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Rena Risalo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.05.16 21:14:05 -
[31] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Rena Risalo wrote: Please learn astrophysics. And quantum physics.
In that case please feel free to show exactly why it's impossible for star systems to form in common patterns. Along with a non time travelling explanation for the aforementioned similar star systems given the depth of project compasses mapping and positioning data using several different forms of verification all giving J space a real space location relative to the Eve cluster.
If it were as common as you say then we would see duplicate systems in k-space all the time. Show me a bunch of k-space systems that have the same kinds of stars, moons, planets distances etc as one another and i might take you seriously.
As for atomic structures electron clouds are highly chaotic, subject to ionization etc and the paths the electrons take in each atom is different. If you have two oxygen atoms the electrons in the cloud would be in completely different places in different orbits at different times. While both remaining oxygen atoms. The probability of finding two oxygen atoms that arent somehow linked via quantum entanglement having all of their electrons having the same orbit is astronomical.
So the chance of a solar system developing the same star with the same number of planets and moons not just once but over and over and over again is again astronomical in odds. Finding one or a few matching systems could be waved away as coincidence but not over and over and over again having each wormhole space system having a new eden parallel. What you are proposing is not only absurd wishful thinking, it borders on lunacy in the face of the evidence |
Andi Onthatop
Snowlodoto
2
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Posted - 2015.05.16 21:31:34 -
[32] - Quote
Was brainstorming some and had a thought.
What if when a connection spawns between a two systems, a connection spawns between the mirrors of those two systems?
No real reason to think this, but it wouldn't be hard to verify if you have a hole whose static you can roll, but one would need access to the hole list of mirrors. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2171
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Posted - 2015.05.16 21:36:25 -
[33] - Quote
I'm aware of the nature of atoms. However you have neglected to account for their tendency towards shells. Additionally Looking Glass shows a significant number of discrepancies between systems, orbital radii change, planet compositions change, yet somehow retain identical mass and radii themselves despite a massive change in planetary shift...... And the time travel theory is utterly unsupported by any real evidence. It's an interesting co-incidence, but to leap from 'both planets have the same moons' to 'time travel every time we go backwards & forwards' is truly incredible.
If they can produce some independently verifiable science, rather than just survey data, such as a way to show the time shift, then I'll start to take things more seriously.
However we do have data that gives us a real space location of J systems, of which several methods of observation have all generated similar results, including two entirely different groups coming to the same results. Which strongly suggests it's simply a normal wormhole that connects us there. After all I don't recall people claiming gates can be used for time travel, and gates use wormholes as well. |
Radical Divinity
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
5
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Posted - 2015.05.16 22:25:56 -
[34] - Quote
Perhaps when a pilot maneuvers/jumps through a wormhole, they are in fact entering into a simulation. The act of jumping uploads the condensed meta-data of the pilot which, for all intents and purposes, appears to be a seamless transition from one system to another with the wormhole serving as an advanced version of our brain scan technology. I find it disquieting that our behavior within Anoikis (probing, scanning, harvesting data and resources while not engaging in what one could call diplomatic dialogue with the natives) is parallel to the Drifter's behavior currently within our own system.
If Anoikis is a virtual environment, is it an environment to study and establish patterns of communication from alien/foreign civilizations? Are they now merely expressing a dialogue themselves by mirroring our behavior? |
Jaro Essa
Dahkur Forge
29
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Posted - 2015.05.17 00:10:19 -
[35] - Quote
Will Gauss wrote:Quattras Peione wrote:Second, the name Usi - a system out of which I operated - stuck out, and I noted that there are two J-systems tagged as exact matches for it. I did not notice if this was the case for any others, but it only adds further questions. You are correct. Looking at these two Anoikis systems, they appear to be mirrors of each other as well. In two years of looking at this we didn't notice that. In five hours of it being out in the public you did. This right here is why we just released what we had. J145337J161257
Close. All three systems share the same number of planets and the same distribution of moons, but while J145337's planets are is similar to those in Usi (J145337 III is barren while Usi III is temperate, and J145337 VII is oceanic while Usi III is lava), J161257 is substantially different. The five outer planets are the same type, but the inner three are storm, temperate, lava instead of lava, barren, temperate.
Moreover, J161257 is affected by a nearby red giant, with all the consequent effects on capsuleer systems as seen in other systems affected in such a way, yet J145337 remains untouched. |
Graelyn
Tzedakah Aegis Militia
750
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Posted - 2015.05.17 00:28:26 -
[36] - Quote
Ah...
Hrm.
Cardinal Graelyn
Owner/Operator, "The Summit"
AM Conclave, Speaker
Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113
"Am I losing touch? No. It is the children who are wrong."
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Odeva Pawen
Aideron Robotics
40
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Posted - 2015.05.17 00:38:06 -
[37] - Quote
Radical Divinity wrote:Perhaps when a pilot maneuvers/jumps through a wormhole, they are in fact entering into a simulation. The act of jumping uploads the condensed meta-data of the pilot which, for all intents and purposes, appears to be a seamless transition from one system to another with the wormhole serving as an advanced version of our brain scan technology. I find it disquieting that our behavior within Anoikis (probing, scanning, harvesting data and resources while not engaging in what one could call diplomatic dialogue with the natives) is parallel to the Drifter's behavior currently within our own system.
If Anoikis is a virtual environment, is it an environment to study and establish patterns of communication from alien/foreign civilizations? Are they now merely expressing a dialogue themselves by mirroring our behavior?
But how would that explain the existence of sleeper materials in known space? If your theory were true, we would not be able to bring material out of these wormhole systems. No, I believe that the explanation to be simpler than that.
Overheat Keyboards! Load Rage posts! Prepare for a long, seething, back and forth about irrelevant things!
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Radical Divinity
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
5
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Posted - 2015.05.17 01:25:06 -
[38] - Quote
Quote:But how would that explain the existence of sleeper materials in known space? If your theory were true, we would not be able to bring material out of these wormhole systems. No, I believe that the explanation to be simpler than that.
You're completely correct. Without going into extremes of possible absurdity and manipulation, the more simple answer is no doubt the correct one. It's far safer to err on the side of humility and accept that our fundamental understanding of the Universe may not be correct. |
Will Gauss
TerminalDogma Stain Confederation
16
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Posted - 2015.05.17 11:16:43 -
[39] - Quote
Following a suggestion by Frenjo Borkstar of Arek'Jaalan, I altered the matching script to flag systems which are in Jovian space. I was surprised to find that he had been on to something.
This is a full dump of the entire matching set. |
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2015.05.17 11:32:44 -
[40] - Quote
Does it mean that drifters are future us who lack biomass for their new clones?
But really, I believe that the God made our Universe on principle of causality, which would make time travel impossible.
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Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp Nox Draconum
47
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Posted - 2015.05.17 11:43:54 -
[41] - Quote
What of the un-matched systems?
Might they match local systems in known-space to which we do not currently have stargates?
If so, might we be able to reach these systems if we develop the ability ourselves?
These systems might hold further clues to our history previously undisturbed by looters. |
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
80
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Posted - 2015.05.17 11:57:18 -
[42] - Quote
I have just though, what if...
it isn't actually time travel, but rather wormholes are opening towards systems that are similar to ours. Just look at this: these wormholes don't lead to all random systems all around our galaxy, but to a small set.
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If you are a roleplayer, or want to learn about roleplay, please join "Out of Character" and "Intergalactic Summit" channels in game,
Lets show CCP that there are many roleplayers still here, and we want more Live Events!!
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Will Gauss
TerminalDogma Stain Confederation
17
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Posted - 2015.05.17 12:35:34 -
[43] - Quote
Furthermore, based on the observations made by the larger community, I got curious about the multiple matches some were noticing. I took the full dump linked above, and wrote a script that analyzes it to count the frequency by which each system shows up as a match. I was surprised to find that frequency appears logarithmic. I might conjecture that the frequency by which a given system is predictable this way. Anyway, without further conjecture, the data:
Portable Document Format version of the plot
Spreadsheet version of the plot
The graph itself, if uninterested in the whole spreadsheet. |
Frenjo Borkstar
Viziam
70
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Posted - 2015.05.17 13:06:38 -
[44] - Quote
Since this report was released, i've been working extensively with Mr. Gauss.
The reason that New Eden is visible from Anoikis, is the fact that quantum entanglement of our fluid routers means, that theoretically, they'd be entangled through space OR time, and even if you did travel through time the particles would still remain entangled, and so it would appear, that even if you did move through time (as well as space relative to where New Eden is currently) then you'd get the 'echo' of the current New Eden travelling through time.
But I am currently working extensively with the TerminalDogma team, and am coming up with some interesting results.
Dr. Frenjo Borkstar,
Project Lead for Arek'Jaalan's Project Salus.
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Farlas Ibana
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.05.17 13:45:33 -
[45] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Rena Risalo wrote: Please learn astrophysics. And quantum physics.
In that case please feel free to show exactly why it's impossible for star systems to form in common patterns. Along with a non time travelling explanation for the aforementioned similar star systems given the depth of project compasses mapping and positioning data using several different forms of verification all giving J space a real space location relative to the Eve cluster.
Star systems are currently thought to form from a mass of dust and gas collapsing under its own gravity in the form of a Primitive Solar Nebular.
In order to have two identical systems form independently of each other, the initial PSN would have to be of the same size, the same mass, contain the same constituent materials, and even more unlikely - would need to have those materials with the same spatial distribution AND gravitational collapse effects.
In order to reach this stage, the PSN would then have had to have been formed by the supernova of Identical stars, with identical mass, burn times, and element production cycles. There are simply too many variables which would need to be the same to have any kind of natural formation or repetitive 'clumping' of matter.
Whilst in an infinite universe, this repetition of events is possible, maybe even likely - the chances of having 2 individual systems form identically in a similar area of space which are then connected is just mind-bendingly improbable - let alone a large number of duplicate systems.
There is no way this is a naturally occurring phenomenon. |
Rena Risalo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2015.05.17 14:18:16 -
[46] - Quote
Farlas Ibana wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Rena Risalo wrote: Please learn astrophysics. And quantum physics.
In that case please feel free to show exactly why it's impossible for star systems to form in common patterns. Along with a non time travelling explanation for the aforementioned similar star systems given the depth of project compasses mapping and positioning data using several different forms of verification all giving J space a real space location relative to the Eve cluster. Star systems are currently thought to form from a mass of dust and gas collapsing under its own gravity in the form of a Primitive Solar Nebular. In order to have two identical systems form independently of each other, the initial PSN would have to be of the same size, the same mass, contain the same constituent materials, and even more unlikely - would need to have those materials with the same spatial distribution AND gravitational collapse effects. In order to reach this stage, the PSN would then have had to have been formed by the supernova of Identical stars, with identical mass, burn times, and element production cycles. There are simply too many variables which would need to be the same to have any kind of natural formation or repetitive 'clumping' of matter. Whilst in an infinite universe, this repetition of events is possible, maybe even likely - the chances of having 2 individual systems form identically in a similar area of space which are then connected is just mind-bendingly improbable - let alone a large number of duplicate systems. There is no way this is a naturally occurring phenomenon.
I see people have started to take the potatoes out of their heads.
Now we are getting somewhere. |
Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp Nox Draconum
47
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Posted - 2015.05.17 16:04:09 -
[47] - Quote
Will Gauss wrote:
I notice they all happen to be shattered systems. Our matching script relies on the star as a starting point, so the events that lead to the shattering of a system would throw off detection. TerminalDogma, with input from the public will be focusing next on a method by which to somehow match these systems and to analyze them for matches.
Might we not use their relative positions to otherwise catalogued systems to predict the also relative locations of un-connected local systems to systems that are connected in our current gate network? |
Will Gauss
TerminalDogma Stain Confederation
18
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Posted - 2015.05.17 16:11:34 -
[48] - Quote
Feu dAstres wrote:Will Gauss wrote:
I notice they all happen to be shattered systems. Our matching script relies on the star as a starting point, so the events that lead to the shattering of a system would throw off detection. TerminalDogma, with input from the public will be focusing next on a method by which to somehow match these systems and to analyze them for matches.
Might we not use their relative positions to otherwise catalogued systems to predict the also relative locations of un-connected local systems to systems that are connected in our current gate network?
From what I understand of the question, the old Galileo method of using starbases to measure distance no longer works as of when the shattered systems were discovered. So, we have no idea where physically the shattered systems are and welcome any suggestions as to how this could be determined. |
Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp Nox Draconum
47
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Posted - 2015.05.17 16:40:07 -
[49] - Quote
How ... inconvenient ...
We will need to direct our employees to construct our own very large arrays and proceed to develop mapping capabilties and databases loyal to capsuleers and not under the control of The Inner Circle.
I have heard the phrase "That's classified." too many times. |
Halfrek Foley
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
15
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Posted - 2015.05.17 17:54:24 -
[50] - Quote
Rena Risalo wrote:Esteban Dragonovic wrote:Rosal Milag wrote: J-space was created by some entity for the purpose of planning a galactic invasion.
Yes, there is the massive costs and astronomical, no pun intended, scale of materials needed. If you can create star systems, why would you need to invade new ones? Building them just to simulate invading them is simply not cost efficient. Exactly. What remains is however shocking, whatever the truth turns out to be. Wormholes to a galaxy that just happens to connect to systems that have almost exact matches to our own? Thats too much of a coincidence for me to discount time travel/parallel universe idea. Nothing else really explains it. One thing we could do is try to see where the shattered wormhole systems parallel to (im betting near carolines star) , and where in the j space the eve gate wound up.
New Eden system would be a parallel to J130854. |
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Rena Risalo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2015.05.17 18:31:55 -
[51] - Quote
Halfrek Foley wrote:Rena Risalo wrote:Esteban Dragonovic wrote:Rosal Milag wrote: J-space was created by some entity for the purpose of planning a galactic invasion.
Yes, there is the massive costs and astronomical, no pun intended, scale of materials needed. If you can create star systems, why would you need to invade new ones? Building them just to simulate invading them is simply not cost efficient. Exactly. What remains is however shocking, whatever the truth turns out to be. Wormholes to a galaxy that just happens to connect to systems that have almost exact matches to our own? Thats too much of a coincidence for me to discount time travel/parallel universe idea. Nothing else really explains it. One thing we could do is try to see where the shattered wormhole systems parallel to (im betting near carolines star) , and where in the j space the eve gate wound up. New Eden system would be a parallel to J130854 and J122331.
They do not seem parallel. New eden system has one planet, J130854 has 7 as does J122331. However J122331 and J130854 seem to be parallels to *each other*. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2185
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 20:10:19 -
[52] - Quote
Farlas Ibana wrote: Whilst in an infinite universe, this repetition of events is possible, maybe even likely - the chances of having 2 individual systems form identically in a similar area of space which are then connected is just mind-bendingly improbable - let alone a large number of duplicate systems.
There is no way this is a naturally occurring phenomenon.
Except they aren't identical. They have the same planet counts and same moon counts. And vaguely the same orbitals. They aren't the same materials on each planet, they aren't identical orbits. So.... they are 'similar'. To actually use the correct word.
Also Thera at least has been measured using Aura's route indicators as a guide and seems to be in the same area of space as the other systems, a mere 1200ly from us. |
Farlas Ibana
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 00:13:39 -
[53] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Farlas Ibana wrote: Whilst in an infinite universe, this repetition of events is possible, maybe even likely - the chances of having 2 individual systems form identically in a similar area of space which are then connected is just mind-bendingly improbable - let alone a large number of duplicate systems.
There is no way this is a naturally occurring phenomenon.
Except they aren't identical. They have the same planet counts and same moon counts. And vaguely the same orbitals. They aren't the same materials on each planet, they aren't identical orbits. So.... they are 'similar'. To actually use the correct word. Also Thera at least has been measured using Aura's route indicators as a guide and seems to be in the same area of space as the other systems, a mere 1200ly from us.
Even so, the similarities are to close to be 'natural'. the previous explanation only put through the first two stages of system formation - and as such I was attempting to simplify the process, and yet show naturally formed similarities simply do not happen. The next stages of planetary development involve planetisimals, accretion and collision. We are basically talking about a game of cosmic pool with bits flying around the 'table', colliding and spinning off in all directions.
Again, there are just too many variables for similar systems of same number of planets and moons, relatively similar orbits. . . . . this added to the earlier requirements of the similarities in PSN. Its just not possible under every law of physics and planetary formation to have such matches occur naturally.
As for the 1200ly apart, it still pretty much in our own back yard when an average galaxy is approx 100,000 ly wide. |
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
725
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 15:00:39 -
[54] - Quote
Rena Risalo wrote:Halfrek Foley wrote:New Eden system would be a parallel to J130854 and J122331. They do not seem parallel. New eden system has one planet, J130854 has 7 as does J122331. However J122331 and J130854 seem to be parallels to *each other*. Look at the stars of those systems. and the first planet, and compare them with the New Eden system. I think it's plausible that they are theoretically as similar as the other "twins", and that the EVE Gate may have had something to do with the missing planets.
Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation
Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
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Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1277
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Posted - 2015.05.18 16:47:20 -
[55] - Quote
Will Gauss wrote:Jade Blackwind wrote:Will Gauss wrote:The Declassified ReportFor the safety of New Eden, I have approved the declassification of Project Looking Glass. Neither I nor any other TerminalDogma member will be taking questions at this time. Thank you. Interesting. But what about that simple fact that New Eden is observable from Anoikis? hehe If you guys can figure out an explanation for that, I'd love to see it and I'm looking forward to seeing what the larger scientific community does with this information.
That report (Project Compass 2.5) repeatedly goes on about basic trig, and never once gives any numbers that are not already known, nor even so much as a singel formula demonstrating any of what ti claims. It is completely lacking in any useful scientific or mathematic demonstration of its claim.
Furthermore, the indicators of arc on our visual overlay have only 90 degree indicators, no where near the kind of resolution required to measure fractions of degrees to the second decimal as the writer claims. Therefore any measurements taken in this manner are subject to gross margins of error, and can only be grouped into the realm of pure guess-work.
We also know that there are no fluid routers of any kind in w-space. Thus I can only conclude that Aura is using what information it has and simply outputting its best guess. In the electronics business, we have saying for this phenomenon; garbage in, garbage out.
On the other hand, if the k-space equivalent of J144956 were in a known location, then a temporally adjusted location with the gate jump distances indicated on he visual overlay would make sense. Unfortunately, J144956 was not in the appendix of matched systems.
OP, could we get that matching system in k-space?
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Rosal Milag
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
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Posted - 2015.05.18 19:55:10 -
[56] - Quote
Attribute the memory loss to boosters or quafe, but can't you still map the shattered wormholes by using a combination of Cynos and the capital navigation window? I don't have the experience to know if a cyno can light in a WH or if the navigation window will give any information for a fleet cyno that is impossible to get |
Will Gauss
TerminalDogma Stain Confederation
21
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Posted - 2015.05.19 22:01:53 -
[57] - Quote
Rosal Milag wrote:Attribute the memory loss to boosters or quafe, but can't you still map the shattered wormholes by using a combination of Cynos and the capital navigation window? I don't have the experience to know if a cyno can light in a WH or if the navigation window will give any information for a fleet cyno that is impossible to get If this is true I will love you forever because we have no method of mapping the shattered systems onto our existing Galileo map of the rest of Anoikis. I'm sending you 100M if this turns out to work. It'll take us a bit to get set up, but this is beautiful if it does. |
Andi Onthatop
Snowlodoto
2
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Posted - 2015.05.19 22:51:27 -
[58] - Quote
You said the shattered systems are currently unmatched.
I know that they have no moons, so you can't compare based on the moon numbers, however they do have orbit distances. Have you tried comparing just based on planet orbit distance? |
Stig Elendil
Lords of Fail
0
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Posted - 2015.05.23 02:57:12 -
[59] - Quote
Will Gauss wrote:Rosal Milag wrote:Attribute the memory loss to boosters or quafe, but can't you still map the shattered wormholes by using a combination of Cynos and the capital navigation window? I don't have the experience to know if a cyno can light in a WH or if the navigation window will give any information for a fleet cyno that is impossible to get If this is true I will love you forever because we have no method of mapping the shattered systems onto our existing Galileo map of the rest of Anoikis. I'm sending you 100M if this turns out to work. It'll take us a bit to get set up, but this is beautiful if it does.
I'm absolutely not a cyno specialist, i'm just a space traveler and went few times in wh. Once in a fleet i had the pleasure and honor to talk with the Fleet Commander that was kindly explaining how (in simple terms) a fleet was working and also the differences between wh (even if i knew few basics). But i asked him a simple question, or should say more a remark, to what he said to the few people that were there with me. it was that remark : "you mean it's impossible to have hotdrop there ?" and he answered me by the affirmative, no such military techniques possible in the wh. As i'm not myself a specialist i can't affirm 100% this is true but coming from a Fleet Commander i think it must be the case. Anyway it's raising others questions : is it possible to light a cyno from a wh to another one ? At the time of my question, shattered ones hadn't appeared and Thera wasn't accessible it could be interesting to test if lighting cyno in shattered ones is possible (of course going to them or just between them) and maybe between shattered ones and usual wh.
My apologies if my answer is raising few other points but i was hoping to help as much as i could. |
Halfrek Foley
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
15
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Posted - 2015.05.23 03:08:36 -
[60] - Quote
Stig Elendil wrote:Will Gauss wrote:Rosal Milag wrote:Attribute the memory loss to boosters or quafe, but can't you still map the shattered wormholes by using a combination of Cynos and the capital navigation window? I don't have the experience to know if a cyno can light in a WH or if the navigation window will give any information for a fleet cyno that is impossible to get If this is true I will love you forever because we have no method of mapping the shattered systems onto our existing Galileo map of the rest of Anoikis. I'm sending you 100M if this turns out to work. It'll take us a bit to get set up, but this is beautiful if it does. I'm absolutely not a cyno specialist, i'm just a space traveler and went few times in wh. Once in a fleet i had the pleasure and honor to talk with the Fleet Commander that was kindly explaining how (in simple terms) a fleet was working and also the differences between wh (even if i knew few basics). But i asked him a simple question, or should say more a remark, to what he said to the few people that were there with me. it was that remark : "you mean it's impossible to have hotdrop there ?" and he answered me by the affirmative, no such military techniques possible in the wh. As i'm not myself a specialist i can't affirm 100% this is true but coming from a Fleet Commander i think it must be the case. Anyway it's raising others questions : is it possible to light a cyno from a wh to another one ? At the time of my question, shattered ones hadn't appeared and Thera wasn't accessible it could be interesting to test if lighting cyno in shattered ones is possible (of course going to them or just between them) and maybe between shattered ones and usual wh. My apologies if my answer is raising few other points but i was hoping to help as much as i could.
Yes, it is possible to generate cynosural fields in Anoikis.
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