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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
59
   |
Posted - 2011.12.05 23:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am running a large Caldari POS, and run it tightly. Any modules not being used are offlined.
Currently, I am using:
4,400/7,500 CPU = 58.67% of CPU
880,000/2,750,000 = 32% of Grid.
My Heavy Water usage = 88/hour
My Liquid Ozone = 48/hour.
I know the new fuel block system assume full usage of CPU and grid for POS.
From looking at the block BPO, it appears to be 150 HW, 150 LO per hour now.
Is that right?
Am I facing over a tripling in my LO consumption? |
Brock Nelson
70
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 00:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yes that's correct. In fact, using pre-patch speculation price, cost of running POS will have dropped but obviously it spiked due to a number of factor including the new PI tax, speculations, etc |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 01:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Brock Nelson wrote:Yes that's correct. In fact, using pre-patch speculation price, cost of running POS will have dropped but obviously it spiked due to a number of factor including the new PI tax, speculations, etc
This is insane.
Based on the new numbers a large POS will require 3600 units of LO/day.
I mine ice in a Hulk for some protection from gankers.
I get a little less than 36 units of ice/hour.
Based on my perfect refine, I am faced with 4 hours of ice mining every day, no breaks, to supply my LO for a single POS. |
Frothgar
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 01:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Brock Nelson wrote:Yes that's correct. In fact, using pre-patch speculation price, cost of running POS will have dropped but obviously it spiked due to a number of factor including the new PI tax, speculations, etc This is insane. Based on the new numbers a large POS will require 3600 units of LO/day. I mine ice in a Hulk for some protection from gankers. I get a little less than 36 units of ice/hour. Based on my perfect refine, I am faced with 4 hours of ice mining every day, no breaks, to supply my LO for a single POS.
Highsec mining shouldn't be the be-all and end all of Isotopes. Sorry.
Gelidus, Dark Glitter, Glare crust, Krystallos all have very acceptable yields of LO/Heavy Water.
If you're really wanting to make some ISK mining, venturing into a 0.0 corp is a very worthwhile thing.
If you just want to AFK in highsec, in a ship not built for the job.... Not going to knock you but, try something else. The game is just downright huge, and it can be really fun and rewarding to learn something new, or a new twist on something you already do. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
170
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 01:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:This is insane.
Based on the new numbers a large POS will require 3600 units of LO/day.
I mine ice in a Hulk for some protection from gankers.
I get a little less than 36 units of ice/hour.
Based on my perfect refine, I am faced with 4 hours of ice mining every day, no breaks, to supply my LO for a single POS.
That is why you pay other people to obtain ice products for you, while paying them with ISK earned by doing something more profitable (like level 4 missions) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
441
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 02:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
http://eve.grismar.net/ore/ice.php
Regular Ice: 50 HW / 300 isotopes / 25 LOz
Premium ice: 75 HW / 350 isotopes / 40 LOz
But there are also special ices in deep lo-sec and null which provide:
Glare Crust: 1000 HW / 500 LOz
Dark Glitter: 500 HW / 1000 LOz
Gelidus: 250 HW / 500 LOz
Krystallos: 100 HW / 250 LOz
You only find regular ice in hi-sec, but as you can see there are other sources of HW/LOz found in low/null with better ratios or which are exclusively there for harvesting HW/LOz. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 02:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:http://eve.grismar.net/ore/ice.php
Regular Ice: 50 HW / 300 isotopes / 25 LOz
Premium ice: 75 HW / 350 isotopes / 40 LOz
But there are also special ices in deep lo-sec and null which provide:
Glare Crust: 1000 HW / 500 LOz
Dark Glitter: 500 HW / 1000 LOz
Gelidus: 250 HW / 500 LOz
Krystallos: 100 HW / 250 LOz
You only find regular ice in hi-sec, but as you can see there are other sources of HW/LOz found in low/null with better ratios or which are exclusively there for harvesting HW/LOz.
Granted, but the high sec player has no access to said resources.
Ultimately, that is the point I am making. The high sec small corp POS owners are finished if they want to be self-sufficient.
They have no choice but to pay market prices, because the opportunity costs of ice mining are enormous.
LO is at 400/unit now. I can see that doubling in 2 months. |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
228
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 02:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Granted, but the high sec player has no access to said resources.
It might have to do with the fact that he is in high security space.
My cousin's out chasing spaceships, and what do I get? Forum duty.
|
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 03:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
I don't get the supposed problem here. Buy a lot of ozone. Or mine for four hours a day. No skin off of my teeth. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
441
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 03:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Self-sufficiency does not mean you can't buy stuff off the market (that's just cutting your own nose off to spite your face).
If a block of ice is valued at 140k ISK/u and you need 50M ISK worth of ice product each month, then you mine about 360-380 blocks worth of ice (50.4M - 53.2M ISK), refine it, sell what you have excess of and buy the stuff that you don't have enough of. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 03:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tasko Pal wrote:I don't get the supposed problem here. Buy a lot of ozone. Or mine for four hours a day. No skin off of my teeth.
The reason I am ticked is I have to this point never bought any POS fuel.
I have been able to mine enough in high sec in what I considered reasonable time.
That is now changing.
My current requirements are 48/hour, which will now shoot to 150/hour.
Yes, adapt or die, put this is a real slap in the face.
And yes, I know, many other high sec players are facing huge slaps in the face with this release in other areas, so no point whining you will say.
Last point:
At current Jita prices or around 400 ISK/unit LO, a large POS will burn through a tad over 43 million ISK in LO/month.
If believe there are many other POS owners out there with similiar consumption numbers to me.
It is quite conceivable that the price of Liquid Ozone could double in a few months.
Then we are looking at 80 million/month just for that one POS fuel component.
Not fun for some. |
Brock Nelson
72
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 03:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Honestly the changes in fuel isn't a slap in the face for me at all and I doubt it is for alot of high sec pos owners. If you feel that the slight change is a huge slap in the face then you're not using your POS right. POS owners should at least figure out how to use their towers right and make enough profit to at the very least cover the cost of fuel.
A slap in the face would be Goonswarm's campaign against oxygen isotope buyers. |
Riley Moore
Perkone
Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 03:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Use some of your pos profits or level 4 missions or trade profits, spend less time to make isk than mining and buy the LO. Profits from my business are all I need. I also stock on two years worth of fuel so I don't need to worry about it for a while.
Best of luck.
Need Researched BPO's? Be it drones, ammo, charges, you name it, visit my forum store now!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 03:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Riley Moore wrote:Use some of your pos profits or level 4 missions or trade profits, spend less time to make isk than mining and buy the LO. Profits from my business are all I need. I also stock on two years worth of fuel so I don't need to worry about it for a while.
Best of luck.
I had what I thought was a 6 month supply on hand.
With the new POS fuel requirements, that number is drastically reduced. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
442
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 04:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
Riley Moore wrote:Use some of your pos profits or level 4 missions or trade profits, spend less time to make isk than mining and buy the LO. Profits from my business are all I need. I also stock on two years worth of fuel so I don't need to worry about it for a while.
(laughs) I thought I was an unusual one with a 12-month supply.
Old vs new Consumption (assuming a ME40 BPO of the fuel blocks and Production Efficiency V skill):
Coolant - 2/4/8 to 2/4/8
Enriched Uranium - 1/2/4 to 1/2/4
Mech Parts - 2/3/5 to 1/2/4
Oxygen - 7/13/25 to 5/10/20
Robotics - 1/1/1 to 0.25/0.50/1.00
Heavy Water - 38/75/150 to 38/75/150
Isotopes - 113/225/450 to 100/200/400
Liquid Ozone - 38/75/150 to 38/75/150
So Mech Parts consumption went down. Oxygen went down. Robotics was even or down. Isotopes went down. Whether your HW/LOz went up a little or a lot depends on how you had your tower setup before.
Under the old system - using October prices, a tower that fully utilized HW/LOz will go from/to costs for 30 days under the old/new system:
Small: ~140M -> 95M
Medium: ~220M -> 180M
Large: ~390 -> 365
But because prices are a bit screwy currently while the market shakes out (including estimated fuel block cost with ME40 and zero profit margin):
Amarr: 119 / 221 / 425 - 14768 ISK/u
Caldari: 121 / 225 / 435 - 15099 ISK/u
Gallente: 189 / 362 / 708 - 24578 ISK/u
Minmatar: 122 / 227 / 438 - 15225 ISK/u
|
Riley Moore
Perkone
Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 04:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Under the old system - using October prices, a tower that fully utilized HW/LOz will go from/to costs for 30 days under the old/new system:
Small: ~140M -> 95M
Medium: ~220M -> 180M
Large: ~390 -> 365
But because prices are a bit screwy currently while the market shakes out (including estimated fuel block cost with ME40 and zero profit margin):
My calculations are the same give or take 10mil up/down. Still cheaper then before the patch so I'm happy. (I'm actually restocking now), also oops a trade speculation went wrong and I have slightly overpriced oxygen. enough oxygen for 45 months 
Need Researched BPO's? Be it drones, ammo, charges, you name it, visit my forum store now!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Sassaniak
Rayvek Laboratories
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 04:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Im not sure this has been addressed yet, but i believe the biggest problem to be the fact that LO is half what the HW refine is on a single block of ice, yet now they are needed at the same rate for a pos as HW,
Hisec pos's tend towards research towers and not deathstars so their old LO consumption was quite low, and generally more on par with Hw production per block ,*
* this is not strictly true, but it was more then true for me when i mined ice for a tower, in fact i had spare LO for all the HW i had to mine, which went to cynos, and such things, or i just mined enough LO and bought the HW off the market, it was really cheap because of the amounts hw actually used was low.
Now however, there will be a glut of isotopes, (nice for cap pilots to jump with) a large amount of spare HW, and the bottle neck will become more then ever LO production, you will have to mine even more ice to fuel the jB nets, and move the caps around.
In hisec this will mean more ice miners are needed, (and the total numbers of pos owners will go down as well) priced out because of hisec maintenance costs.
Im not at all suprised that nullsec bears dont seem to mind as much as the JB bridge towers tend to be deathstared and thus used all the pg already. changing very little for them in terms of fuel costs. (Cpu fuel coming in at 2x the rate of pg fuel)
If you look at the numbers for a moon goo tower, with 2 harvesters, and reactors, you see that it more closely resembles a hisec research pos where the cpu is the bottleneck for mods and not the PG, but if you average it with JB towers (which are opposite) your numbers dotn seem bad at all for total fuel costs. infact this change looks pretty good, less total maths, and single fuel types to manage at locations. but only on scale is this a good change.
I think this is what the op was worryign about when he wrote his post, (the LO bottleneck adn price of it to make up what he cant mine after the switchover when blocks become currency) and im not sure that CCP has looked at this as an issue.
Sure its nice to say that you should jsut move to low/null. but really, who actually wants to be friends with goons? I dont speak Russian, and Pl will jsut steamroll whoever stars to take sov when they get paid enough vodka. (to be fair, PL has done very well for itself, and Vodka is a nice drink)
but this is kinda the deathknell for actual solo pos owners,
I mean really? adding ice mining time ? you need the bot subs that badly? who actually wants to mine 2160 blocks (if you figure a 205 second cycle (perfect yeti-bx2 skilled character in a mack, + ganglink max skilled orca) its still 30.9 hours of mining a month to run that pos for 30 days.)
(24*30 * 75) Hours per day * days in a month * number of LO per hour
= 54,000 LO per month
54,000/25 LO per month / per perfect refine ice block
= 2160 block
2160 / 4 -> Blocks / mackinaw cycle amount
= 540 number of cycles
540 * 205 (seconds) /60/60
= 30.75 hours of mining , (this is for a month 30 days)
for a medium non-faction tower. with perfect refine skills, manufacturing, Exhumer/Ice mining, Mining implant, Max skilled orca w/ganglink,
seriously? I find myself any amount of ice mining to be pretty awful, and i know a lot of people agree with me. why are you upping the required ice mining ? are hisec pos owners really that much of an issue you need them gone? way to crowd out the casual gamers.
oh and i know it rambles a bit
...............................................................................
Sometimes, you all make me very disappointed. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 05:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sassaniak, what you said indeed is what I feel.
I think CCP is going to hear a lot of high sec "casual" players shrieking when they become aware of the situation.
And for those interested, I have done tow tours of duty living out of POS's in a w-space, and been in two 0.0 alliances, last time fighting the losing battle against the russian supercaps.
I came back to high sec for a breather from the BS 0.0 politics and to relax, not to stress out about fuel costs in my POS.
So much for a breather.
Maybe it is time for 0.0 again. |
Alain Kinsella
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 11:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
OK, so about 30 hours of mining. Five miners, three two-hour ops (or two three-hour ops) - done. Been there, done that, can do it again if needed (and when done for corp, I don't ask for payment of my time).
CCP is trying to encourage more POS owners to work together. While I think that's a great idea, I'd first like them to fix the role system so that its easier to deal with multiple fingers in a POS.
I may have come here from Myst Online, but that does not make me any less bloodthirsty than the average Eve player.
Just more subtle.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
519
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 12:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Here's a thought.
If you were running at 58.67% of CPU and 32% of Grid, why don't you find a way to go down to under 50% CPU and switch your POS tower down one size ?
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Velicitia
Open Designs
167
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 12:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sassaniak wrote:
but this is kinda the deathknell for actual solo pos owners,
I mean really? adding ice mining time ? you need the bot subs that badly? who actually wants to mine 2160 blocks (if you figure a 205 second cycle (perfect yeti-bx2 skilled character in a mack, + ganglink max skilled orca) its still 30.9 hours of mining a month to run that pos for 30 days.)
so ... stop trying to solo a multiplayer game?
Akita T wrote:Here's a thought.
If you were running at 58.67% of CPU and 32% of Grid, why don't you find a way to go down to under 50% CPU and switch your POS tower down one size ?
^ This. It probably will be something as simple as "shut off one module". Now, if the only CPU-hungry modules you have are labs ... that might not be so easy, but if you have other stuff onlined as well, just shut it off when you're not using it... means you'll have to play the game of onlining/offlining stuff as your usage needs change, but you'll save a fair bit of LO and HW. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration
Gryphon League
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 13:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
1) Instead of trying to down size the POS, why don't you figure out how to add more capability and make more Isk to offset the added fuel costs.
2) Why do people strive for "self sufficiency" at the expense of making the most Isk with their Indy time. Now maybe the 4 hours Ice Mining are done while doing homework, or running missions on another screen, or watching TV. But from what I have heard (since I have never mined Ice in HS) is that almost any ore mining yields more Isk/Hr. If this is so I can not figure out why anyone mines Ice in HS other than the desire of some internal satisfaction of playing an MMO in solo mode. I just don't get the "let's go mine Ice to be self sufficient, even though we could make twice the isk mining ore and buy the Ice products".
3) If you are seriously worried about 40M isk per month in additional POS operation costs, you need to find a better isk generation method. But yes I do feel for people like you with poorly planned towers, as you are bearing a large change in cost due to poorly utilized towers.
|
Bluecollar Tweaker
The Fighting Whities
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
If you're running a profitable business, then the fuel issue takes care of itself. If you're not, well... you're a chucklehead and bad at EVE. |
Percival Gates
State War Academy
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 22:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
On the bright side, the increased pos fuel costs will reduce the number of pos spammed all around hi sec, which should open up some moons for those that can more efficiently make use of the resource of having a hi sec pos. Or, we might just see a lot more offlined pos...hmmm.
I'm not trying to sound calloused, but I do believe there have been many valid points here. If you can't figure out how to efficiently use your pos to make isk to offset the fuel increases, you probably should just take the stupid thing down. I've had many pos before, but as soon as I no longer am able to keep up with the fuel costs, I take them down. This frees up a moon for somebody else to have fun with. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
111
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 23:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Swtich to a smaller POS, sounds like you've lots of unused resources already. If you want to keep the large POS, then put things on it that can help you raise enough money to buy all that extra ice. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 00:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
To those that suggest taking down the POS, or swapping to a smaller one, well, I do make enough ISK off of it mfg'ing T2 mods to pay for fuel and a couple plexes/month. And I am researching a substantial set of BPO's long term as well while doing the T2 mfg.
The vast majority of the CPU requirements are labs, and no, I can't scale back. I have every lab being used heavily.
But enough of this. It appears that I simply have to suck it up as a cost of doing business.
I just hate the concept of paying for POS fuel. Call it a bit of role-playing. Call it stubbornness.
I am now buying large quantities of LO and considering Heavy Water, as much as I hate it.
I am no mfg genius who makes a billion/day from their POS, but it defrays some bills and is a decent distraction from the awful grind of missions.
My ultimate goal was to create a business in high sec that would fund my PvP ops in low sec, wh space and 0.0.
Given the changes over the past few weeks, that dream is shattered, but the POS is still viable. |
The Fish
Shai-Hulud Space Concern
Jeux Sans Frontieres
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 17:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:To those that suggest taking down the POS, or swapping to a smaller one, well, I do make enough ISK off of it mfg'ing T2 mods to pay for fuel and a couple plexes/month. And I am researching a substantial set of BPO's long term as well while doing the T2 mfg.
The vast majority of the CPU requirements are labs, and no, I can't scale back. I have every lab being used heavily.
But enough of this. It appears that I simply have to suck it up as a cost of doing business.
I just hate the concept of paying for POS fuel. Call it a bit of role-playing. Call it stubbornness.
I am now buying large quantities of LO and considering Heavy Water, as much as I hate it.
I am no mfg genius who makes a billion/day from their POS, but it defrays some bills and is a decent distraction from the awful grind of missions.
My ultimate goal was to create a business in high sec that would fund my PvP ops in low sec, wh space and 0.0.
Given the changes over the past few weeks, that dream is shattered, but the POS is still viable.
tl:dr - I'm making enough money to keep doing what I am doing at a profit and just felt like whining on the forums about a change in mechanics. I'm also incapable of doing what countless others do and adjusting to the new mechanics. |
Sassaniak
Rayvek Laboratories
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 02:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
The Fish wrote:
tl:dr - I'm making enough money to keep doing what I am doing at a profit and just felt like whining on the forums about a change in mechanics. I'm also incapable of doing what countless others do and adjusting to the new mechanics.
yes, but isnt this the place for that? its not nearly as satisfying telling my cat. cats dont care.
as a side note to that, solo tower running is good stuff when you can afford it, but even small corps are feeling some burn from this. Hisec PI might not be the best, but it was enough to run a POS at a reasonable* cost, now however, the base cost of producing POS fuel has increased, what was origionaly a minor cost (buying/mining ice products and/or extra fuel) has become a bit bigger.
there are many arguments about the base cost of time, but ther eis a difference between isk cost and time cost. PI could be run cheaply and low risk pre-patch with very little time investment, (low isk, low time) but now with the higher taxes, it has become a higher isk to time investment. and buying fuel outright is much more expensive. (there is some room for fuel provider services, who have access to alliances to defend POCO's) but for small corps or solo players that investment is too much.
while it is nice to have a pos, many casual players who arent in a huge alliance, or have the time to be in a huge alliance will simply be booted from this aspect of the game. (this being good or bad on a cosmic scale i don't know)
oh and did you really not expect threads like this after the changes to PI? if adaption was easy, no one would die.
...............................................................................
Sometimes, you all make me very disappointed. |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration
Gryphon League
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 03:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:To those that suggest taking down the POS, or swapping to a smaller one, well, I do make enough ISK off of it mfg'ing T2 mods to pay for fuel and a couple plexes/month. And I am researching a substantial set of BPO's long term as well while doing the T2 mfg.
The vast majority of the CPU requirements are labs, and no, I can't scale back. I have every lab being used heavily.
But enough of this. It appears that I simply have to suck it up as a cost of doing business.
I just hate the concept of paying for POS fuel. Call it a bit of role-playing. Call it stubbornness.
I am now buying large quantities of LO and considering Heavy Water, as much as I hate it.
I am no mfg genius who makes a billion/day from their POS, but it defrays some bills and is a decent distraction from the awful grind of missions.
My ultimate goal was to create a business in high sec that would fund my PvP ops in low sec, wh space and 0.0.
Given the changes over the past few weeks, that dream is shattered, but the POS is still viable.
If you are only at just over half of the cpu then hang another lab or two and expand your business. No reason not to now since you will be paying the same fuel costs. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 14:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
(laughs) I thought I was an unusual one with a 12-month supply.
... at least one of them, 28,000 years at the old usage rate....
As far as the screaming about increased post of POS, they've been doing that since before the patch was released. Originally CCP was going to do away with the fuel bonuses for faction towers and sov entirely and just make the cargo bays bigger because they only asked the big alliances what THEY thought the advantage of those things were, and the universal response there was fewer refuels.
It's nice to see how not only do small corps and solos not count, but large corps and small alliances also don't count in this game.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
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