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Are Webbers too powerful?

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Makaera Koshito Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:10:00 - [1] Edited by: Makaera Ko**o on 18/11/2006 11:14:34 Not a whine, just a conversation starter. I use webbers a whole lot myself, so any change to them would affect my PvP style. Stasis Webifier: Reduces the maximum speed of a ship by employing micro energy streams which effectively entangle the target temporarily, thereby slowing it down. IMO, a frigate (Inty, T1, AF) should not be able web a cruiser, BC, BS at the same capacitor cost as it takes for a those ships to web a frigate. When you consider the mass and speed- and therefore the inertia- of those bigger ships, doesn't it make sense that a little tiny frigate would require more energy to web them? Should there be different levels of the Stasis Webifier module, like there are for, say, MWDs/ABs? For instance, should there be a "frigate" size, which webs other frigates @ 75% (or whatever), but webs the larger ships at a smaller percentage of speed? If various-sized modules should exist, should those modules be usable on all ships, but just require different amounts of energy to activate depending on the size of the ship being webbed? Or should we stick to one module for all ships and just require varying amounts of energy usage to web different size ships? (We have heavy webber drones that can only web 30%. This makes sense to me, that a smaller ship is either simply too small or doesn't have enough energy to completely web a larger ship than it is.) Is 75% simply too much of a speed reduction for one module? Is 10km (6.2 miles) simply too far of range for effectivness? Basically, that means one webber on you and you're done. With enough firepower on you, there is no way you'll get out of range in time to escape the webbing ship. Plus, once you are webbed, you can't get out of range anyway due to the speed reduction. No other module is this powerful by itself, with such a small energy cost. Any thoughts?
OrangeAfroMan Minmatar Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:12:00 - [2] Put simply, Yes. More than anything they kill the usefulness of a lot of Minmatar ships, completely neutralizing speed advantage, and also crippling smaller ships verses larger.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:20:00 - [3] yes. you can see that by the fact theres no t2 versions. t1 should be base 50% with named > 70%. Faction 70% - 90%. t2 90% with harder fittings. im surprised they havent been changed tbh.
Venkhar Krard	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:21:00 - [4] T2 Frigs should have some kind of resistance bonus against webifiers if you as me. They die to fast to much cheaper ships if webbed. (well at least the AFs, ceptors are pretty fine now)
Talasan The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:24:00 - [5] oh ffs, give it a rest, stop whining about stuff that is fine as it is, there is a counter to webs, its called a mwd dont get tux started he'll ruin the game as long as crap threads like this keep appearing "minmatar got the shaft again? sure ill bend over right away"
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:29:00 - [6] Originally by: Talasan oh ffs, give it a rest, stop whining about stuff that is fine as it is, there is a counter to webs, its called a mwd dont get tux started he'll ruin the game as long as crap threads like this keep appearing your thread is not in any sense constructive and frankly should be deleted. for what reason are they fine? whos whining? mwd is not a counter as it increases signal radius making you dead. you sir, are a fool.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:32:00 - [7] Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Put simply, Yes. More than anything they kill the usefulness of a lot of Minmatar ships, completely neutralizing speed advantage, and also crippling smaller ships verses larger. I have a different perspective on it. To me, webs allow my minmatar ships to stay out of void range when fighting gallente. Its very much needed to not get completely destroyed by them up close. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Talasan The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:34:00 - [8] its infuriating reading these boards, when people post about things that arent broken and suggest something different for them, they have been this way for a long time and i really dont believe they need a change or a nerf why does everyone on this forum want to nerf something every day "minmatar got the shaft again? sure ill bend over right away"
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Talasan oh ffs, give it a rest, stop whining about stuff that is fine as it is, there is a counter to webs, its called a mwd 1. a single MWD does not remove the affects of a single web, the single web is stronger than a MWD. 2. You can only use a single MWD. You can be under the affect of multiple webs. 3. MWD themselves, have their own drawbacks, heavy cap use, Sig radius increase. TBH, and AB should be the counter to a web, but still does not solve issues 1 and 2
Talasan The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:40:00 - [10] Edited by: Talasan on 18/11/2006 11:40:42 they only go to 10km, use speed of the mwd and skillfull piloting to stay away from it....geez if they are faster, more skillfull or just get a lucky break (i.e landing on top of you) then unlucky thats all part of the game "minmatar got the shaft again? sure ill bend over right away"
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:44:00 - [11] Problem with webbers and scramblers are anyway: Instead of trying to destroy a ship that is approaching a gate all you have to do is web it and its dead. A Frig is sufficient for reducing a carrier's thrust to 10% or even 1%. Ships even HAVE propulsion strength but the game mechanics don't care about it when webbing is concearned. => Beta stage game And instead of trying to destroy a ship while its warp drive charges up (which doesn't exist in eve), you simply scramble it and its dead. A frig is sufficient for scrambling a carrier, everything has 1 warp strength. => Beta stage game -- This game is still in beta stage
Trung Nhi	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:56:00 - [12] I agree that it's weird that a t1 frig can web a BS for full effect. Theoretically, the energy needed to slow a BS at full speed down, would simply too much for a frig. Something i've wanted to see for a long time are different sized webifiers, small webs for frigs, medium for cruisers, etc. I also think that the webifying should be dependent on your signature res. Without a low enough scan resolution you should not be able to focus the web on the target well enough if it's small. I.E. Battleships should not be able to fully web a frig since they can't narrow the web down enough. This also encourages more interesting gang structures. To sum my opinion up: Webs should be of different sizes, think of it is a reversed mwd with a penalty to thrust. Webs should also depend on signature resolution. Rough idea, but anyway :)
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:58:00 - [13] The truth about this thread --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
OrangeAfroMan Minmatar Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.11.18 12:00:00 - [14] Originally by: Talasan Edited by: Talasan on 18/11/2006 11:40:42 they only go to 10km, use speed of the mwd and skillfull piloting to stay away from it....geez if they are faster, more skillfull or just get a lucky break (i.e landing on top of you) then unlucky thats all part of the game Because small and medium guns do such great damage outside 10km.
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 12:02:00 - [15] What is the problem with the webber? If your Battleship is web by a frigate why not just kill the frigate? Or was it a Interceptor (the ship that has as it's role to web and scramble ships). And if matari get their speed advantage removed by a webber shouldn't we do something about Dampeners and ECM and Disruptors. Since last time I checked a frigate can make a Dreadnought almost helpless with Disruptors or ECM to. Frigates only role in gang combat is to web and scramble. so why in the name of gehenna should CCP make the frigate obsolete. It would be good with a module that remove the penalty of 1 webber per module tho but that wasn't the ops intention with this thread. BTW. Talasan is right that you should learn how to get out of Webrange.
Talasan The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.18 12:10:00 - [16] Edited by: Talasan on 18/11/2006 12:13:37 no offence people but work it out how to hit over 10km, no-one says you gotta use close range guns all the time. if you dont want to then use the ranged ammo for your short range guns, null, barrage, not sure the name of the laser one, scorch? they can do sufficient damage over 10km, maybe with exception of blasters, but then when would a blaster boat wana stay over 10km anyway if you dont wana do that, then fight in web range and change your setup instead of asking for the game to change around you, to make your pvping easier im finished with this thread, its incrediibly tedious edit: haha jim "minmatar got the shaft again? sure ill bend over right away"
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2006.11.18 12:43:00 - [17] Personally I think webs are ok as they now stand, Why? If webbers were size based they would have virtually no impact on the way the game currently stands. Mainly because a frig webbing another frig would gain a speed advantage on the other frig so no change same as now. Now say a frig webbed a cruiser or larger ship it would still be faster than the bigger craft and be able to "lock it down" so again no change. Now take a big ship webbing a frig it still slows the frig down so no change again, however unless you have a close range setup which can take out close orbiting small ships you still will not hit it with large guns so whats the point? Tbh i think there are more important things that need looking at instead of this and you have to balance the ability of small ships to be able to tackle effectively, or whats the point of having them in game. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
OrangeAfroMan Minmatar Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.11.18 12:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Talasan Edited by: Talasan on 18/11/2006 12:13:37 no offence people but work it out how to hit over 10km, no-one says you gotta use close range guns all the time. if you dont want to then use the ranged ammo for your short range guns, null, barrage, not sure the name of the laser one, scorch? they can do sufficient damage over 10km, maybe with exception of blasters, but then when would a blaster boat wana stay over 10km anyway if you dont wana do that, then fight in web range and change your setup instead of asking for the game to change around you, to make your pvping easier im finished with this thread, its incrediibly tedious edit: haha jim If you think any small autocannon will be hitting outside 10km even with barrage then you're dumb. Artillery, yes you can use that however your DPS will be extremely negligible. Even with the "range" ammos you will not be hitting well (except maybe with Amarr) outside 10km, and they'll just kill you anyway. Do you even PvP? Try again.........
Talasan The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:01:00 - [19] Edited by: Talasan on 18/11/2006 13:03:43 Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Originally by: Talasan Edited by: Talasan on 18/11/2006 12:13:37 no offence people but work it out how to hit over 10km, no-one says you gotta use close range guns all the time. if you dont want to then use the ranged ammo for your short range guns, null, barrage, not sure the name of the laser one, scorch? they can do sufficient damage over 10km, maybe with exception of blasters, but then when would a blaster boat wana stay over 10km anyway if you dont wana do that, then fight in web range and change your setup instead of asking for the game to change around you, to make your pvping easier im finished with this thread, its incrediibly tedious edit: haha jim If you think any small autocannon will be hitting outside 10km even with barrage then you're dumb. Artillery, yes you can use that however your DPS will be extremely negligible. Even with the "range" ammos you will not be hitting well (except maybe with Amarr) outside 10km, and they'll just kill you anyway. Do you even PvP? Try again......... Saying that is incredibly irritating, ofc i pvp i should have noted, i was talking about medium guns, even still the same thing stands, frigs with long range guns can hit over 10km and you wont need ot worry about getting webbed if you can keep it up being faster. dps of a claw with artys over AC's is about 70% of the damage, still enough to tackle larger targets and kill other frigs close range frigs will want to fight at simular ranges anyway so thats the problem if your webbed? you take more damage, then change your setup to boot if a crusier/BS webs your frig/inty, then its right he should be able to have a chance at killing you, your a frig! fact remains most intys can still get out of web range with a mwd as long as they have the cap. i dont see what your whining about no offence orange but maybe its you who i should be asking if you ever pvp? "minmatar got the shaft again? sure ill bend over right away"
Calisto Cody Minmatar The Black Swan Society	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:44:00 - [20] Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Do you even PvP? Try again......... yes he does, and very well. i have flown with him. and i agree with him. if its not broken dont try and fix it. Grimkill > He said . . .. I don't know why you wear a bra; you've got nothing to put in it. <br>She said .. . You wear pants don't you?
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:49:00 - [21] Webbers would be overpowered if they cut your speed by 80 to 90%. They don't. They cut your top speed by 80 to 90%, which is very different. This means you've still got plenty of inertia and a long time to decelerate. No, they aren't overpowered, but there is missing a long range alternative for low-powered webbification (say... 20-30% at 40-50km). But then again, long range propulsion jamming is severely missing in this game in general, and turning tale in general means fleing before combat, while pursuit means blind, dumb, luck that the opponent is stupid. - EVE is sick.
Imperil Northern Intelligence SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:49:00 - [22] Right, decrease them to 50% and up the range to 20km. But really, taking away webifiers you remove one of three "anti-smaller-ship-defense-mechanism" (nos, drones, web). You cripple my effectivness, I want at least double range! Support POS Overhaul - Read it NOW!
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:52:00 - [23] so as soon as the wcs nerf goes in the little children now have the webber as a target. how sad. but simply put, webs can be beaten, they have short range, MWD's do it very well. the only thing i would change for webs is the fact that youd need more webbers to slow down somwthing vastly bigger than uoi. ex: frig can web anything up to a BS before needing another web. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.- -nerf Missles-
6Bagheera9 Shadows of the Dead Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.18 14:06:00 - [24] Totally agree with the OP, we should have 3 different sizes of webbers with the larger one being able to affect bigger ships at longer ranges but with a lower % velocity reduction.
d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 14:27:00 - [25] Edited by: d''hofren on 18/11/2006 14:32:06 Originally by: Makaera Ko**o Edited by: Makaera Ko**o on 18/11/2006 11:14:34 Not a whine, just a conversation starter. .. snip.. Any thoughts? I don't actually see any benefit from making this change. In fact I only see a drawback as new players lose the ability to play the frig tackler role and are so cut out from proper gang pvp. Have I missed the point? Originally by: 6Bagheera9 Totally agree with the OP, we should have 3 different sizes of webbers with the larger one being able to affect bigger ships at longer ranges but with a lower % velocity reduction. I will have medium extended range ones on a huginn or rapier please.... Nope, the whole balance point in webbers is in the limited range. Don't want to be webbed? stay outside of 10km.
Kryptman Felstorm	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:13:00 - [26] Originally by: Trung Nhi I also think that the webifying should be dependent on your signature res. Without a low enough scan resolution you should not be able to focus the web on the target well enough if it's small. I.E. Battleships should not be able to fully web a frig since they can't narrow the web down enough. This is actually a very interesting idea, combined with the different sized webbers idea. I've never liked how a single webber (except for the basic one and a Langour) can reduce a ships speed even if the ship is using a MWD. If the fighting ships are in the same class, then the webbed ship essentially loses the ability to keep range. I think most aggressing ships that use these things are set up to get into range in the first place. So saying "use your MWD and get out of range" is kinda pointless if the other guy was set up to catch you without the web and just uses it to lower transversal or to not rely on his own MWD to stay in range.
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:28:00 - [27] don't look at me, i was just answering the question, are webs too powerful. My opinion is, they are. I'm not gonna go calling for webbing's head, though, as there are effective counters to webbing. As long as NOS is unchanged, it's not worth getting worked up over.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.11.18 17:12:00 - [28] well if you get out weds then yiu'd want all EW scaled then in all respect which would turn to mean in combat biggest ship wins then because if the foe is smaller then they can do sh*t meaninf you remove frigs and cruisers and even battle cruiser(because they are classed as cruiser) from being bacle to do anything in pvp or in alot of pve gangs. that would make it a BS or better field for eve, no thank you
Nemain Amarr Obsidian Asylum	Posted - 2006.11.18 17:50:00 - [29] Webs are fine they do the job they are intended to do, as in slow down ships too fast for turrets to track or bigger ships to catch up. Ptoblem is most people see them as tractor beams, in which case a smaller ship should not be able to stop a larger one (unless for some reason it had more powerfull engines kind of like a tug boat). Just think of them as an energy version of cloging the fuel lines so decreasing the power output, then the size of the ship doesn't matter at all (a standard engine scrambler may be a better comparisson). As with alot of modules webs are balanced by range, and that is fine. 10-15km for a web is fine as is the 70-90% speed penalty. Personally I think the problem with ship size webs would be mainly that tackler frigs would become pointless. The main stay of tacklers then would be cruisers (the stabber/vagabond would be the ultimate tackler), as they would be able to slow cruisers and frigs, anything bigger moves so slow that even at reduced effect they would be slowed enough. Reduction in web range or efficiency would make the inty and AF the ultimate PWN mobiles again. A few together attacking a battleship is already putting the odds against the bs, but with reduced range and/or effect they would be nigh on invulnerable versus larger ships. No the balance is currently fine, frigs tackle at ranges that most ships can web back and then kill them at thus making webbing as much a threat to smaller ships as it is to larger. Cruisers/BC are big enough to be hit by all weapon sizes so alot of the time even without a web u can hit them up close if they are webbing you. BS and up need webs to be able to hit anything small and fast moving, not to mention keeping other BS in range of short range weapons, and so on. Webs are fine, change their name or description to engine disruptors if need be and we can all sleep peacfully, with no confusion.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.11.18 18:56:00 - [30] Webs don't hurt me because Webs don't touch me. but that doesn't mean I think they are 'balanced'. There is no counter to a web and there is no real penalty to the ship using them. Just turn it on when in range and viola, slow goodness. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "Victory is the weakness of the enemy." "It is better to die by my Autocannon, than to live for your Veldspar."

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