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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1366
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Posted - 2015.06.29 19:22:53 -
[1] - Quote
When CCP started fw there was no monetary gain from capturing plexes. I think they assumed people would fight for plexes and territory because it was fun. And it wasn't a bad assumption. At times people did this and had fun. The idea was you would get isk to fight for your faction. It wasn't that you would fight for a faction to get isk.
But by and large plexing and fighting for territory became of little importance.
So players said we need rewards/consequences for plexing and then that will fix everything. So now we have consequences. Yet again after the dust settles we see that winning the actual occupancy war (outside of your home system or occasionally to get a medal) is of little importance to the average fw player. Conclusion: adding consequences to a dull game will not make it better.
And along the way ccp has adjusted the npcs in all sorts of ways. They made them weaker and stronger and required them to be killed etc. But fiddling with the npcs will never make fw occupancy a fun pvp game. There was a time when npcs were stupid powerful and discouraged pvp but at least that is over with. I don't think tweaking npcs will change much.
The only thing ccp has never done is give the players more tools so that they can fight for plexes throughout the war zone. Intel tools so players can know where plexes are being taken real time and therefore effectively cover a larger territory was something CCP said it would do, but never actually did. This combined with a timer rollback system is what faction war always needed. Get the blobs out of the same hot spots and get more quick small gang action spread throughout the war zone.
But somehow these changes that would better place the fighting into the hands of pvpers never made it through.
Why doesn't anyone care about systems? Because the game of gaining occupancy is not fun. Alts in plexes is boring but it's how you gain the most vp. (I said vp not lp) Make it fun by giving pvpers better tools to fight for their territory and you make the occupancy war game fun. Once the game is fun people will care.
In the meantime we will have the occasional blob a home system campaign spread out by lolplexing.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1366
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Posted - 2015.06.30 14:14:21 -
[2] - Quote
We tend to agree on allot. There are many eve players and former eve players who agree that the long waits for quality pvp encounters are a huge drawback to the game.
I recopied your proposal below so people can see it again. I think it is at least worth discussing. First let me try to spell out a possible structure to what you say and tell me if I get it wrong.
I think you are basically saying that faction war could give people the option to fight several battles similar to the alliance tournament fights.
Lets call them super plexes and say they are worth ?15? plexes as far as sov. So each side goes to an agent and based on their standing or whatever they could form a fleet for a novice, small medium or large "superplex." They would assign ships points and the npc battlship could drop that size fleet into the super plex. The guy getting the super plex will have the people in his fleet and when he has it he will get his fleet dropped into the random plex. Novice plex would have a lower point maximum. (again think of the points like the alliance tournament).
Now both sides will appear in the plex at the same time and it will be a relatively random system in fw. Other players from faction war (or neutrals) could go in the plex to help after they jump in but the fight can start immediately and neither side will know which system they are being dropped into until they are there. (its like a top secret mission)
CCP can mess with the point system from time to time. etc. They can limit logi or ewar ships just like they do in the alliance tournament.
There are some things that might be a problem with this idea but those problems might not be insurmountable.
For example alts in the enemy militia might just accept these missions and bail out to help their own militia. Will this happen allot? I doubt it if the rewards are not that big. Perhaps it will count toward sov but not give more lp. In any event the rewards can be adjusted to discourage that behavior.
People who like the current system would not need to participate in these fights.
Another advantage is that it might limit the efficacy of booster alts. Because your t3 will not warp there immediately. It could come later but at least the beginning of the fight won't have that.
Ok I admit I am not 100% sure about it but it seems like a decent idea. Certainly worth considering.
For those who hate it, they could keep doing there normal thing in eve if they want. I would say they could even do this just for the fights - no lp and no vp. (that would also discourage the alt behavior)
Pestilen Ratte wrote:I think we should be talking more about large scale changes to faction warfare, and not waste too much time worrying about stabbed caldari freaks.
As others have noted, CCP is on a mission to save Null Sov just now, so they don't have a lot of time or attention for FW. But, when they do, I think those guys are capable of making big changes, if there is a good reason to make a change.
As I see it, the biggest threat to FW is a lack of fights, or more exactly a high time to fight ratio of investment payoff. I was in hospital earlier this year, and it is easy to play Eve when you have nothing else to do. Now our corp has new members from real life, and they add up the hours spent on the game and compare it to the fights they get.
Rather than ***** and moan (I like to ***** and moan) about issues, maybe we should consider the metric of "time/fights" when we consider the changes we would like to see made. If the ratio goes down, new players are going to enjoy the game and stick with it, and bitter vets might take a bit longer to grow bitter.
In my view, we need a new set of mechanics that allow squads to find roughly matched squads to fight in a quick and easy manner. The plea system is good, and I don't think it needs replacing, but at the same time it rewards players with LP and isk. It doesn't reward players with pew, per se.
You show me the incentive, I will show you the outcome. We who want pew, and not isk, need CCP to make the incentive winning battles, not earning isk. Then people who want that incentive will participate, and stabbed freaks will go back to winning asteroids with bears in high sec. Or whatever it is that they do for isk.
In my opinion, CCP need to build a group mission mechanic for FW. They have sort of done this with incursions, but this is PVE based mission running. It is not designed around PVP faction warfare.
If we stick to the lore, Faction Navy ships (NPC) can fit black ops jump drives.
We could have special FW navy missions where the mission is to be hot dropped into a random FW DED spot by an NPC battleship. These special NPC BS could be configured to warp tech 1 and navy ships only, and they would be limited in the number (total mass) of ships they could drop.
The other faction, using the same mechanic, could also drop the same total mass of fleet to the same location. If the drops were synchronised, you would get neat FW squads fights of roughly equal sizes very quickly. Squads would just need to form up at the nominated point, at the appointed time.
It is exactly the same as with current missions, except that two sets of missions, on either side, are being synchronised.
Eve is a fantastic game, but roaming for long periods without fights is not attractive to new players.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1366
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 20:27:16 -
[3] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: [Untrue part of the post deleted] Perhaps you should appreciate the hunt as part of the game.
Some people like hunting but it really isn't for me. Sit around all day waiting for a deer to wander by and shoot it. Sorry I have no time for that and *for me* it sounds very dull.
I would rather a game that models spaceship warfare as opposed to hunting. That's why I joined faction warfare. I want to be constantly sent into battle.
I think the EVE can accommodate both styles of play. I'm not saying take away mechanics that people use to hunt. Eve has allot of options for people who like to hunt and have the time for that. (and they are all good for those who like that sort of thing) I'm just suggesting that ccp should add some mechanics for people who find wandering and hunting boring. Some people want more quality pvp for the time they are online.
But anyway your opinion that there are already "plenty" of quality pvp fights in eve is a controversial one at best. Maybe you think more quality pvp fights would be a bad thing, but at least acknowledge many people disagree. There are *allot* of players who would like more quality pvp for the time they spend online.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1366
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Posted - 2015.07.01 02:58:01 -
[4] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote: [Untrue part of the post deleted] Perhaps you should appreciate the hunt as part of the game.
Some people like hunting but it really isn't for me. Sit around all day waiting for a deer to wander by and shoot it. Sorry I have no time for that and *for me* it sounds very dull. I would rather a game that models spaceship warfare as opposed to hunting. That's why I joined faction warfare. I want to be constantly sent into battle. I think the EVE can accommodate both styles of play. I'm not saying take away mechanics that people use to hunt. Eve has allot of options for people who like to hunt and have the time for that. (and they are all good for those who like that sort of thing) I'm just suggesting that ccp should add some mechanics for people who find wandering and hunting boring. Some people want more quality pvp for the time they are online. But anyway your opinion that there are already "plenty" of quality pvp fights in eve is a controversial one at best. Maybe you think more quality pvp fights would be a bad thing, but at least acknowledge many people disagree. There are *allot* of players who would like more quality pvp for the time they spend online. So rather than find a game you like you would like to make eve do things that it was not meant to do?
Do you have a dev blog to support your claim that eve is only meant for "hunting" and not spaceship warfare?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1366
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 15:11:08 -
[5] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:
Do you have a dev blog to support your claim that eve is only meant for "hunting" and not spaceship warfare?
I think its generally accepted that eve is supposed to be a little harder than other games. Giving you pings as to the location of everyone running a plex takes the job of intel gathering out of the players hands and would simply encourage people to stay docked and wait rather than being proactive in creating content.
Consider a few points:
First, thanks for making a constructive post that actually addresses the mechanics. If you continue to post constructive posts that address the actual ideas, I will respond. I hope you don't revert to ad hominem attacks that ignore the actual proposals.
Second, you seem to think that adding data and intel makes eve easier. But since both you and your enemy get the intel it does not make the war easier. It actually makes it richer and more complex. The more data each side has means that there will be more ways to use that data if you are smart. Look at the other extreme. If you have no data then you just bring your biggest fleet you can and hope for the best. No data turns eve into a dice game. And most dice games are not very complex or strategically rich. More data/intel means more tools smart players can use to gain an edge.
Third, it is clear that the players can not (or are not willing to) scout the war zone without more available tools. We can blame the players all we want but that is not really good game design. There are reasons why players are not fighting for most of the territory. Those reasons are that it is dull and tedious work as opposed to fun and enriching game play.
The fact that ccp bases the consequences of tiers on *all* the systems in the warzone show at least some intent on their part that players will actually try to capture and hold the territory. It's clear that is not working as intended.
I don't know what you mean players will stay docked. Ever since fw came out there have been plenty of people starting threads like this one because fw occupancy is not delivering/decided by the hoped for pvp. This is a problem for the entire game not just faction war. It seems to me that better tools to help players find quality fights will lead to more players resubbing and undocking. Undocking to "roam" around hoping to stumble onto a random good fight gets old for a lot of people.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: It would also mean a small group of 2-3 people could fly around and deny every solo plexer in the area with a little too mch efficiency.
I fly solo as much as just about anyone. I would love it if more groups of 2-3 came to try to disrupt my plexing. Its not because I am good enough to fight 2-3 at a time (at least not in the same ship class) But because the plex mechanics make it easy to split them up. If they come in 2 destroyers and a frig I can jump in a novice. If they come in 2 frigs and a destroyer I can jump in a destroyer and hope I get some advantage due to them landing on me.
I can also ship up to a cruiser and do mediums. You see what will happen is logistics (and I don't mean guardians but rather supplies of ships) will become important again. Where you have ships and whether you have them close by will be important. This will add a whole level of strategy that the current mechanics do not fully embrace.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: I also remember you asking for ship types and player names on top of the plex pings. On top of that im sure you will then ask for imaginary players to go and defend plexes too. Since it doesnt matter how many pings you get about it, no one is ever gong to care about some russian running a plex in Mantenault when theres a dozen targets between you and there in systems that people have chosen to care about..
Ok I would just point out you are contradicting yourself. First you say 2-3 people will ruin the solo plexers in the area. And now you say no one will bother with the intel. I just ask that you try to think clearly about this, and make up your mind. I can tell you I would cover a certain area and if an enemy plexes in that area I would go fight him. In the meantime I would sit in a plex and let people know I am there so if they want to fight they know where they can find me. People would come and there would be fights. Allot more fights spread out throughout allot more of the war zone than we currently have in the occupancy war. The kills per vp ratio would increase dramatically. As would the number of quality fights per hour pvpers would get.
As far as how much intel would be given I think CCP can tweak with that. Again more intel for both sides means more data they can both use. This does not make the game easier it makes it more complex where the person who can better analyze the data has the advantage of the person who can't. In other words, intel adds complexity and strategy.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1367
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Posted - 2015.07.06 16:13:49 -
[6] - Quote
Cellini Benvenuto wrote:Just a newbie's point of view, but I'd like FW to be a true 1 v 1 - frigates vs frigates, navy frigs vs navy frigs, dessies vs dessies, no off grid boosts, no fleets, no option to warp out once you are in, no option to d-scan who's in a plex. You enter a plex. It is a fight. you have to fight. The better pilot wins. No farming - no NPCs. Just a plex that is activated when a pilot warps in and stays until there's a fight and a clear winner.
There are allot of problems with almost all these suggestions.
But one thing I do wish is that the fw plex deadspace area counted like a different system when it came to boosters. If you want the boosts then they would need to enter the plex.
I know ccp has technical difficulty making it so they only apply on grid. But I wonder if that is something they could accomplish.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
|
Posted - 2015.09.14 22:05:33 -
[7] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Pestilen Ratte wrote:The argument that links can't be restricted to grid is complete horse feathers. It is just an outright lie. The real story is that CCP employs people who play the game and who like having unfair advantages because their knopwledge and access to these unfair advantages makes them a big deal in their little worlds. CCP has been quite clear about their desire and intent to put links on grid (whether this is the best outcome for small gangs or not). I believe them more than you I'm afraid.
I suppose I still believe them as well. Its just an obviously bad mechanic. But as the years go by I wonder...
Anyway in addition to treating plexes like different systems and therefore limitting ogb, I gave some other ideas that I think they should consider to help the sov warfare side of things here.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=443997&find=unread
Most of my ideas revolve around trying to make fighting for sov more fun. I don't really get into lp and stuff like that.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:15:01 -
[8] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Stabbed farmers exist, but they aren't ubiquitous like some seem to suggest.
You know what are everywhere? Elite pvp gods in linked, snaked, drugged T3D's and Garmurs/Worms/Orthrus. Let's ban T3D's from small plexes, nerf the Svipul's speed and hit the Mordus/Guristas line hard with the nerf bat like they deserve.
I'd like to see suspect flags for neutrals entering FW plexes and OGB being addressed, but those are both controversial and will be a bit longer in coming. EVERYONE agrees that the Svipul is still OP, and Mordus/Guristas kiters are cancer.
I am sympathetic but I if you ban t3d from smalls it will just be afs - it used to be the hawk. The T3ds do cost more so they should be better. Also although I think they are clearly more powerfull than destroyers and AFs I think they are clearly outclassed by the pirate cruisers and HACs.
Clearly garmurs and worms are overpowered compared to the other pirate ships. But I would just as soon they buffed the succubus and cruror so they would somehow justify their price tag.
But honestly all of the tweaks we do won't matter if one pilot has an offgrid booster and the other doesn't. That just completely breaks all balance in ships.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1379
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Posted - 2015.10.05 15:47:52 -
[9] - Quote
Here is a link to the link to the minutes on faction war and pve.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6077738#post6077738
Some of the fw highlights:
NPC faction war patrols
Webs in FW missions to dissuade stealth bombers
4 way war
A suspect timer of sorts in plexes
Have your corp or alliance affiliate with a faction that way individual members can join the faction war without the whole corp joining.
No t3s in smalls
I probably forgot something.
Abannans Forum Alt wrote:Do you wake up in a cold sweat screaming "HE HAD LINKS! NOOOOOOO"
Nah, I just lost allot of interest in playing EVE, to the extent it has such broken mechanics.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1388
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Posted - 2015.10.08 16:21:37 -
[10] - Quote
Crosi
As always you only talk about the fights with gangs of new players you engage who probably know very little about pvp at all. You fail to mention all the ganks from your way overpowered ogb.
In any case, *all* of those pilots likely left with an increased feeling that "solo" or micro gang pvp in eve is best left to tryhards who want to pay for an alt account and drag it around everywhere. That growing feeling is indeed a cancer to eve. Sadly that feeling has plenty of justification.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1389
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Posted - 2015.10.08 20:10:22 -
[11] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:If i wasnt there, they would have been left with the feeling of jumping into another empty system where there was no action at all and the couple of locals have no interest in fighting blobs of faction frigs.
It is pretty clear to me that allot more people would be fighting in low sec plexes if it weren't for all the broken ogbs. You might think your presence makes up for that, but we will just have to disagree.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: And tbh, apart from a relatively small number of farmer kills theres not many fights i take where im not outnumbered, often by quite a lot. And quite often when im taking a fight outnumbered i also have to warp in to them. A risk that i accept but would be much closer to suicidal with no boosts, so it would just not happen.
When you say you are outnumbered are you including your strategic cruiser? I noticed in your last post you refered to your "one very expensive pirate faction frig." But of course that is not all they were fighting. The killboards only show that one pirate faction frigate but there was also a strategic cruiser likely worth more than their entire gang on your side.
When you say it would be "much closer to suicidal" for you to jump in without boosts, you mean it would be much more likely you would die right? Or do you mean you would self destruct if you did not have boosts?
And you know that allot of people stopped jumping into plexes due to boosts. In the past there used to be some chance that you could sling shot a kitey ship so I used to jump in and give it a try, even when I was ab fit. Sometimes I would die sometimes the kiter would die sometimes one of us would warp off. But it always involved a struggle with both pilots applying effort and skill. Now if you jump in on a kitey ship with boosts you have no chance of slingshotting them and you might as well just self destruct to save some time.
I do not blame you for playing the game the way ccp set it up. But it is crazy to think everyone running around in low sec with ogb is actually making more people want to log on and pvp in plexes.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1393
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 17:16:08 -
[12] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:No, they used to be slightly more powerful.
T3s came after faction war.
Although that was the point where people could start using boosts the percentages of people actually using them did not seem to get out of hand until later.
The bonuses themselves may have decreased but because ccp gave us other mods that work especially well with ogb like better active tank ships and mods as well as better bonuses to those mods there effect was largely unaffected and over the years they have arguably even become more powerfull.
Of course with time there will continue to be more available characters trained with the leadership and other skills necessary to run ogb. And I think we see more and more of their use. (but I admit that is somewhat anecdotal afaik ccp has not released any data on how many more kills use a booster. I would love to see that data.)
CCP did allot of things that made low sec pvp much better over the last few years e.g., fw and crime watch changes. And according to dotlan in 2013 and 2014 we had over 4 million kills in low sec. In 2015 we are currently sitting at about 2.8 million. Now we still have 2.7 months to go. And there are allot of null sec entities coming in. But it is good to see the statistics before the influx of null sec pilots which for reasons unrelated to low sec mechanics might boost the pvp. So we see 4m/12 = over 333k kills/ month for 2013 and 2014. 2015 we have 2.8/10.3 =271k kills per month. Thats a 20% decline.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2015
2013 and 2014 saw much more pvp than 2012 and earlier years. You would think as people get more pvp fights that in itself would draw more people to low sec and we would see the numbers continue to snowball upward. Even with the numbers plateauing in 2013-2014 that would be a sign something is amiss. That is what makes this reversing of the trend particularly odd.
Faction war hasn't changed that much since then. Other low sec mechanics haven't changed that much AFAIK. I would at least posit that the ogb cancer spreading is a very important factor.
If you want to blame bad null sec changes for the decline in numbers generally that really shouldn't effect low sec pvp that much. If anything we are seeing many of those players would come over to low sec so it might actually be helping low sec.
I did also predict that the changes to faction war done on october 22nd 2012 would eventually lead to stagnation. But I would have thought that the increase in kills in 2013 could have made up for that at least in the kill statistics. Sure people might have less interest in faction war sov but I would think the increase in pvp would continue to draw more players.
I have a strong hunch broken ogbs are a big contributing reason for this decline. But I would be interested in other views.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1393
|
Posted - 2015.10.11 18:05:04 -
[13] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:No they arnt.
There has been little appetite to fight for sov in meat grinders until this month and brave entering FW, but the choice not to push the warzone and generate ludicrous numbers of kills has not at all had anything to do with OGB or FW stagnating. Sorry.
No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing.
The question is what has lead players to be uninterested in pushing the warzone to generate pvp? Now if all of a sudden null sec got so much better that might explain why low sec became stagnant. (but the statistics don't really show that)
I agree that null sec corps coming to faction war space (and some even into faction war) should help increase the kills. But it would be odd to then say ogb has increased the pvp in low sec. These groups coming to fw low sec is not because low sec all of a sudden got better. At least it objectively has not changed since 2013 other than having fewer kills and people. I don't think these groups would think fewer kills and fewer people is good. It has more to do with these groups' perception that null sec got worse for them.
In the end we should try to isolate and remove confounding variables like what is happening in null sec in assessing how things are going in low sec. We should expect that if pvp increases in low sec as it did in 2013 then it should continue to snowball up if nothing else is at work. More people coming to low sec and finding more and more pvp should lead to more people coming to low sec for pvp and more pvp etc etc. Saddly we did not see that. We saw a proliferation of ogb in low sec and the amount of pvp plateaued and is now actually dropping.
What other causes do you attribute this to other than ogb proliferating?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1393
|
Posted - 2015.10.12 13:44:12 -
[14] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:You think brave or eve uni dont have links?
Are you asking if there is a single person in those entire alliances that has links? If so the answer is yes. Or are you asking if every pvp pilot from those corps always has links every time they pvp? Then the answer is no.
Again they get the impression that leaving the blob = getting ganked. Eve wasn't always that way.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1393
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Posted - 2015.10.12 14:29:21 -
[15] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:You seem to be speaking for a great many people there. Im not sure you have the perspective to do so. I think you are working on assumptions.
Well we can look at the evidence. Which includes the fact that one of the most supported player requests that has yet to be implemented is to put boosts on grid. It is likely the most common topic that players have consistently told ccp is terrible for the game leading right up to the current decline in numbers.
Of course you are going to pretend you don't hear what the players are saying. And pretend ogb is not contributing to people choosing to do other things with their time.
Sure we can ask *how much* it is contributing to players not being as interested in the game. Even in my own case I can say I would probably go back to doing some low sec pvp if they removed ogb, but there are other things at work as well. But in light of the constant dissatisfaction expressed by players, one would have to be completely deaf to then wonder if it is effecting their interest in the game.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1409
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Posted - 2015.10.20 18:55:57 -
[16] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Cearain wrote:
No one pushing the warzone and generating kills has nothing to do with fw stagnating? It seems to me they pretty close to the same thing.
Sorry Cearain but you are wrong on this one. We don't push the warzone because we want an extremely strong PVP ecosystem at the moment. There are still enough people in Gal Mil with the know how, as well as pilots with the skills and gumption, to take the warzone. It would totally suck at the moment due to how much neckbearding we would have to do in the AU tz due to Cal AU tz strength, but it would be doable.
I am not sure we disagree about how the game works. We may have a semantic difference. When I talk about "doing faction war" I generally mean fighting for faction war sov. I realize most people do not mean that. Most people think random pvp that has nothing to do with fw sov is still doing faction war - as long as your corp is in faction war. Therefore as long as there is allot of fights around you then fw is not stagnating. IMO faction war is stagnant when no one cares about gaining sov for your side.
When you say lots of people in gallente could fight for sov but don't (for whatever reason) IMO that means the sov system is stagnant.
Thanatos Marathon wrote: Having said that, it would be a terrible idea. In fact, we don't even want to take Caldari home systems. Killing off all your targets is a great way to end up with no targets.
- Than
I agree here as well. Station lockouts are great for null sec where they don't want people coming to fight in their farms. (they literally refer to a ssytem of "farms and fields" favorably) But it doesn't suit so well in faction war where people often join specifically to pvp. That is why I think the station lockout rule should be eased. E.g., once a system is contested (or contested a certain percent) both sides should be able to dock. This would also mean people have some urgency to fight for a system before it is 90% contested.
In any case what you describe is a clear mechanic where players are forced to either gain sov or promote pvp. Good mechanics would have the 2 go hand in hand and not compete against eachother.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1409
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 21:26:09 -
[17] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote: It's funny that you think there aren't goon alts in FW.
They most assuredly do have/had alts in fw and they do/did run the missions. When lp was worth something they paid phenomenal amounts. I have run missions for all but the Caldari.
The lp market continues to collapse but they are still too lucrative. Faction war missions do need a nerf. But they are in the *most* dangerous part of space so I think they should pay more than most other types of pvp. Also unlike ratting in null sec or running high sec missions where you can do that for about as long as you want, you need to dedicate at least a couple of hours straight to running these missions. At least if you really want to run them efficiently.
I know I am one of the few who thinks that fw mission structure is actually excellent. People used to say they want more people to come to low sec but obviously your typical level 4 mission will not work. No one is going to be able to sit in kamela, or eha in a battleship and run damsel in distress unless they have a huge group ready to defend them. This form of mission where you travel through and try to do a relatively quick kill while also trying to dodge pirates is perfect. It gets people who are willing to risk low sec used to traveling through it (and learning not every gate in low sec is camped) and rewards their risks.
There used to be allot of concern about stealth bombers but I really think having them run them is ok. They do not align all that quickly and you can get caught at the gate if someone is quick to warp to the beacon in an interceptor. I have seen the video where Gorski Carr ran a complete set of FW missions in 2 hours. But he ran them at would have been about 3AM central time US. He had absolutely no one interupt any of his missions. Not one person. He could just warp to the beacon every time without ever having to warp close to the mission while cloaked to see if anyone followed. If you run them during the US time zone you should expect to be chased out about 3 times during a run and probably lose about 1 bomber every 40 missions or so. And that assumes you are pretty careful.
If anyone thinks running missions in a stealth bomber is absolutely safe I recommend they look at for example Greg Shumann's killboard for July and August. You will see that if you are good at catching them these missions can provide content. It might be safe if you are AU time zone but any other time you are at risk. It's true the stealth bombers are not that expensive but it does take time and logistics to reship if you want to finish the mission run and the pirates forcing you off course can turn a 2 hour run into a 4 hour run or even a run where you simply won't be able to finish some of the missions.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|

Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1409
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 01:28:37 -
[18] - Quote
Crosi wrote: Wesdo]Basically, you would be happy with no fights as long as you hold all the space. Understood. But you should understand that most people are the other way around with a few notable exceptions.
???
What you say coudln't be further from the truth. I want fighting for sov to actually involve fighting. The problem is the current mechanics force a choice of either A)spending time gaining sov or B)spending time fighting. I have no interest at all in the current sov system of having alts in empty frigates d-plexing. That is why I left faction war so that I could maximize my targets.
The changes I support clearly would increase pvp. 1) Timer rollbacks, 2)real time intel on where and when plexes are being run, and 3)easing the station lockouts so you don't drive away the pvp. These would all make sov warfare a real pvp creator not a pvp inhibitor. Thanatos just explained he didn't want win sov because he didn't want to drive away the pvp. I agree with him, and think the mechanics should be modified so that doesn't happen.
Crosi wrote: Sov is the content driver, not the content. I know this is a hard concept for a bitter role-player such as yourself to understand.
Also, to summarise your vision for FW;
1)- Free intel from NPC sources. Who needs player intel channels? 2)- Bombers can run FW missions to farm LP. 3)- Tier levels should be done on the boom and bust cycle of inferno which was almost universally condemned. 4)- PvP should be balanced at the 1 frigate vs 1 frigate level. 5)- Boosts should be on grid so they become unusable by all but the largest fleet in the area at any given time and nano fleets are practically impossible to boost for. 6)- Complains about stagnation but then says station lockouts are bad. The single largest conflict driver over the last 2 years.
Im sure there are more terrible ideas that you advocate for, that was just off the top of my head.
Crosi you never actually quote me because you always want to twist things.
Here are some ideas I think we should kick around for faction war:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6038178#post6038178
As far as what you wrote let me briefly address each:
1)Clearly player run intel channels are unable to drive out rabbit plexers. Why when ccp proposes a navy maulus with an extra point does everyone instantly think they intended this for faction war plexes?? The player intel channels need help. Intel tools that give us real time intel on plexes being run would drastically increase the amount of pvp per plex and supplement the player run intel channels. That null sec players get intel about their assets being attacked does not mean they no longer need player intel channels. It does however allow them to defend their space in pvp. It means the strategic aspects can rise to another level. More intel means more data. More data means more complex strategies can happen.
2)Level 4 Mission lp amounts need to be nerfed whether they are run in bombers or cloak/mwd ishtars. Missions donGÇÖt effect sov so I really donGÇÖt care about them too much except the amount of lp they give is killing all lp markets. Yep I donGÇÖt really care if bombers can run faction war missions or not. If bombers can run them they should simply pay less than if you need a hac or bs to run them. I do think the missions should be balanced so one faction doesnGÇÖt have easy missions and the others donGÇÖt. The travel and blitz attack mechanic is a good mechanic to bring people to low sec to do pve.
3) Inferno paid way too much. But the cashout system made people interested in gaining sov and brought the militias some higher level strategy on how to do it. All factions hit tier 5 cashouts, except amarr that hit tier 4, so no faction was ever a complete bust. Every faction had a boom. It was an exciting time to be in faction war. It was never nearly as stagnant as the current system. It also rewarded people to stick with their faction instead of jumping to the higher tier faction. The cashout had issues that needed to be addressed. 1) the payments were way to high and 2) they had to do some tweaks to ensure it would not be beneficial to have alts bust flip your own system. 3) There were tons of other issues that ccp did address such as huge disparate between the rats in each plex etc. But those were separate issues from cashout versus our current forever grind model.
4)I honestly donGÇÖt even know what that means and of course never suggested that.
5)I think ogb are a cancer for eve. Put them on grid or get rid of them, whatever. Even if forced on grid they would need to be nerfed. But having them be so powerful, when they are not even present in the fight, is crazy dumb. Their rise in use has in fact corresponded with a huge drop of people signing on. There is plenty of evidence that suggests this timing is not pure coincidence. You of course ignore the evidence because your boosted garmur makes you feel special.
6)Driving your enemy far away also decreases content. IMO there would be more pvp if the station lockout rule was eased. Keeping enemies separated is generally not good for pvp. Look at null sec. The station lockout rule has also reduced variety of places you can roam. Pre-lockout you could place ships throughout the warzone and fight all sorts of different small groups. Now you have fewer larger groups and fewer systems to go to if you want fights.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1409
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 16:52:54 -
[19] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: 1- You intel channels may be inadequate. But ours dont seem to be. Coupled with the already expansive intel in the FW window its easy to keep track of whats happening.
So again my question. Why when they give the navy maulus an extra point does everyone think that is a reaction to faction war plexes? Is that working as intended? Again the player run intel channels are not enough to drive away the rabbits that either dplex in empty frigates or oplex at the far side from the warp in.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: 2- I actually agree with you here, to an extent. however, bringing people to low sec in pve ships is stupid. Thereforultimately a better idea to just remove them.
I think I would hope for baby steps. First they come to pve and try to avoid the pirates. They travel through large portions of low sec and realize that it isn't so scary after all. Hopefully they may eventually decide to come and pvp. But even if they just come for the pve, I think some people in low sec are happy to get a few kills of pve ships. Better than them just staying in high sec. I only caught a few stealth bombers myself but I was happy to catch the ones I did.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: 3- No, inferno was horrible. You have admitted in the past that you didnt do any of the hard work around making it happen. In minmatar space you could sometimes have to bash 40 systems in a couple of days. Imagine that in gal space where you would have to bash 80+. Having dozens of vulnerable systems for weeks on end is absurd and doesnt represent 'caring about sov'. Not to mention that it wouldnt work at all now its impossible to over-plex a system indefinitely..
"Inferno" had many problems that were not related to the cashout system. The cashout system (wherein I mean the system where people earned lp at the same rate but the higher tiers allowed them to get discounted prices to "cashout" their lp) was much better than the current model. The Cashout system required the militia to work together toward common goals. It removed an incentive for people to jump to the higher tier militia.
It was not stagnant. Honestly, I am surprised you can say that with a straight face. Leaving a system vulnerable of a few weeks is much better than no one carring at all about a system for years. The fact that militias would get their **** together to do these huge bunker bashes in a few days, and did it multiple times in the five months we had the cashout systems, demonstrates it was not stagnant.
But whatever this is not that big of a deal. Other issues with faction war are more pressing.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: 6- I was against station lockouts. Because i was lazy. There is no denying the extent that they have forced factions to work together and with their allies to bring about a content type that is simply not available anywhere else in EVE. Remove station lockouts and we go directly back to the;
"hey, theres someone in a a plex in system" "nevermind, it makes no difference if i stay docked or go fight"
Currently it doesn't matter. You can just wait until he leaves and then put your alt in an empty frigate to dplex it.
But if their getting the system contested meant that the enemy militia could all of a sudden dock in that system, then it would mean something. You would no longer think its fine to let him finish the plex. You would want to get out there and try to kill him. Because if you didn't you might find the enemy militia all of a sudden shows up in mass with lots of ships stockpiled in your station and you no longer have the upper hand in that system. What level of contested a system would need to be for both sides to dock is negotiable. But the current all or nothing system is just blob inducing and creates the problem thanatos pointed to. Why drive our enemies away when we want pvp?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|

Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1409
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 19:31:25 -
[20] - Quote
Dr darkside wrote:1) OMG cant believe ur still banging on bout npc intel channel
2)make missions like burners therefore you have to fit kinda a pvp fit and should hold your own. leave the becons detectable to all but reduce LP payout.
3)Inferno nearly broke the game people in bombers doing riskless pve even out incomed lvl5 mission runners who have to commit a carrier or shiny stuff (thats fkd up in risk v reward) also the over plex and bashes sucked big time.. Yes they were also stagnent caldaris mashed over gals cos everyone dogpiled there i think gals may have managed 1 or 2 cashouts.. minmatar was even worse the only reason amarr got a cashout was because nulli joined and flipped bunkers with supers in 1 night and even they quit at T4... i also remember people making false corps in the other side just to flip systems so it could be farmed back again.... (broken as ****)
4) concerning ogb ccps sub level is dropping atm i dont think they would risk alot more unsubs because of usless alts either that or it will go bk to the old way of falcon alts
5) station lockouts are great and are conflict drivers imo you want the option of multiple reships through out the region then fight for the right to it
OMG it's a forum alt posting in warfare and tactics.
1) yes I still recomend giving players intel because faction war sov is still won by rabbit plexers. I will continue to bang on about better intel tools for pvpers as long as that is the case.
2) you either never ran a burner mission or your never pvped. If you want to claim otherwise, mr. forum alt, then please show us the burner mission fits that you think are also good pvp fits.
3)Amarr was already on the way to a cashout before nulli came. Also the amarr didn't really have an issue with fielding the firepower to flip but I think nulli, for security reasons, wanted to do the flip themselves. I think the war zone cal and gallente flipped four times and caldari was about to do another flip when ccp screwed them over with the patch. Having the war zone flip flop 4 times in 5 months is anything but stagnant. There is no question that the payouts in inferno were too large. But that was not a result of the cashout system itself. They made everything in the lp store like 1/8th the cost when you were at tier 5 - lp and isk. And that was when fw lp went for about 5k isk per lp. That was too much obviously. They could still employ the system to get people active in the sov war (to get rid of the lp that is building in their wallets) but not make it so dramatic. This would address the issue raised in the thread where someone suggested we only unlock certain items at a higher tier. That is it would give militias incentives to do at least an occassional war zone push.
4) It's true removing the cancer might involve some short term pain. But if it ever wants to be healthy that is the best thing to do. I think everyone recognizes that. The only reason to leave it in is if ccp wants to sell eve. Which I do not believe is the case. They will get rid of ogb. I would just like to see if plexes could sort of be like seperate systems so if you don't bring your booster in the plex you don't get the boosts. It seems silly that they only allow frigates in novice plexes but really they let the benefits of a Strategic cruiser in those plexes.
5) Did you say fight for the right to dock? Or do you mean have my stabbed alts orbit buttons for the right to it?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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|

Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1409
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 19:59:40 -
[21] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Come see how well your stabbed alt works at helping you dock in any of the stations that i have ships in.
Thanks for the invite. But I think I would rather go to a power point presentation on ball cancer than play FW alt plexing games.
Maybe ask these guys: 1. Orn Lorn 2. Monk-Black fast 3. xFleuryx
Last I checked ccp's api dump they were the top vp gainers in all of faction war in the past week. Obviously they must be good pvpers so you might want to check their killboards and get an idea of how they fit their ships.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|

Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1409
|
Posted - 2015.10.21 21:55:44 -
[22] - Quote
Cheeswrinkle Ongrard wrote: little off topic here but I have been wondering for a long time now how you are able to check the vp gain on ppl care to explain?
https://api.eveonline.com/eve/FacWarTopStats.xml.aspx
There are 2 problems with this 1) afaik if you cross plex you don't register as getting vp. 2)Each plex is worth 20 vp so if one pilot does a plex he gets 20 vp. If 20 pilots do a plex then they each get 20 vp.
It used to be you would get 100 vp per plex but since inferno it is only 20 vp per plex. VP is what decides how contested a system is. They wanted to slow things down for inferno.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|

Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1410
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 19:26:59 -
[23] - Quote
Overall the lp store is an isk sink, and fw missions are likely a net isk sink. E.g., Running 2 level 4 missions pays about 8 mill isk and 100k lp. Cashing out the 100k lp will usually mean paying more than 8 mill isk to the npc lp store.
But FW is killing the lp stores. LP payouts need to be reduced. I would suggest something along these lines:
All plexing be at current tier 2 payouts. Plexing pay would not change based on the tier a faction is at.
If your faction is at tier 5 mission payouts should be the current tier 3 payouts. If your faction is at tier 4 the missions should pay out at the current tier 2 level. If you faction is at tier 3 or lower they would pay out at the current tier 1 level. This would increase the pay of plexing relative to missioning.
It would also create a natural balance. As one faction gained sov/tiers more people would mission for that faction. Missioning does not effect sov but it would eventually decrease the value of that lp allowing the other factions to have an incentive for their pilots to plex.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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|

Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1410
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 23:22:32 -
[24] - Quote
Sero
Your post made me chuckle. I think most of the people who couldn't stand the farm wars left. The notion that throwing npcs at FW farmers will hinder them is about as bad as the idea that throwing seeds at regular farmers will hinder them.
I'm not sure its that people "adapted" as much as the people who don't mind that faction war involves alts in stabbed or empty frigates are all that is left and continuing to join. I used to be more passionate about the game but years of ccp promises remaining unfulfilled - such as better intel tools, and timer rollbacks has made me more detached.
So I am not surprised that most people in faction war are fine with it, or pretty much gave up trying to help. There is no doubt that warfare and tactics is pretty much empty compared to how it was 3 years ago when ccp made some of these promises.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1410
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:57:15 -
[25] - Quote
I do think fw missions need to be nerfed relative to plexing - as I posted. But that will not fix faction war.
More lp here and less there will not change the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem with faction war is this:
You will gain more sov for your militia if you get 4 alts rabbit plexing than you will if you go out with a pvp ship and fight for plexes.
As long as such boring gameplay is how you win sov then the sov game will remain broken. It doesn't matter if your add rewards to plexing or take them away. Nor does it matter what tier system you have, cashout, or current. As long as the bolded statement remains true fw sov will be broken.
CCP knows how to fix the above and they even said they would do it. But that was about 3 years ago and they never followed through. At the last csm meeting they never even mentioned either fix. 1) timer rollbacks and 2) better intel tools. In particular real time intel about where plexes are being run so that organized pvpers can respond before the plex is captured.
If we had real time intel about where plexes were being run then the guy with 4 rabbit plexing accounts would quickly find his alts are getting killed or chased out before he can finish a plex. If he is killed or constantly chased out then he would lose his time spent. It would no longer be as cost effective as simply fitting your ship as best you can for pvp and choosing to stay and fight. The bolded statement would no longer be true and faction war would be fixed.
It wouldn't take any lp, isk to do it. It would just be a matter of those 2 changes and fighting for faction war sov would be a fun and challenging game.
This has been the case for years, and for years I see new faces saying we just need this bit of candy or we need to take away this bit of candy. (Yes I say that too because some changes would be better, but I want to make it clear here, such changes won't actually fix the root of the problem.) I hear people ask for more benefits and consequences. But tying benefits and conseqences to a boring mechanic will never fix the ultimate problem and really only makes it worse.
CCP has given fw so much treasure the weight of it crushed all of the lp stores. All of them, including those that aren't even fw lp stores! Yet the sov game is still broken. I know this will fall on deaf ears. More players will say we need to have this or that candy. And CCP will continue to tweak the candy like they have been for years. But at base fw will remain broken.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1419
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 16:45:51 -
[26] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:I really do struggle to grasp what you think is so broken about FW.
I put it in bold and underlined it. Again this is what is broken with faction war: You will gain more sov for your militia if you get 4 alts rabbit plexing than you will if you go out with a pvp ship and fight for plexes.
I really think the more people think about that, the more they will understand the root of the problem.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: One day its boosts, ...
Better fix to farmers, which really is the only slight problem at the moment, would be to force them into pvp fits. The subtlest way to do this would be to simply not allow stabbed or cloak capable ships to run a timer.
Removing OGB would help the whole game including fw. But ogb are not why faction war in particular has always been broken.
Stabs really are not necessary to rabbit plex. Neither is a cloak. Even if CCP did those changes the bold and underlined statement would remain true. So faction war would still be broken.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: Not to say there are not other things that can be improved on in FW. But constantly saying that every slight or non-problem 'BREAKS' FW seems like angsty alarmism and is simply embarrassing to read.
I donGÇÖt say that. There is a difference between saying something like nerfing fw mission pay would improve faction war, and saying the fw mission pay GÇ£breaksGÇ¥ faction war.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:As for making it fun to fight for FW occupancy, That really is a personal choice that you can make right now. I can undock and go plex uuna for a pretty boring time. Or i can undock and go plex hasmijaala / okkamon / kehjari / rakapas and have a fight within a minute or two of turning up.
Sure you can go get some fights in plexes. I used to enjoy that, and it was good fun. But if you decide you want to do pvp with random dudes around a plex you will not be gaining fw sov nearly as much as the guy with 4 alts rabbit plexing. So ultimately pvpers stop caring about sov. And that is why the sov system is stagnant and broken.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: if you are under the impression that you can make people care as much about a non-station dead end system as they do for their home-base, not only are you mistaken, but nothing you have never made a suggestion that would make that happen.
If a game is fun and challenging then more people will care about being good at it. If a game is a boring grind then fewer people will care about it. That is all I am saying. Maybe you disagree.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1419
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 19:08:47 -
[27] - Quote
"Rabbit plexing" means people who run plexes with the intent to run if anyone comes or at least have no intent on fighting. I don't mean it derogatory. In fact as I said it is the best way to gain sov in faction war. When I was interested in winning sov I did it myself. Unlike you I do not blame players for playing the game according to the mechanics. I blame ccp for designing the game in a way that optimizes boring play.
Sure some people might think rabbit plexing 4 alts is great fun. They may think I am wrong that fw would be better if it was not the optimal way to win sov. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I however am fairly convinced *more* people would agree with me. Namely if the bolded and underlined statement was false then faction war would be better. What do you think? Would fw be better if ccp made it so the bolded and underlined statement were no longer true?
I use the term "rabbit plexer" as opposed to "farmer." "Farmer" implies that people are doing plexing for lp or isk gain. We had rabbit plexing before lp payouts. I don't think most plexers who d-plex relatively uncontested systems in empty frigates are "farmers" (because I tend to doubt they do it for the lp) but I would call them rabbits.
Stopping any sort of pay for plexing would end "farming" but it wouldn't end "rabbit plexing." And so fw sov would still be broken.
You can put your ship pretty far away from the warp in so even if you did not have local, dscan, or stabs you would still likely get away before you were pointed. Keep in mind that lots of times people with stabbed ships purposely let you target them so you can see its pretty futile to keep chasing them. If they could not fit stabs they would just warp off before you could get a point.
As for what is and is not "rabbit plexing" there may be some gray areas. Where you want to draw the line about when someone fits the definition of a "rabbit plexer" or a "farmer" is a metaphysical question I will not claim to resolve.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1420
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 21:14:43 -
[28] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
You also just fell into the same trap cerain often does. Points out a problem and offers no solution. Simply incanting things like 'introduce a mechanic' or 'ccp should fix it' is no help. .
I am sure everyone who read the thread knows I very clearly stated what I think will solve the problem. If any non-trolls think that is not the case I will try to help them understand.
Lots of people can agree there is a problem, without agreeing to any particular solution. At least they agree with the first step of the logic - that there is a problem.
They might also disagree with your claim that what we mean by "rabbit plexer" or "farmer" is so vague that it is meaningless. There might be some gray area at the fringes of the term but it is clear enough for many people who have tried to pvp in fw space to understand what we mean. You just try to derail every topic you can.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1423
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 15:38:38 -
[29] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote: Here in the amarr/minmatar zone, we have 70 systems. Right now there are 71 pilots in our militia chat. We'd need every guy online to be at the keyboard and spread out to a different system to fight off the farmers.
That's not going to happen....
If we had rollbacks and real time intel on where plexes were being hit, 7-10 active organized pvpers could cover the entire amarr warzone. Each pvper could cover a section and they could effectively make sure most plexes were not captured without a fight. It would not be long before rabbit plexing was so inefficient, it would disappear. Faction war sov would finally be fixed.
Of course both militias would have more than that number covering the warzone and the pvp per plex would skyrocket.
Madrax573 wrote: There is now way to 'encourage' people to stay and fight, especially outside of their perceived engagement envelope, simple as that.
What engagement envelope do people who fly empty frigates have? What about those who fit stabs? You see people fit their ship the most effective way they can, for what they want to accomplish. If they want to win sov in null sec they do not fit stabs or fly empty ships. If they want to win sov in faction war they do. Why? Because of ccp's design decisions.
CCP can and should make the mechanics in faction war such that people who plex expect they will need to pvp in order to gain space. That is what the 2 changes they promised, would do. But they still have not implemented them.
Madrax573 wrote: Farmer have NEVER, I'll repeat that for effect, NEVER won a system that a pvp group want to hold. It's not about being able to hold the entire warzone it about being able to hold your own in the warzone. .
You have a very null sec mindset. In null sec this sort of works because it is entirely player based so the people who fight for a small bit of space donGÇÖt need to share it with the rest of new eden. Faction war will never be that way. Anyone can join the factions and reap the rewards that a small number of players create. That is why there really isnGÇÖt much gain to holding your own system/constellation in faction war. Yes you can dock. Big deal leave faction war and you can dock there too. If they gave faction war players some big advantages like anomalies in their upgraded systems like null sec guess what? 1) pirates could sit and dock in those systems and kill the ratters.
Well then lets say ccp gave faction war some faction war only systems where only they could dock. I still donGÇÖt think people would be very safe in low sec especially if they do the upcoming 4 way war. But lets assume it is as safe as null sec. People would just put alts in that faction farm the anomalies that others earned. Unlike null sec sov players can't purge parasites out of faction war. Once you understand these inherent limitations you will see that faction war needs to go in a different direction.
Applying the null sec view of GÇ£let me keep my little bit of spaceGÇ¥ is doomed when applied to faction war. CCP needs to understand these limitations. But faction war is not just limited due to this. Since the consequences in fw are not as large as losing space in null, CCP can make it so that faction war people can win sov much easier and quicker than what they need to do in null sec. They can make winning sov much more fun and involve much less drudgery. They could make it so the entire front is won by the side that is best at pvp of a variety of types. That is why Faction war has so much promise. Sadly they still have a design where the side that that fields the most rabbit plexers wins the most space. IMO that is drudgery.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1423
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Posted - 2015.10.26 20:16:38 -
[30] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:
You still dishing out propaganda on the free intel BS idea and that farmers flip systems?
I am one of the few who ever gives data in these discussions. I encourage anyone interested in this topic to take a look at ccp's api dump. Look at the top vp gainers for faction for the week and then look at their killboard for the week. Of course people who don't mind rabbit plexing, say all those plexes rabbits run don't matter. But they are simply wrong. There is a huge amount of plexes being run in empty figates and stabbed ships. And forcing them to put guns on their ship or forcing them not to use stabs won't really stem the tide. They are fitting stabs because rabbit plexing is the most efficient way to get sov. Until that changes they will just use other evasion techniques and tools.
CCP is aware of the data as well - or at least they used to be. That is why they said they would give us timer rollbacks and better intel tools.
Estella Osoka wrote: 1. Map already tells you what systems have people in them.
2. Haven't seen a farmer yet destroy an iHub, and that is what causes systems to flip.
1) Who cares about intel that a person is in a system? That tells us almost nothing. It's clear that in order to reduce the effectiveness of rabbits we need better intel tools. Specifically I think we need to get real time intel of where plex timers are running.
I don't know what you mean by "free" intel. I don't care if we have to pay for it or if it comes free. If you have to buy an implant or something that gives this intel its fine with me. But either way players need this intel.
I don't think the rats in the plexes should be harder. That would just force pve fits and discourage fights. CCP should just give players the tools they need to defend their space.
2) See Templar's comment. Destroying an ihub is miniscule compared to the work of getting the system vulnerable.
Estella Osoka wrote:
You don't have to stay in one system and guard it. It's called watching the map, roaming to systems that are getting over a certain percentage, then plex them down. Once the Navy Maulus is released, hunting farmers may well become a thing.
People who don't want to hunt farmers, counter plex farmers, or make an effort to catch farmers are the problem. CCP has given you the tools, people just refuse to use them because it actually takes EFFORT.
Faction war has been out for about 7 years. And rabbit plexing is still the most effective way to gain sov. I think its time to admit the tools we have are not sufficient.
If it makes you feel better you can blame the players for playing the game effectively for their ends. But that is not about to change. So unless ccp wants sov to forever be won by rabbits they need to change the mechanics.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1423
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Posted - 2015.10.27 00:23:20 -
[31] - Quote
Madrax573 wrote:Simple fact is that you can never force people to fight who don't want to fight outside of catching the unwary or careless.
This is as it should be.
Nobody is saying someone should be forced to fight. But those who never fight should not be the best at winning sov.
Madrax573 wrote: In reality there is more than enough intel tool available if you want to find stuff out. Just takes a little teen tiny bit of effort to get it. Once again as it should be.
No you can't and you never could. If you want to gain sov then you are best off getting several alt accounts and rabbit plexing. Those are the people who gain the most vp.
Madrax573 wrote:Really people....farmers farm everywhere in eve yet the biggest whiners are FW player who think they have a monopoly on how you should play in FW. Get over it 
Like I already said, there will be people who like the idea that the most effective way to win sov is to get multiple alts and have them rabbit plex. I however am of the opinion that more people would enjoy faction war sov, if it was better done by fighting as opposed to running.
I would also point out that FW is the only place where you actually take over the other sides sov by farming. Constantly running and never fighting is actually the most effective way to gain sov in faction war. That is why faction war sov is seen as a joke by most people who are familiar with it.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1423
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Posted - 2015.10.27 01:21:07 -
[32] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Farming isnt such a problem since inferno was fixed.
The data says getting as many rabbit plexing alts as you can, is still the best way to win sov.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: No one expects anyone in FW to do anything. You choose what you want to do, and do it. remember to keep it realistic for fear of disappointing yourself.
Like I said some people are happy with the current mechanic where you get alts rabbit plexing to win sov. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
But let's be clear what you are supporting when you constantly lobby against timer rollbacks and better intel tools. These changes would only hurt rabbit plexing for the win. Your position only helps rabbit plexing.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1426
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Posted - 2015.11.01 21:46:54 -
[33] - Quote
Crosi The issue of lockouts came up before inferno but players repeatedly rejected the idea because they did not want to drive away pvp. Now we see that lockouts are a mixed bag. In this very thread people are saying they don't push systems because they don't want to drive away pvp.
Before inferno players asked for consequences and incentives for plexing and system control. CCP delivered that by giving lp for plexes and the tier system. This has definitely invigorated faction war.
As to the rest: 1) CCP said they would do things - like rollbacks. And now it seems they just completely forgot. Does anyone know what happened? Did they decide it would be to hard to code or something? Is the new team even aware of these promises?
2) We have already been down the route where npcs do the work in plexes. CCP ultimately (and IMO properly) decided that npcs should have very little effect on plexes because they get in the way of pvp. Now I am afraid they are going back on this so that Faction war can be a test bed for some new carebear mechanic they are working on. The fact that they often use Faction war as a "test bed" for other parts of the game (and generally how they treat faction war) makes it clear to me that they do not appreciate the potential of faction war.
EVE needs exciting wars. And given null secs contentment with farming anomolies null sec seems less and less likely to provide that. CCP should fully pursue all of its options toward this end including faction war.
3) It is difficult to understand what their vision for faction war is now. In the past they said they wanted faction plexing in particular to be a pvp activity. But now its unclear. They seem content with the rabbit plexing that plaques faction war. But if we assume they have a vision for faction war, what statistics are they looking at to see if they are achieving their vision? IMO they should look at the amount of pvp that happens in a plex per plex captured. There would probably be other statistics to look at that but that would be an important one.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1427
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Posted - 2015.11.02 13:58:03 -
[34] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Telling people to grow up for complaining about terrible mechanics undoing years of progress is not very mature mate. I know you dont plex a great deal, or even log on that much. But dont expect everyone else to be apathetic about bad mechanics just because sugar kyle is the love of you elife and you seem to want a chance at sniffing her csm seat..
Crosi Sugar kyle posted the changes she wanted to push on faction war on her blog. Perhaps if you learned how to intereact with people like a normal human being, you could have posted some constructive feedback.
You have to understand that not many people read these forums anymore. No doubt it is because the amount of vitriol some people dish out makes it not worth anyones time or energy.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: And cerain. Yes, there was concerns with station lock outs, my own included. But generally they were looked forward to and in retrospect a good thing for the type and volume of pvp in fw. Perhaps it was a bigger deal for amarr since such a large portion of the playerbase consised of alpha machs with carier support camping stations? Lol.
Also, no one said we dont push systems to safeguard pvp.
You have no clue about he issues the amarr faced. Minmatar had a huge number of systems and they bugged. You could leave a cloaky ship in a plex and they would stop spawning. So it was *impossible* for us to take back the warzone before they made it take 5xs as long to take a system. I and others in amarr asked if ccp (through petitions and forum posts) could please fix this bug before they implemented this the huge inferno consequences. But they refused. So when we would try to capture a system suddenly the plexes would stop spawning.
It's true some people wanted the station lockouts but on the whole every time it was brought up more people voiced opposition. The opposition centered around the idea that if you want fights then don't drive your enemies away. I think this concern was proven correct. And was stated by Thanatos Marathon:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Having said that, it would be a terrible idea. In fact, we don't even want to take Caldari home systems. Killing off all your targets is a great way to end up with no targets.
- Than
Crosi Wesdo wrote: I alays got the impression you think fw is broken unless one side is incentivised to keep their boot on the other factions neck. The fact this is not the case, but is just a choice, is exactly why it isnt.
This comment makes no sense. Having station lockouts makes it much harder for the smaller faction to operate.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1429
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Posted - 2015.11.03 02:21:38 -
[35] - Quote
We shouldn't make evasion plexing easier by making each plex shoter. But the number of plexes you need to run to make the system vulnerable is too long IMO.
When inferno hit they made it so you had to capture 5xs as many net plex to capture a system. (they reduced the vp of each plex from 100 to 20) I think they should take a look at that.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV Cede Nullis
1443
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Posted - 2015.12.02 19:22:40 -
[36] - Quote
Have any faction war changes made any of the roadmaps ccp put out? The one I checked had nothing.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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