Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
XoPhyte
Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:21:00 -
[1]
Edited by: XoPhyte on 10/11/2006 22:24:57 I am not exactly clear as to why the new heavy assault missiles (for close range damage) are again another skill subset for Caldari. Seriously we have enough skill subsets, and now we need to train for the 425 II's on the rokh
But in all seriousness, the heavy assault specializations should be an extension of the heavy missiles V skills, not yet another skill subset.
To give you an example, for both close range and long range missile skills (not including specializations) we currently have....
Rockets (close range frig - 5 day) Standard missiles (long range frig - 10 day) Heavy Missiles (Long Range Cruiser / Battlecruiser - 15 day) Now Heavy Assault (Close Range Cruiser / Battlecruiser - 15 day) Torpedoes (close range battleship and now nerfed - 20 day) Cruise missiles (long range battleship - 30 day)
Now by these estimations to get all close range and long range missile skills we have a 90 day training path to get all those to level 5
Now if you look at something like Amar....
Small energy weapons (completes both beam & pulse setups - 5 day) Medium energy turrets (long & short range cruiser - 15 day) Large energy turrets (long & short range BS- 30 day)
Total time: 50 days. All you need for the t2 variants of close and long range combat is the different specialization skill book, not a completely different skill subset.
Add in the mix that our new rokh bs forces us to train for the hybrid turrets we have another 40+ days of training for a grand total of 130 days for caldari, 50 days for other races. I don't see how that is reasonable.
Sure you can bring up that the t2 variants of missiles don't require previous speciliaziation skills like hybrid turrets. But I remind you now that the rokh is a railboat, we have to train the hybrid's to lvl 5 and all the subsequent specializiation skills to IV.
I'm not complaining about the rokh or the rails (it's about time caldari will be effective in fleet combat) but please for the love of god, remove yet another skill subset for caldari with the heavy assaults.
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Most people in eve would rather win than have a good fight
|
Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar Shurekin INC
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:26:00 -
[2]
ya but you have only 1 spec skill for each missile.
For example, Small energy turret 5 then Small Beam Saser spec and small pulse laser spec. Compared to Rockets 5 Rocket specialization. its still very balanced. MY thoughts on Kali |
XoPhyte
Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:30:00 -
[3]
Edited by: XoPhyte on 10/11/2006 22:32:49
Originally by: Mr Ninjaface ya but you have only 1 spec skill for each missile.
For example, Small energy turret 5 then Small Beam Saser spec and small pulse laser spec. Compared to Rockets 5 Rocket specialization. its still very balanced.
Yeah, it only takes a 1 hour to train the specialization skill to level 1.
So by your own logic, after 5 days you can utilize both long range and short range t2 weapons.
We have to train rockets 5, then rocket specialization - 5 days for short range frig.
For long range we have to train missiles 5 then missile specialization - 10 days for long range frig.
Your char = t2 short and long range after 5 days my char = t2 short and long range after 15 days.
So basically you just restated my point. We have skill subsets for each skill needed, you only need the different specialization book.
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Most people in eve would rather win than have a good fight
|
Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar Shurekin INC
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:33:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Mr Ninjaface on 10/11/2006 22:34:27
Originally by: XoPhyte Edited by: XoPhyte on 10/11/2006 22:31:08 Edited by: XoPhyte on 10/11/2006 22:30:38
Originally by: Mr Ninjaface ya but you have only 1 spec skill for each missile.
For example, Small energy turret 5 then Small Beam Saser spec and small pulse laser spec. Compared to Rockets 5 Rocket specialization. its still very balanced.
Yeah, it only takes a 1 hour to train the specialization skill to level 1.
So by your own logic, after 5 days you can utilize both long range and short range t2 weapons.
We have to train rockets 5, then rocket specialization - 5 days for short range frig.
For long range we have to train missils 5 then missile specialization - 10 days for long range frig.
Your char = t2 short and long range after 5 days my char = t2 short and long range after 15 days.
sure but Ive got to train both up to lvl 4 more than likely. If you want to just go up to lvl 1 wtf is the point.
Also missiles dont require you to train the teir below before you go for t2 you can train t2 torps right away if you want where as on any other turreted ship you have to work your way up. MY thoughts on Kali |
XoPhyte
Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:35:00 -
[5]
Edited by: XoPhyte on 10/11/2006 22:36:09 Yes but so do I.
And yes I mentioned in the original post about not needing the proceeding specialization skill. However this now changes for all caldari pilots with the Rokh BS as we all need to train for the 425 II's, and therefore need all subsequent specilization skills as well.
My point is, just don't add the heavy assults with yet another stupid skill subset.
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Most people in eve would rather win than have a good fight
|
Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar Shurekin INC
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: XoPhyte Yes but so do I.
no you dont. MY thoughts on Kali |
XoPhyte
Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:37:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mr Ninjaface
Originally by: XoPhyte Yes but so do I.
no you dont.
Hmm, I DON'T need to train light missile specilization to lvl 4, or rocket specilization lvl 4 to be effective either???? What are you talking about.
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Most people in eve would rather win than have a good fight
|
Dixon
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:38:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dixon on 10/11/2006 22:43:00 Edited by: Dixon on 10/11/2006 22:41:02 It may seem unfair, but you forget that t2 turrets require support skills aswell.
FE: T2 torps require: Missile launcher operation lvl 5 (rank 1) Standard missiles lvl 3 (rank 2) Heavy missiles lvl3 (rank 3) Torpedoes lvl 5 (rank 4) Total skillp: 1.320.000
T2 Pulse lasers require: Gunnery lvl 5 (rank 1) Motion prediction lvl 5 (rank 2) Large Energy Turret lvl 5 (rank 5) Total skillp: 2.048.000*
*of course they also require the small and medium energy turret skills lvl 5 and both specs to lvl 4 (1.386.040 sp) - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar Shurekin INC
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:39:00 -
[9]
You can complain all you want the thing is its done now don't train it if you don't want to.
Missiles are easier to train for anyways. My minmatar character now has to train these heavy assaults as well not exactly something im looking forward to something im going to put off as well. The missile skill set doesnt have to many teirs to train atm and its very easy to get the largest teir of t2 missiles where as for turrets you have to work your way up. MY thoughts on Kali |
XoPhyte
Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:40:00 -
[10]
Edited by: XoPhyte on 10/11/2006 22:41:28 I am going to requote my original post...
Originally by: XoPhyte Sure you can bring up that the t2 variants of missiles don't require previous speciliaziation skills like hybrid turrets. But I remind you now that the rokh is a railboat, we have to train the hybrid's to lvl 5 and all the subsequent specializiation skills to IV.
Yes, I understand that previously we did not have to train up the previous tier specialization skills. However that has now changed with the addition of the Rokh and training for the 425 II's. It is this simple fact that has unbalanced training time in my mind if you add the heavy assault missile subset skills.
And I think the point is not to compare caldari vs other chars across all weapons, I believe they were pretty balanced before. All I am saying is to make the heavy assault II's simply require heavy missiles V rather then another subset.
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Most people in eve would rather win than have a good fight
|
|
Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar Shurekin INC
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:43:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mr Ninjaface on 10/11/2006 22:45:23 I just wanted to see the difference in train time.
My alt that has standard missiles 3 it would take 38 days to get torp spec 4 where as with hybrids it would take 135 days to get blaster spec and railgun spec to 4 and if I go for just large Rail spec it takes 101 days.
MY thoughts on Kali |
XoPhyte
Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mr Ninjaface The missile skill set doesnt have to many teirs to train atm and its very easy to get the largest teir of t2 missiles where as for turrets you have to work your way up.
And yes I agree with this. Before it was MUCH faster to get to t2 large caldari then it was T2 anything else.
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Most people in eve would rather win than have a good fight
|
XoPhyte
Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:45:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mr Ninjaface I just wanted to see the difference in train time.
My alt that has standard missiles 3 it would take 38 days to get torp spec 4 where as with hybrids it would take 135 days to get blaster spec and railgun spec to 4.
Yeah, it sucks I know. But remember that caldari must now train for the railgun spec 4 (and perhaps blaster spec 4 )
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Most people in eve would rather win than have a good fight
|
Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar Shurekin INC
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: XoPhyte
Originally by: Mr Ninjaface I just wanted to see the difference in train time.
My alt that has standard missiles 3 it would take 38 days to get torp spec 4 where as with hybrids it would take 135 days to get blaster spec and railgun spec to 4.
Yeah, it sucks I know. But remember that caldari must now train for the railgun spec 4 (and perhaps blaster spec 4 )
it seems more like to me that your problem isnt the new teir of missile its the fact that the rohk now exists meaning you have to put SP into large turrets. Its good that they make caldari more SP intensive imho. MY thoughts on Kali |
XoPhyte
Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:50:00 -
[15]
Edited by: XoPhyte on 10/11/2006 22:51:39 Well the rokh was really needed imo. Caldari was simply NOT a good char for fleet combat (if you flew in a raven you had to watch your torps or cruise missiles slowly float to the target). If you fly a scorp you are instantly primaried and dead, and really don't bring much dps to the equation.
Here is the overall point. Caldari gets 2 great ships in Kali. The drake would be best with the heavy assaults (no caldari have this trained). The rokh would be best with 425 II's (or large blaster II's), not many caldari have this trained yet.
It just seems that all caldari understood the need for railboats and began training for the 425 II's, but now the drake would be best with the assault II's, which simply means that we will not fly it as effectively for several months until we have finished the 425 II's. Where as all other players will instantly get to take advantage of their BC's and BS's, while caldari waits for completly new skills to train.
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Most people in eve would rather win than have a good fight
|
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: XoPhyte
Yeah, it sucks I know. But remember that caldari must now train for the railgun spec 4 (and perhaps blaster spec 4 )
so you have to train for more than 1 different weapon type if you want to use all your ships just like the other 3 races: amarr (lasers+drones), gallente (hybrid+drones) or minmatar (projectiles+missiles+drones)?
yeah i totaly see how this is an unfair nerf to caldari players.
|
Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar Shurekin INC
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:54:00 -
[17]
Originally by: XoPhyte Edited by: XoPhyte on 10/11/2006 22:51:39 Well the rokh was really needed imo. Caldari was simply NOT a good char for fleet combat (if you flew in a raven you had to watch your torps or cruise missiles slowly float to the target). If you fly a scorp you are instantly primaried and dead, and really don't bring much dps to the equation.
Here is the overall point. Caldari gets 2 great ships in Kali. The drake would be best with the heavy assaults (no caldari have this trained). The rokh would be best with 425 II's (or large blaster II's), not many caldari have this trained yet.
It just seems that all caldari understood the need for railboats and began training for the 425 II's, but now the drake would be best with the assault II's, which simply means that we will not fly it as effectively for several months until we have finished the 425 II's. Where as all other players will instantly get to take advantage of their BC's and BS's, while caldari waits for completly new skills to train.
It would be that way with anything new. Not something you can really avoid. MY thoughts on Kali |
Grey Area
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:55:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Grey Area on 10/11/2006 22:57:44 XOPhyte...you're looking in the wrong place for the imbalance. The introduction of the heavy assaults AND the skills is the correct route...it gives frigates, cruisers and battleships a close AND long range weapon - just the same as turrets.
The imbalance in the skill tree is in the support skills. Some of them are arbitrarily higher rank than "equivalent" turret skills, even though they give a lower effect! Currently there are 1,792,000 MORE SP required to train all missiles to level 5 than there are to train all hybrids, turrets or lasers to level 5 (including support skills, prior to inclusion of Heavy Assaults)
But, as mentioned, turret users have their more demanding specialisation process to cope with. For me, that part is balanced...turrets are more linear to learn, but take less time overall. Launchers are more "freeform", but take LONGER overall.
What is NOT balanced is the choice of modules. Why is it turrets get THREE versions in most size/range classes with variations in fitting, tracking, damage mod etc, but there is only ONE type of missile launcher in each class? Why can't launchers have the equivalent of Dual 250's, 350's and 425's?
It annoys me that missiles are referred to as "easy mode" and "cookie cutter" setups. What do you expect us to fit, when we only have a choice of TWO weapon modules compared to turret's SIX, NO midslot modules for missiles compared to turrets tracking computers, and ONE low slot damage module compared to turrets damage mods AND tracking subroutines?
And before some bright spark says "missiles don't have tracking"...I KNOW that...but why can't we have a low or mid slot module that affects explosion velocity or explosion radius? --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 22:56:00 -
[19]
Originally by: XoPhyte Where as all other players will instantly get to take advantage of their BC's and BS's, while caldari waits for completly new skills to train.
a lot of amarr pilots will need to train up large autocannon/artillery spec for the abaddon now.
|
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 23:00:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Grey Area
And before some bright spark says "missiles don't have tracking"...I KNOW that...but why can't we have a low or mid slot module that affects explosion velocity or explosion radius?
1 2
|
|
Grey Area
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 23:03:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Grey Area
And before some bright spark says "missiles don't have tracking"...I KNOW that...but why can't we have a low or mid slot module that affects explosion velocity or explosion radius?
1 2
LOL...more stock answers from the "I don't think before I post" crowd. Both of those modules work for TURRETS as well (painter's in fact far BETTER for turrets)...so to add the modules to both sides of the equation = no change. Turrets still get more CHOICE of modules (note I am NOT saying "are better") than missiles do. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
XoPhyte
Out Siders Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 23:03:00 -
[22]
Edited by: XoPhyte on 10/11/2006 23:04:21
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: XoPhyte Where as all other players will instantly get to take advantage of their BC's and BS's, while caldari waits for completly new skills to train.
a lot of amarr pilots will need to train up large autocannon/artillery spec for the abaddon now.
Fair point, but do they have to train another skill subset up for the amarr tier 2 battlecruiser? (not sure what the name is...)
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Most people in eve would rather win than have a good fight
|
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 23:03:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Grey Area
And before some bright spark says "missiles don't have tracking"...I KNOW that...but why can't we have a low or mid slot module that affects explosion velocity or explosion radius?
1 2
I want a high slot drone damage mod while you're at it...
Because I said so...
|
Grey Area
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 23:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: murder one I want a high slot drone damage mod while you're at it...
Only if i can have missiles that
web shield repair armor repair energy drain ECM
I think drones are quite varied enough, thank you. This isn't just about DPS.
--- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Benglada
Finite Horizon The Red Skull
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 23:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: murder one I want a high slot drone damage mod while you're at it...
Only if i can have missiles that
web shield repair armor repair energy drain ECM
I think drones are quite varied enough, thank you. This isn't just about DPS.
Id agree to that if you could only hold 30 missiles =) ---------------------------
Originally by: Arkanor
0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
|
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 23:22:00 -
[26]
Originally by: XoPhyte
Fair point, but do they have to train another skill subset up for the amarr tier 2 battlecruiser? (not sure what the name is...)
the name is harbinger and no we dont need new skills for it. we also dont get a new weapon type for it.
you know you can just continue to use heavy launchers and assault launchers on this new bc if you dont want to train up for the new weapons?
amarr do have a few missile ships though. so i guess you could say that we need to train the new skills for those ships.
|
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.11.10 23:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Grey Area
Both of those modules work for TURRETS as well
you didnt ask for a mod that _only_ affects missiles:
Originally by: Grey Area
but why can't we have a low or mid slot module that affects explosion velocity or explosion radius?
also: have you ever stopped to think why turrets get those modules? could it maybe have something to do with this "tracking" you dont want to talk about?
if you want to get modules that improve your launchers performance thats fine with me as long as the base performance of those launchers gets reduced in turn. you dont have those mods because missiles dont need them.
|
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 02:09:00 -
[28]
I'll just be blunt:
Turrets take longer to get a specific weapon specced in, but faster to spec all shot and long range of a certain turret.
Missiles are faster to spec a specific weapon, but longer to spec them all.
Yes, it take really **** long to train all those skills (That's what my char did all summer for the most part), however it's balanced really. If you want t2 torps or t2 blasters, you'll have the T2 torps first. If you want t2 rockets, HAMs, and Torps, it'll take longer.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
|
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 02:10:00 -
[29]
I'll just be blunt:
Turrets take longer to get a specific weapon specced in, but faster to spec all shot and long range of a certain turret.
Missiles are faster to spec a specific weapon, but longer to spec them all.
Yes, it take really **** long to train all those skills (That's what my char did all summer for the most part), however it's balanced really. If you want t2 torps or t2 blasters, you'll have the T2 torps first. If you want t2 rockets, HAMs, and Torps, it'll take longer.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
|
Nebrin
|
Posted - 2006.11.11 03:15:00 -
[30]
Put this into perspective: 1. For a gunboat pilot to get large rails, he needs to train all the smalls and mediums to 5, get spec to 4, then get other sub-skills to use it. Caldari pilot wants tech 2 cruise missles or torps, no problem, 30 days of training and BAM, you got one or the other. WE dont need to spec out the small or mediums. Another example, you want to use rockets, you have to train the skill, you want to use small missles, you have to train the skill. Same thing with Heavy Missles, Torps and Cruises. There is no "Battleship missle skill" ext... That being said, Heavy ASSAULT Missles is a totally different class of missle. Our cruiser class missles only had one type of missle, now there is a second type, hence you have to train. You rather that they change it so there are Small Missles/Heavy Missles/Cruisemissles. Then spec out EACH one like guns to get rockets/Heavy Assault Missles/Torps?? Missles are fine the way they are, they are adding a new class, you dont want to train it, dont train it. If the devs decide to give it to people who go "oh but I already have heavy missles to 5, and I dont want to train a new skill for these" and they go ahead and give it to you, thats not what it means to be a missle pilot. Before you flame me, I AM a caldari pilot, and I do have both missles and guns trained up. I honestly think missles have the edge when it comes to specing them out because what if you dont want tech 2 torps, just cruises. Same thing with small and heavy missles now. You get to pick and chose what you want, gun pilots HAVE to get small/medium to get large. Granted they are getting the rest of their guns speced out because of it, it still takes quite a while to get all of that trained up.
No one says caldari HAVE to fly a Rohk. A good number of Caldari pilots already have rails trained up, its just that if they wanted a different type of BS, there ya go.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |