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Metis AT	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:17:00 - [1] I keep hearing people calling us whiners. Telling us to stop complaining that their blasterthrons can wtfpwn at all ranges inside scramble range. They tell us our ships have roles and that isnt one of them. They say we have the vagabond. yeah great ship for killing idiots and not getting killed. Its a fun ship, but not the pwnmobile everyone makes it out to be and they all know it. Other HACS are just as good and they know that too. So i ask, why is it okay for us to be left with just decent ships that require more SP to fly then their solopwnmobile drone boat, missle spamming nonesense. I am getting tired of it. I am getting tired of being called a whiner because i wont settle for just decent, why they tear my ships to pieces with their good ships. It just ridiculous. Next they are going to go after the harbringer, because that is now no longer just a desent ship. Seriously why would tux listen to some gallente pilot at fanfest anyway. Go fly matari for a month see what its like, its not easy, not even in our uber pwnmobile stagabonds, that you can just warp away from or nos to death, or out tank or anything else if you set up your ships right.
Angus McLean Gallente Divinity Trials	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:35:00 - [2] Originally by: Metis AT I keep hearing people calling us whiners.... Rant Continues... I dont mean to be rude but listen you have to be a tad older than 2 months to make these kind of solutions. First off your post offered no solutions at all. Secondly the Vagabond is more of a pwn mobile than you know. It can choose its fights and run like a girl if its losing. Thirdly stop complaining until you learn to play well and then attempt to fly amarr. We live off bread and water so to speak. And we arent even being looked at right now.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:42:00 - [3] Apprently its because Matari have 1 ship that can be very good when you spend billions outfitting it. Because of that, the rest of our ships suffer. Everytime someone complains about anything Minmatar related, the answer invariably comes back: "Quit complaining, you have the Vagabond". Honestly at this point I'm going to say, nerf the Vagabond and bring the rest of the Minmatar fleet up to par.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:44:00 - [4] Originally by: Angus McLean Originally by: Metis AT I keep hearing people calling us whiners.... Rant Continues... I dont mean to be rude but listen you have to be a tad older than 2 months to make these kind of solutions. First off your post offered no solutions at all. Secondly the Vagabond is more of a pwn mobile than you know. It can choose its fights and run like a girl if its losing. Thirdly stop complaining until you learn to play well and then attempt to fly amarr. We live off bread and water so to speak. And we arent even being looked at right now. run like a girl? yeah, you would too if you were in a 250million isk ship that dies the second its webbed. and i think alot more will die after the wcs nerf (yet, not a bad nerf imho) you both have good points. minnie has some serious issues, but we are used to it cause we love eve on hard mode. it just makes us that much more badarse. vagabond dies pretty easy, i love when ppl complain about how UBER aaawsome it is, then goes and gets inside their nos/jam/ultratank-look-at-my-crazy-dps/versatility-drone-bay Ishtar. Minnies are middle of the road in ability, always have been. Its pilot ingenuity we rely on, not our tanks, our midslots and RAREly our speed. and amarr have it worse than us i think right now. angus is right there though i think all the cards are getting thrown on the table for the number of adjustments coming in this game.... between boosters, rigs and double hitpoints, who knows what race/ship/setup is gonna pwn in revelations. we can speculate, but when the whole picture comes together we may find ourselves in a much better boat.... or so i keep telling myself
Angus McLean Gallente Divinity Trials	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:46:00 - [5] Originally by: HankMurphy Originally by: Angus McLean Originally by: Metis AT I keep hearing people calling us whiners.... Rant Continues... I dont mean to be rude but listen you have to be a tad older than 2 months to make these kind of solutions. First off your post offered no solutions at all. Secondly the Vagabond is more of a pwn mobile than you know. It can choose its fights and run like a girl if its losing. Thirdly stop complaining until you learn to play well and then attempt to fly amarr. We live off bread and water so to speak. And we arent even being looked at right now. run like a girl? yeah, you would too if you were in a 250million isk ship that dies the second its webbed. and i think alot more will die after the wcs nerf (yet, not a bad nerf imho) you both have good points. minnie has some serious issues, but we are used to it cause we love eve on hard mode. it just makes us that much more badarse. vagabond dies pretty easy, i love when ppl complain about how UBER aaawsome it is, then goes and gets inside their nos/jam/ultratank-look-at-my-crazy-dps/versatility-drone-bay Ishtar. Minnies are middle of the road in ability, always have been. Its pilot ingenuity we rely on, not our tanks, our midslots and RAREly our speed. and amarr have it worse than us i think right now. angus is right there though i think all the cards are getting thrown on the table for the number of adjustments coming in this game.... between boosters, rigs and double hitpoints, who knows what race/ship/setup is gonna pwn in revelations. we can speculate, but when the whole picture comes together we may find ourselves in a much better boat.... or so i keep telling myself Oh lol...how did 'Girl' slip out of my mouth...keyboard. j/k, its not that. In fact the problem is I wouldnt pvp in a 210mil ISK ship anyways Ill stick with zealots thanks.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:47:00 - [6] Rifter = top cheetah = top Sabre = top Stiletto = fine Claw = fine jaguar = fine wolf = fine stabber = fine rupture = fine vagabond = top phoon = fine tempest = fine Forgot the commands but meh, cba. tell me, which one is wrong ? All these ships are at least decent, mostly fine in their class and more then a few are top in their class. Stop yappin because your tempest no longer is the top of the line in solopwnage. It's FINE. Old blog
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:49:00 - [7] Originally by: Angus McLean Oh lol...how did 'Girl' slip out of my mouth...keyboard. j/k, its not that. In fact the problem is I wouldnt pvp in a 210mil ISK ship anyways Ill stick with zealots thanks. oh its fun as hell to fly. you were right on w/ the 'like a girl' comment. not only do you run like a girl when someone locks you down... i think i have let out a high pitched squeel or two when my shields start dropping hard !
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:54:00 - [8] Edited by: HankMurphy on 16/11/2006 23:55:47 Originally by: Rod Blaine Rifter = top cheetah = top Sabre = top Stiletto = fine Claw = fine jaguar = fine wolf = fine stabber = fine rupture = fine vagabond = top phoon = fine tempest = fine Forgot the commands but meh, cba. tell me, which one is wrong ? All these ships are at least decent, mostly fine in their class and more then a few are top in their class. Stop yappin because your tempest no longer is the top of the line in solopwnage. It's FINE. thanks for reminding us of our ships and judging them so appropriately for us. and i dont think temp has been top of the line in solopwnage since i started the game years ago just before the first tempest nerf. though.... me in a tempest will likely always be top of the line in solopwnage hank polishes his fingernails on his shirt i like how you put vagabond as = top. the other HACs are so **** different you cant really have a best. i dont see the vagabond standing its ground vs an ishtar or cerb unless he's suicidal, i do know that last line was a little rude. i editted it out :)
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:57:00 - [9] Originally by: Rod Blaine Rifter = top cheetah = top Sabre = top Stiletto = fine Claw = fine jaguar = fine wolf = fine stabber = fine rupture = fine vagabond = top phoon = fine tempest = fine Forgot the commands but meh, cba. tell me, which one is wrong ? All these ships are at least decent, mostly fine in their class and more then a few are top in their class. Stop yappin because your tempest no longer is the top of the line in solopwnage. It's FINE. Just because you're a forum ***** doesnt mean you are right. Please stop posting your nonsense and pretending that things are true when they arent. Vagabond = top? - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:59:00 - [10] i edit it out... and tasty says it for me anyway :P
FraXy Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:03:00 - [11] Originally by: Rod Blaine Rifter = top cheetah = top Sabre = top Stiletto = fine Claw = fine jaguar = fine wolf = fine stabber = fine rupture = fine vagabond = top phoon = fine tempest = fine Forgot the commands but meh, cba. tell me, which one is wrong ? All these ships are at least decent, mostly fine in their class and more then a few are top in their class. Stop yappin because your tempest no longer is the top of the line in solopwnage. It's FINE. U are a blasterthron pilot aren`t u? This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Tasty Burger Just because you're a forum ***** doesnt mean you are right. You aren't God, you aren't uber, and you're not cool, either. Please stop posting your nonsense and pretending that things are true when they arent. Vagabond = top? Tempest was at the top of solopwnage? Hahaha. Aren't you a guy that made an alt, just to keep on doing forum warrior duties without having to sport your main's name on the forum when you voice your opinion? WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:12:00 - [13] Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Originally by: Tasty Burger Just because you're a forum ***** doesnt mean you are right. You aren't God, you aren't uber, and you're not cool, either. Please stop posting your nonsense and pretending that things are true when they arent. Vagabond = top? Tempest was at the top of solopwnage? Hahaha. Aren't you a guy that made an alt, just to keep on doing forum warrior duties without having to sport your main's name on the forum when you voice your opinion? You're absolutely right. But really, does it matter if I'm an alt or not? It doesnt change whether my posts are worthwhile or not. My opinions stand. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:14:00 - [14] Vagabond is absolute top of HACs. Tempest is absolute top of fleet BS. --------------------------------- Hint: Train for Mega, not for Rokh R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Amisa	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:18:00 - [15] Sabre is the top of a ship class that dies to anything stronger than a t1 frigate? Great! Fine doesn't cut it when your crow is being orbited at 19km by an untouchable Crow, unless you happen to be artillery fit. Even then it's tricky. Can you actually fly Vagabonds? Do you have snake implants? Do you just own NPCers in your vagabond? Is it's hit and run ability what makes it "top" in your opinion? Do you even fly these ships? I don't see any mention of you in a Vagabond on the BoB killboard, in fact the only Minmatar ship it shoes you as flying recently is a Huginn, then it's back to Gallente for you!
William Hart Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Zixxa Vagabond is absolute top of HACs. Tempest is absolute top of fleet BS. K
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Tasty Burger Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Originally by: Tasty Burger Just because you're a forum ***** doesnt mean you are right. You aren't God, you aren't uber, and you're not cool, either. Please stop posting your nonsense and pretending that things are true when they arent. Vagabond = top? Tempest was at the top of solopwnage? Hahaha. Aren't you a guy that made an alt, just to keep on doing forum warrior duties without having to sport your main's name on the forum when you voice your opinion? You're absolutely right. But really, does it matter if I'm an alt or not? It doesnt change whether my posts are worthwhile or not. My opinions stand. It's his opinion tho, and his opinion doesn't have to be right to get the approval of the whole forum warrior community. Like yours i guess. WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS
FraXy Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:27:00 - [18] Actually, Sabre is top of the line below cruisers when fitted correctly and i would engage pretty much anything below a cruiser with it aswell. But that`s just one ship. Most are half-decent or half-assed designed tbh. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Zixxa Vagabond is absolute top of HACs. Tempest is absolute top of fleet BS. ever heard of an ishtar? cerb? (maybe you cant catch the vaga, but he isn't gonna tank you either) how about megathron? (some might argue better sniper than temp, i think its 6 to one 1/2 dozen to the other) hear there is somethingn coming out called a Rohk? there is no 'absolute top' of any ship class.
K8 T	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Aren't you a guy that made an alt Aren't you the guy who bought Kilrock from Jim Raynor for a couple o' bil some time ago? I heard this on TS, so it must be true.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:34:00 - [21] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 17/11/2006 00:36:46 Originally by: K8 T Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Aren't you a guy that made an alt Aren't you the guy who bought Kilrock from Jim Raynor for a couple o' bil some time ago? I heard this on TS, so it must be true. Linkage Originally by: Rod Blaine arbitrary ship ratings It would be helpful if you could come up with some kind of logic behind those ratings, otherwise it really doesn't add much to the discussion.
K8 T	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: K8 T Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Aren't you a guy that made an alt Aren't you the guy who bought Kilrock from Jim Raynor for a couple o' bil some time ago? I heard this on TS, so it must be true. Linkage I know who he is.. But KilROCK isn't his main either. Re-read what you quoted. This alt-posting crap is getting out of hand
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:39:00 - [23] Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 17/11/2006 00:39:11 Real List Rifter = fine cheetah = top Sabre = top Stiletto = top tackler Claw = fine jaguar = fine wolf = need boost with artys stabber = fine rupture = fine vagabond = fine Sleipner = fine Munin = needs a boost phoon = needs a role change tempest = needs a huge boost with ACs and minor boost for Artys post Kali tier3 Minnie BS = needs a role change Naglfar = needs a boost Nidohggur = needs a boost Guess it goes either way. Caldari are all "fine" or "best" Amarr are all "needs a boost" besides 1 or 2
Andrea Jaruwalski Caldari Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:41:00 - [24] Edited by: Andrea Jaruwalski on 17/11/2006 00:46:46 Quote: Rifter = top Rifter is pretty much a good well rounded ship, but the punisher is very close and alot of rifter pilot switch to it. Quote: cheetah = top It's only top for catching snipers, getting warp in points, and actually moving around. Buzzard and Helios are pretty much the good covert ops. But that will change in Kali. Quote: Sabre = top Sabre is only top because it's the kind of versatility and doesn't have PG or CPU issues like all the other interdictors, simple enough. It doesn't have a ** based weaponry layout either. Again, the sabre isn't the best for all situations, where other interdictors are well able to perform better. Quote: Stiletto = fine Hmm. Stiletto is fine. Yea, Well. It's the best tackler, it can * ECM/EW to maybe surprise other ships, but it's not exactly good, but then again... Look at other races, Ares is a cheapo taranis, Raptor is rather crap, and there's not much point using a malediction over a crusader if you don't care about your 3rd midslot. Quote: Claw = fine It's being suffering a bit since damage controls came in. Null and all the good stuff that made it die to a taranis. I always use artillery on mine and i wish they'd increase the ed locking range. Quote: vagabond = top It's not that "top", It's costy, it's hard to fly it effectivly and not DIE. Lag kills you, a mistake with interceptor kills you. Web kills you, any decently fitted battleship kills you. Now those apply to most hacs, but vagabond isn't on top. Quote: phoon = fine Split weaponry and when a ship is most used with nanos, nos and torps/cruise, you need to ask yourself if the ship is really fine or just needs a ed role. Quote: tempest = fine Tempest is fine. In many situations, i'd pick megathron over it everytime tho. Pretty much your whole opinion on minmatar ship is based on your view of their roles in large roaming gangs, fleet fights and solo roaming around.. Most classes are outclassed by other races but wow, we do have some decent ships for getting warp in spots faster, dropping bubbles and maybe killing a frigate before getting 1 volley'ed by a tempest, running around like fools with nanos because the ship has no roles or pretending to have the best hac because we kill npcers, evade camps and stab it up 60% of the time. Originally by:** K8 T Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski Aren't you a guy that made an alt Aren't you the guy who bought Kilrock from Jim Raynor for a couple o' bil some time ago? I heard this on TS, so it must be true. KilROCK was bought from Jim Raynor after the real guy quit the game to play the expected soon to be released magical WOW. I've sold my main back a long time ago and i did get KilROCK since i was sick of playing Caldari. As for mains, KilROCK is now my main and noone will ever change that. It's been like that for years and thanks for including this crap in this topic. I just love alts with no content to back their crap up and feel like this will cause problems. WTS PILGRIM + CURSE + T2 DRONES PACKS
K8 T	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:42:00 - [25] If you think Jaguar is just plain 'fine' you need your head examined. Its currently tied for best frigate ingame and in Kali it will be top dog. The other day I dueled a Nos/blaster Ishkur, popped 2 waves of T2 drones and got the pod too.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.11.17 00:51:00 - [26] My two biggest beefs with Minmatar are as follows: Large autocannon DPS: too low, needs boosting. It doesn't need to be as high as Gallente or Amarr (nor should it be), but it does need an increase. The sleipnir's inability to scramble while running a command-ship level tank. Simple fix: move a lowslot to a medium slot. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Rod Blaine wolf = crap Claw = mega crap I'll correct you on two.
Kashre Minmatar Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 03:43:00 - [28] Everyone else runs around complaining about how minmatar are the sux for solo. I just bring a couple buddies in tacklers and kill stuff. If you want solo minmatar get a vagabond, or a nanophoon, or a jag. I don't even think the nerfed Hurricane is all that bad tbh. Although the Wolf does kind of suck. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:05:00 - [29] I dunno why the minmatar player are complaining so much all of a sudden. You guys have a lot of very good ships. Rifter - probably best T1 frig. Amazing ship Jaguar - scary effective tackler. Stiletto - an interceptor with extra midslots? Sheesh that's nice. Stabber - I see these all the time, very nice t1 cruiser. Hoarder - isn't this the biggest industrial you can get for 2 skill? Rupture - a match for the thorax in every way, and that says it all. Vagabond - best HAC 3 times over? Huginn - KING at catching interceptors. Can solo a vagabond. Cyclone - good, solid ship. Hurricane - so good it's already been nerfed. Tempest - excellent sniper, excellent in close with autocannons. Typhoon - Nanophoons omgwtfpwn the blasterthrons you seem so scared of. Naglfar - Highest DPS dread vs a POS. Yah that's something to whine about That's an awful lot of really great ships for so many whines.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:19:00 - [30] Originally by: HankMurphy /me waits for the next asinine post listing every ship w/ a one to three word comment beside it obviously proving that our race is teh badarsest of them all And there's your problem. You're the type of player who thinks something sucks if it's not absolutely the best at everything a certain class of ship could possibly be asked to do.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:22:00 - [31] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Naglfar - Highest DPS dread vs a POS. Yah that's something to whine about Dread DPS Comparison Don't you mean lowest DPS dread with the worst tank of all the dreads vs. a POS? Autocannons and Blasters don't really work for most POS sieges due to their short range, looking at the Naglfar with artillery it does the least damage of all the dreads and has to buy an extra capital weapon and sacrifice its tank for the privilege. Now thats something to whine about indeed.
Imhotep Khem Total Mayhem.	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:27:00 - [32] Because 'M' is last. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Risien Drogonne Naglfar - Highest DPS dread vs a POS. Yah that's something to whine about Dread DPS Comparison Don't you mean lowest DPS dread with the worst tank of all the dreads vs. a POS? Autocannons and Blasters don't really work for most POS sieges due to their short range, looking at the Naglfar with artillery it does the least damage of all the dreads and has to buy an extra capital weapon and sacrifice its tank for the privilege. Now thats something to whine about indeed. Nice try. I can't believe you actually tried to include drone DPS against a POS. And a base 8km optimal with 32km falloff is fine.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:32:00 - [34] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: HankMurphy /me waits for the next asinine post listing every ship w/ a one to three word comment beside it obviously proving that our race is teh badarsest of them all And there's your problem. You're the type of player who thinks something sucks if it's not absolutely the best at everything a certain class of ship could possibly be asked to do. i am? no, i'm the type of player that see's good and bad in just about every ship. what makes a ship is its pilot. IN FACT, i fly just about every race's ships and most faction ships. I love underdogs (the reason i picked this race, its in our description btw) and enjoy making a ship that most wouldn't fly in pvp successful. I dont need the best of a certain class to kill ppl and most of all, i try not to make rash decisions about ppl based off one sentance i saw on the forum (think i'v had to much coffe tonight??!! read on...) now we've discussed what type of player i am (i was gonna steer away from personal attacks) we can discuss you. I'll keep it brief and leave further comments up to the public but i think i could start with: You're f**ing ret***ed.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:39:00 - [35] Originally by: Zixxa Vagabond is absolute top of HACs. Tempest is absolute top of fleet BS. what game do you play? vagabond is only good at killing NPCers. You can do that in a crow with a gist A mwd and a TS disruptor just as easy. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:40:00 - [36] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 17/11/2006 04:41:35 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Nice try. I can't believe you actually tried to include drone DPS against a POS. And a base 8km optimal with 32km falloff is fine. Never used sentry drones? And 8km optimal with 32km falloff means you miss almost every other shot while shooting a large POS. That'll really help DPS.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:47:00 - [37] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 17/11/2006 04:41:35 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Nice try. I can't believe you actually tried to include drone DPS against a POS. And a base 8km optimal with 32km falloff is fine. Never used sentry drones? And 8km optimal with 32km falloff means you miss almost every other shot while shooting a large POS. That'll really help DPS. No it doesn't because that's base, and will be modified by ammo.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.17 04:51:00 - [38] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 17/11/2006 04:41:35 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Nice try. I can't believe you actually tried to include drone DPS against a POS. And a base 8km optimal with 32km falloff is fine. Never used sentry drones? And 8km optimal with 32km falloff means you miss almost every other shot while shooting a large POS. That'll really help DPS. No it doesn't because that's base, and will be modified by ammo. Yep.. modified 50% downward... now its even worse!
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.17 05:01:00 - [39] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 17/11/2006 05:02:37 Originally by: Risien Drogonne I dunno why the minmatar player are complaining so much all of a sudden. You guys have a lot of very good ships. Rifter - probably best T1 frig. Amazing ship So is the Punisher, Incursus, merlin and kestrel. It depends on what you want to do. Quote: Jaguar - scary effective tackler. LOL. Do you really expect people to take an autocannon, passive shield tanking ship into combat as a tackler? The stiletto and crow are FAR better at tackling. WTF. Quote: Stiletto - an interceptor with extra midslots? Sheesh that's nice. Its still no tarranis or crow. It holds no candle to the claw. Quote: Stabber - I see these all the time, very nice t1 cruiser. So is the vexor, blackbird, caracal, thorax, omen, arbitrator and maller. Seeing them in space doesn't mean they are any better than the next ship. Quote: Hoarder - isn't this the biggest industrial you can get for 2 skill? Bestower's a lot better for 1 skill level. Quote: Rupture - a match for the thorax in every way, and that says it all. It can compete and depending on the pilot's skills they can win. That doesn't make it the best. Quote: Vagabond - best HAC 3 times over? Your kidding right? If you judge a ships effectiveness over others by its ability to kill an NPCer then your a tool. Lets not mention the isk sink involved just to get it there. Put that isk in other HACs and they can ascend to their roles just as equal if not better. Quote: Huginn - KING at catching interceptors. Can solo a vagabond. You can solo a vagabond in man ships if you don't soil your pants at the first sign of it. Quote: Cyclone - good, solid ship. ECM makes it a good, solid ship. Its no Brutix however and it never will be. Quote: Hurricane - so good it's already been nerfed. One minute Tux thinks the Maelstrom bonus is crap and the next minute he thinks the Hurricane is too good. The John Kerry of EVE developers. So he keeps the Maelstrom bonus in and quats diarrea all over the hurricane. To be honest... the Harbinger was the best BC and the javlin HAMS looked too awesome to be true. The only truth now is the Harbinger is still the best BC and now the hurricane and drake are disapointing. Quote: Tempest - excellent sniper, excellent in close with autocannons. Good alpha strike... in the right fleets hands an excellent sniper. Has been the backseat of snipers next to the Megathron ,save for its alpha, since transversal speed was added to the tracking formula. This is effectivly over in KALI. Autocannon Tempest has been outclassed by the megathron since the mega's buff. It is hardly anything to right home about. Quote: Typhoon - Nanophoons omgwtfpwn the blasterthrons you seem so scared of. Don't make me laugh. Quote: Naglfar - Highest DPS dread vs a POS. Yah that's something to whine about LOL do you even fly dreads? Do you even know how gimped the Naglfar is? You can't even shield tank it without a billion isk in faction and officer gear. And its damage output with armor tanking is nothing to right home about. Quote: That's an awful lot of really great ships for so many whines. That's an aweful lot of hearsay and selective statements to try to play devil's advocate. Stick to your day job. Some of us vet minnie pilots are cross trained and own other races accounts that can see right through your BS. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Axitikus Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.11.17 05:10:00 - [40] I fly Caldari, Gallente, and Minnie up to the BS level, and have only taken Minnie t2 training to the frig level (I started Minmatar, too). Maybe when i can fly/use t2 for the other 2 all the way through BS and maybe Gallente capitals I can be bothered to take minnie t2 training to the cruiser level. Before you start flaming, I am too tired to post facts and it wouldn't matter to you would be flamers anyways, I just wanted to give you the opinion of a Minmatar pliot who decided to wisen up and cross train before he got too comitted to Minmatar ships.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.17 05:34:00 - [41] Originally by: Kaylana Syi To be honest... the Harbinger was the best BC and the javlin HAMS looked too awesome to be true. The only truth now is the Harbinger is still the best BC and now the hurricane and drake are disapointing. Care to explain how the Harbinger was/is the best BC? Because every other Tier2 BC with the possible exception of the Myrmidon blows it away.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 05:52:00 - [42] Originally by: Kaylana Syi So is the Punisher, Incursus, merlin and kestrel. It depends on what you want to do. None of those stack up to the pure versatility and effectiveness of the rifter. Originally by: Kaylana Syi LOL. Do you really expect people to take an autocannon, passive shield tanking ship into combat as a tackler? The stiletto and crow are FAR better at tackling. WTF. Try it. The ship is amazing at this role. Originally by: Kaylana Syi Its still no tarranis or crow. It holds no candle to the claw. So your complaint is that the stiletto is crap because it's not as good as the other matari interceptor? Besides the fact that I think you're wrong, that's a pretty silly piece of logic. Originally by: Kaylana Syi So is the vexor, blackbird, caracal, thorax, omen, arbitrator and maller. Seeing them in space doesn't mean they are any better than the next ship. I never see omens and mallers. The blackbird is a different role. The others are great ships too. I thought you guys wanted balance? What is this "omg our ship must be better than everyone else's or it's crap" nonsense? Originally by: Kaylana Syi It can compete and depending on the pilot's skills they can win. That doesn't make it the best. Gee, what was I just saying? Originally by: Kaylana Syi Your kidding right? If you judge a ships effectiveness over others by its ability to kill an NPCer then your a tool. Lets not mention the isk sink involved just to get it there. Put that isk in other HACs and they can ascend to their roles just as equal if not better. First, there are a lot of NPCers out there. Second, the price that players are charging you for this ship HAS NO BEARING on how effective it is. It's that pricey simply because it's the best HAC, not the other way around. Originally by: Kaylana Syi You can solo a vagabond in man ships if you don't soil your pants at the first sign of it. Try catch interceptors in those other ships. Originally by: Kaylana Syi ECM makes it a good, solid ship. Its no Brutix however and it never will be. It competes nicely with the Brutix, just not in the Brutix's territory. That's as it should be. When your weapons cost cap, are limited to 2 damage types and have the shortest range of any weapon in the game, then you too can be omgwtf dps. Originally by: Kaylana Syi One minute Tux thinks the Maelstrom bonus is crap and the next minute he thinks the Hurricane is too good. The John Kerry of EVE developers. So he keeps the Maelstrom bonus in and quats diarrea all over the hurricane. Wah. The hurricane still rocks. The nerf barely touched the DPS. Originally by: Kaylana Syi Autocannon Tempest has been outclassed by the megathron since the mega's buff. It is hardly anything to right home about. Based on your comments about the phoon and the tempest, I'm guessing you don't even fly battleships. Originally by: Kaylana Syi Don't make me laugh. You're pretty unskilled if you can't kill a blasterthron in a nanophoon.
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:37:00 - [43] Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 17/11/2006 06:37:09 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Naglfar - Highest DPS dread vs a POS. Yah that's something to whine about http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=413&highlight=naglfar For a large POS the Rev can fit pulses (and still be inside optimal range) while Nag and Moros have to fit rails/artys. In most situations Nag has the worst dps, the worst capacitor, only 11 slots for tanked ( as opposed to 12 for the other dreads), and the smallest amount of armor against all the other armor tanking dreads. The Nidhoggur also has the worlds most pointless bonus. You can debate the other stuff but Minnie capitals need a huge boost or the other races need a nerf.
Adoran Wa'alle Caldari 5punkorp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Kaylana Syi Don't make me laugh. You're pretty unskilled if you can't kill a blasterthron in a nanophoon. This one I have to agree with. I've witnessed it several times as well as seen it on a few videos. And what's with all the whining all of a sudden? not happy that you, along with the Caldari, are getting a silent boost because of the no-capuse guns? ----------------------------------- Rawr. awrarawr!
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:47:00 - [45] Originally by: Adoran Wa'alle Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Kaylana Syi Don't make me laugh. You're pretty unskilled if you can't kill a blasterthron in a nanophoon. This one I have to agree with. I've witnessed it several times as well as seen it on a few videos. And what's with all the whining all of a sudden? not happy that you, along with the Caldari, are getting a silent boost because of the no-capuse guns? yes but it get very quickly owned by any ships with an optimal over 10km (aka 90%)
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:49:00 - [46] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Azerrad InExile Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 17/11/2006 04:41:35 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Nice try. I can't believe you actually tried to include drone DPS against a POS. And a base 8km optimal with 32km falloff is fine. Never used sentry drones? And 8km optimal with 32km falloff means you miss almost every other shot while shooting a large POS. That'll really help DPS. No it doesn't because that's base, and will be modified by ammo. Yep.. modified 50% downward... now its even worse! Didnt see this discussion before I made my post but yes hes right. Moros has best dps because of sentry drones vs POS and Nag does its best dps against a large POS with artys even at closest range. Rev can use pulse and still be outside the POS shield.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:52:00 - [47] Originally by: Jovius Marginus Originally by: Adoran Wa'alle Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Kaylana Syi Don't make me laugh. You're pretty unskilled if you can't kill a blasterthron in a nanophoon. This one I have to agree with. I've witnessed it several times as well as seen it on a few videos. And what's with all the whining all of a sudden? not happy that you, along with the Caldari, are getting a silent boost because of the no-capuse guns? yes but it get very quickly owned by any ships with an optimal over 10km (aka 90%) Untrue. Yes, it'll get owned by missile chuckers. But never by battleship guns. It moves too fast.
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:53:00 - [48] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus Originally by: Adoran Wa'alle Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Kaylana Syi Don't make me laugh. You're pretty unskilled if you can't kill a blasterthron in a nanophoon. This one I have to agree with. I've witnessed it several times as well as seen it on a few videos. And what's with all the whining all of a sudden? not happy that you, along with the Caldari, are getting a silent boost because of the no-capuse guns? yes but it get very quickly owned by any ships with an optimal over 10km (aka 90%) Untrue. Yes, it'll get owned by missile chuckers. But never by battleship guns. It moves too fast. Except an MWD boosts your sig by 500% so if anything can keep its cap and shoot the phoon the phoon will atleast have to warp.
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:55:00 - [49] Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 17/11/2006 06:56:10 Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 17/11/2006 06:55:32 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus Originally by: Adoran Wa'alle Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Kaylana Syi Don't make me laugh. You're pretty unskilled if you can't kill a blasterthron in a nanophoon. This one I have to agree with. I've witnessed it several times as well as seen it on a few videos. And what's with all the whining all of a sudden? not happy that you, along with the Caldari, are getting a silent boost because of the no-capuse guns? yes but it get very quickly owned by any ships with an optimal over 10km (aka 90%) Untrue. Yes, it'll get owned by missile chuckers. But never by battleship guns. It moves too fast. Also by your failure to reply I'm guessing you fully agree with and support any Matar cap ship boosts/other dread nerfs.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:57:00 - [50] Originally by: Jovius Marginus Also by your failure to reply I'm guessing you fully agree with and support any Matar cap ship boosts/other dread nerfs. I agree that I was wrong about the DPS, yes.
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:58:00 - [51] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus Also by your failure to reply I'm guessing you fully agree with and support any Matar cap ship boosts/other dread nerfs. I agree that I was wrong about the DPS, yes. and given the fact that everything else I posted was true the only logical conclusion is that the Nag is by far the worst Dread with no up-sides at all and needs balancing
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 06:58:00 - [52] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 17/11/2006 06:59:47 Originally by: Jovius Marginus Except an MWD boosts your sig by 500% so if anything can keep its cap and shoot the phoon the phoon will atleast have to warp. Maybe this is something you can't show on paper and just need to go try. It's the only way you'll see that this isn't how it works, even though it SEEMS like it should. In essence, it doesn't matter how big something is if it has more transversal than your guns can track.
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:00:00 - [53] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus Except an MWD boosts your sig by 500% so if anything can keep its cap and shoot the phoon the phoon will atleast have to warp. Maybe this is something you can't show on paper and just need to go try. It's the only way you'll see that this isn't how it works, even though it SEEMS like it should. tbh the nanophoon is just a vaga with less speed, dps, and tank. Only thing it has are nos and ECM which are better on a Dominix so basically nano-Domi beats a nano-phoon.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:01:00 - [54] Originally by: Jovius Marginus [and given the fact that everything else I posted was true the only logical conclusion is that the Nag is by far the worst Dread with no up-sides at all and needs balancing Sorry but no. You're overlooking the fact that the matari dread's weapons use no cap and can change damage type at will.
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:02:00 - [55] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus [and given the fact that everything else I posted was true the only logical conclusion is that the Nag is by far the worst Dread with no up-sides at all and needs balancing Sorry but no. You're overlooking the fact that the matari dread's weapons use no cap and can change damage type at will. So can the phoenix and it does more dps, has more tanking slots, more shield, more cap, and costs less to fit.
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:02:00 - [56] Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 17/11/2006 07:02:59 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus Except an MWD boosts your sig by 500% so if anything can keep its cap and shoot the phoon the phoon will atleast have to warp. Maybe this is something you can't show on paper and just need to go try. It's the only way you'll see that this isn't how it works, even though it SEEMS like it should. tbh the nanophoon is just a vaga with less speed, dps, and tank. Only thing it has are nos and ECM which are better on a Dominix so basically nano-Domi beats a nano-phoon. Oh yah, and those pesky cruise missile launchers... How is the dominix going to hit the nanophoon, exactly? It's faster than heavy drones. My point was if you fit nanos on any BS you get the same result and a nano-Domi would be more effective than a nano-phoon.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:02:00 - [57] Originally by: Jovius Marginus Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus Except an MWD boosts your sig by 500% so if anything can keep its cap and shoot the phoon the phoon will atleast have to warp. Maybe this is something you can't show on paper and just need to go try. It's the only way you'll see that this isn't how it works, even though it SEEMS like it should. tbh the nanophoon is just a vaga with less speed, dps, and tank. Only thing it has are nos and ECM which are better on a Dominix so basically nano-Domi beats a nano-phoon. Oh yah, and those pesky cruise missile launchers... How is the dominix going to hit the nanophoon, exactly? It's faster than heavy drones.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:04:00 - [58] Originally by: Jovius Marginus My point was if you fit nanos on any BS you get the same result and a nano-Domi would be more effective than a nano-phoon. Wrong though. A nanodomi can't scoop its drones, meaning all you gotta do is kill them.
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:06:00 - [59] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus My point was if you fit nanos on any BS you get the same result and a nano-Domi would be more effective than a nano-phoon. Wrong though. A nanodomi can't scoop its drones, meaning all you gotta do is kill them. A Domi would have 3 waves though and its drones would be 50% more effective than a Domi. Also a nano-phoon cant scoop its drones either. Balancing a ship based on that fact that with nanos it can kill a blaster Mega isnt very good balance.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:07:00 - [60] Originally by: Jovius Marginus So can the phoenix and it does more dps, has more tanking slots, more shield, more cap, and costs less to fit. http://scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=413 DPS looks pretty identical to me.
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:08:00 - [61] Basicly AC damage needs to be reduced now that ammo usage is great.Vagabond speed boni needs to be removed.The tempest needs 1 less mid,and mabye less grid.claw needs even less grid,and the stillo 3 mids.Hurricane needs a mid removed also,possibly remove one from the sleipnir too.Remove half the speed of the phoon less grid.Jaguar needs 2 mids removed! and wolf needs 1 less mid ofc its so obvious! Also rupture is kinda okish so remove its drone bay and last 2 missle slots. In all honesty minmatar are way to overpowered.Who ever gets scared of a soloing megathron? pfffft.Everytime a minmatar ship warps in its just death and decay.And clearly this is not inline with them being slaves and having cheap sorta make shift ships. Please nerf minmatar,buff gallante EVEN MORE --- "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:08:00 - [62] Originally by: Jovius Marginus Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 17/11/2006 07:06:46 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus My point was if you fit nanos on any BS you get the same result and a nano-Domi would be more effective than a nano-phoon. Wrong though. A nanodomi can't scoop its drones, meaning all you gotta do is kill them. A Domi would have 3 waves though and its drones would be 50% more effective than a nano-phoon. Also a nano-phoon cant scoop its drones either. Balancing a ship based on that fact that with nanos it can kill a blaster Mega isnt very good balance. It's the cruise missiles that kill on the nanophoon. GO TRY IT.
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:08:00 - [63] Yes but phonenix gets to pick 100% of its damage while Nag can only pick 50%. Also Phoenix still has all the other advantages.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:11:00 - [64] Originally by: Jovius Marginus Yes but phonenix gets to pick 100% of its damage while Nag can only pick 50%. Also Phoenix still has all the other advantages. What? What are all these then? Linkage
MellaRinn Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:12:00 - [65] Edited by: MellaRinn on 17/11/2006 07:12:18 Originally by: xeom Basicly AC damage needs to be reduced now that ammo usage is great.Vagabond speed boni needs to be removed.The tempest needs 1 less mid,and mabye less grid.claw needs even less grid,and the stillo 3 mids.Hurricane needs a mid removed also,possibly remove one from the sleipnir too.Remove half the speed of the phoon less grid.Jaguar needs 2 mids removed! and wolf needs 1 less mid ofc its so obvious! Also rupture is kinda okish so remove its drone bay and last 2 missle slots. In all honesty minmatar are way to overpowered.Who ever gets scared of a soloing megathron? pfffft.Everytime a minmatar ship warps in its just death and decay.And clearly this is not inline with them being slaves and having cheap sorta make shift ships. Please nerf minmatar,buff gallante EVEN MORE ^ this is the biggest matari whining anti-gallente horse in corp - don;t listen to him lololo Click
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:14:00 - [66] Originally by: MellaRinn Edited by: MellaRinn on 17/11/2006 07:12:18 Originally by: xeom Basicly AC damage needs to be reduced now that ammo usage is great.Vagabond speed boni needs to be removed.The tempest needs 1 less mid,and mabye less grid.claw needs even less grid,and the stillo 3 mids.Hurricane needs a mid removed also,possibly remove one from the sleipnir too.Remove half the speed of the phoon less grid.Jaguar needs 2 mids removed! and wolf needs 1 less mid ofc its so obvious! Also rupture is kinda okish so remove its drone bay and last 2 missle slots. In all honesty minmatar are way to overpowered.Who ever gets scared of a soloing megathron? pfffft.Everytime a minmatar ship warps in its just death and decay.And clearly this is not inline with them being slaves and having cheap sorta make shift ships. Please nerf minmatar,buff gallante EVEN MORE ^ this is the biggest matari whining anti-gallente horse in corp - don;t listen to him lololo Says the underpowered gallante. --- "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:15:00 - [67] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 17/11/2006 07:06:46 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus My point was if you fit nanos on any BS you get the same result and a nano-Domi would be more effective than a nano-phoon. Wrong though. A nanodomi can't scoop its drones, meaning all you gotta do is kill them. A Domi would have 3 waves though and its drones would be 50% more effective than a nano-phoon. Also a nano-phoon cant scoop its drones either. Balancing a ship based on that fact that with nanos it can kill a blaster Mega isnt very good balance. It's the cruise missiles that kill on the nanophoon. GO TRY IT. Phoon with 4 cruise IIs 5 Orge IIs gets 407 dps Dom with 5 Orge IIs and 2 dual 250 IIs w/AM gets 477 Those are quickfit numbers and Dom has 3 waves
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:17:00 - [68] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 17/11/2006 07:23:28 Originally by: Risien Drogonne http://scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=413 DPS looks pretty identical to me. Except that the Phoenix is a shiled tanker and has plenty of low slots left over for BCUs which aren't included in that chart. The Naglfar can't really shield tank and in an armor tank config doesn't have enough low slots for extra damage mods. Not to mention that due to the split weapon system any damage mod it did fit would only apply to 1/2 of its weapons. Originally by: Risien Drogonne What? What are all these then? Linkage Those are a bunch of projectile ammos which always have damage types which are split. For example, EMP will do EM/EXP/KIN, Fusion will do EXP/KIN, Phased plasma will do KIN/THERM, etc. The Phoenix on the other hand can choose 100% EM or 100% EXP or 100% KIN or 100% THERM damage with the downfall that it will lose the 5% kinetic missle damage bonus if it doesn't use kinetic missiles. Edit: Bah.. too slow on the edit
Jovius Marginus Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.11.17 07:18:00 - [69] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus Yes but phonenix gets to pick 100% of its damage while Nag can only pick 50%. Also Phoenix still has all the other advantages. What? What are all these then? Linkage All those are fusion which means you cant do all one damage type. Also if you want the best dps you need to use fusion which means moslty Exp damage.
Riho Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolance	Posted - 2006.11.17 09:48:00 - [70] Originally by: Azerrad InExile Apprently its because Matari have 1 ship that can be very good when you spend billions outfitting it. Because of that, the rest of our ships suffer. Everytime someone complains about anything Minmatar related, the answer invariably comes back: "Quit complaining, you have the Vagabond". Honestly at this point I'm going to say, nerf the Vagabond and bring the rest of the Minmatar fleet up to par. lol, minni underpowerd... ahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahaha XD take Rupture..... what t1 cruiser can be better... it can fit nos, med drones, good weapons, tank. vaga.... not going there, evryone knows stabber, speed and nice dmg and can tank ok... atleast the fleet version is silly :P typhoon, can be hard... IF u decide what you want from it.... too meny setups to mention. wolf.... can kill BSs solo... but takes time :) rifter :) best t1 frig ever sleipnir and so on you guys have enough ships that are VERY good... so think about it abit
K8 T	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:39:00 - [71] This has got to be the most pointless thread ever. Just because Minmatar aren't that groovy for NPC'ing doesn't mean you carebear tards should whine about it Best T1 frig: Rifter, Punisher Best T2 frigs: Jaguar for tanking and killing AFs and bigger ships. Claw for inty dogfights and Stiletto for tackling. Best T1 Cruiser: Rupture, by a mile. Best T2 Cruiser: Vagabond of course Best T1 Bcruiser: Brutix Best T2 Bcruiser: Sleipnir (Hello, 6k DPS tank in combat fit?) Best Bship: Really depends on what you're after but Tempest is up there with the best of them. Typhoon is a great tier 1 BS too. Get a clue please and stop making your race look bad. You want bad, go train Amarr.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:02:00 - [72] Rifter = top Our KB data says it's the most used as well as most killed tech 1 frig. We fly it faaaar more then any othe tech1 frig because it imply owns because of its combination of speed and damage. Remember we're talking actual warfare here, not some imaginary testserver 1v1 where a Punisher squares off against a Rifter, Kestrel and Tristan one by one to compare or whatever. cheetah = top. Cheetah is the top covops ingame, period. Ask any covops pilot in BoB about it. I'm actually probably the guy that flies buzzards most of all (when not flying cheetahs) because I simply like the medslots that allow me to tackle and add some EW support or something. But for setting up, general tackling and tactical positining, the cheetah owns them all. Sabre = top. Ok, this might be because well, I simply love my Sabre. I fly Flycathcers too actually, and have quite alot, but tbh, they suck compared to the Sabre. Sabre pwns them for fitting, damage, and most importantly for pure speed and manouverability. Ah Flycatcher is more often then not popped on approach in larger fights. A Sabre won't be, it's simply too ** fast and with one or two med extenders it's not going down fast either. The Sabre can take on anything up to and probably including battleships if you reserve one slot for an EW mod instead of extender. It's absolutely, undoubtedly, irrefutably the top in its class. Stiletto = fine. I like my stiletto's too. Why ? Not because you get lots of kills, or because they will own any ship except maybe a tech1 frig, but because when my stiletto scrambles an enemy ship it is not going anywhere. Add to that a slot or two left over for EW and you have a very very very nice interceptor. Claw = fine. What can I say. It may have been the top of it's class (it was, you know it), it no longer is. It is however still used lots by pilots that could switch to for example Crows and don't because they find the claw more fun or more usefull due to its speed or whatever. Don't ask me, don't fly it often even tho it still gets flown alot. jaguar = fine. Yes well, what can one say. Best AF in town probably but I left you room to argue that the Enyo, Ishkur or maybe Harpy are just as good. They're not once Kali comes, but hey, that's not now is it ? wolf = fine. still a nice choice for doing the frig-popping support ship bit. It does nicely at that afaik, and still is a popular choice judging from our KB's. stabber = fine. The stabber often seems to be used as a poor man's Vagabond. seems well popular these days. I cba flying it tho, so this is purely on how often I see tech1 cruiser lovers show up in these. rupture = fine. Still popular, hell, evenmore so since it got to be near to the top in its class. People still prefer the Thorax tho due to the drones it seems, and nubs still prefer the caracal. See our KB, search for these ships and judeg for yourself. vagabond = top. Well, it is. It's used as much as the Deimos and Zealot are on our KB, but that's due to the period in which those two absolutely ruled the skies. The Ishtar for example, is used MUCH less according to our KB. The strenght of the Vaga is i it's ability to pick and choose and with how ahrd it is to trap. It's price if no excuse for but a result of that. Currently, it's too good at what it does imo. phoon = fine. The Phoon has not been used at all for about two years. Sad, but no longer true. It's becoming quite popular for roaming gang work where BS are involved and for soloing. Just ask Omniscient Order how they feel about the Phoon. tempest = fine. It is, still used as much as the other gunboats and always will. So yeah, it's autcannons don't do it like Ryan Routine used to these days, and balsters got a bit better (temporarily). Big ***** deal. It's still a fine tier 2 battleship and people still fly it as much as ever. You guys are way too hung up on some perceived shortcomings that matter little overall. Old blog
Tassill Minmatar GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:06:00 - [73] I like my minmatar ships and I aggree with people that we can get the job done and get it done well but some of this ship rating is absolute boloks The rifter is a nice frig, i use it to do my shopping in empire i guess people like it because it is a cheap tackler ie it dosent cost u much when it gets blown up but that dose not nesseceraly make it a good ship The claw and stilleto are nice intys but lets be honest here the taranis is better than both, the crow is better than both, and the crusader is imo better than the claw The rupture is good no doubt about it... if u have cruiser 4-5 and get that double damage bonus working but what about the newer players who actually fly t1 cruisers how are they going to go? Stabber is nice for the same reason as the vaga, no need for a scout so its good for solo work but appart from that i would rate the arbitrator and vexor much higher.... not to mention the caracal and the blackbird Munnin is ok, but it realy needs some loving altough this seems to be a bit of a trend with teir 1 based hac's. Deimos needs some, lord knows the sacrilege needs some.... i guess the eagle is the exception as it is a great sniper Vaga is great if u are a pirate or play by yourself a lot, dont need to worry about about gate camps but compare it in a 1 vs 1 situation with teh cerberus or ishkur and it dosent realy stand a chance especially if they galente and caldari pilots spend the billion isk on pirate plants that the minmatar pilot needs to be effective. Not sure about the zealot so no comment Cyclone is good i like it as it is but the shield tanking bonus is a bit waisted unless u are running lvl 3's or have a tackler with you command ships no comment realy, except that i have a copy of the tournement and if u want to watch it again you will see that the minmatar command ships have a pretty crappy tank compared with the other races and that was with no tackling mods!! recons- the rapier and huginn are nice but we get that pointless bouns that should not be named. who even fits a target painter on their huginn or rapier... show of hands please. It is realy only any good if you are in a gang with ravens. Other than that the other recons are also excelent ships hard to compare directly tho as there roles are so specific i have no idea about covert opps ships but i can see how the cheetah could be rated as the best Dictor - yeah the saber is nice but when there role is just to drop bubbles who wouldnt just go buy the cheapest one..... i know i do bs- I realy like minmatar bs and i think that they are headed in the right direction with the arty boost that is comming and now that hail is un-nerfed on sisi carriers - there should be no argument here the minmatar one is no good and needs to fixed appart from the bonus being a bit unusable cap remote reps use way to much cap to use for any period in fleet fights while maintaing your own tank i have no ideas about dreads, but the nafalga is a sexy beast to look at our large transport ship has the lowest amount of cargo space :( hmmm i think tha tabout sums up my rant ps: explosive damge is overrated and many/most minmatar pilots use phased plasma in a lot of engagments. with exp/ken ammo (which is the main minmatar damage type) we take the longest of any race to take down shields and then get to armour where we find taht the person has an exp hardner fitted.... honestly who pvp's with no exp hardner
Sun Ra Godspeed You Black Emperor	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:10:00 - [74] Edited by: Sun Ra on 17/11/2006 12:26:39 Originally by: Rod Blaine phoon = fine Originally by: Risien Drogonne Typhoon - Nanophoons omgwtfpwn the blasterthrons you seem so scared of. phoon fine ? sure u can nano them but thats gonna be gone next week Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas'
carleyjones Caldari Blood and Silver	Posted - 2006.11.17 13:38:00 - [75] Originally by: Rod Blaine Rifter = top (FINE - the punisher is an equal ship) Sabre = top (never flown one so i dont know) Stiletto = fine ( only at tackling) Claw = fine (hmm crow and taranis... nuff said) jaguar/wolf = fine (about on par with the other races afs) stabber = fine (until it gets shot) rupture = fine (until the forum whiners get it nerffed) vagabond = top (errm... its a good ship, but top? i think peeps have built this ship up abit) phoon = fine (was much maligned until recently) tempest = fine (yep but still second rate to gallente equivilents) edited for you to be honest, the minnies dont really need to be nerfed as much as it seems they r going to be. look at any ship class with the exception of t1 frigs and gallente are almost nearly always better. how people can moan about 1600mm plated ruptures being over powered when the space french are flying around in nossing,ecming solopwning droneboats is beyond me. caldari is eve easy mode and gallente is pvp easy mode
jerrard iceni Minmatar Knights of Chaos	Posted - 2006.11.17 17:58:00 - [76] Originally by: Riho what t1 cruiser can be better... it can fit nos, med drones, good weapons, tank. what? u mean like the thorax for example? Originally by: Riho stabber, speed and nice dmg and can tank ok errr... ok. the stabber tanks fine until it starts getting hit and webbed.
jerrard iceni Minmatar Knights of Chaos	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:22:00 - [77] Originally by: Rod Blaine Rifter = top Our KB data says it's the most used as well as most killed tech 1 frig. so its the most used frig on YOUR kb, that doesnt prove anything about its abilities. the kestrel and punisher are easily the equal of the rifter and if anything the punisher is better for soloing cruisers, plus caldari and gallente have other t1 frigs that can be used in pvp with some success. minmater only have the rifter as a viable t1 pvp frig. Originally by: Rod Blaine Stiletto = fine. because when my stiletto scrambles an enemy ship it is not going anywhere. Add to that a slot or two left over for EW and you have a very very very nice interceptor. Claw = fine. What can I say. It may have been the top of it's class (it was, you know it), it no longer is. It is however still used lots by pilots that could switch to for example Crows and don't because they find the claw more fun both intys are nice fun ships, but like someone else has already mentioned the crow and taranis are much better intys the claw is about on par with the crusader. Originally by: Rod Blaine jaguar = fine. Yes well, what can one say. Best AF in town probably wolf = fine. still a nice choice for doing the frig-popping support ship bit. the ishkur is better than both these afs, the usual gallente trick of nos, web, drones etc. i dont need to say more Originally by: Rod Blaine stabber = fine. The stabber often seems to be used as a poor man's Vagabond. rupture = fine. Still popular, hell, evenmore so since it got to be near to the top in its class. People still prefer the Thorax tho due to the drones it seems, both fine ships, but like u said people prefer the thorax, why? because its easier to fit and fly in pvp and the drones give it an edge over any other t1 cruiser. u seem to have forgotten about the old nossing vexor droneboat, again a very good ship in pvp.
F Apparition Minmatar Life Extermination New Eden Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:25:00 - [78] Edited by: F Apparition on 17/11/2006 18:25:34 I'm sure the remaining claw/stiletto pilots will also be upset to hear the new tracking penalty that comes with barrage now.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:30:00 - [79] Originally by: Jovius Marginus Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus Edited by: Jovius Marginus on 17/11/2006 07:06:46 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Jovius Marginus My point was if you fit nanos on any BS you get the same result and a nano-Domi would be more effective than a nano-phoon. Wrong though. A nanodomi can't scoop its drones, meaning all you gotta do is kill them. A Domi would have 3 waves though and its drones would be 50% more effective than a nano-phoon. Also a nano-phoon cant scoop its drones either. Balancing a ship based on that fact that with nanos it can kill a blaster Mega isnt very good balance. It's the cruise missiles that kill on the nanophoon. GO TRY IT. Phoon with 4 cruise IIs 5 Orge IIs gets 407 dps Dom with 5 Orge IIs and 2 dual 250 IIs w/AM gets 477 Those are quickfit numbers and Dom has 3 waves Psst... stop using cruise missiles. ---------------------------- Please don't try to troll in your signature -Eldo([email protected]) I tried?
solarwinds ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.17 20:34:00 - [80] Rifter A nice balance of speed and durability. Can go toe-to-toe with any other frigate ingame. Can fit nicely for short and long range. Can fit to tackle. No cap guns makes MWD easy to use, less capacitor management required. Learn to fly it properly, keep transversal up and have some fun. Jaguar Great assault ship. A favorite for mauling interceptors and other frigates with long range artillery. A light shield tank (it doesn't need much) gives it great durability and recharge. Fit a scram and go kill some belt ratters in lowsec for the h3ll of it. Also good as -1 scout to shoot down those d@mned hostile interceptors when they make a run for it. Stiletto A favorite for gangs. Has the advantage of being able to fit an extra mid, which can be used for ECM or extra EW. With 2x20km scrams it works pretty good as a lone tackler with some firepower support. Claw More fun as a solo ship, or with one or two others who can keep up. My pre-corp days I used a Claw in the company of a Crow and a Brutix - pure, raw pwnage. Get up in their face fast, lock them down and lay into them with autocannons. I prefer it with AB in gang or MWD when solo. Stabber A lot of fun! A dispoable, low cost heavy tackler. Dual 180mm's, NOS, MWD/web/scram, and whatever in the lows (gyro/plate/nano). Moves fast and has great agility, decent DPS from the fast firing guns (even hits frigs nicely), just really useful in general. I prefer it with 220's and assault launchers fo soloing inties. Rupture Not a big fan really, but has a great alpha strike. Probably more suitable to mobile gangs as a medium range heavy hitter than anything else. I tried the AC/MWD Rupture and I thought it sucked IMO. Load with 720mm's and a ton of gyro's and let 'er rip. Almost like a mini-Tempest. Vagabond Honestly, check the Stabber fit out. Works just as well on the Vaga. Add a MAR II and EANM II. Leave the WCS at home come Kali, fit it to fight. Hopefully Invention will bring the cost of these things down when more people are able to make them. Then you have less of a solo pwnmobile and more of a small gang pwnmobile. Add an inty to help tackle and a damage dealer (or a nanophoon for some Matari fun!) and give 'er. Cyclone Another nice ship. I really like it, personally. Great with a passive shield tank vs. 0.0 rats as a money maker (with 720mm's and heavy launchers). Not my favorit solo ship. In gangs, leave the launchers off and fit with siege warefare modules. In this role, give it some 425mm autocannons and hide it behind the sniper battleships in case a pesky cov-ops tries to get a warp in on you. Otherwise, just sit back and use remote repairers and boosters and buff the rest of your fleets stats. Your enemies will hate you for it. Tempest See the Rupture, except less mobile with better range. Great alpha strike. Perfect for wrecking the cr@p out of enemy battleships when you lock them down at a gate. But if they're moving, they suck donkey b@lls. That's just my opinion of them however, I see them having pretty much one purpose. Typhoon Nanophoons are a lot of fun for solo work. With a load of T2 light and medium drones, cruise launchers, and built for outright speed, it sucks to get close to one. They never need to worry about tracking so they can maintain the speed and still land solid hits while running NOS/Neuts to chew up tank and drones for extra DPS. 7 lows gives you a 5 slot tank with room for a pair of BCU's. Launchers don't use cap, leaving you more for MWD/tanking/sensor boosting/EWmods. Much the same in small gangs. Some say useless in fleet battles, but with two sensor boosters and the rack of cruise launchers, it can join the sniper gang if needed, adding some more damage on target even though it might take a few seconds for impact. Hey, it still gets you on the killmail!
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.11.17 20:47:00 - [81] Originally by: Rod Blaine Rifter = top Our KB data says it's the most used as well as most killed tech 1 frig. We fly it faaaar more then any othe tech1 frig because it imply owns because of its combination of speed and damage. Remember we're talking actual warfare here, not some imaginary testserver 1v1 where a Punisher squares off against a Rifter, Kestrel and Tristan one by one to compare or whatever. Rifter is not top. Its versatile yes. But other frigates are just as good. And in some situations some are better. Punisher comes to mind. Overall Matari are okay in frig and cruiser combat, but just okay. Other point here, is the rifter for a matari ship can be used with very little sp compared to other matari ships. Originally by: Rod Blaine cheetah = top. Cheetah is the top covops ingame, period. Ask any covops pilot in BoB about it. I'm actually probably the guy that flies buzzards most of all (when not flying cheetahs) because I simply like the medslots that allow me to tackle and add some EW support or something. But for setting up, general tackling and tactical positining, the cheetah owns them all. donÆt fly themàbut I hear they work well. I was not aware that they were that much better then other cov ops, I see others around as well. Originally by: Rod Blaine Sabre = top. Ok, this might be because well, I simply love my Sabre. I fly Flycathcers too actually, and have quite alot, but tbh, they suck compared to the Sabre. Sabre pwns them for fitting, damage, and most importantly for pure speed and manouverability. Ah Flycatcher is more often then not popped on approach in larger fights. A Sabre won't be, it's simply too ** fast and with one or two med extenders it's not going down fast either. The Sabre can take on anything up to and probably including battleships if you reserve one slot for an EW mod instead of extender. It's absolutely, undoubtedly, irrefutably the top in its class. Originally by:** Rod Blaine Stiletto = fine. I like my stiletto's too. Why ? Not because you get lots of kills, or because they will own any ship except maybe a tech1 frig, but because when my stiletto scrambles an enemy ship it is not going anywhere. Add to that a slot or two left over for EW and you have a very very very nice interceptor. Best tackler yes, overall a decent ship Originally by: Rod Blaine Claw = fine. What can I say. It may have been the top of it's class (it was, you know it), it no longer is. It is however still used lots by pilots that could switch to for example Crows and don't because they find the claw more fun or more usefull due to its speed or whatever. Don't ask me, don't fly it often even tho it still gets flown alot. Just decent, taranis and crow are better but claw is definitely usueful Originally by: Rod Blaine jaguar = fine. Yes well, what can one say. Best AF in town probably but I left you room to argue that the Enyo, Ishkur or maybe Harpy are just as good. They're not once Kali comes, but hey, that's not now is it ? Jag is probably my favorite ship right now. I would say good not fine. We will see what the tracking on barrage does to that. Hopefully not to bad. Originally by: Rod Blaine wolf = fine. still a nice choice for doing the frig-popping support ship bit. It does nicely at that afaik, and still is a popular choice judging from our KB's. Poor - should have left this off the list. Originally by: Rod Blaine stabber = fine. The stabber often seems to be used as a poor man's Vagabond. seems well popular these days. I cba flying it tho, so this is purely on how often I see tech1 cruiser lovers show up in these. Also a good decent ship, but very situational. A good cheap pvp ship for sure. But nowhere near some other cruisers. Arbiter, thorax, blackbird come to mind as better lower tier cruisers then stabber, also noticed the lack of the belicose on your list.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.11.17 20:48:00 - [82] Edited by: Serapis Aote on 17/11/2006 20:51:06 Originally by: Rod Blaine rupture = fine. Still popular, hell, evenmore so since it got to be near to the top in its class. People still prefer the Thorax tho due to the drones it seems, and nubs still prefer the caracal. See our KB, search for these ships and judeg for yourself. Good cruiser. Sucks at its designed artillery platform roll though. Good with ACs. Takes a lot of SP to get this baby to really shine though. Like I said earlier when it comes to cruisers and frigs, matari are not that bad. Originally by: Rod Blaine vagabond = top. Well, it is. It's used as much as the Deimos and Zealot are on our KB, but that's due to the period in which those two absolutely ruled the skies. The Ishtar for example, is used MUCH less according to our KB. The strenght of the Vaga is i it's ability to pick and choose and with how ahrd it is to trap. It's price if no excuse for but a result of that. Currently, it's too good at what it does imo. I just disagree on this one. ItÆs a good ship, but itÆs a one trick pony. And an expensive one at that (not actual ship cost) but with implants and all, you need that speed because losing is painful. I see more money put into making the vagabond work then anyother hac. To claim that it is hands down better than ishtar is a bit too much for me. Almost all the HACs are real good ship. The Vaga is actually pretty easy not to get killed by, and the fact that its main defense is running seems to be why people think its overpowered. OMG the speed race actually has a ship that is fast. The muninn was probably one of the worst for a long time, we will see what happens in Kali. Originally by: Rod Blaine phoon = fine. The Phoon has not been used at all for about two years. Sad, but no longer true. It's becoming quite popular for roaming gang work where BS are involved and for soloing. Just ask Omniscient Order how they feel about the Phoon. Phoon is better then before, but still just decent. And still is very SP dependent compared to other T1 bs. Originally by: Rod Blaine tempest = fine. It is, still used as much as the other gunboats and always will. So yeah, it's autcannons don't do it like Ryan Routine used to these days, and balsters got a bit better (temporarily). Big ***** deal. It's still a fine tier 2 battleship and people still fly it as much as ever. Fine being the operative word here. Bit better, blasters win automatcally <10km, and still want to be competive against acs at >15km, why? Originally by:** Rod Blaine You guys are way too hung up on some perceived shortcomings that matter little overall. Did you notice something about your post. Lots of fine/decent ships, and a lot of ships not mentioned. Did you notice many arty boats. Tempest would be about it I think. And given blasters recently we had no real AC battleship. So overall you are saying the same thing. Your ships are a decent and you have vagabond to gank newbs, so be happy. You glance over the problem of artillery throughout the entire line of ships. Glance over the fact that a ship like the phoon takes a lot more SP to make it competive compared to other t1 BS.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.11.17 21:09:00 - [83] Rod Blaine, why do you think that the BoB killboard stats are the epitome of all EVE and a perfect place to make balance decisions on? Anyway... the Vagabond's strength is being able to choose fights and run away. How is being able to do that, being 'too effective'? It has its role. It can't do much all-out combat, that is its major drawback. Its good at killing noobs in battleships but other than that... its best relegated to solo players or used as BoB uses it alot, as a heavy tackler. Even though that is a major waste of isk when you can get the same points in a stiletto for much cheaper, if a little less survivability. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.17 22:12:00 - [84] Edited by: Siakel on 17/11/2006 22:17:22 Originally by: Tassill and the crusader is imo better than the claw . . . What? They do extremely close raw DPS, but the Claw has a better tank, far better damage types, and no cap use on its weapons. How exactly does this translate into the Crusader being better? The only time a Crusader could be a better choice is Beamsader vs Artyclaw. Edit: Originally by: Tassill command ships no comment realy, except that i have a copy of the tournement and if u want to watch it again you will see that the minmatar command ships have a pretty crappy tank compared with the other races and that was with no tackling mods!! Wh... what? I'm going to assume this is a joke. I don't remember how they faired in the alliance tourney, but the Minmatar command ships when set up to tank blow most other CBCs out of the water. I say most, because I'm not sure if a Vulture/Nighthawk can outtank them or not.
Tassill Minmatar GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2006.11.17 23:41:00 - [85] Originally by: Siakel Edited by: Siakel on 17/11/2006 22:17:22 Originally by: Tassill and the crusader is imo better than the claw . . . What? They do extremely close raw DPS, but the Claw has a better tank, far better damage types, and no cap use on its weapons. How exactly does this translate into the Crusader being better? The only time a Crusader could be a better choice is Beamsader vs Artyclaw. I said IMO because this point is debatable, however I was certainly not joking and as you have allready pointed out one time the crusader>claw i dont realy see any need to contiue this Quote: quote=Tassill]command ships no comment realy, except that i have a copy of the tournement and if u want to watch it again you will see that the minmatar command ships have a pretty crappy tank compared with the other races and that was with no tackling mods!! Wh... what? I'm going to assume this is a joke. I don't remember how they faired in the alliance tourney, but the Minmatar command ships when set up to tank blow most other CBCs out of the water. I say most, because I'm not sure if a Vulture/Nighthawk can outtank them or not. AS i said in the rest of that quoted passage, go back and watch the torney again if u cant remember the facts. Minmatar command ships set up to tankwere very sub par compared to all other command ships including the absolution and astarte which have insane tanks... I am not saying that minmatar command ships dont have nice tanks but to realy get them going u need a lot of faction mods on them (which werent allowed in the tourney) and when u start using faction mads on the galente caldari amar ships they are just as uber. EG. This guy tanked 10 fighters, a claw, a deimos with 5 x vespa II and a gank setup, and 4 x cruise launchers from a scorp for about 5 mins. He only went down after the scorp got into nos range and we were doing about 2500-3000 dps 2006.11.04 07:29 Victim: Draal Q'ue Alliance: Band of Brothers Corp: Black Eclipse Corp Destroyed: Astarte System: AV-VB6 Security: 0.0 Involved parties: Name: Dr Milyardo (laid the final blow) Security: 0.9 Alliance: NONE Corp: GREY COUNCIL Ship: Thanatos Weapon: Templar Name: namwen Security: 5.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: GREY COUNCIL Ship: Deimos Weapon: Vespa II Name: Tassill Security: 5.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: GREY COUNCIL Ship: Claw Weapon: Claw Name: Iss Hogai Security: 5.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: GREY COUNCIL Ship: Scorpion Weapon: ECM - Multispectral Jammer I Destroyed items: Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer Core X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener Core X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener 250mm Railgun II Cap Recharger II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II Antimatter Charge M, Qty: 33
Tassill Minmatar GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2006.11.17 23:44:00 - [86] Edited by: Tassill on 17/11/2006 23:48:38 Originally by: Tassill Originally by: Siakel Edited by: Siakel on 17/11/2006 22:17:22 Originally by: Tassill and the crusader is imo better than the claw . . . What? They do extremely close raw DPS, but the Claw has a better tank, far better damage types, and no cap use on its weapons. How exactly does this translate into the Crusader being better? The only time a Crusader could be a better choice is Beamsader vs Artyclaw. I said IMO because this point is debatable, however I was certainly not joking and as you have allready pointed out one time the crusader>claw i dont realy see any need to contiue this Originally by: Siakel Originally by: Tassill command ships no comment realy, except that i have a copy of the tournement and if u want to watch it again you will see that the minmatar command ships have a pretty crappy tank compared with the other races and that was with no tackling mods!! Wh... what? I'm going to assume this is a joke. I don't remember how they faired in the alliance tourney, but the Minmatar command ships when set up to tank blow most other CBCs out of the water. I say most, because I'm not sure if a Vulture/Nighthawk can outtank them or not. AS i said in that quoted passage, go back and watch the torney again if u cant remember the facts. Minmatar command ships set up to tank were very sub par compared to all other command ships including the absolution and astarte which have insane tanks... I am not saying that minmatar command ships dont have nice tanks but to realy get them going u need a lot of faction mods on them (which werent allowed in the tourney) and when u start using faction mads on the galente caldari amar ships they are just as uber. EG. This guy tanked 10 fighters, a claw, a deimos with 5 x vespa II and a gank setup, and 4 x cruise launchers from a scorp for about 5 mins. He only went down after the scorp got into nos range and we were doing about 2500-3000 dps 2006.11.04 07:29 Victim: Draal Q'ue Alliance: Band of Brothers Corp: Black Eclipse Corp Destroyed: Astarte System: AV-VB6 Security: 0.0 Involved parties: Name: Dr Milyardo (laid the final blow) Security: 0.9 Alliance: NONE Corp: GREY COUNCIL Ship: Thanatos Weapon: Templar Name: namwen Security: 5.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: GREY COUNCIL Ship: Deimos Weapon: Vespa II Name: Tassill Security: 5.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: GREY COUNCIL Ship: Claw Weapon: Claw Name: Iss Hogai Security: 5.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: GREY COUNCIL Ship: Scorpion Weapon: ECM - Multispectral Jammer I Destroyed items: Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer Core X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener Core X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener 250mm Railgun II Cap Recharger II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II 250mm Railgun II Antimatter Charge M, Qty: 33 Edit fixed quoatation's
Siakel	Posted - 2006.11.17 23:58:00 - [87] Originally by: Tassill Originally by: Siakel Edited by: Siakel on 17/11/2006 22:17:22 Originally by: Tassill and the crusader is imo better than the claw . . . What? They do extremely close raw DPS, but the Claw has a better tank, far better damage types, and no cap use on its weapons. How exactly does this translate into the Crusader being better? The only time a Crusader could be a better choice is Beamsader vs Artyclaw. I said IMO because this point is debatable, however I was certainly not joking and as you have allready pointed out one time the crusader>claw i dont realy see any need to contiue this And I said the one situation it could possibly be better in. I didn't say 'one of the'. The Claw is better than the Crusader in everything but a long-range setup. As I said, I'd hardly call the Crusader better than the Claw. And as to the CBC thing.. no. With a T2 tank, a Sleipnir will outtank an Absolution or an Astarte. And with a faction tank, it will tank ridiculously better, but that's beside the point. And watching the Tourney again would prove what, exactly? The fact that the ship was used doesn't mean it was used well, nor does it mean they were supported well by their team-members. Those CBCs that tanked well were being supported by remote reps and rep drones, they didn't tank all that on their own. Anyway, the alliance tourney, as has been said before, isn't a good basis for balance. I saw 'Dictors survive being hit by a 5-man gang. Doesn't mean 'Dictors tank extremely well and need to be nerfed.
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.11.18 00:46:00 - [88] If the crusader fits a damage control it will win. --- "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
Tassill Minmatar GREY COUNCIL Breidablik	Posted - 2006.11.18 01:16:00 - [89] Edited by: Tassill on 18/11/2006 01:27:00 Edited by: Tassill on 18/11/2006 01:23:35 Siakel, you miss my point entirley about command ships i am not saying that with support the minmatar command ships didnt last as long as the others. In a majority of the battles the command ship was left till last to kill and in every case the other races (galente, caldari and ammar) command ships tanked better than the minmatar. This has nothing to go whit how good the support was as they were compleatly alone. also as for the point about the ships not being used well, the same can be said for the caldari, amarr and galente ships (they were all on teh loosing side) yet they still all tanked better Edit: My point was not that minmatar command ships have great theoretical tanks as some people like to spout random figures, rather it was a practical example of command ships in use and thats what this game is about If you want to keep makking assumptions about how and why the ships performed as they did in the tourny be my guest.. but i suggest you actually watch it before u do so Oh and the crusader is better in a long range setup but claw is better in all others... hm many others are there... hmm well only close so its better at 1 thing ... maby....and as the poster above said not this is not neccessarly true
FraXy Caldari Devils Rejects	Posted - 2006.11.18 05:59:00 - [90] Tassill, i got no clue on Fighter DPS, but that gang u had doesn`t seem like anything close to 3000 DPS, maybe 2000. Second of, Astarte/Eos armortank is pretty crappy compared to other faction tanks. 2x Corpum reps, Centus X Expl and 3x Centum EANMs 987 DPS on EM/Thm 1233 DPS on Expl 1644 DPS on Kin This is a faction tanked Astarte with equipment for 1.7-1.8 bill. Put the same amount of ISK on a Sleipnir/Claymore and it will tank a small fleet 'till it runs out of cap after 500 seconds i think someone said once while under 1 heavy nos. T2 Astarte tank is so stupidly weak it makes me want to go jump off a bridge and with Kali the tanks will favor resist tanks like Caldari/Amarr ones. Absolution will have 85+ resists with 13k+ armor which in old terms a Gankageddon would use 90 seconds just to take down armor without Absolution even repping itself with Dual-Rep. Anyways, people claim that Minmatarr got so awesome ships and are overpowered left and right. Stabber, it`s a nice cheap pirate gank ship to be used in gangs. It`s DPS is okay and it got nice speed which is what it`s really about. Take the same Stabber vs a Caraca and watch him run for the hills. Same with the Vagabond, speed is only thing that keeps it alive and if a BS is flown by someone with some experience and little pvp knowledge fighting off a Vagabond is piece of cake. But the loss starts already when people don`t pay attention to local, corp, alliance, region channel, intel channel or TS. I`ve said it before and i`ve said it again. Spend 1.1 bill (my Vaga cost) on another HAC wisely and it will excel in whatever task u pimp it up for. Vagabond can roam around without getting caughtm but against Ravens (unless noobs) u are facing risk like Nos, Javelin Torps or just an Invuln tank Flying a Vagabond is not about Orbit Default (13km), F1-F6 and go make a cup of tea. It actually takes pilot skills to fly the **** thing. Not to mention u need a corpmate tagging 3 systems behind with the Ammo Dump... This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
MysticNZ Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2006.11.18 06:02:00 - [91] Originally by: Angus McLean Originally by: Metis AT I keep hearing people calling us whiners.... Rant Continues... I dont mean to be rude but listen you have to be a tad older than 2 months to make these kind of solutions. First off your post offered no solutions at all. Secondly the Vagabond is more of a pwn mobile than you know. It can choose its fights and run like a girl if its losing. Thirdly stop complaining until you learn to play well and then attempt to fly amarr. We live off bread and water so to speak. And we arent even being looked at right now. I've flown amarr for over a year and flow minmatar for 2 years. Op is correct, you Amarr need to stop whining and learn how to use your ships. Setup right they rock. You can say that about minmatar as well, but most ships are only ok at what they do. Nothing special. Oh, and give me a break about the vagabond. Unless you're going to spending 500m on it + fraction gear it is not the pawn mobile everyone makes out. -=====- Xorus is teh nub :D I heard that beats player with big stick now be a good carebear and mine me some veldspar - Xorus
Aloysius Knight Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.18 06:36:00 - [92] Originally by: Rod Blaine phoon = fine. The Phoon has not been used at all for about two years. Sad, but no longer true. It's becoming quite popular for roaming gang work where BS are involved and for soloing. Just ask Omniscient Order how they feel about the Phoon. tempest = fine. It is, still used as much as the other gunboats and always will. So yeah, it's autcannons don't do it like Ryan Routine used to these days, and balsters got a bit better (temporarily). Big ***** deal. It's still a fine tier 2 battleship and people still fly it as much as ever. sorry rod but both of them are gimped compared to other bs as far as close range is concerned the phoon when not used as a nanophoon sucks ass unless u have mas sp in 3 tech trees, and even then most other bs will *u still, it still needs more grid and the amour + shield hp swaped around the tempest gets butt**** everytime aganst a t2 mega when t2 comes into play and is near imossible to dictate range with them and what with the ecm nerf the tempest will be even more gimped with close range fights http://www.stevie.prince.dsl.pipex.com/AloysiusKnight.jpg http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2107/nodecrashsiggb9.jpg Chose one, you must. Two is the way of pure ebilness, and pure ebilness is bad -ReverendM
MysticNZ Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:54:00 - [93] Originally by: Aloysius Knight Originally by: Rod Blaine phoon = fine. The Phoon has not been used at all for about two years. Sad, but no longer true. It's becoming quite popular for roaming gang work where BS are involved and for soloing. Just ask Omniscient Order how they feel about the Phoon. tempest = fine. It is, still used as much as the other gunboats and always will. So yeah, it's autcannons don't do it like Ryan Routine used to these days, and balsters got a bit better (temporarily). Big ***** deal. It's still a fine tier 2 battleship and people still fly it as much as ever. sorry rod but both of them are gimped compared to other bs as far as close range is concerned the phoon when not used as a nanophoon sucks ass unless u have mas sp in 3 tech trees, and even then most other bs will *u still, it still needs more grid and the amour + shield hp swaped around the tempest gets butt**** everytime aganst a t2 mega when t2 comes into play and is near imossible to dictate range with them and what with the ecm nerf the tempest will be even more gimped with close range fights QFT Tempest sucks without support now and the phoon is a joke outside being a nanophoon. -=====- Xorus is teh nub :D I heard that beats player with big stick now be a good carebear and mine me some veldspar - Xorus
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 12:05:00 - [94] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/11/2006 12:05:17 I think the problem is that minmatar players are very creative, so they find ways to work around the bad ship limitations. Then comes the nerfbat when enough people start doing the same. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Aberash eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.18 12:56:00 - [95] I cant believe this was a minmatar whine thread? Tempest+Vaga two of the best ships in the game.. If you think Minmatar aren't good enough, try flying amarr. I mean look on the forum on the "Amarr" topics, its quite insane how many pages they have
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:17:00 - [96] i was amarr, which sucked, so i started trainig minmatar and i have to say minmatar is prolly the best pvp race in game atm :/ apart from gallente ecm/drone boats prolly
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.11.18 15:22:00 - [97] And please stop saying you need billions to fit a vaga so it can pwn... If you fit it with t2 gear (don't need that gist booster or the domination gyro's/nano's) It'll still pwn like crazy, for instance, while the zealot is supposed to be the ''outgank everyone and pwn with moderate tank'' the vaga does more dmg then the zealot when the vaga uses long range ammo and the zealot uses short range
Pesadel0 Vagabundos THE H0RDE	Posted - 2006.11.18 17:33:00 - [98] Originally by: Deathbarrage And please stop saying you need billions to fit a vaga so it can pwn... If you fit it with t2 gear (don't need that gist booster or the domination gyro's/nano's) It'll still pwn like crazy, for instance, while the zealot is supposed to be the ''outgank everyone and pwn with moderate tank'' the vaga does more dmg then the zealot when the vaga uses long range ammo and the zealot uses short range What are you smoking?I want a piece .
FraXy Caldari Devils Rejects	Posted - 2006.11.18 19:29:00 - [99] Originally by: Deathbarrage And please stop saying you need billions to fit a vaga so it can pwn... If you fit it with t2 gear (don't need that gist booster or the domination gyro's/nano's) It'll still pwn like crazy, for instance, while the zealot is supposed to be the ''outgank everyone and pwn with moderate tank'' the vaga does more dmg then the zealot when the vaga uses long range ammo and the zealot uses short range Personally only thing faction is Shadow Serp Mwd and True Sansa Warp Disruptor, but ship cost 270 mill and LG snakes and misc hardwiring was around 500-550 mill and rest of ship is t2 items or Corpum A-Type Medium Nos if i want to ditch Arbalest Heavy Missile Launcher. Lows are all named/T2. It`s not a cheap ship to fit if u want to optimalise it. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Urmyrtam	Posted - 2006.11.18 21:09:00 - [100] QFT for all these pages: People aren't using their ships right. I flew a BREACHER (minnie missile frig) today, it's a tiny VAGA with missiles!
Litus Arowar Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:56:00 - [101] ok this nonsense has to stop. I read through as much of this thread as I could before my eyes and ears started to bleed... even hardcore minmatar pilots have to realize that one thing is sorely missing from this thread... how many amarr ships were listed as a "better" or "equal" alternative? 4 times (crusader, punisher, zealot, arbitrator) how many times were they actually listed as better? 0 times... if something was mentioned on page 4 that I missed, I appologize, but I can't stand reading anymore about the "just average" complaints, when there's an entire race with ships that are just average at best! I'd kill for a just average AF, inty, dictor, etc... the small ships for amarr aren't necessarily **ty (don't wanna start that discussion) and since I only fly t2 frigs the imballance doesn't affect me as much, but there's a reason I've trained gallente frig 5 and am working on minmatar frig 5 as we speak... oh and the one couple of posts that mention the crusader and punisher as potentially BETTER than their minmatar counterparts fail to realize that fail to realize that the punisher has 2 meds, and is thus less versatile, and that the crusader's only real advantage is a longer locking range, allowing it to scram from over 20km with good gang skills... its hitpoint boost is negligible (especially after kali) and it's far more difficult to plate up than a claw (due to its guns taking far more grid) anyway, I don't want this to be an amarr vs minmatar thread, and I'm also not trying to flame what appears to be a constructive discussion, but the discussion is misguided, and given the current state of affairs it is utterly pointless cytomatrix> Try sitting inside a big frickin ball filled up with glue and tubes stuck up your nose and your arse. Then compare RL and Eve.**

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