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Misec merc content under assault, again

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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen Origin. Black Legion. 2289	Posted - 2015.05.28 17:27:01 - [1] - Quote Hello, If you are a member of hisec mercenary organization, or even a solo content provider who leverages the wardec mechanic, you may want to make your voice heard here, before its too late and yet another nerf nail is put in the coffin of wars by carebears. Thank you for your attention, F Would you like to know more?
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 928	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:09:10 - [2] - Quote No Dev blog, no official cap line. Just random discussing social corps again. Sorry, I don't see any sky falling. I see nothing more than a discussion that has happened before and no changes were made.
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 21514	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:33:44 - [3] - Quote Lady Ayeipsia wrote: No Dev blog, no official cap line. Just random discussing social corps again. Sorry, I don't see any sky falling. I see nothing more than a discussion that has happened before and no changes were made. Again? Its literally the same thread. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Noragen Neirfallas Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits. 796	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:45:13 - [4] - Quote I got to be honest Feyd I can't be assed reading that entire threadnaught. I read the first 3 pages and a few other highlights from well knowns and I gotta say I like one of the ideas a lot. The idea of making social groups easier to keep is awesome. I personally have a channel where a bunch of people i keep in contact with throughout eve hang out but it could be much more awesome. Now onto social corps being like NPC corps but in a grouping. As long as they have ALL the same restrictions as a regular NPC corp including the tax rate and inability to ever own a structure hell why not. People will just use it to form their corps the same way they use NPC corps and chat channels now. Personally I think both ideas could work well. If I missed some glaring nerf plz redirect me to it but mostly the CSM posts seemed to lean towards these 2 ideas Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Forum BFFL of Mo
Mobadder Thworst Noob Farmers Bad Neighbors. 435	Posted - 2015.05.28 18:58:24 - [5] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: I got to be honest Feyd I can't be assed reading that entire threadnaught. I read the first 3 pages and a few other highlights from well knowns and I gotta say I like one of the ideas a lot. The idea of making social groups easier to keep is awesome. I personally have a channel where a bunch of people i keep in contact with throughout eve hang out but it could be much more awesome. Now onto social corps being like NPC corps but in a grouping. As long as they have ALL the same restrictions as a regular NPC corp including the tax rate and inability to ever own a structure hell why not. People will just use it to form their corps the same way they use NPC corps and chat channels now. Personally I think both ideas could work well. If I missed some glaring nerf plz redirect me to it but mostly the CSM posts seemed to lean towards these 2 ideas I get the concern that we are creating a new kind of corp that's immune to war decs. I wouldn't be shocked if the PVE meta gamers figured out that the 20% tax cost is so much cheaper than war decs that this is the PVE ultimate war avoidance solution. Certainly, mining corps would have no incentive to form real corps as their minerals are exempted of tax. With the exception of bounty tax savings, the only other benefit a corp offers is infrastructure opportunities. I see this as a way to reduce the corp or no corp decision to just 20% mission earnings which would be an easy decision for many types of corps. I think entire industries would abandon the traditional corp overnight.
Noragen Neirfallas Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits. 798	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:12:52 - [6] - Quote Mobadder Thworst wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: I got to be honest Feyd I can't be assed reading that entire threadnaught. I read the first 3 pages and a few other highlights from well knowns and I gotta say I like one of the ideas a lot. The idea of making social groups easier to keep is awesome. I personally have a channel where a bunch of people i keep in contact with throughout eve hang out but it could be much more awesome. Now onto social corps being like NPC corps but in a grouping. As long as they have ALL the same restrictions as a regular NPC corp including the tax rate and inability to ever own a structure hell why not. People will just use it to form their corps the same way they use NPC corps and chat channels now. Personally I think both ideas could work well. If I missed some glaring nerf plz redirect me to it but mostly the CSM posts seemed to lean towards these 2 ideas I get the concern that we are creating a new kind of corp that's immune to war decs. I wouldn't be shocked if the PVE meta gamers figured out that the 20% tax cost is so much cheaper than war decs that this is the PVE ultimate war avoidance solution. Certainly, mining corps would have no incentive to form real corps as their minerals are exempted of tax. With the exception of bounty tax savings, the only other benefit a corp offers is infrastructure opportunities. I see this as a way to reduce the corp or no corp decision to just 20% mission earnings which would be an easy decision for many types of corps. I think entire industries would abandon the traditional corp overnight. The people who avoid wardecs already do utilizing corp rolling and NPC corps combined with chat channels. If these are bacically a NPC corp with corp chat and hangers then meh. It still prevents the utilizing of structures which is the only reason to not be in a NPC corp. Personally I think a carrot and a stick is needed to get people in player corps. The stick needs to be bigger then this tiny 11% bounty tax twig. A nice solid 11% bounty tax, lp and mining yields paddle would be better. I already made a carrot proposal. Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Forum BFFL of Mo
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen Origin. Black Legion. 2289	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:13:15 - [7] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: I got to be honest Feyd I can't be assed reading that entire threadnaught. I read the first 3 pages and a few other highlights from well knowns and I gotta say I like one of the ideas a lot. The idea of making social groups easier to keep is awesome. I personally have a channel where a bunch of people i keep in contact with throughout eve hang out but it could be much more awesome. Now onto social corps being like NPC corps but in a grouping. As long as they have ALL the same restrictions as a regular NPC corp including the tax rate and inability to ever own a structure hell why not. People will just use it to form their corps the same way they use NPC corps and chat channels now. Personally I think both ideas could work well. If I missed some glaring nerf plz redirect me to it but mostly the CSM posts seemed to lean towards these 2 ideas The devious part of this is its an indirect long term nerf to hsec war-based content, and only after a lot of pointed questions of its advocates did I uncover the goal here... Best case, if you give players in NPC corps access to more corp-like features, they will be less incentivized to ever leave NPC corps. If you think war-based content is already thin today (because of people hiding out in NPC corps), prepare for it to stay that way forever. Worst case, these incentives will make 'borderline' people who are in full corps today say 'why don't we just drop corp' and join NPC corps, then re-organize under these 'societies'? We still get to have some corp-like mechanics, but now we can't be wardecced by the 'griefers' anymore. End result, less war-based content. In short, the carebears are deviously providing 'corp' mechanics to NPC corp members, as an indirect end-run nerf to war mechanics. If you take part in wars, this might concern you. Just sayin. F Would you like to know more?
Mobadder Thworst Noob Farmers Bad Neighbors. 435	Posted - 2015.05.28 19:29:33 - [8] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Mobadder Thworst wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: I got to be honest Feyd I can't be assed reading that entire threadnaught. I read the first 3 pages and a few other highlights from well knowns and I gotta say I like one of the ideas a lot. The idea of making social groups easier to keep is awesome. I personally have a channel where a bunch of people i keep in contact with throughout eve hang out but it could be much more awesome. Now onto social corps being like NPC corps but in a grouping. As long as they have ALL the same restrictions as a regular NPC corp including the tax rate and inability to ever own a structure hell why not. People will just use it to form their corps the same way they use NPC corps and chat channels now. Personally I think both ideas could work well. If I missed some glaring nerf plz redirect me to it but mostly the CSM posts seemed to lean towards these 2 ideas I get the concern that we are creating a new kind of corp that's immune to war decs. I wouldn't be shocked if the PVE meta gamers figured out that the 20% tax cost is so much cheaper than war decs that this is the PVE ultimate war avoidance solution. Certainly, mining corps would have no incentive to form real corps as their minerals are exempted of tax. With the exception of bounty tax savings, the only other benefit a corp offers is infrastructure opportunities. I see this as a way to reduce the corp or no corp decision to just 20% mission earnings which would be an easy decision for many types of corps. I think entire industries would abandon the traditional corp overnight. The people who avoid wardecs already do utilizing corp rolling and NPC corps combined with chat channels. If these are bacically a NPC corp with corp chat and hangers then meh. It still prevents the utilizing of structures which is the only reason to not be in a NPC corp. Personally I think a carrot and a stick is needed to get people in player corps. The stick needs to be bigger then this tiny 11% bounty tax twig. A nice solid 11% bounty tax, lp and mining yields paddle would be better. I already made a carrot proposal. I'm absolutely on board with the carrot and stick approach. I think guaranteed risk reduction should be very expensive. My concern would be supplying corp identities, hangars, corp wallets, and other infrastructure perks to war dodging Indy players may have long term negative effects( it will be preferred to have these corps which cannot be war decked). If they build war immune corps that yield these benefits, there needs to be a very compelling reason why they're not the universally attractive offer. Specifically, the cost of having such a corp needs to be competitive with the risk-value of creating a comparable real corp. I would argue that the cost of guaranteed dec freedom should be very high because the risks involved in war decs are so great. Think how much corps have paid you to stop a single war dec. how much would a comparable corp need to pay to end all war risk in order to make real corps competitive with this new option.
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 586	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:32:18 - [9] - Quote seems like a sound idea to me
Noragen Neirfallas Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits. 808	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:35:37 - [10] - Quote Veers Belvar wrote: seems like a sound idea to me See veers backs up the carrot and stick approach. If veers is willing to collaborate with us on this nothing can stop us Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Forum BFFL of Mo
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 586	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:53:16 - [11] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: seems like a sound idea to me See veers backs up the carrot and stick approach. If veers is willing to collaborate with us on this nothing can stop us Veers backs the nerf wardecs in highsec approach.
Omar Alharazaad Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 1704	Posted - 2015.05.29 04:58:02 - [12] - Quote Veers is back! And so is that queasy, yet aroused feeling. Coincidence? Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Noragen Neirfallas Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits. 808	Posted - 2015.05.29 05:26:00 - [13] - Quote Veers Belvar wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: seems like a sound idea to me See veers backs up the carrot and stick approach. If veers is willing to collaborate with us on this nothing can stop us Veers backs the Carrot and Stick in highsec approach. With you on our side veers we shall succeed. Mo will be pleased Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Forum BFFL of Mo
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 1751	Posted - 2015.05.29 08:05:22 - [14] - Quote Feyd, your energy could be better spent on the structure changes. Social group mechanics are desperately needed, and are essentially an expansion on chat channels on mailing lists. I would much prefer to see changes to prevent people from tearing down their in space assets in response to a dec. If the high sec merc community wants wars to matter, now is the time to be fighting for that. Also, I'm having living with myself. I just clicked "like" on one of veers' posts... Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information. BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Noragen Neirfallas Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits. 811	Posted - 2015.05.29 08:17:06 - [15] - Quote BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote: Feyd, your energy could be better spent on the structure changes. Social group mechanics are desperately needed, and are essentially an expansion on chat channels on mailing lists. I would much prefer to see changes to prevent people from tearing down their in space assets in response to a dec. If the high sec merc community wants wars to matter, now is the time to be fighting for that. Also, I'm having living with myself. I just clicked "like" on one of veers' posts... There is a proposal about this in f&I ATM Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Forum BFFL of Mo
Aoife Fraoch Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 52	Posted - 2015.05.29 11:42:19 - [16] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote: Feyd, your energy could be better spent on the structure changes. Social group mechanics are desperately needed, and are essentially an expansion on chat channels on mailing lists. I would much prefer to see changes to prevent people from tearing down their in space assets in response to a dec. If the high sec merc community wants wars to matter, now is the time to be fighting for that. Also, I'm having living with myself. I just clicked "like" on one of veers' posts... There is a proposal about this in f&I ATM I also agree with Veers and others that for war decks and social corps to work to support EVEs vision, there needs to be costs and benefits to ensure that players have meaningful choices to make when selecting their level of risk.
Valkin Mordirc 1058	Posted - 2015.05.29 13:21:46 - [17] - Quote I don't think Wardecs need a nerf. I think they need fixed. Not Nerfed. Wardecs are way to enjoy PvP in highsec. Its a core part of Highsec Meta. I've done it since I was noob and could barely fit a merlin. It's a fun part of the game. The idea of social corps is an idea however I can get behind. I really think that it's a good way to experience community and keep the newbro's around. What EVE needs is a way for Newbies to learn the game, and honestly the only way it's going to happen is learning from other players. Social Corps seems like an idea to do this. However Social corps need restrictions. And right now, the difference between Highsec Corps, and NPC corps is almost nill. Tax, POSes and POCO's are the only difference. THAT needs to change before I even think about allowing an idea like this. NPC corps need to be super restrictive. 'Social Corps," Need to be slightly less restrictive, and player made corps need to be free with full opportunities to make ISK and a name. And that won't happen until Player Made Highsec Corps get more content. So that's what I advocate. You wont social corps. Fine. But give Players a risky option that can turns out more beneficial outcomes that any other available. You wanna make billions of isk in incursions, manufacturing and such? Make a Highsec Corp. Do you want gather with friends and do stuff? Make a social corp. You want to play alone? stay in a NPC corp and face the low risk low reward because of it. My two cents. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Omar Alharazaad Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 1720	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:13:15 - [18] - Quote I do also want to see more relevancy and benefit from player corps and alliances. I don't really expect it, but it would be nice. We need more things in the game that are tangibly worth fighting over. In high sec, yes, but also in low and WH space... those places where SOV isn't so much a thing. Anything that benefits these areas will likely also benefit null, but what I really want to see is the high sec npc corp crew tempted into actually stepping out and playing the game. negative reinforcement for remaining under the fridge isn't likely to happen, and if it were to it would likely backfire. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 637	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:14:43 - [19] - Quote There are three general groups of players where defending against highsec wars are concerned. Wardecs catch exactly two kinds of people: 1) People who aren't paying attention (this also includes stupid people). 2) People who are willing to fight you (at least for a little while, until they realize what a one-sided affair the war is, and join group 3). 3a) Everyone who will immediately drop corp, roll a new one, and go on with their lives as if you didn't exist. 3b) People who go play on their alts, ignore you, and go on with their lives as if you didn't exist. The fundamental flaw is the fact that, frankly, there is literally nothing in highsec worth fighting over. Towers? Meh, I'll just move it. It takes me literally a couple of hours. I can have it down, a new corp formed, and the tower back up and running in less time than it takes for the wardec to go live. (If I'm really being a ****, I'll leave one alt in the old corp, just so the wardec actually starts). Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Omar Alharazaad Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 1720	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:20:09 - [20] - Quote You forgot pride. That's kinda worth fighting for if you've managed to accumulate some. It's one of those commodities like trust. God I just realized how condescending that sounds... NOT aimed at you. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1054	Posted - 2015.05.29 14:58:41 - [21] - Quote The higher corp tax is a red herring. This idea would be teh suxors for mission runners. 20% is pretty steep. However, look at the following corp types: 1. Miners as Mo mentioned. Mine in freedom. Trade as necessary to avoid any taxes. 2. Indy corp. Trade the goods into the corp, build your crap and then trade the crap out to avoid taxes. Your HS tax free indy pos can't be bothered by anyone. Number 2 is almost sinister as it would allow large player blocks to build t2 stuff at zero risk. JF stuff into HS system, trade it in a station, warp from inside a docking ring to inside a POS shield. Reverse the process with the outproducts. What's next? Concord protection bubbles for LS POS for the processes you can't do in empire?? Thankfully, I think CCP has finally seen how these baby steps add up to a boring game that folks stop playing over several years. Sadly, the tools pushing for this garbage have not.
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 637	Posted - 2015.05.29 15:18:02 - [22] - Quote Omar Alharazaad wrote: You forgot pride. That's kinda worth fighting for if you've managed to accumulate some. It's one of those commodities like trust. God I just realized how condescending that sounds... NOT aimed at you. LOL. No worries, I know what you mean. Yes, if you've built a reputation or a brand within the game (a la E-UNI) that would be damaged if you had to change your name, that's worth fighting over - but those corps are few and far between. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Noragen Neirfallas Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits. 820	Posted - 2015.05.29 17:51:40 - [23] - Quote At the risk of hijacking this thread I do think the war dec system is in need of a complete overhaul. Funny thing tho Wardecs themselves are not the issue its the above mentioned reasons. Complete lack of incentive outside of pride and possibly owning some POCO's which as most people discovered aren't worth the hassel. To make this system better there needs to be a better conflict generator. I think the new SOV structures may be the key here Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Forum BFFL of Mo
Demerius Xenocratus Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 389	Posted - 2015.05.29 21:17:27 - [24] - Quote Elenahina wrote: There are three general groups of players where defending against highsec wars are concerned. 1) People who aren't paying attention (this also includes stupid people). 2) People who are willing to fight you (at least for a little while, until they realize what a one-sided affair the war is, and join group 3). 3a) Everyone who will immediately drop corp, roll a new one, and go on with their lives as if you didn't exist. 3b) People who go play on their alts, ignore you, and go on with their lives as if you didn't exist. A wardec will only lead to kills against members of group 1 or group 2. The fundamental flaw is the fact that, frankly, there is literally nothing in highsec worth fighting over. Towers? Meh, I'll just move it. It takes me literally a couple of hours. I can have it down, a new corp formed, and the tower back up and running in less time than it takes for the wardec to go live. (If I'm really being a ****, I'll leave one alt in the old corp, just so the wardec actually starts). There's so much truth here. I wish the HTFU crowd would not pretend to be so ignorant of the way wardecs play out in practice. I am presently in an NPC corp so I don't have to contend with wardecs, aside from faction war targets whose highsec stomping grounds are fairly predictable. If I were in a highsec corp that got decced, I would just go play on my alt for a week, or go farm LP in lowsec. There's just not much point in fighting neutral logi/scout assisted station game specialists in T3s. There is absolutely no point being in a player corp in highsec that does anything less than pure PvP because you will always be at an inherent disadvantage against groups solely dedicated to highsec combat. The only people you guys kill, are those who don't understand the reality of how wardecs work, or your competition (other mercs). Everyone else uses one of many available workarounds to avoid you (NPC corps, corp rolling, playing on alts, leave highsec, do something else for a week, brush up on station trading) because actually fighting you is not fun. It's not your responsibility to bring about fun fights for your targets you say? That is true. It's also completely irrelevant. If playing the game on your terms is not fun, people will not do it. You say you want highsec carebears to become better and learn the game without recognizing that this will just lead to less content and less profit for yourselves. Removing some of these work-around is not going to magically force people to play clay pigeon. You'll kill the same dumb/new players as before and everyone else will just find another way to avoid you. More "good" EVE players, I.e players who are better informed and thus better able to assess risk while engaging in the risk averse playstyle this game incentivizes, leads to less content all around. I realize I am talking to a brick wall but hey, forum pvp is content too.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 720	Posted - 2015.05.29 21:22:49 - [25] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Complete lack of incentive outside of pride and possibly owning some POCO's which as most people discovered aren't worth the hassel. To make this system better there needs to be a better conflict generator. These threads have gone full circle and generally that's the conclusion that is reached by the end. The discussion is a bit moot past that until CCP releases their full vision for structures and assets in highsec. Missing from the discussion though are ways to give incentive to industrial corporations to fight among themselves. The concern in these threads are centered around balancing the wars between mercenaries and their victims. Our primary concern should be with how to create conflict between the hundreds or thousands of highsec industrial corporations. I shall now quickly shill my idea once again that accomplishes just that: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5673139#post5673139 There are all our dominion Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 645	Posted - 2015.05.29 23:02:31 - [26] - Quote McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote: Our primary concern should be with how to create conflict Full stop. In a PvP centric game like Eve, this should be Job 1. (Right behind death to all supers.) Every decision CCP makes should start and end with "How does this help encourage player on player interaction?" Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 587	Posted - 2015.05.29 23:54:04 - [27] - Quote Elenahina wrote: There are three general groups of players where defending against highsec wars are concerned. 1) People who aren't paying attention (this also includes stupid people). 2) People who are willing to fight you (at least for a little while, until they realize what a one-sided affair the war is, and join group 3). 3a) Everyone who will immediately drop corp, roll a new one, and go on with their lives as if you didn't exist. 3b) People who go play on their alts, ignore you, and go on with their lives as if you didn't exist. A wardec will only lead to kills against members of group 1 or group 2. The fundamental flaw is the fact that, frankly, there is literally nothing in highsec worth fighting over. Towers? Meh, I'll just move it. It takes me literally a couple of hours. I can have it down, a new corp formed, and the tower back up and running in less time than it takes for the wardec to go live. (If I'm really being a ****, I'll leave one alt in the old corp, just so the wardec actually starts). QFT
Valkin Mordirc 1068	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:19:24 - [28] - Quote Kinda sad. Veers went from Illogical troll, making long and detailed post. Now when ever he post it's down to small single sentences or even smaller. It's like Anslol without the SwagBoi feel to it. =\ `#DeleteTheWeak`
Noragen Neirfallas Cheeki Breeki Corp Meet The Bandits. 821	Posted - 2015.05.30 02:51:23 - [29] - Quote One fun past time is deccing a corp roller who has a faction tower. if you already know when they log in scooping the tower is child's play Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Forum BFFL of Mo
Mobadder Thworst Noob Farmers Bad Neighbors. 439	Posted - 2015.05.30 12:48:05 - [30] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Kinda sad. Veers went from Illogical troll, making long and detailed post. Now when ever he post it's down to small single sentences or even smaller. It's like Anslol without the SwagBoi feel to it. =\ qFT

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