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Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
15
   |
Posted - 2011.04.07 14:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Originaly from here; http://www.eveonline.com...ic&threadID=1204416
Black ops need some new love. The previous boost has not been really a succes acourding to the Qen Q3 & Q4 they are currently the most unpopulair ship in eve. Maybe they need a new role in general (like the stealth bombers) or just some more tweaking, examle, the jump range need some love. With jdc 5 u can jump 4.5 ly max. I think covert cyno's will be more populair if the max range get a boost.
Black Ops are not solo pwn ship's, they need to be flown in groups to be effective. Currently the most populair Black Ops are the Widow (ecm) and the Redeemer (damage). The Panther and the Sin are not so succesfull as the other 2 mentioned. My proposal is ether to revieuw the Sin and the panther, revieuw the Black Ops bonusses or revieuw them in general.
My personal sugestions;
Changes needed:
Sin:
-Sin needs 2000 base power more, a lol 8800 (ccp did u forgot a 1 in front of the 8800? redeemer has 17000 base power) base power on a semi hybrid boat is fail
-Remove all turret slots and replace 5 % hybrid damage bonus for a 25m3 drone bandwidth usage bonus per gallente bs level and increase max drone usage from 5 to 10 (max dps 950 with ogre's).
-Change agility bonus to a 7,5% bonus in max velocity of drone flight time
-Give sin the special bonus of scooping drones from 7,500 meters and deploying drones at 5,000 meter.
Redeemer:
-Need a 30% boost in large pulse damage and a reduction from 125m3 drone to 25m3 drone bandwidth)
Widow:
-Needs a 200 cpu boost
-Needs 25% boost in torpedo dps
-Needs a slight boost in cap recharge 10-20%
Panther:
-Needs 1 extra mid slot
-Needs a 40% boost in projectile dps and a reduction from 125m3 to 25m5 drone bandwidth
-Velocity bonus need to be changed in a 10% fall off bonus per Black Op level
Changes in general:
-Range increase from max 4,5ly to 6,5ly
-Range formula should get an exception that the Black Op can always jump 1 system jump. Some systems with + 4,5ly (10ly-20ly, A to B with +4,5ly range need to be done manually in the current state)
-Standard fuel bay increase from 1000m3 to 3000m3
-A bonus should be given to the fuel bay amount when a Black Op Jump Portal is fitted, it will add a additional X amount of m3 of fuel bay per black op level, example adds 3000m3 to fuel bay per Black Op level.
-The Black Op Jump Portal should give a 10% reduction in fuel usage of that module per Black Op level. Currently a recon that bridges (4,5 l) uses 1500-1600 fuel while only 6666 fits in the fuel bay
-All bo should use same type of fuel.
-Cruiser scan resolution
-desighn 2 different types of black op's, 1 damage one logi like most T2 ships have 2 variants
Pls Discuss in here |
Jaik7
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
825
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 15:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
the widow is a very nice SURPRISE! ecm boat, but that role can be filled more cheaply with the falcon.
my thought of what the panther was supposed to do was an arty cloaky sniperguy.basicly yell SURPRISE! and then arties go off.
i have no thoughts or ideas on the other black ops ships.
regardless, my understanding of the black ops class as a whole is that they are not supposed to be seen in combat. their job is to cyno is a lot of covert ships, maybe move blockade runners. the class is logistics, not combat.
i have no personal experience with the black ops either as a user of them or a target of them, so i don't feel that i can support or flame this thread. still, i think that the ship class was never intended as a front line attacker, and the fact that the thing is poorly tanked and super expensive might be a tip off that this is not a pvp maruader. |
Jaik7
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
825
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 15:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
the widow is a very nice SURPRISE! ecm boat, but that role can be filled more cheaply with the falcon.
my thought of what the panther was supposed to do was an arty cloaky sniperguy.basicly yell SURPRISE! and then arties go off.
i have no thoughts or ideas on the other black ops ships.
regardless, my understanding of the black ops class as a whole is that they are not supposed to be seen in combat. their job is to cyno is a lot of covert ships, maybe move blockade runners. the class is logistics, not combat.
i have no personal experience with the black ops either as a user of them or a target of them, so i don't feel that i can support or flame this thread. still, i think that the ship class was never intended as a front line attacker, and the fact that the thing is poorly tanked and super expensive might be a tip off that this is not a pvp maruader. |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
15
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 15:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
this is kinda a pvp fit the sin: http://img857.imageshack.us/f/sinhorrible.jpg/
I have perfect fitting skills. U can not fit it with armour reps since they take 2300 power on a ship with only 8800 base power. Fitting med armour reps is out of the question. To get even close to same dps as phanter or the amarr one u need to use blasters. (rails are broken). So kinda bad ship to fit in anyway exept as hauler |
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 15:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
In my opinion a really simpler fix is available.
As far as I understand, black ops are support ships. They can do damage, they can do EW, true, but they can bridge bombers and recons that do damage and EW much more effectively.
In my opinion, if more pilots were able to fit covert cynos black ops would really benefit from it. Possibly every recon/bomber/t3 gang could use a black op BS to bridge and a blockade runner to refuel the BS.
So, my idea is: reduce the requirements for the covert cynosural field generator to cynosural field theory IV.
It could look as if it's too easy, but I think that 20-25days is too much.
|
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
43
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 15:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Just FYI, identifying the problems is more important than the solutions one can find to solve those issues. Either way I approve of this (obviously). |
Eve Orwell
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 16:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
the fact that this topic was posted so quickly after the new forums were up should say something to CCP.
I understand that blops are supposed to be support, but their ability to handle their task is minimal. CCP needs to at least address the horrible fuel consumption/capacity of this ship |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
RONA Directorate
68
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 16:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Supported and added to hot topic list! |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
1
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 17:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
I also approve, since my Redeemer is sitting in my hanger gathering dust... |
Krutoj
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
31
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 17:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
I approve only the range should be of a jump bridge 5.0 light years, but no more.
Having used black ops for various things, I dont find them underdogs, I only find their range a bit underpowered, though one must realize it doesn't facilitate a large jump drive as capitals do, it should still have a bit more range to match a jump bridge module atleast. |
Nihi Lismus
ScrapYard Wolves
Laika.
1
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 19:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
I think, there is a realy easy soulution, to boost the BOs. Remove the bonus for speed while cloaked and add a bonus for cloaking devices, that BOs can fit the Covert Ops Cloaking Device.
And when you cloaked. you should not be shown in local. Because your operation is not that stealthy if everyone can see you there |
Ari Kelor
Black Omega Mining Syndicate
Black Core Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 19:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
Love the Blacks Ops concept and I will forever be optimistic that CCP will eventually show it some love. I don't want them to be solopwnmobiles I just want them to be a little bit more viable as class of ship.
Changes that are needed IMHO
-Covert Ops cloak for sure
-Replace Speed bonus with Fuel Consumption Bonus
-Bring either HP up to T1 counterparts, or increase resists
-The Covert Cyno prerequisite is iffy IMO and I'm cautiously saying yes
-Remap PG and CPU as well as bonuses for Sin and Panther
I hope that at least one of these will be done soon.
Good hunting |
Eve Orwell
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 19:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ari Kelor wrote:Love the Blacks Ops concept and I will forever be optimistic that CCP will eventually show it some love. I don't want them to be solopwnmobiles I just want them to be a little bit more viable as class of ship.
Changes that are needed IMHO
-Covert Ops cloak for sure
-Replace Speed bonus with Fuel Consumption Bonus
-Bring either HP up to T1 counterparts, or increase resists
-The Covert Cyno prerequisite is iffy IMO and I'm cautiously saying yes
-Remap PG and CPU as well as bonuses for Sin and Panther
I hope that at least one of these will be done soon.
Good hunting
i personally dont see the need for a cov ops cloak on a blackops, its simply, you cyno ontop of your target, kill it, then warp off, cov ops cloak isnt gonna be helpful/useful at all there. Even less so if you're bridging. Having blops V with the speed boost basically lets you align out really fast. I did some calculations, but using a DG cloak, aligning out was hella quick because you could use the cloak to get up to warpspeed really easily (something rediculous like 4s)
You had to be really good with your timing though. Honestly, if CCP just let us mash the warp button while cloaked and it just warped us when we hit 75% of uncloaked speed (basically take out the work of that maneuver), vOv blops might get some more use. Of course, thats only really useful if you have blops V, 40 day skill ftw
Jumprange to 5ly would be awesome imo.
Giving the Blops the ability to carry more fuel would be nice too. At the moment, the redeemer is loved for bridging simply cause it has so many lows it can pack in so much fuel when set up for bridging (something like 6k cargo including the fuelbay). Its somewhat unfair to the widow pilots who get stuck with 4 lows and only 2.7k cargo. |
Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
11
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 20:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Widow pilot here.
The ship design seems to contradict itself to me sometimes. Indecisive choices between a Scorpion and a Raven, as it were. The Widow is quite powerful in very small engagements, but its ECM tank doesn't allow it to scale into higher up battles at all I think. This leaves its effective domain essentially in small gang warfare, unless one ignores the ECM properties and fit a shield tank. Maybe that's its design point, but it seems odd in comparison to the other 3 black ops.
Edit: In theory it's the ideal Black Ops, because ranged crowd control ECM combines with its very long firing cruise missiles to be a ranged terror. On the flip side, if it cynos into battle it nullifies its ranged bonuses for close quarters combat. You would fit torpedoes for that, then, but that effectively removes its sniper damage potential. Perhaps that's its intended role, since the ECM lacks a range bonus? |
Aegis Stormborn
UNKN0WN ENTITY
4
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 20:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
As a Black Ops pilot (I actually even use mine  ) I can say they definitely need a boost. The 5 things that I think are the biggest problems:
1. Resists. They need to be buffed. Fitting a tank on my Redeemer is nearly impossible.
2. CPU - moar of it. Not sure if this is an issue with other Blops but I have to fit rigs to take the turret CPU need down, and its still a joke.
3. Fuel bay. Really needs to be bigger to be used effectively.
4. Jump range needs a slight buff.
5. Should be able to jump to a cyno mid way through your bridge. Meaning, you should not have to wait for your bridge to finish cycling to jump with your gang, once they jump you should be able to hop on over as well.
I am going to have to disagree with most people and say they should NOT get a cov ops cloak. It would be pretty win, but a little too win. Imagine cloaky sniper BS gangs. No thanks. A happy 'meet in the middle' might be to buff the cloaked speed bonus a little more. Make them go 2-3x as fast cloaked with max skills. |
Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad.
0
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 21:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:Just FYI, identifying the problems is more important than the solutions one can find to solve those issues. Either way I approve of this (obviously).
As a long time pilot of them these are the biggest issues as I see them.
- The low scan resolutions compounded by penalties from cloaking devices lead to too many fittings compromises because of the necessary sensor boosters to compensate.
- Low resists, lack of Power Grid ( in lesser cases CPU) also lead to too many fittings compromises to be able to put on even a token tank.
- Fuel consumption for the Covert Jump Portal Generator is absurdly high.
- Jump/Bridge range is too short.
I realize that certain compromises had to be made for game balance during their creation however, I feel that the Devs went too conservative on the points I listed.
|
Karash Amerius
Sutoka
20
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 22:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
I wonder why CCP thought fitting a covert ops cloak to the Black Ops class would be overpowered. I would love to hear that reason. <thread derailment> Range could be improved, but we are comparing ranges to capitals, which is a separate issue. Why not reduce range of capitals instead? Hot dropping and moving large cap fleets across the map is getting fairly blase. </thread derailment> |
HoshinoRuri
Playboy Enterprises
Dark Taboo
0
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 23:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
I flew one of these, the widow, for a few months then traded it for a carrier. Problems i had with the ship was not enough cpu. Had worse stats than it's t1 equivalent, less ehp, less damage, and less ewar.
Things that could help fix this ship:
Increase CPU and Powergrid
Give a reduction in fuel for the jump portals
Increase jump range to 5 LY
With the jump portal modual equiped give a bigger fuel bay, When i was bridging cov ops and recons with this ship I needed 2 blockaide runners with fuel to bridge the small gang i ran with.
Give more armor, shield, ship sensor strength.
Cov Ops cloak would be nice since the ships it bridges can use them but not necessary, although if not given ship should get more speed and reduced penalties for using prototype cloaking devices.
Cost needs to come down, that is probably the biggest reason these ships aren't used that much. Unlike a marauder who gets combat bonus these ships on average cost 200m isk more and are on par with the cost for a carrier and you get so much less for the cost. Maybe balance the material costs a bit more to bring them more inline with the cost of marauders. |
Dograzor
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
5
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 23:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Black Ops need some love. I dont mind having a billion isk ship, as long as it had more uses then a glorified SB/Recon bridge. So please... give it some attention :) |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.04.07 23:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Blackops BS could use some improvements.
Slightly longer range, way better fuel efficiency (esp for bridging), bigger fuel bays and a more bomber-like cloaking setup (keep the zero sensor recal delay, remove the scan res penalty from cloaks, possibly add covert ops cloak compatibility) would own.
Also yeah, the Sin is p god-awful and a falloff bonus for the Panther would be nice... though I don't know that I'd trade it for the current speed bonus. |
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