placement...
Vera Okior	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:35:00 - [14] Instas or not, ship type still matters when trying to break through a gate camp. If you jump into a system with a gate camp , in a frigate or even a nanoed indy there is a good chance to escape. But in a cargo expanded indy ,the campers will have you locked and scrammed before you can escape. I don't see how the warp to 0 changes this. Sure people (both of you who traveled without instas ) will be less vulnerable going to the gate , but they are just as vulnerable leaving the gate.
Tarazed Aquilae	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:20:00 - [15] I was in favor of the ôwarp to 0ö change, but now IÆm not so sure. And IÆll admit itÆs for selfish reasons. Gate to gate instas need to go, thereÆs no doubt about that. They are too valuable not to use if they are available but they are taking up massive amounts of server resources. Besides, they are a pain to keep track of. The ôwarp to 0ö option would solve the bookmark problem, which is a good thing. But, with ôwarp to 0ö the deep 0.0 space I live in will become far more accessible to raiding parties. A fleet could leave empire and be there in a few minutes. Then they could withdraw just as quickly leaving us with little time to prepare or respond. If it takes an hour+ just to get out there then not many people will try. Those that do try will probably be spotted and find a very hot reception when they get to us. I fly Gallente ships tooà that means MWD, and that means I can move quickly anyway. And, I donÆt go to Empire much unless itÆs with a fleet (or jumpclone) so itÆs not like the extra travel time would hurt me much.
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:36:00 - [16] Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 09/11/2006 21:37:22 Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn I love all the people who say this change will "change nothing, as its just instas as we already have them, but less lag" This is quite obviously wrong. Now, even in 0.0 with bubbles, those bubbles are useless. warp to a belt off to the side, then insta to gate. Its not a replacement for instas, its the ultimate insta, from all directions, for every gate, every time. So much for protecting your space. The enemy already doesnt have to plan much to invade...they can just trickle in and log off. This only makes it worse...no chance to catch peeps at the gate. Catch them at the far side of the gate... or put more than one bubble on the gate. Remember, a bubble 40km behind the gate will pull guys out of warp from both sides.... you just have to get more strategic with your bubble placement... many gates are surrounded by warpable objects...bubbling all of them for warp in would be nearly impossible. medium bubble on the gate would still work on slower ships, since you stop at the edge of the bubble...but this doesn't always catch jump in people. Today, people who know what they are doing, when they see the enemies in local, warp to say, a planet near the gate, and scan for the bubble. if bubble is there, they warp to something way off line of the gate to gate warp in, then warp in at 15km...a interceptor or a vagabond can make it easily this short distance...thats why you use the bubbles to pull them 40km from gate or so. warp to 0 is an insta from every warpable object to every other warpable object.....still seems a little much to me. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Maestro Ulv Phaze-9	Posted - 2006.11.09 21:49:00 - [17] Originally by: Diss Champ People with freighters will kill me for saying this but- If the problem with giving everyone 0km is simply travel time, one could make warp time a bigger part of travel time. I.E. scale linearly up the time EVERYTHING spends in warp enough to make the difference in travel time This already happens. A freighter warps far slower than other ships, smaller ones at least. Personaly I love warp to zero, but then again I have instas anyway for lowsec or the regular freight travels so all it does to me is loses some DB lag. A good thing if it works. Bring it out or dont, makes no difference to me or anyone else if they bother to make instas. As for spoiling the game, I dont see it myself. The game changes all the time, it has since its inception. Some changes are popular with some, some aint with others. We delt with them then and we will deal with them again. I guess its really down to if it actualy kills the lag or not. They said it was Drones, they limited them to five and we still had lag. They said it was agents, they moved some and we still got lag. Way back it was the mines, now its also blobbing. I think its a simple fact that we will always have lag in some form due to the nature of the game and the new players coming into it. Ill just play the game till the game stops being fun. I'm not bored, I'm merely in the Queue.
Becham	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:02:00 - [18] Warp to 0 goes in tomorrow? Or was that just some sort of metaphor?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Becham Warp to 0 goes in tomorrow? Or was that just some sort of metaphor? I do believe he was being rhetorical -----------------------------------------------
MECTO Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.09 22:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Varis There is a game I used to play - it was called eve: the second genesis.... good post and i agree with every word of it. kali is eve for kids - too easy It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Imation Sturm	Posted - 2006.11.09 23:26:00 - [21] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 09/11/2006 21:37:22 Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn I love all the people who say this change will "change nothing, as its just instas as we already have them, but less lag" This is quite obviously wrong. Now, even in 0.0 with bubbles, those bubbles are useless. warp to a belt off to the side, then insta to gate. Its not a replacement for instas, its the ultimate insta, from all directions, for every gate, every time. So much for protecting your space. The enemy already doesnt have to plan much to invade...they can just trickle in and log off. This only makes it worse...no chance to catch peeps at the gate. Catch them at the far side of the gate... or put more than one bubble on the gate. Remember, a bubble 40km behind the gate will pull guys out of warp from both sides.... you just have to get more strategic with your bubble placement... many gates are surrounded by warpable objects...bubbling all of them for warp in would be nearly impossible. medium bubble on the gate would still work on slower ships, since you stop at the edge of the bubble...but this doesn't always catch jump in people. Today, people who know what they are doing, when they see the enemies in local, warp to say, a planet near the gate, and scan for the bubble. if bubble is there, they warp to something way off line of the gate to gate warp in, then warp in at 15km...a interceptor or a vagabond can make it easily this short distance...thats why you use the bubbles to pull them 40km from gate or so. warp to 0 is an insta from every warpable object to every other warpable object.....still seems a little much to me. So your mad because you don't have a 100% chance of getting someone at a gate camp? Cry me a river.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.09 23:35:00 - [22] If the arguement that because people can do it now it is okay, what next? Macro mining button on the UI? Just because people can do it does not make it good for the game, does it? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Nadalia Minmatar	Posted - 2006.11.10 00:02:00 - [23] Anyone remember the time when you could turn on your MWD right before you came out of warp, thus ensuring an insta-jump? I don't think I ever played this slow, thoughtful game you are talking about.
Sonlatur Minmatar Matari Raiders	Posted - 2006.11.10 00:03:00 - [24] Edited by: Sonlatur on 10/11/2006 00:04:08 I agree with the OP. Although i have to say that i would like a Warp to 0 approach much better than the insta stuff that we are having now (probably because i dont use them). But no Warp to 0 and no instas would be best i think. Sure it would change things, but the game would get better imho. It was intended to work like that in the first place actually. Travel time is an inconvenience, sure. But with catering to inconveniences, many of us earn their ISK. In fact, mining is probably the biggest inconvenience. Or is it running missions? So i dont really understand the arguments "but travelling is boring" - well, so is mining, so is running missins, so is camping gates. We always decide between trade offs for better prices/earning or convenience. And security, instas or Warp to 0 dont provide anyways - because on the outgoing gate, i know what is waiting for me (the incoming gate is the unfair death trap which needs to be changed). All they do is make the universe smaller. -- "Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible."
Jenny Spitfire Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated	Posted - 2006.11.10 00:15:00 - [25] CCP could have given me Jump to X. Functionality, it is the same as Warp to 0km. IMHO, warp to 0km is inappropriate for this game. --------- Faction Warfare Begins Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Lorette Gallente Grandma's WIth Guns	Posted - 2006.11.10 00:32:00 - [26] I think you could keep 15km warp-ins, by adding a simple feature. When you warp-to a gate in low/0.0 a message will come up saying 'additional cosmic signature/s detected' and youll be able to cancel the warp if dont want to chance it. Campers wont be out of a job, cov-ops wont show up (as they are stealthed..duh) and the campers can wait off in a safe spot, then just warp to the cov-op's and initiate the gank. Still gives the player warping in a better shot to make it through but also a decent chance they wont if they are in a slow ship. Anyway i think it would be a good idea, after all most people would probably turn it off and fly blind anyway.
Esaka Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.10 00:41:00 - [27] Originally by: Avon If the arguement that because people can do it now it is okay, what next? Macro mining button on the UI? Just because people can do it does not make it good for the game, does it? So when did instas became illegal and reason for ban? -------------------------------------- Agent & Mission-Info: http://www.eveinfo.com Evewide Market-Info: http://eve-central.com/
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.10 00:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Samuel Freedom There are pro's and cons to 'warp to 0' (reducing lag the biggest pro IMO). There has been lots of threads like this already, I don't see the point, as it is going ahead ..... another warp 0 thread wont change anything, it's all been said before. yes .. the removing strain from the DB is one of the biggest pro's for warp to 0 .... but beside of "more convience" there's no other pro ... i doubt the OP would be sad if only bookmarks 100k around a gate are removed, and the warp to 15 is the closest warp to option. if i can trade database caused lag for either "more convienence" due to the ultimate insta (warp to 0) or for "more preparation and planning" due to warp to 15 as only form of travel ... i knew what i would choose - the second one ... or do you think playing a game on easy mode is much fun?? ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.10 01:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Imation Sturm Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Edited by: Emperor D''Hoffryn on 09/11/2006 21:37:22 Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn I love all the people who say this change will "change nothing, as its just instas as we already have them, but less lag" This is quite obviously wrong. Now, even in 0.0 with bubbles, those bubbles are useless. warp to a belt off to the side, then insta to gate. Its not a replacement for instas, its the ultimate insta, from all directions, for every gate, every time. So much for protecting your space. The enemy already doesnt have to plan much to invade...they can just trickle in and log off. This only makes it worse...no chance to catch peeps at the gate. Catch them at the far side of the gate... or put more than one bubble on the gate. Remember, a bubble 40km behind the gate will pull guys out of warp from both sides.... you just have to get more strategic with your bubble placement... many gates are surrounded by warpable objects...bubbling all of them for warp in would be nearly impossible. medium bubble on the gate would still work on slower ships, since you stop at the edge of the bubble...but this doesn't always catch jump in people. Today, people who know what they are doing, when they see the enemies in local, warp to say, a planet near the gate, and scan for the bubble. if bubble is there, they warp to something way off line of the gate to gate warp in, then warp in at 15km...a interceptor or a vagabond can make it easily this short distance...thats why you use the bubbles to pull them 40km from gate or so. warp to 0 is an insta from every warpable object to every other warpable object.....still seems a little much to me. So your mad because you don't have a 100% chance of getting someone at a gate camp? Cry me a river. I think he's mad because he won't have a 1% chance of bubbling someone at a gate. Because heres the thing: Bubbles only work if they are on a direct tangent with the warping ship and the object being warped to (i.e., between the place the ship is warping from and the place its warping to). This is true right now. In otherwords, if I warp off to a random safe spot BEFORE warping to the gate, the bubble wont work. Not at all. And it'll be 100% impossible for it to work, as the bubble-owner has no idea where my safe spot is, so can't line up their bubble. BUT, right now, people have instas. In your average region-set of instas, you'll only have gate to gates. In other words, if I want to use my "warp to 0km" feature, I have to be warping from the gate- making it possible for my ship to get bubbled. If I choose to warp to a SS and then to the gate (thus missing the bubble) I'll have to slowboat the 15kms. With warp-to-0km, I can happily warp to any SS or object I like and still insta to the gate. Having a bubble does absolutely nothing to me, so thee enemy need'nt of bothered. -----------------------------------------------
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.11.10 02:18:00 - [30] Edited by: CharlieMurphy on 10/11/2006 02:20:04 I have instas for 99% of everywhere i go in this game I have instas for about 2/3 of the entire universe map It wont make any difference to me if they implement warp to 0 or not because ill be warping to 0 anyway for all you people complaining about it just be happy that its going to ease the load on the server and perhaps a little of the lag will go away thats a good thing for us all right ? if some pirates gameplay is ruined because of it then for me personally thats a price worth paying for a game that doesnt lag and as so often said on this forum they will learn to adapt natural selection etc etc... personally i really hope warp to 0 is in kali cause ill be glad to get rid of my vast collection of bms and ill be happy knowing that the game will be better for it
Natasha Kerensky The Company Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:15:00 - [31] Guys guys guys, the only thing "Warp to 0" is going to do is make travel time in EVE faster. It will NOT make you any safer. Any 0.0 veteran will tell you that real pirates camp BOTH sides of the gate. Anyone who thinks "Warp to 0" is going to keep them safe in 0.0 is going to get torn apart like snot through a tissue. Im really looking forawrd to Warp to 0 since it will allow players like me. who can only have about an hour a day to play EVE, to get more done in our game sessions Peace in the middle east -Nat
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:26:00 - [32] Edited by: Varis on 10/11/2006 05:27:22 Originally by: Natasha Kerensky Guys guys guys, the only thing "Warp to 0" is going to do is make travel time in EVE faster. It will NOT make you any safer. Any 0.0 veteran will tell you that real pirates camp BOTH sides of the gate. Anyone who thinks "Warp to 0" is going to keep them safe in 0.0 is going to get torn apart like snot through a tissue. Im really looking forawrd to Warp to 0 since it will allow players like me. who can only have about an hour a day to play EVE, to get more done in our game sessions Umm.. OK. are you telling me that a person with no instas, slow boating 15km, is JUST AS SAFE as someone who insta-jumps/docks? Instas are a "work around". They shouldn't be there in the first place. "Its not a bug, its a feature".. yeah (grr.. made me post again when i didn't want to) Originally by: Avon A note about "Warp to 0km won't change anything because people already have instas". Well, frankly, they shouldn't have them. Arguing that warp to 0 is okay because people can already do it is bogus. Instas are a broken game mechanic which cause huge server strain. Removing the server strain doesn't magically stop the game mechanic being fundamentally broken. Look back on the posts on the subject of instas, back to before they were as common as they are now, before they contributed a fraction of the load they do now. Those posts give great reasons why instas should not exist, and apply equally to warp to 0. Travel times would not increase without instas, because people can't magically create time. What would happen is that travel distances would decrease. People like instas because they like the safety net they provide. People like instas because they are afraid of playing the game. They want a tool to avoid parts they don't like, not travel but interaction with other players. They want that tool to have no drawbacks, no 'cost', no compromise. They want to avoid having to use the indended tools provided by the game (Those that require you to actually fit your ship appropriately). They want to gain an advantage with no penalty. These are the people Warp to 0km panders to.
MECTO Xenobytes Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:12:00 - [33] Originally by: Varis "Its not a bug, its a feature".. yeah same as local It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it? Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:22:00 - [34] Originally by: General Xerxes If what you say is true, Instas would have made everything but the biggest ships obselete, but they haven't, so having a less server crippling version of them won't make any difference. What you fail to see or are just ignoring is that instas at least took time to make, and you couldn't have them for every gate and station from every possible vector you might want to use them on. With Warp to 0, you will have the 'perfect insta' everywhere. It takes an already gameplay undermining ability and trumps it with completely removing the player randomizing element. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender What is your opinion?
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 09:19:00 - [35] Just realised as well - if the warp to 0 gets implemented, then all speed modules are basically nerfed as well - instead people will be using those lovely inertia stabilisers to get more agile... Catching even slow industrials on the "otherside" will become near impossible as well.. so basically there will be no way to stop a ship that wants to get through.
Natasha Kerensky The Company Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.10 09:48:00 - [36] Edited by: Natasha Kerensky on 10/11/2006 09:53:31 Originally by: Varis Umm.. OK. are you telling me that a person with no instas, slow boating 15km, is JUST AS SAFE as someone who insta-jumps/docks? Instas are a "work around". They shouldn't be there in the first place. What im saying is people who use instas have a false sense of security. "Warp to 0" will not save you when you pop out on the other side of a gate camp and there is a gang waiting for you to decloak. With the additiion of Force Recon ships and Interdictors, insta uers secuirty has decreased even more. And while they were never intended to be in the game in the first placed, the only REAL benefit instas have is decreased travel time, which overall is a great benefit to the game. Like I stated before, some people have a limited amount of time to play EVE, decreasing travel times will allow more players to accomplish more during thier game sessions please dont roll your eyes at me
Apertotes Nuevos Horizontes O X I D E	Posted - 2006.11.10 09:48:00 - [37] Originally by: Varis Just realised as well - if the warp to 0 gets implemented, then all speed modules are basically nerfed as well - instead people will be using those lovely inertia stabilisers to get more agile... Catching even slow industrials on the "otherside" will become near impossible as well.. so basically there will be no way to stop a ship that wants to get through. aint it great? suddendly, PVP in EVE has turned consentual!!! btw, this means more WoW kiddies will play this game, which turns into more server load, and thus, more lag, so we are back again at the same point. we'll have the same lag, but a censored version of our favorite game.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:14:00 - [38] Well, seeing as most inhabitants of 0.0 have insta's anyway and are creating huge server load, it will make little diference other than help reduce lag for the game. Sound's good to me Let's see who's standing at the end when the dust settle's
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:38:00 - [39] No offence Varis, but you've only focused on half the story, if that. There's an entire world of strategy you've completely overlooked, and that is What happens when you jump into a system. I don't actually have a Pro/Against position for 0km warping, but just came across this post and felt it was only telling half the story at best. Originally by: Varis There is no longer any real reason to pick smaller lighter ships - only the biggest ship in class is really viable. When you jump into an interdictor/bubble/interceptor camp, there's only one thing that will save you. Speed. Originally by: Varis Why bother flying cruisers when a fleet of battleships will get there just as fast and do more damage? There's a whole plethora of reasons why you'd still want to bring Cruisers over BS. You can't seriously be thinking that "Time it takes to arrive to the fight" is the sole determining factor for what ship to bring. Cruisers are cheaper, faster, smaller signature, etc etc etc. The list goes on. Originally by: Varis Why bother using a frigate when a cruiser will tackle even better and get there just as fast? A frigate will always tackle better than a Cruiser, it's faster and has a better lock time. A lot of tackling involves speed and lock time. Interceptors will still arrive faster, given their increased warp speed. Frigates will still be the best class for tackling, that Cruisers and other classes can arrive at the same time wont change their fundamental tactical roles. Why? Because they're determined by a LOT more than simply how fast they can mobilise. Originally by: Varis With instas (or warp to 0) I can travel as far as i want with no real preparation. Not at all. Sure you don't need instas, but your comment negates a whole lot of 0.0 realities. Interceptor/Bubble/Dictor camps will still catch the unprepared and the slow. Originally by: Varis If the enemy has a bunch of ships trying to block the gate, I can just fly right past them (especially in empire where there is no way of using bubbles, interdictors, or similar) It's not "Especially" in empire, it's "Only" in Empire that this can happen. You can't fly past Dictor bubbles or Mobile Warp Disruptors. Originally by: Varis There will be little way of catching anyone Get them on the other side of the gate. Tackling 101. Originally by: Varis the "speed" of a ship not count. ...Of course it does. Speed and speed alone will save you from a Dictor camp you jump into. ____
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:41:00 - [40] nooey ... regarding the jump-in thingy .. have you been on the testserver? have you tried the new inertia stabs - fitted on a hauler, a cruiser, a bs, a BC and so on?? then you know why the jump-in thingy won't work that good if you can't use an interdictor (read: low-sec) ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
DeckardIRL Gallente Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:45:00 - [41] As posted in this Thread You are missing the whole point and also... You will miss bubbles and gate camps... and how about the otherside of the gate... your BS gonna warp off as fast as a frig? Stupid post no offence... the danger is now on the other side of the gate... will you see t hat coming? Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.10 11:53:00 - [42] My point still remains. Varis seemed to overlook the notion that there's two chances to catch someone: In warp to a gate, and as they jump into system. Warp to 0km only affects one of those. It sounds like changes to nanofibers affects the other one, to an extent. Anyways, I'm just saying, catching people as they jump in is entirely unaffected by the 0km change. As such, I felt the Varis was overstating people's inability to catch their prey due to these changes (And these changes alone. It appears that other changes will have an effect on that) Like I said, I don't really have an opinion one way or the other, only posted because I half know Varis and the thread caught my eye and I felt it was a bit one sided. ____
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:11:00 - [43] If removing the millions of gate to gate bookmarks improves network latency, and stops the screen from freezing during battles, then it outweighs any negative aspect. From what I've seen over the past several days on this topic, the biggest complainers are the pirates. Obviously, many of you have forgotten that you can follow targets through a gate. That's where you'll get them. Stop camping, and start hunting.
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:12:00 - [44] If removing the millions of gate to gate bookmarks improves network latency, and stops the screen from freezing during battles, then it outweighs any negative aspect. From what I've seen over the past several days on this topic, the biggest complainers are the pirates. Obviously, many of you have forgotten that you can follow targets through a gate. That's where you'll get them. Stop camping so much, and start hunting.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:17:00 - [45] autopilot should still run at 15km, player clicking at 0km, its exactly how bm's/autopilot works but will remove millions of bookmarks. However there is one thing which I will cry over, human error and dumbness, people that in eve now that don't have bm's and people that use wrong bm's are food for me. Euro Empire/0.0 Gang PvP Recruitment
Guano Cakes	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:27:00 - [46] There's this thing for catching people who warp from gate to gate > a small bubble. For people warping in from other angles, you use > a medium bubble (or two, which almost covers EVERY warp in vector when set up properly). And nevermind that someone has to know where the bubble is to know where to warp in from, eh? You'll just have to spend a few more mil, and train up your skills a bit more to use the better ones and ensure that you catch anyone who DARES try to use that warp-gate! Oh, did you hear that large bubbles are on SiSi? Their radius actually encompasses the warp gate... yeah. Go whack yourself to that. As for empire? Well tough luck, empire is supposed to be safer, fit an armor tank and some sensor boosters and tackle them from the other side if you want to risk it. Ask Armoured Assassins how to catch people jumping into low-sec systems if you need some advice, they popped my condor the other day, with a sentry tanking brutix, before I could enter warp from decloaking (while using an insta, for that matter). LOL the safety of Empire, indeed! To end this post: I do sympathize with those of you who experienced "The Stone Age" of EVE. I've seen many an MMO grow up and change and evolve, but they typically have changed for the better. All I have to say is don't be afraid of change, and try to hold the good up over the bad. Roll with the punches, so to speak.
Guano Cakes	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:32:00 - [47] Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte nooey ... regarding the jump-in thingy .. have you been on the testserver? have you tried the new inertia stabs - fitted on a hauler, a cruiser, a bs, a BC and so on?? then you know why the jump-in thingy won't work that good if you can't use an interdictor (read: low-sec) Hi, thanks for bringing up the inertial stabs. I understand they are a bit overpowered ATM on test, and strongly doubt they will be released in their current state. The current ones simply increase agility as it should be (IMO). Being able to turn and accelerate faster: GOOD. Being able to do both while reaching interdictor speed on a battleship: wtf. They were simply being under-used because nanofibers gave almost as much of an agility boost while also greatly increasing top speed... seems they've just made Super-nanos now. Bleh.
Athena Starfire Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:35:00 - [48] Its so nice, threads and threads of whining pirates and campers, may not be able to pop everyone and wreck the enjoyment of peaceful players...SO SAD!! *THANK YOU CCP!!* -- Proud Winner of the "Carebear of the Year" Award
Apertotes Nuevos Horizontes O X I D E	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:38:00 - [49] Originally by: Guano Cakes I've seen many an MMO grow up and change and evolve, but they typically have changed for the better. yeah, UO, DAoC and SGW come to mind.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:40:00 - [50] Edited by: Nooey on 10/11/2006 12:40:54 Uh...to those idiots who think Varis is whiny pirate or some skill-less camper, get a clue. She's part of Jericho Fraction, a corp known galaxy wide for NOT SHOOTING NEUTRALS. Not only that but the guerilla-style hit and run tactics commonly employed by JF are just about the directe opposite to camping tactics. Varis brings the points up for what she percieves is the good of the game, not for any other reason. Seriously, people do bring points up for reasons other than to serve their own gameplay. Stupid flamers who throw pathetic kneejerk comments like the one slightly above need to be shot, tbh. ____
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:43:00 - [51] My drones got nerfed in order to reduce lag...well that did'nt work too well, this warp to 0...I fail to see how this is going to help. People will still need bookmarks, to rich roid belts, SS, POS locations, loot from missions, etc etc. So all warp to 0 will do is? What, do away with some of the BM's but not all of them? I got 10isk saying, it aint going to help any, lag will get worse, as gate camps go back to the old ways...6 small warp bubbles cause alot of client lag. Loot from victims, just floating, "waiting for the hauler to show up." And drones out on standby. Now I am all for this warp to 0 thing, but only if it works like CCP says it will, if it dont, then wensday they should reverse that portion of the patch and remove it from the game. I think all these so called fixes to the lag problems, that have been added to the game should be removed, and the game restored back to the way it was. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Securion Wolfheart Caldari Semper Fidelis Industries	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:44:00 - [52] Originally by: Voculus If removing the millions of gate to gate bookmarks improves network latency, and stops the screen from freezing during battles, then it outweighs any negative aspect. From what I've seen over the past several days on this topic, the biggest complainers are the pirates. Obviously, many of you have forgotten that you can follow targets through a gate. That's where you'll get them. Stop camping so much, and start hunting. Well spoken. I cant belive how boring lives ppl must have if camping gates and killing noobs is the only thing they can/wanna do? There are so many more aspects of EVE. A whole universe to play in and they just sit at those gates...? Insta-popping indys, laughing and eating popcorn... safe from harm.... wtf....? Comon ppl, you gatecampers belong in disneyland. Real pirates puts some effort into it and take some pride in wtf they are doing. Yea i know, you feel "uber" and powerful when you get those easy kills, with no effort put into it whatsoever. I could easily do the same thing and have my eve-mail full of killmails. But im 34 years old, a father of three, and i just cant picture myself trying so desperate to get that kinda confirmation. I would feel like a 12-yearold gangrapist. Respect to the pirates that make my game interesting. But you gatecampers...? L O L. **** you all. -----====----- Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done.
Daftex Muleson Minmatar UNITED KINGDOM MAYHEM	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:51:00 - [53] Originally by: Natasha Kerensky Im really looking forawrd to Warp to 0 since it will allow players like me. who can only have about an hour a day to play EVE, to get more done in our game sessions You're lucky....I usually only get enough time to log on and set the next skill training atm! For my 2 peneth, it seems to me the only REAL pro for warp to 0 amongst all those listed in the threads, is to solve lag issues. Isn't that looking at the prob from the wrong angle though? Surely, the correct answer is to remove the ability to bookmark a spot in space which allows "instas" and causes the lag in the first place. My guess is that the CCP code-monkeys chose the Warp to 0 fix as the easiest option for solving the lag issue.
Tonkin Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.10 12:57:00 - [54] im half and half with this. love the idea of warping to 0 with the cost of killing a few peeps. but with the wapr to 0 peeps will mess up thinking they will get away in low sec THANKLS TO BUBBLES people mess up. but if it brings back 300 v 300 fleet battles with instas dead im all for it. more ways to kill peeps in low sec, belts planets or the reciving gate. cepters you wont be able to catch as usual but slower boats yea. ive killed peeps on reciving gates. Sig removed, you sig was too ubber to display and ccp had no choice but to nerf it - CCP(NERFBAT)
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:33:00 - [55] Originally by: Nooey Edited by: Nooey on 10/11/2006 12:40:54 Uh...to those idiots who think Varis is whiny pirate or some skill-less camper, get a clue. She's part of Jericho Fraction, a corp known galaxy wide for NOT SHOOTING NEUTRALS. Not only that but the guerilla-style hit and run tactics commonly employed by JF are just about the directe opposite to camping tactics. Varis brings the points up for what she percieves is the good of the game, not for any other reason. Seriously, people do bring points up for reasons other than to serve their own gameplay. Stupid flamers who throw pathetic kneejerk comments like the one slightly above need to be shot, tbh. Thanks Nooey - and yeah, I dont pirate, I dont shoot neutrals, and my preferred mode of combat is mobile. You would think that I'd prefer this "warp to 0". Interdictors will catch the unwary - that wont change. But with the improved scanning (and even today) its usually quite easy to see if there are interdictors on a gate before I ever get there. If i am being chased i'll now be able to very easily insta out of the system from another gate. Currently i need some extra time to be able to cross the final 15km (or less) of moving via an incorrect BM. With the ability to insta to ANY gate/station in a system, the job just got harder by an order of magniture for any interdictor pilot, as well as supremely easy for everyone else to run. The deciding factor is usually the setup and cost. There are some cruisers that are quite capable of getting very fast lock and intrinsicly have better armour and shield than frigates, If I'm assulting a position i'd rather have the extra armour. And there are a lot of ways to use cruisers as "heavy tacklers" already. Sure, many frigates/ceptors are better (I usually fly them anyway), but I normally call them flying coffins as if any large ship looks at me sideways I get popped fast :) Get them on the other side - umm, have you see the inertia stabilisers? Make a battlecruiser handle like a fast frigate! They are very scary. Basically this change could potentially make the game much faster and more fluid - its a very big change - which will encourage people to form blobs even more (to kill enemy in the even shorter time you have to cath them) and make any kind of static defense that much less useful. Sure, I can adapt etc etc - but I honestly believe the overall changes are much for the worst.
Kaptein Trefot Caldari Calista Industries	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:40:00 - [56] Edited by: Kaptein Trefot on 10/11/2006 13:41:50 I hope the OP knows that there is something called instas that function pretty much like warping to 0km. Without instas or warp to 0km 0.0 would be a lonely lonely place.
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:46:00 - [57] Yes i know there are instas. I think they are a broken machanic which should be bug-fixed out of existance.
Kaptein Trefot Caldari Calista Industries	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:51:00 - [58] Originally by: Varis Yes i know there are instas. I think they are a broken machanic which should be bug-fixed out of existance. Exactly waht good would come out of that? Besides less lag caused by a smaller playerbase that is.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.11.10 13:57:00 - [59] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Becham Warp to 0 goes in tomorrow? Or was that just some sort of metaphor? I do believe he was being rhetorical I've been feeling this way for a long while ever since the automatic 40% insurance came in. Alot of changes these days seem to just dumb the game down to make it easier instead of creating solutions where players would be forced to think and make compromises to get their ideal situation. This new warp to 0km change is just another step down that road. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Ginger Magician Minmatar OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2006.11.10 14:00:00 - [60] Well u know there is one positive aspect to this change if warp to 0km comes in it could be that most pvpers in Eve will leave for new pastures and there wont be anymore lag problem.Those that stick around and carbear for a while will see lag disappear and eventually CCP might realise their mistake and/or increase server capacity to handle instas and warp to 15km once more
MMXMMX Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2006.11.10 14:08:00 - [61] Edited by: MMXMMX on 10/11/2006 14:09:15 Welcome in the future and the reality of 2007 . When there ar more and more people go to play your game and the old people ar going to complain then u know u make progres :) Good job CPP . I wil be whery happy to delete all my instas so we can reduce lag vore all people that play the game or wil go play the game in the future Keep on the good work . 500 - Internal Error The server was unable to process your request. Support personel has been notified, no further action is needed.
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.10 14:42:00 - [62] one argument that pops up again and again why "warp to 0m" is t3u ubersolution for everything is ... IT WILL REDUCE LAG uhm... it will only reduce lag when CCP DELETES all the existing bookmarks. if the gazillions of bookmarks are still available to the players there won't change anything ... so CCP HAS to delete (allmost) all bookmarks. but when CCP deletes all those bookmarks "a warp to x km" solution will reduce the lag the same way as a warp to 0m solution. so you can't really "create" a difference between both solutions if you use this argument. it seems CCP is on the best way to choose the easiest and not the best solution. ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.

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