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infraX
Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:15:00 -
[1]
For the love of god, I've posted once and I'll post again:
Why is a NOS setup more effective than a setup with guns (specifically lasers/hybrids)?
Is this what you want CCP? Everyone fits as much NOS as they can on their bs to out drain their opponent and kill them off with some light drones?
Give me just a little acknowledgement that is is a HUGE problem and no amount of extra cap or cap booster charges is going to fix this. I'm really not looking forward to this NOS fest hitting TQ. The idea has long been: kill the enemy before A) They kill you. and B) You run out of cap. This just isn't possible anymore. Gank is too easy to tank for long enough to survive and there is far too much time to NOS the opponent down. The only way I can think to kill these jokers with the uber NOS/Neut setups is to fit the same kind of setup myself. I refuse to do this as it is just totally stupid.
Please see my other thread with more detailed problem analysis and less whining:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=422895
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:22:00 -
[2]
Nos needs an activation cost, falloff and signature resolution. That way your nos can miss resulting in a loss of cap for yourself and even if you do hit you will only get (nos amount - activation cost) back in return resulting in less help for your own tank.
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Illistar DeathWing
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:26:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Illistar DeathWing on 19/11/2006 21:27:26 That is a problem, however it's the same as any ecm ship. What's the difference between fitting eccm, oposed to cap recharge mods? We all know ecm ships are hugely powerfull and there is little you can do if they just lock you out forever. It's the same thing. Have you tested multiple cap recharge mods?
Also you forget passive shield tanking, although out of the question for most amarr ship every other race has ships they could passive shield tank, Raven and dominix come to mind, as well as any mini ship.
I would like to see something done to nos, but rightout nerfing them also nerfs ships that get bonuses to nos. So how about instead, they nerf it, but increase the bonus nos ships get?
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infraX
Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:29:00 -
[4]
I think a stacking nerf might be a better solution. If you think about it, the hp increase is a stealth buff for NOS. In the exact same fight as before, you could Nos a certain amount of cap for a predetermined fight length. Now that fights are twice as long, you can Nos twice the amount of cap with the same setup in the same fight. The devs have realised this with regard to shield tanking and have nerfed the recharge rate so that the ship recharges about the same amount of hp passively as it would have done before. Not so with the amount of cap you can suck with a nosferatu though is it...
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infraX
Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.19 21:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Illistar DeathWing Edited by: Illistar DeathWing on 19/11/2006 21:27:26 That is a problem, however it's the same as any ecm ship. What's the difference between fitting eccm, oposed to cap recharge mods? We all know ecm ships are hugely powerfull and there is little you can do if they just lock you out forever. It's the same thing. Have you tested multiple cap recharge mods?
Also you forget passive shield tanking, although out of the question for most amarr ship every other race has ships they could passive shield tank, Raven and dominix come to mind, as well as any mini ship.
I would like to see something done to nos, but rightout nerfing them also nerfs ships that get bonuses to nos. So how about instead, they nerf it, but increase the bonus nos ships get?
Recharge mods don't help, they've never been much good except for NPC/mission setups. A cap injector is the way to go but is still about as useful as a chocolate fireguard for solving the problem, especially when your guns use cap aswell. I've nost tested passive shield tanking because I am primarily a Gallente or Amarr pilot so never shield tank.
I did note that nerfing NOS would be an indirect nerf to ships like the curse and bhaalgorn in my other post and I suggested there that perhaps they should get some sort of compensation bonus.
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Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.11.20 06:13:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Quilan Ziller on 20/11/2006 06:13:22
Originally by: infraX For the love of god, I've posted once and I'll post again:
Why is a NOS setup more effective than a setup with guns (specifically lasers/hybrids)?
Is this what you want CCP? Everyone fits as much NOS as they can on their bs to out drain their opponent and kill them off with some light drones?
Give me just a little acknowledgement that is is a HUGE problem and no amount of extra cap or cap booster charges is going to fix this. I'm really not looking forward to this NOS fest hitting TQ. The idea has long been: kill the enemy before A) They kill you. and B) You run out of cap. This just isn't possible anymore. Gank is too easy to tank for long enough to survive and there is far too much time to NOS the opponent down. The only way I can think to kill these jokers with the uber NOS/Neut setups is to fit the same kind of setup myself. I refuse to do this as it is just totally stupid.
Please see my other thread with more detailed problem analysis and less whining:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=422895
This is NOT a huge problem for everyone. This is a huge problem FOR YOU with your CHOSEN PLAYSTYLE - which is rushing towards the enemy ship with guns blazing. Nothing wrong with this - I do so myself with my Thorax. But a battle should not be decided simply by guns. It will take another dimension out of combat. There ARE ways to beat a NOS ship with a turret setup. Like staying out of range. Or using passive tank and projectile turrets. Or fitting your own faster cycling NOS, if you know you are after a nossing ship. You say: "I refuse to do this as it is just totally stupid." And those nossing "jokers" you mention refuse to just die from your guns. How is that for an argument? HPs were increased 50%... So the cap size was also increased 50%! This won't change the NOS situation from what we have on TQ right now. NOS are fine. If NOS are nerfed, small T2 ships (like AFs) will become insanely overpowered against big ships. Did you think of that? Sig resolution of your battleship guns won't allow you to hit the small ship very well. You only have 5 drones. You have no warp stabs (since they are nerfed). And AFs can deal a lot of damage. Really a lot. Right now your best protection is NOS. NOS them, kill them - or escape. If NOS is nerfed... You are in a much worse situation. Just look at all these Ishkur-vs-noob-in-a-Raven videos (where Raven loses). In all of those videos noob Raven pilot has no NOS - and loses to a FRIG. In conclusion, I want to ask a rhethorical question: why is everyone whining "overpowered" about every module they don't use themselves? Some like to whine about missiles (that always hit and are totally overpowered). Others whine about drones (that always hit, and have that overpowered DPS). Yet others whine about NOS (that can prevent them from firing back). And none of these people have ever tried the strategy they blame as being overpowered (cause it takes skills to learn). NOS boats aren't invincible. They are just different. Disclaimer: I don't fly NOS Domis - though I have killed one yesterday with my blaster ship. I prefer the "guns blazing" strategy myself, and I use exclusively hybrids. But NOS are fine. Leave them be. For the love of Amarrian god.
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Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.20 06:20:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller Edited by: Quilan Ziller on 20/11/2006 06:13:22
Originally by: infraX For the love of god, I've posted once and I'll post again:
Why is a NOS setup more effective than a setup with guns (specifically lasers/hybrids)?
Is this what you want CCP? Everyone fits as much NOS as they can on their bs to out drain their opponent and kill them off with some light drones?
Give me just a little acknowledgement that is is a HUGE problem and no amount of extra cap or cap booster charges is going to fix this. I'm really not looking forward to this NOS fest hitting TQ. The idea has long been: kill the enemy before A) They kill you. and B) You run out of cap. This just isn't possible anymore. Gank is too easy to tank for long enough to survive and there is far too much time to NOS the opponent down. The only way I can think to kill these jokers with the uber NOS/Neut setups is to fit the same kind of setup myself. I refuse to do this as it is just totally stupid.
Please see my other thread with more detailed problem analysis and less whining:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=422895
This is NOT a huge problem for everyone. This is a huge problem FOR YOU with your CHOSEN PLAYSTYLE - which is rushing towards the enemy ship with guns blazing. Nothing wrong with this - I do so myself with my Thorax. But a battle should not be decided simply by guns. It will take another dimension out of combat. There ARE ways to beat a NOS ship with a turret setup. Like staying out of range. Or using passive tank and projectile turrets. Or fitting your own faster cycling NOS, if you know you are after a nossing ship.You say: "I refuse to do this as it is just totally stupid." And those nossing "jokers" you mention refuse to just die from your guns. How is that for an argument? HPs were increased 50%... So the cap size was also increased 50%! This won't change the NOS situation from what we have on TQ right now. NOS are fine. If NOS are nerfed, small T2 ships (like AFs) will become insanely overpowered against big ships. Did you think of that? Sig resolution of your battleship guns won't allow you to hit the small ship very well. You only have 5 drones. You have no warp stabs (since they are nerfed). And AFs can deal a lot of damage. Really a lot. Right now your best protection is NOS. NOS them, kill them - or escape. If NOS is nerfed... You are in a much worse situation. Just look at all these Ishkur-vs-noob-in-a-Raven videos (where Raven loses). In all of those videos noob Raven pilot has no NOS - and loses to a FRIG. In conclusion, I want to ask a rhethorical question: why is everyone whining "overpowered" about every module they don't use themselves? Some like to whine about missiles (that always hit and are totally overpowered). Others whine about drones (that always hit, and have that overpowered DPS). Yet others whine about NOS (that can prevent them from firing back). And none of these people have ever tried the strategy they blame as being overpowered (cause it takes skills to learn). NOS boats aren't invincible. They are just different. Disclaimer: I don't fly NOS Domis - though I have killed one yesterday with my blaster ship. I prefer the "guns blazing" strategy myself, and I use exclusively hybrids. But NOS are fine. Leave them be. For the love of Amarrian god.
So if these are the solutions why not take Blasters and pulses out of the game altogether and give the Hyperion and the Geddon mining bonuses... mr. Wizzard of combat analysis? Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
murder one
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.20 06:27:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller stuff{quote]
Nos are not fine. When they can be used as a superior replacement for guns, they are not fine. Nos should be a module you fit after you've fit as many guns as possible and simply have high slots left over and need to fit something else, not a primary weapons system.
It has nothing to do with 'playstyle' and everything to do with 'balance'. Caldari are immune to Nos with passive tanks and missile launchers. They are also immune to ECM (FOFs) turret distruptors (no missile equivilant) and damps (FOFs again). Is this balanced? No. Does it need to be fixed? Yes. We can start by reducing the effectiveness of nos and then address everything else. A 50% reduction in nos strength across the board would be a good start, followed by a stacking nerf. Using nos to completely bypass all your shield/armor tanking skills, tanking mods, and so on to kill your ship with no tracking penalties, no skillpoints required to improve its effectivness etc. is just lame.
It's simply too effective for too few skillpoints against a very select group of ships. Why do you resist it being nerfed so bad if you don't benefit from it so much? If it doesn't matter to you, why worry about it? Infra is right and I agree with him 100%
Because I said so...
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infraX
Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.20 07:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Quilan Ziller
*<snip>*
This IS a problem for 50% of the races in the game.
This IS a problem for combat less that 25km where combat is MEANINGFUL because above 20km the target warps.
Staying "out of range" with a turret setup does not work, refer to previous point.
I don't want to fit my own NOS, NOS is totally lame, why make something that costs a few k sp to use be far more effective than 9 million skillpoints in gunnery?
Only one race can effectively passively tank. Armour tankers are screwed.
Increasing cap by 50% along with 50% hp DOES change thing to the way they are on tq, there is far more time for a NOS setup to work now.
Your AF argument is nothing to do with this problem, read my other post.
...I cba to answer all of your points. You are clearly an idiot that has no clue about pvp.
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