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Rivek
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.11.19 18:53:00 -
[1]
All this whining and name calling... really sad people. There ARE some balancing issues that need to be addressed, and from what I have seen, Tux is open to discussion. Lately though, we have seen Frantic whining and mudslinging on the part of much of the player base.
Why not make arguments for your concerns based on documentable facts, thorough number crunching, and valid comparisions instead of on abusive language, anecdotal evidence, and sheer number of posts?
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Remove Local Chat as the "I Never Lose Button" |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 18:56:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/11/2006 18:57:16
Originally by: Rivek
Why not make arguments for your concerns based on documentable facts, thorough number crunching, and valid comparisions instead of on abusive language, anecdotal evidence, and sheer number of posts?
Sounds like work to me...
Its much easier to just whine. And you dont have to be smart either. Everybody can do it!
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.19 19:10:00 -
[3]
some of the reponses he gives like "i can remove a missile slot from the ferox so its not better than drake if you like? (or whatever the new caldari bs is)" when people are complaining that the new caldari BC is worse than the ferox encourage it
he takes quite alot of stick but i expect his wages reflect that, maybe if he comunicated a little more about the reasoning behind some of the changes which seem rather drastic people wouldnt complain so much.
we all know its not our game its ccp's they will do things that upset alot of people because its how they want it which is fine but you shouldnt expect people to be happy about it.
we live in a world of free speech and people are used to voicing there opinions even if they upset or offend others.
would you prefer it if everyone acted like they loved every change tux makes? hes not always right nobody is maybe it takes a few whine threads for him to take another look and notice there is a problem some of the time ------------------------- I am a nobody of IMP my views are my own. |
Atar
Perpetua Umbra Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.11.19 19:11:00 -
[4]
We have, the simple fix is not to nerf the DPS but to fix the other problems.
For example -
Oversized plates on the Hurricane are what needed to be nerfed, with the loss of a gun slot all that will happen is now 6 ACs and 2 NOS = Even harder to break tank. Nerf the 1600 plates, they shouldn't be on anything but a BS, otherwise you get BCs that can dance with BSs.
The Drake, again I don't feel it was so much over powered as it was overtanked. Need to penalize extenders more.
The choice needs to be Gank OR tank, not both at the same time, while these ships had nice DPS (Hurricane never had too much IMHO) they could also tank to well, if you want to spit out a lot of damage fine then you need to die quicker to equal the ships that don't have as much DPS but can tank much longer, so they will equal out in the long run.
Enough of the split weapon types, they seemed to get that much right on the new BSs.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.11.19 19:52:00 -
[5]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui would you prefer it if everyone acted like they loved every change tux makes? hes not always right nobody is maybe it takes a few whine threads for him to take another look and notice there is a problem some of the time
Of course not, neither would Tuxford, cause if that would be the case he wouldn't have a job now would he(if there is no balance issues, there is nothing for him to do). The problem is not the whining persT, it's the moment they start insulting him(or other players) on a personal level that the problems begin, if you can't show a minimum of respect to other persons you shouldn't engage in a discussion. You have to realise that on the other side of your screen there are actually other people that are staring at a screen not unlike your own and they have feelings not unlike your own. What is it they said in the bible, "do not do unto others what you don't want done to you"? (this is not directed at you as in D'onryu Shoqui fyi this is a you as in everyone who reads/writes on this forum) Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui some of the reponses he gives like "i can remove a missile slot from the ferox so its not better than drake if you like? (or whatever the new caldari bs is)" when people are complaining that the new caldari BC is worse than the ferox encourage it
Tuxford's point is that saying that the drake is crap because the ferox with missiles is almost as good isn't a factor of the drake at all. It's a matter of the ferox being too good with missiles. And that's not a factor of the ferox (hence why he's not really going to nerf the ferox), it's a matter of the missiles themselves. Missiles are so good that you can put them on a ship that doesn't even have bonuses for them and they work better than good. They work great.
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Goca
Minmatar Steel Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:04:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui would you prefer it if everyone acted like they loved every change tux makes? hes not always right nobody is maybe it takes a few whine threads for him to take another look and notice there is a problem some of the time
Of course not, neither would Tuxford, cause if that would be the case he wouldn't have a job now would he(if there is no balance issues, there is nothing for him to do). The problem is not the whining persT, it's the moment they start insulting him(or other players) on a personal level that the problems begin, if you can't show a minimum of respect to other persons you shouldn't engage in a discussion. You have to realise that on the other side of your screen there are actually other people that are staring at a screen not unlike your own and they have feelings not unlike your own. What is it they said in the bible, "do not do unto others what you don't want done to you"? (this is not directed at you as in D'onryu Shoqui fyi this is a you as in everyone who reads/writes on this forum)
That's total B.S. in the real world and online.. If you see a product say in a catalog, hyped up by it's company. You purchase said product, you get it home, it works pretty **** well, almost too well, you call them tell them this thing works better then advertised!! the next day the company comes to your home, fiddles with the product, makes it a pile of crap that doesn't even work as good as advertised, you are gonna be kind of ****ed off no?
So you call the company tell them this thing is a piece of **** now, it would have been fine to just adjust it so it worked well without ruining it, they hang up the phone on you..
No response, no response, even though they are still hyping the product, more and more customers are starting to complain, ads are taken out in newspapers saying this thing is a pile of crap.
They finally send you a letter stating if you cannot make the thing work as advertised it's your own god**** fault and you are basically an idiot..
well sorry but that would usually spell the end to my dealing with said company.
I is Goca |
Dukath
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:23:00 -
[8]
The worst thing about a lot of the changes (warp to 0, a simple 50% hitpoint increase across the board) have been discussed in many forms for a long time, with numbers and all the reasoning explained why they are simply bad for the game or why they have unwanted implications and in a lot of threads even very good suggestions were made on how to fix the problems if the change was forced through anyway.
What we see now is a complete lack from CCP to take into account all the suggestions made on how to fix the problem and go back to the original quickfix. All the problems indicated before now appear, yet CCP does not seem to even understand that they are problems, or worse they add another quickfix that bring even more problems.
That is the reason why there is so much whining. A lot of the arguments have been made before with all the numbers the OP asks for. Only CCP choses to ignore it all, so the only thing that is left is simple pure whining since that has provable success.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:26:00 -
[9]
There is NO SUCH THING as 'perfect balance'. Everyone wants different things. Everyone has a preference. Everyone has an opinion.
Unfortunately most peoples opinions are not worth wasting precious seconds of life reading.
However, Tux is a well educated and professional guy, and I value his judgement 100% more than all the smacktards on this forum.
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 20:35:00 -
[10]
I don't see how it is unreasonable to disagree with Tux on these matters.
It's not unreasonable to realize the Ferox is sadly not much worse with missiles than the Drake is.
It's not unreasonable to see the Ferox actually has an easier time with fittings when using launchers.. so much easier one could argue using the Ferox over the Drake for missiles, which is just plain messed up considering that's not even the Ferox's role, what so ever.
Nor is it unreasonable to see that the shield resist bonus on the Drake is out of place considering it is the only missile ship the Caldari get that has such a bonus and seeing the offensive power of the Drake slashed by quite a bit because of this bonus is kind of annoying.
And lastly, the kinetic missile damage is not popular, period (as a sole offensive bonus at least). It has nothing to do with me, it's just a **** unpopular bonus in place of rate of fire. It's about as popular as the "thermal drone damage bonus" that "almost" was placed on Gallente ships and was removed within day due to the massive influx of whinage.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:04:00 -
[11]
Captain, I can only assume you are a pointless troll because your posts are 100% drivel.
Kinetic damage is a great damage type to use in PVP. As good as thermal and much better than EM. Also, you can deal ANY damage type. Don't you understand what a huge advantage that is in PvP and PvE?
Your tank and primary weapons requires no cap. You don't have to worry about tracking. Your missiles always hit.
In short, learn how to play the game. If you think the Ferox is better than the Drake (lol) then just use it. Its cheaper. Go right ahead, everyone else will be in the Drake, with an extra launcher and damage bonus, laughing at you.
Pointless little exclamation mark that you are.
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Penix Schwarzzenheimer
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:25:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Penix Schwarzzenheimer on 19/11/2006 21:27:34
Originally by: Butter Dog
However, Tux is a well educated and professional guy, and I value his judgement 100% more than all the smacktards on this forum.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427093&page=1#26
Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting **** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull**** and you know it.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427093&page=2#40
Originally by: Tuxford YOU ARE NOT RESTRICTED TO USE 1 DAMAGE TYPE. Its simple as that you CAN use another. You get bonus to 1 but you CAN use any ******* damage type you want.
Professionalism.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:45:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/11/2006 21:46:04
Originally by: Penix Schwarzzenheimer bla bla bla
Of course he eventually gets angry reading all the moronic posts people post in these forums. Like yours for example. Pushing a guy until he snaps and then thinking he is not professional when he gets angry. You are a real jerk.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rivek Why not make arguments for your concerns based on documentable facts, thorough number crunching, and valid comparisions instead of on abusive language, anecdotal evidence, and sheer number of posts?
That's all I'm asking for too... and I asked it here: LINKY
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Butter Dog Captain, I can only assume you are a pointless troll because your posts are 100% drivel.
Kinetic damage is a great damage type to use in PVP. As good as thermal and much better than EM. Also, you can deal ANY damage type. Don't you understand what a huge advantage that is in PvP and PvE?
Your tank and primary weapons requires no cap. You don't have to worry about tracking. Your missiles always hit.
In short, learn how to play the game. If you think the Ferox is better than the Drake (lol) then just use it. Its cheaper. Go right ahead, everyone else will be in the Drake, with an extra launcher and damage bonus, laughing at you.
Pointless little exclamation mark that you are.
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Penix Schwarzzenheimer
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Posted - 2006.11.19 22:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/11/2006 21:46:04
Of course he eventually gets angry reading all the moronic posts people post in these forums. Like yours for example. Pushing a guy until he snaps and then thinking he is not professional when he gets angry. You are a real jerk.
Maybe justified, but if someone in a Best Buy said that to me, he would be fired. As a professional who deals with customers, you are held to higher standards than the people you are paid to serve.
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Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.19 22:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Crellion on 19/11/2006 22:12:47
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: Butter Dog Captain, I can only assume you are a pointless troll because your posts are 100% drivel.
Kinetic damage is a great damage type to use in PVP. As good as thermal and much better than EM. Also, you can deal ANY damage type. Don't you understand what a huge advantage that is in PvP and PvE?
Your tank and primary weapons requires no cap. You don't have to worry about tracking. Your missiles always hit.
In short, learn how to play the game. If you think the Ferox is better than the Drake (lol) then just use it. Its cheaper. Go right ahead, everyone else will be in the Drake, with an extra launcher and damage bonus, laughing at you.
Pointless little exclamation mark that you are.
Umm I wont take sides here I have expressed my opinion elsewhere and its just too much to repeat. However you are wrong in what you tell him in a few ways. I.e. if kinetic dmg is as good as thermal and in any event you can use any damage type and at the end of the day you dont ude cap... why is he wrong to refer you to gallente drone damage bonus as introduced for 24 hours.
Of course personally I was greatly relieved when that change ended abruptly but I will be equally relieved when the kinetic damage bonus dies also.
As for Tux and people giving him stick... alot of the adverse comments are pure drivel and as such he wont mind he will just laugh them off. If on the other hand some of the adverse comments make sense and as such hurt him... then obviously he needs to fix the problems and be happy that he is given the opprotunity.
I am a Solicitor in RL and when a client makes a rude complaint two thigns happen: (a) if it is baseless or criminal I can call the police on his butt. (b) if there is even the mere suspicion that there might be somehting into it alarm bells go off. I have to offer him the option of an official complaint, inform the Senior complaints Partner, fully explain to the client the proper complaints procedure and offer him the contact details of the complaints people at the Law Society if he doesnt feel like talking to me anymore and pray I still have a job tomorrow...
So we are all professionals after all... whats the point of this thread again? Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.11.19 22:38:00 -
[18]
Tux is getting the same flak every time he acts as he does.
That wont change unless he changes the way he acts and reacts. He hasn't been open for discussion in the past.
His changes look as if he didn't even care to read the better written posts about his new babies, their problems and possible ways to balance or fix them. The last changes short of a big content patch look like the cheap hacks they are. The problems causing them at the core aren't touched.
He's a nice guy to talk to. He knows a lot. He has a lot of ideas. But he doesn't accept that others might have more fantasy, or even more knowledge on a topic he thinks he's the best at - unless they prove that there are flaws in his designs. But 500 people working on the same problem as he himself can come up with better soutions regularly. If he didn't take those proposals as a personal attack, he'd easily be able to take those solutions and gain the balance he's trying to reach as hard as he can.
Take the Hurricane. It has been pretty balanced - minus the 1600mm plates. There have been two sets of changes to make oversized plates undesirable that didn't succeed because the changes have been halfhearted. Most pilots just stopped fitting them when other modules got a boost and became the more logical solution to a problems at hand. Minmatar pilots have been quite happy that the ship would come in without the usual prenerf. Oh well. We should just have shut up instead of showing our happiness.
@Tux: We love EVE as much as you do. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.19 22:45:00 -
[19]
I think tux was against the changes to the BC's and wanted a reduction in tank...
however project kali stands for "fights must last longer at all costs" and unfortunatly some ships had to pay...
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.19 22:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Pattern Clarc I think tux was against the changes to the BC's and wanted a reduction in tank...
however project kali stands for "fights must last longer at all costs" and unfortunatly some ships had to pay...
If thats true then: (a) Tux we are sorry (b) some *&^*(% *&)(^)*%* higher up is not listening to either Tux or us which is just pants Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.19 23:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Penix Schwarzzenheimer
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/11/2006 21:46:04
Of course he eventually gets angry reading all the moronic posts people post in these forums. Like yours for example. Pushing a guy until he snaps and then thinking he is not professional when he gets angry. You are a real jerk.
Maybe justified, but if someone in a Best Buy said that to me, he would be fired. As a professional who deals with customers, you are held to higher standards than the people you are paid to serve.
Tuxford is not like a guy who sells you a toaster at Best Buy, that's a dumb analogy. Neither is he in customer service. Go talk to the designers of the toaster you're buying and tell them they're stupid for not making it the way YOU want. See what they tell you.
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Dupac
Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.20 00:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Rivek All this whining and name calling... really sad people. There ARE some balancing issues that need to be addressed, and from what I have seen, Tux is open to discussion. Lately though, we have seen Frantic whining and mudslinging on the part of much of the player base.
Why not make arguments for your concerns based on documentable facts, thorough number crunching, and valid comparisions instead of on abusive language, anecdotal evidence, and sheer number of posts?
I agree that some of the posts are pure whine that contain no value.
There was, as I'm sure you'll remember, a 100 page long amarr thread. Although it contained its fair share of nonsense, there were valid, well constructed posts outlining the problem and possible solutions. There was number crunching galore and some really good posts amongst the cow pats.
Nevermind getting sarcastic response, it didn't get any response, neither have any of the other posts regarding amarr or specifically the Abaddon and suggested changes to it.
When people are totally ignored, or receive a belittling response, it is hardly surprising that they get frustrated and resort to more chilish tactics. Much as that should not happen, it does.
Perhaps if they received some kind of response to their suggestions or a reason for making blanket changes to the game that they obviously love playing and being involved with, they would behave in a more apporiate manner. |
Denrace
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2006.11.20 01:24:00 -
[23]
People can whine all they want, even if its a bit harsh sometimes.
Reason?
They are PAYING for the game, keeping the Devs in a job.
Heres a solution:
Hire a new developer who actually has time to discuss things on a forum (would instantly make half the player base happier).
(Im not saying this harshly - for example, "Tux cant be bothered posting", but they do have more important things to do - like actually develop the game, hence get someone to liase with players regaring game changes)
Den ________________________________________
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.20 01:37:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 20/11/2006 01:37:08
Originally by: Denrace People can whine all they want, even if its a bit harsh sometimes.
Reason?
They are PAYING for the game, keeping the Devs in a job.
Heres a solution:
Hire a new developer who actually has time to discuss things on a forum (would instantly make half the player base happier).
(Im not saying this harshly - for example, "Tux cant be bothered posting", but they do have more important things to do - like actually develop the game, hence get someone to liase with players regaring game changes)
Den
I whole heartedly agree.
i'm not talking about a forum warrior, more someone just to say "yes, we're working on that" or "no, because we have this view on how we would like to take the game"
We don't have to like the changes, but understanding them would make us get a fairier view of what is happening with the game...
i'd happy vouch for that position... if it where to be offered Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.20 01:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Butter Dog Captain, I can only assume you are a pointless troll because your posts are 100% drivel.
Kinetic damage is a great damage type to use in PVP. As good as thermal and much better than EM. Also, you can deal ANY damage type. Don't you understand what a huge advantage that is in PvP and PvE?
It can be an advantage yes, so can fitting a lot of lasers or blasters and doing a lot of base DPS. Missile DPS is pretty sad, overall.
Funny I don't see any ships in EVE ever fitting utility launchers on top of their turrets for the uber launcher damage type versatility.. of course NOS is more uber but still people do not use utility launchers slots, in general.
Quote: Your tank and primary weapons requires no cap. You don't have to worry about tracking. Your missiles always hit.
Oi.. missiles don't always hit for full damage, their base DPS is lower, it evens out dude.. plus shield tanks are much harder to maintain than armor tanks and the resistances are generally better as well, again it evens out.
Quote: In short, learn how to play the game. If you think the Ferox is better than the Drake (lol) then just use it. Its cheaper. Go right ahead, everyone else will be in the Drake, with an extra launcher and damage bonus, laughing at you.
I wouldn't waste my time on the Ferox or Drake, they're both crap. The Ferox has always been crap and the Drake is close to crap. It would have been nice to have a good disposable t1 ship for Caldari that was offensive oriented but I guess we'll have to stick to Ravens for that since the Drake is gonna hit TQ like a lame duck.
Quote: Pointless little exclamation mark that you are.
For the record you're way more of a troll than I am fool.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.20 01:59:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Denrace People can whine all they want, even if its a bit harsh sometimes.
Reason?
They are PAYING for the game, keeping the Devs in a job. Den
Hey, guess what? CCP is not obligated to provide these forums for us. Guess what else? They're not obligated to even read them. What's that do to your "right to call developers bad names" theory?
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.11.20 02:06:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Captain Raynor
For the record you're way more of a troll than I am fool.
applauds the witty use of retoric and in the above comeback Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.20 02:09:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Denrace People can whine all they want, even if its a bit harsh sometimes.
Reason?
They are PAYING for the game, keeping the Devs in a job. Den
Hey, guess what? CCP is not obligated to provide these forums for us. Guess what else? They're not obligated to even read them. What's that do to your "right to call developers bad names" theory?
Nobody has a right to calll the developers names. if you do, even on these forums you can (would be a bit difficult but doable) be prosecuted.
On other news, however, whilst CCP are not obliged to provide forums or read them or strive to make the game better at all times as they do, players are also not obliged to keep their direct debits in place and keep paying for 2nd and 3rd accoutns etc... Its more of a case of a reciprocal relationship and it does, believe it or not Missy , involve these forums as well and in a major way... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
BustyBounty
Caldari Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.20 02:10:00 -
[29]
Edited by: BustyBounty on 20/11/2006 02:11:27 eve wouldnt be anywhere near as popular without these forums , the community is probably more importaint than the game is.
devs are expected to post on there forums these days and all mmo's have official forums.
if a player swears at even a forum mod guess what happens to there game accounts. maybe tuxs comment were a one off at a really stressful time which i would expect kali to be for him, i dont know if he apoligized or not but if he didnt he should have, its things like that which give companys a bad rep ------------------------------------------ My opinions are my own and not that of the alliance I belong to. |
Risien Drogonne
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Posted - 2006.11.20 02:18:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Crellion
On other news, however, whilst CCP are not obliged to provide forums or read them or strive to make the game better at all times as they do, players are also not obliged to keep their direct debits in place and keep paying for 2nd and 3rd accoutns etc... Its more of a case of a reciprocal relationship and it does, believe it or not Missy , involve these forums as well and in a major way...
So here's the question of the day... Are you going to quit over being told that you possibly suck at flying a drake by a developer?
I bet the answer is "no" across the board, at which time all the crying about how we're paying customers becomes a null point.
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