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A Counterpoint to Warp To Zero: Extending Prewarp

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Vishnej Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.10 03:09:00 - [1] Right now, when the warp command is issued, the following happens: Your ship begins flying directly towards the warp target. At 75ish % topspeed radial velocity towards the target, your ship plays the warp animation, and is for all combat purposes off the map. What I propose is to add an additional stage. When the warp command is issued: Your ship begins flying directly towards the warp target. At 75ish % topspeed radial velocity towards the target, your ship enters prewarp. In prewarp: Your ship's maximum speed is increased by 100% + 100m/s for balance reasons. Your ship's signature radius is increased by 100%. Your ship remains on the map for combat reasons for the duration of prewarp Capacitor for the warp is charged at the beginning of prewarp. Prewarp lasts for exactly 2km. That is, when you have come 2km closer to the warp target, you enter normal warp. This extends the warpout time by a fraction of a second for interceptors to a good 10 seconds for freighters. This: Makes sniper warfare a bit more counterable with something other than more snipers Forces people to commit to combat more often Can greatly extend the engagement envelope of normal combat, which Warp To Zero greatly decreased in lowsec Empire (though bubbles / dictors can simply be used in 0.0) Cancels out the major effects of the slight lag in the locking system during gate-to-gate combat, preserving the value of locktime Makes prealigning a lot less overpowered Creates a reason to use speed modules rather than agility modules Is not cheatable with resource-intensive bookmarks Nerfs the standard borderline-exploit where freighters are webbed so they don't even have to accelerate up to warpspeed. It also slows down freighters a bit, which will be sped up too fast by WTZ for empire work This change would be for anyone who's spent 2 hours trying to catch a well-bookmarked, well-trained, frequently moving, always-prealigning Eagle who wanted to tease your home system, and have thrown double digits of interceptors, interdictors, battleships, a covert, everything at them, without being able to catch them. Expertise should not make such a ship completely invulnerable - and adding 3 or 4 seconds of targettability between his warp command and his warp would give at least a small possibility of catching him by a dozen pilots of his equal in experience. It would benefit the pirates, the antipirates, and the 0.0 defenders immensely - the ones who know what they're doing and have the forces, rather than those who have time to taunt people. It's just too easy to run away with WTZ (even ignoring WCS) - it has been for a long time before WTZ. And speed has meant practically nothing compared to agility. What do you guys think?
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.10 03:19:00 - [2] Any change that nerfs aligning would have vast consequences in all sorts of combat, not just in terms of travel. The idea itself might actually be pretty good, but all the various instances where aligning is used would have to be analyzed before an informed decision could be made. Nerfing aligning, for one, would vastly change fleet battles. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Trem Sinval Sinval Enterprises	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:41:00 - [3] Prewarp would destroy any hope of getting away, and here's why. For a freighter, assume you don't totally suck with skills. Nominal top speed is ~100 m/s, warp at 75 m/s, takes nearly 30 seconds to warp as it is. Under prewarp, that same freighter takes 30 seconds to prewarp, and then takes another 6.67 seconds to get to warp, meanwhile the cap has already been charged, and the ship is nearly 2,000m in sig radius. If you can't get a target lock on a 2,000m target in 6.67 seconds (let alone 30), you're just not trying hard enough. Wait for him to get to prewarp, (you'll know because he jumps ahead), and scramble. Similar situation for haulers/BSes. Haulers take 15 seconds to get up to warp. Nominal speed is ~150 m/s (not really, but we're speculating). Haulers spend 5 seconds in prewarp. They're nearly BS sized during those 5 seconds; just wait for him to hit prewarp, let the cap be charged, and then scramble him. Oh, gee, look at that, you have no cap to run your tank, oops, POP. BSes take 20 seconds, nominal is 140 m/s, they spend 5.25 seconds in prewarp, wait for warp, scramble, no cap, POP. BSes become nearly dreadnought-sized. ---- I see immense benefits for the pirates and campers (and the snipers) who sit in their stabbed BS'; they'll never have to think about losing another ship ever again, because he knows that if they try to warp away, not only will his fraction-of-a-second targetting get them, he knows their sig radius will EXPLODE, and it will really be fractions-of-a-fraction-of-a-second. Quote: Expertise should not make such a ship completely invulnerable So skill and experience should no longer be factors of playing EVE? - Trem
Vishnej Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.10 04:58:00 - [4] Based on the formula: (10000/x)/(asinh(y)) x = scan res of your ship y = sig radius of target asinh(y) = ln ( y + sqrt ( y ^ 2 + 1 ) ) Doubling the sig radius of the target decreases the locktime by something like 9-15%, depending on sig radius. A freighter only gets about 9% decrease in locktime over something twice the size of a freighter.
Vishnej Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:04:00 - [5] And a freighter isn't meant to run away from things, simply put.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:24:00 - [6] I like this idea, but apply it to Transwarp (my idea for a new interstellar travel method replacing the silly gate system). Many ships take awhile already to warp. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender What is your opinion?
Ephemeron Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:36:00 - [7] Edited by: Ephemeron on 10/11/2006 05:45:06 I like the reasons behind this idea, but idea itself is unnecessarily complex The simplest implementation would be to have a timer for "fastest way to get in warp". It could be different for each ship class. Such as: 3 seconds for battleships, 2 for cruisers, 1 for frigs. That means, if you click warp and you reach all the necessary conditions for warp before that timer expires, then you still can't warp until that timer expires.
Vishnej Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Ephemeron Edited by: Ephemeron on 10/11/2006 05:45:06 I like the reasons behind this idea, but idea itself is unnecessarily complex The simplest implementation would be to have a timer for "fastest way to get in warp". It could be different for each ship class. Such as: 3 seconds for battleships, 2 for cruisers, 1 for frigs. That means, if you click warp and you reach all the necessary conditions for warp before that timer expires, then you still can't warp until that timer expires. With Warp To Zero implemented, that leaves no reason for speed mods for anything but tacklers.
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.10 06:55:00 - [9] Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 10/11/2006 06:54:56 Originally by: Trem Sinval Haulers take 15 seconds to get up to warp. Nominal speed is ~150 m/s (not really, but we're speculating). Haulers spend 5 seconds in prewarp. They're nearly BS sized during those 5 seconds; just wait for him to hit prewarp, let the cap be charged, and then scramble him. Oh, gee, look at that, you have no cap to run your tank, oops, POP. BSes take 20 seconds, nominal is 140 m/s, they spend 5.25 seconds in prewarp, wait for warp, scramble, no cap, POP. BSes become nearly dreadnought-sized. only before kali uhmm .. if you were on the testserver you'd have seen such a nice module called inertia stabs ... they make takling at least really difficult (under laggy conditions allmost impossible) ... tried it with a claw + 20k scram vs. a bestower with 4 inertia stabs ... the first try i got lucky as there was some (unnoticebale) lag [we were only thinking "wtf? why?"] ... second time he was able to lock me just in time before i warped off - with a bestower that had to change alignement for 30¦ or so ... we didn't test a scenario where your ship is directly aligned to a warp-out-object ... but i estimate the worst ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
DiuxDium Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.11.10 07:23:00 - [10] What is so hard about using interdictors. They're in the game for a reason. This change does nothing, other than giving noobs the balls to venture into 0.0 and lowsec. Which in the end is just more targets. So enough crying about this issue. I welcome it with open arms and interdictors.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.10 07:26:00 - [11] Originally by: DiuxDium What is so hard about using interdictors. They're in the game for a reason. This change does nothing, other than giving noobs the balls to venture into 0.0 and lowsec. Which in the end is just more targets. So enough crying about this issue. I welcome it with open arms and interdictors. Let me know when they work in 100% of Eve. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender What is your opinion?
Vishnej Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.11.10 07:52:00 - [12] Originally by: DiuxDium What is so hard about using interdictors. They're in the game for a reason. This change does nothing, other than giving noobs the balls to venture into 0.0 and lowsec. Which in the end is just more targets. So enough crying about this issue. I welcome it with open arms and interdictors. It's not whining, it's presenting a change that addresses some longstanding issues, and mitigates the potential negative effects of a new change that a lot of people are whining about. The issues were there with instas (and especially tactical BMs), WTZ only makes them more obvious for the average player.
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.10 08:07:00 - [13] Why not allow ships in warp to be intercepted. Make it a gang/fleet skill. If a ship in your gang/fleet observes a ship warping out (is on grid when it happens) then everyone else in the gang gets a moving BM for intercepting that ship while in warp and disrupting it (probably need a new module here). The warp speed of ships would suddenly make a big difference, as would the positioning of ships tactically throughout a system. Set it up so you have to intercept while still traveling the same direction as the target (need time to disrupt the tunnel, can't just blow through it) from the other gate. Just a thought. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
Vishnej Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.17 22:14:00 - [14] So what does everyone think of the concept now that WTZ is in place, and BMs are out? PS: Not necromancy, just a defib.
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.12.17 22:18:00 - [15] why dont you lamers out there with no skill actually learn how to play EVE before flooding the forums with your "fixits", wich are thinly vieled attempts to make everything easy. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.- -nerf Missles-
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.12.17 22:18:00 - [16] I am sorry but no. Current problems with aligning have allready been mentioned Most importantly.. why in the hell does WTZ need a counter? ========================= Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.12.17 22:31:00 - [17] I don't understand the problem you are trying to solve here. In fact, you are creating many. We already have a system where big ships go into warp more slowly, simply because they take longer to align and accelerate. And you also want to balloon their signature radius? I can think of a great special effect for it too: a big bullseye target with a giant red center. Right now the balance is okay - so once again, what problem are you trying to solve? I think we should be told.
Allantia FW Inc Kith of Venal	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:01:00 - [18] Edited by: Allantia on 17/12/2006 23:03:01 Way as well forget it now, it'll never happen. It's a huge nerf to basically anything larger than a cruiser, and most importantly a huge nerf to fleet combat. You'll get a bit more non-consentual PvP around gates, but it will make everyone all the more paranoid about getting into real combat only when they have a massive advantage.
ToxicFire Warlords Corp The Core Collective	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:01:00 - [19] Edited by: ToxicFire on 17/12/2006 23:09:08 Edited by: ToxicFire on 17/12/2006 23:06:45 I read a good portion of the OP thread then decided im not even gonna dignify readin the rest of the thread. Its purely pro pirate and all I can say is. You got your feckin warp core stab nerf now F*** off, if you can't kill people now it is purely about the level of skill you have and the game will not be tailored to your weakness Oh and smart move publicly listing an exploit Join the save Stargate SG1 Campaign Today! http://savestargatesg1.com/
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Vishnej stuff Just so you know, if you make the person go a set distance, then you will never need a warp scrambler to kill a slow ship. You will web it, and it'll have to travel 2km going about 20 m/s, or 1-2m/s if you double web it. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Amarria Lightwielder N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:37:00 - [21] not signed, the way it is now is just fine -- -- Sound in EVE
Roddic Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.12.18 00:35:00 - [22] you wouldn't be a pirate would you? no new stages need to be added to warping, it would ruin the game for alot of people.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2006.12.18 01:59:00 - [23] now i understand how desperate the situation has become these days to just sit there and let the victims come to your F1-to-F8-camp... come! on! an eagle has (at least) 150m sig - how hard can it be for inties to get a hold of him... asking yourself, if this is indeed skill and preparation everyone talks about never crossed your mind?
Elvarien Caldari The Night's Watch THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2006.12.18 02:42:00 - [24] no >---- A Haiku with <3 Logged into Jita. System is empty, I cry. Tis a dream come true. Some day.
MissileRus	Posted - 2006.12.18 02:59:00 - [25] fixing the warp problems: set a permanent amount of time before entering warp after hitting the warp button, no more pre aligned insta warp offs, no sniper cookie, no pirate cookie, no cookie for anyone and a nerf to the isnta warp off by cowards imo. i would like to see the propulsion stats being used for something... but a set amount of time before entering warp is the best solution imo, and simplest. and sometimes the simple pwns the complicated... --------------------------- 4. i like pizza
EPSILON DELTA	Posted - 2006.12.18 03:01:00 - [26] Who other than noobs goes into 0.0 without a set of BMs before Rev? The only thing WTZ changed are snipers hoping to catch noob haulers in low sercuity, which btw isn't something I consider pvp as much as griefing. ("look at me i killed that ibis with my t2 tachys, I pwn!!!11") If 99% of people in 0.0 already effectively had WTZ pre-rev, why are people complaining now that they officially turned it into part of game mechanic?
MissileRus	Posted - 2006.12.18 03:20:00 - [27] well the warp problems imo aint warp to 0, its being pre-aligned, volley, warp-off.. the tactic used by gangs etc.. battles with multible ships should be more the sniping and being pre-aligned, there should be no benefit from sniping pre-aligned then from being in the chaos and sucking or dpsing or whatever. i want better fights and fights not so boring as the primary/secondary and aligned cowardness everyones using... fleet fights where all ship types are used with multible roles with multible targets at all kinds of ranges in a big blobb of testosterone... not the slow gliding appart requiring more and more range= sniping FTW fights that sucks extreme.. with a pre-set time of warp, there would be no benefit of having long range fighting blobbs that slowly get further and further away from eatchother, just warp in and wtfpwn, if your scrambled it should be showed on the overview, support can then unscramble you or soemthing so you could warp to safety(to carrier for repairs etc). theres alot more imo the warp to 0, warp to 0 has nothing to do with this, but large scale fighting quality has everything to do with it. theres one system and thats primary/secondary and floating blobbs that sepperate, it should be room for different systems, but pre-aligning is to mutch i-win for anyone to combat in any other way. jsut my views, i want more exciting fleet/large gang action.. --------------------------- 4. i like pizza
zibelthurdos	Posted - 2006.12.18 03:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Roddic you wouldn't be a pirate would you? if he is he's not a very good one, i'm about as carebear as they come,and i'm not having any trouble stopping and popping war targets as they come through a gate.
Doppler Shift	Posted - 2006.12.18 03:33:00 - [29] Edited by: Doppler Shift on 18/12/2006 03:37:14 The idea is simply bad for more reasons than I can count. Out of the top of my head: First, addressing the example issue: What? An expert pilot that had done his homework, his training and his tactical bookmarcs with the perfect ship for the job and you couldn't catch him? Your example is of course demonstrating the exact reason that under no circumstance should your idea be implemented. You should NEVER have been able to catch that guy. He is an expert in evading you. The only guy that should be able to catch him would be a covop or inty with their faster warp speed that ANTICIPATED his move, warped with him and landed first at his target ready to scramble him. If your idea let you catch him without a bubble or a role-ship means it is unbalancing... On the other hand, no hauler would ever be able to escape anything ever again unless stabbed (warped/inertia) to death. And then it wouldn't escape anyway... Gatecamps would be steel barricades instead of gauntlets. No more escaping for battle, anyhow. In order to escape, you should be god and your enemies morons. In fact, the only thing it would serve would be your personal style of gameplay. Face it - it is just an idea to make gatecamps inescapable.
Vishnej Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.18 05:56:00 - [30] Edited by: Vishnej on 18/12/2006 06:02:47 No, I'm not a bloody pirate. I was building on Lorth's post, encounters I've had defending space in competent gangs versus competent individuals, and CCP's original intention to have nonconsensual contact areas. When I wrote the OP people were claiming that WTZ was going to ruin the game in multiple threads - this is not a whine about that issue, it is a proposal to increase the ability to catch people, who before Rev were using instas + tacticals, and after Rev will still use tacticals. Enhanced probing abilities helped, a lot - a pilot can't go AFK in the right safe anymore, they have to warp from point to point in order to be invulnerable. The WCS nerf helped a bit. The large bubbles will help, when they become standard issue. The HP boost helped. And the long-range ammo nerf helped a little. That Eagle was a standout because its pilot wasn't an idiot, it was packing 2 WCS, and it was shooting from a few dozen 100-250km tacticals w/ t2 ammo, for just long enough to pop a ceptor and warpout. With the nerfs above, I guess it's more difficult these days to do solo driveby snipings- I'd just rather see a strong siege be difficult to break without overwhelming firepower, specialized ships, or a large dedicated posse be able to catch a hostile they're chasing. I'm currently able to evade a 150 man 3-gate 1 bubble camp in a badly setup blackbird, completely unprepared - it just takes a little bit more time. I should not be able to do that. Missilerus is partially right - half of my objection is to snipers. But the other half is simply that you should be able to defend a system against(you should be able to kill) a single non-covert expert-level enemy with an overwhelming force of expert-level defenders, without metagaming. The nerfs on sniping have moved this from being unbalanced to being a serious annoyance. I guess I should just abandon this proposal and rail against the simpler examples of metagaming (it ain't an exploit until you can bait the devs into calling it one and fixing it). Making bubbles combat-flag would be a start.

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