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Taran Blake De Re Metallica	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:15:00 - [1] A couple of suggestions. 1. Change the Ferox. - 6/3 Rail/Missile Spread w/7 hardpoints - Give it enough grid to allow fitting of 6 x 250mm rails Leave current bonuses intact. Result: Rail Tank 2. Change the Drake to - 5% RoF Bonus for Cruiser Missiles - 10% Missile Velocity Bonus Leave it with 6 missile slots. Result: Missile Gank Would something like the above setups be impossible to live with?
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:26:00 - [2] This is similar to what Ive been thinking. Except the whole cruiser missile bonus But yes the fragile missileboat approach is much better. Id even say give it a bit less shield also to make it more into that role. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the matari people!
Yoshimako	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:27:00 - [3] Originally by: Taran Blake A couple of suggestions. - 10% Missile Velocity Bonus As has been said many times now. With the introduction of HAM's it would be overpowered to have a ROF bonus and a velocity bonus on this ship. Besides you said nothing about reducing its tank (other then removing the res bonus) to balance it out. As ive said muliple times, im all for you getting a missile gank ship, hell id fly it myself most likely, but you cannot have gank damage with the tank this thing has.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:32:00 - [4] Originally by: Taran Blake A couple of suggestions. 1. Change the Ferox. - 6/3 Rail/Missile Spread w/7 hardpoints - Give it enough grid to allow fitting of 6 x 250mm rails Leave current bonuses intact. Result: Rail Tank 2. Change the Drake to - 5% RoF Bonus for Cruiser Missiles - 10% Missile Velocity Bonus Leave it with 6 missile slots. Result: Missile Gank Would something like the above setups be impossible to live with? I'd rather see: Ferox change to 7/3 with 7 hardpoints, and be a longrange railship, like the brutix is a shortrange wtfpwn ship. Change the Drake back to 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, turn resists into missile velocity, and cut its armor/shields/hull by 25%. Result: Railship 'on par' with Brutix, and a gankship that is going to wtfpwn cruisers and get wtfpwned by battleships, just like in the orginal description of them given to us. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.11.20 12:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Yoshimako Originally by: Taran Blake A couple of suggestions. - 10% Missile Velocity Bonus As has been said many times now. With the introduction of HAM's it would be overpowered to have a ROF bonus and a velocity bonus on this ship. Besides you said nothing about reducing its tank (other then removing the res bonus) to balance it out. As ive said muliple times, im all for you getting a missile gank ship, hell id fly it myself most likely, but you cannot have gank damage with the tank this thing has. 10% missile velocity goes from the 'max range' of 15km to 20-22km. The real range of HAMs with a velocity bonus will be around 20km with max skills, because you dont hit at that 15km max range 99% of the time. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Paigan Amarr Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2006.11.20 13:48:00 - [6] /signed Good idea. Since the beginning, ferox was better off with launchers instead rails anyway. Even against its bonus. Only advantage of a rail ferox over a missile ferox is its sniping ability. But then it's pwned even by a tech1 megathron, so this is irrelevant. The OP's suggestion would at least buff the rail ferox a little. I wouldn't mind if the drake keeps it kin bonus, though, as i think this is a only fair bonus compared to amarr / gallente / minmatar weapons and bonuses. -- This game is still in beta stage
TalanR Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 14:06:00 - [7] /signed after kali I will fly a caracal with HAMS
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 14:22:00 - [8] /signed that Ferox neeeds some post-Drake lovin'. Although you've gootta be careful about buffing up the Ferox to "be equal to the Brutix" as a hybrid boat. Remember, Myrmidon is the Gall tank ship, and Brutix is the Gall gank ship. Ferox, being the Cal tank ship, shouldn't be out damaging the Brutix- the Brutix should be (roughly) the DPS of the "gank" tier 2 ships. -----------------------------------------------
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.20 15:31:00 - [9] You should have much less DPS than the Brutix. Caldari NEVER deserve to get missile gank ship. Why? Becuase you can choose ANY damage type, resulting in much higher 'true DPS', you use no cap to fire, you don't have to worry about tracking, you always hit, and you can passive tank. If you want to play in easy mode, you can **** well have less DPS.
Saria Mysdrial Amarr Daedalus Technologies	Posted - 2006.11.20 16:01:00 - [10] How about only a 5% missile velocity bonus for HAMs, but 10% for regular Heavy Missiles. That way, the HAMs still stay mostly short-range/high-DPS, but the regular heavies can at least reach as far as the caracal's missiles. Sad, but true.
Viictoria	Posted - 2006.11.20 16:22:00 - [11] Originally by: Butter Dog You should have much less DPS than the Brutix. Caldari NEVER deserve to get missile gank ship. Why? Becuase you can choose ANY damage type, resulting in much higher 'true DPS', you use no cap to fire, you don't have to worry about tracking, you always hit, and you can passive tank. If you want to play in easy mode, you can **** well have less DPS. Every race can use missiles and most caldari ships that get bonuses to them are either velocity bonuses or + to Kinetic so they aren't getting much better damage anyway. BTW, how does a missile boat "gank" while passively tanking? Where are the speed mods, and tackling mods going to go? Any passive tank that has a chance in hell of holding up in PvP is probably taking up 100% of mid and low slots. And even then it'll only hold up against a single opponent, an active tank still gives superior surviveability against anything that's not an NPC. Nevermind that though, because a ship as slow as a battlecruiser is going to need a web and a scram (or two) and a MWD (effectively neutralizing any chance of passive tank) just to keep the opponent in range because in the real world players don't just sit still and wait for a 140m/s brick to slowboat into 15km range and then stay there until they die. And if it needs a dedicated tackler it might as well be a battleship, so it needs to be able to do the job itself. If you ask me, easy mode is watching a drone orbit a BS while it spins in circles trying to hit it and you go AFK for a cup of tea while sitting at your chosen distance shooting it until it dies. YOU DON'T EVEN NEED TO ATTEMPT TO TANK. But hey that's PvE, where everybody has it easy right? Or was it just Caldari?
Faricar Caldari Knightmares Inc	Posted - 2006.11.20 16:24:00 - [12] Drake: Reduce PG by 50. ROF Bonus of 5%, 10% flight time bonus... Penalty: 25% off Shield Extenders...
Captain Raynor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Taran Blake A couple of suggestions. 1. Change the Ferox. - 6/3 Rail/Missile Spread w/7 hardpoints - Give it enough grid to allow fitting of 6 x 250mm rails Leave current bonuses intact. Result: Rail Tank 2. Change the Drake to - 5% RoF Bonus for Cruiser Missiles - 10% Missile Velocity Bonus Leave it with 6 missile slots. Result: Missile Gank Would something like the above setups be impossible to live with? sorry all this makes too much sense thus it will never happen =P seriously though that's what i would like to see too, this nerfs the drakes tank which is what people feel is overpowered and boost the ferox up to RAILBOAT as opposed to ship with pg for rails but fits hvy launchers and nos. =/ Quote: Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
Asith	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:32:00 - [14] I have to say i like the sound on the sugestions in this topic with ferox being tank and rail and drake being dmage buit no tank !!!!! i really want a dev or Gm to post a reply its annoying that they never do!
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:24:00 - [15] Originally by: Butter Dog You should have much less DPS than the Brutix. Caldari NEVER deserve to get missile gank ship. Why? Becuase you can choose ANY damage type, resulting in much higher 'true DPS', you use no cap to fire, you don't have to worry about tracking, you always hit, and you can passive tank. If you want to play in easy mode, you can **** well have less DPS. No butterdog you are wrong. Caldari only does this against the idiot that will chose to give it a fair fight. The only thing you can hope to force into an engagement in a Caldari BC is a heavy BS... perhaps not even that...(heavy BSs usually hunor you with the sly intention of wtfpowining you). You wanna play eve in th easy mode my dluded friend? Go minmattar... a lot more gank a bit of tank and the abiltiy to chose your fights every single time... You are too big? Stay and play alone. You are small and agile? Well I am big and more agile Thats the easy mode in EvE atm... The only pilots who fear Caldari prowess are the Serps, Guristas etc... and some drones in these forums... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:31:00 - [16] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia 10% missile velocity goes from the 'max range' of 15km to 20-22km. The real range of HAMs with a velocity bonus will be around 20km with max skills, because you dont hit at that 15km max range 99% of the time. Umm... What are you trying to pull here? Max range on HAMs (javelins) is 101 kilometers with just skills.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:33:00 - [17] Originally by: Butter Dog You should have much less DPS than the Brutix. Caldari NEVER deserve to get missile gank ship. Why? Becuase you can choose ANY damage type, resulting in much higher 'true DPS', you use no cap to fire, you don't have to worry about tracking, you always hit, and you can passive tank. If you want to play in easy mode, you can **** well have less DPS. QFT. In fact, I think I said that very thing yesterday. :)
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 18:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Yoshimako Originally by: Taran Blake A couple of suggestions. - 10% Missile Velocity Bonus As has been said many times now. With the introduction of HAM's it would be overpowered to have a ROF bonus and a velocity bonus on this ship. Besides you said nothing about reducing its tank (other then removing the res bonus) to balance it out. As ive said muliple times, im all for you getting a missile gank ship, hell id fly it myself most likely, but you cannot have gank damage with the tank this thing has. its a caldari BC even with the agility changes its still one of the slowest out there to fit it with a tank without the bonuses it proberly isnt going to be the one pinning you down so it wont really matter
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.20 20:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Butter Dog You should have much less DPS than the Brutix. Caldari NEVER deserve to get missile gank ship. Why? Becuase you can choose ANY damage type, resulting in much higher 'true DPS', you use no cap to fire, you don't have to worry about tracking, you always hit, and you can passive tank. If you want to play in easy mode, you can **** well have less DPS. QFT. In fact, I think I said that very thing yesterday. :) You think that makes him feel better? Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.20 20:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Viictoria Originally by: Butter Dog You should have much less DPS than the Brutix. Caldari NEVER deserve to get missile gank ship. Why? Becuase you can choose ANY damage type, resulting in much higher 'true DPS', you use no cap to fire, you don't have to worry about tracking, you always hit, and you can passive tank. If you want to play in easy mode, you can ** well have less DPS. Every race can use missiles [snip] Thats the start of your arguement, is it? Any race can use missiles. LOL! Okay, let me fit my megathron with 2 launchers and see how far that gets me. Or perhaps I can fit 1 on the Hyperion. Perhaps I can fit some on the Geddon, Apoc, Abaddon... Missiles are your PRIMARY WEAPON on the Drake. There is a **ing big difference between having a primary weapon system, with a bonus to support that, and having a few spare slots which are next to pointless. Get real. Learn to play. Then post. That order please... now will the next exclamation mark step forward
Butter Dog ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.11.20 20:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Crellion The only pilots who fear Caldari prowess are the Serps, Guristas etc... and some drones in these forums... I said it was EVE in easy mode, I didnt say it was uber. Select damage type. Lock. Click. Done. Thats all you have to think about. You don't have to worry about transversal, falloff/optimal, cap, tracking, how your damage type is being tanked against but you can't change it, your ships speed, the direction you are moving... etc You want easy mode? You got it. But don't expect all those luxuries AND being able to select any damage type and the gank.
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.20 20:49:00 - [22] Edited by: Crellion on 20/11/2006 20:52:28 Edited by: Crellion on 20/11/2006 20:50:23 Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Crellion The only pilots who fear Caldari prowess are the Serps, Guristas etc... and some drones in these forums... I said it was EVE in easy mode, I didnt say it was uber. Select damage type. Lock. Click. Done. Thats all you have to think about. You don't have to worry about transversal, falloff/optimal, cap, tracking, how your damage type is being tanked against but you can't change it, your ships speed, the direction you are moving... etc You want easy mode? You got it. But don't expect all those luxuries AND being able to select any damage type and the gank. So you are basically saying people should start out as Caldari to get isk and SPs and be useful in gangs despite bad SPs and bad pilot skills and then, once they know how to fly a ship switch over to Minmattar or at least Gallente. Well, in fact more people than you know do just that... the problem remains however... for the people whi specced in Caldari missles (and I assure you I am not one of those) with no alternatives is it fair for them to have to train a whole new race and its guns (if they go for minmattar) in order to be competitive in actual pvp (including 1v1 and 500v500 and not just in the 5v5 niche)? Personally I think no. I think Rokh (while still inferior to Malestrom Abbadon and probably Mega and Tempy too for pure "allaince fleet" pvp) was a step in the right direction. Give them some instadamage while you are taking them of the wcs drug... Drake was also a good concept: why? because without escaping the Caldari norm of "sux solo uber in a gang" gave Caldaris a real Gank set up for the first time in tech I non BS history... thus helping newer Caldari players to appreciate how useless mission running rly is. The accident was that it was given an uber tank to boot (again uber in a gang... a solo pvp Drake has almsot certainly a worse tank than a solo pvp Harbr - Hurricane and even perhaps the poor Myrmiddon). [However people on Sisi said: Oh!!!!! I have to warp before he warps every time nerf nerf nerf... and Tux DID nerf.] Now another uber Caldari mission boat enters the fray with a passive shield tank that makes Angels wanna cry... Ummm Hax? Right..... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Celesta Croft Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.11.20 20:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Butter Dog You should have much less DPS than the Brutix. Caldari NEVER deserve to get missile gank ship. Why? Becuase you can choose ANY damage type, resulting in much higher 'true DPS', you use no cap to fire, you don't have to worry about tracking, you always hit, and you can passive tank. If you want to play in easy mode, you can **** well have less DPS. Let me preface my post by saying that I wish to side step the whole TheoryEve'ing (donate if you wish to use my word ) and say that using phrases like "always hit", "everything sucks", etc makes for a poor arguement. However some comments if I may: Minnie guns fall almost into the same category then. Choice of damage type and no cap to fire is a shared attribute. Anyone can passive tank. From the numbers I've read by a poster named Pottsey, some of the better ships to passive tank are the Gallente ones by sheer virtue of low slot quantity. So that leaves tracking. The only rebuttle I can say here is that the advantage a missile user has at close range becomes a compromise for an advantage gunnery users have at long range; long range sniping. If this does not please you feel free to train for "Hard Mode Eve" a.k.a Minmatar and have a taste of both. By the way, if we don't deserve to get a missile gank ship then what exactly is a Cerberus?
Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.20 20:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Celesta Croft Originally by: Butter Dog By the way, if we don't deserve to get a missile gank ship then what exactly is a Cerberus? No that has its separate role. Its a mission ship. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.11.20 21:00:00 - [25] Thanks for the new sig Butter Dog Caldari: Don't have to worry about transversal, falloff/optimal, cap, tracking, how your damage type is being tanked,ship speed, the direction you are moving... etc.
West Allis Minmatar Cornerstone Unlimited	Posted - 2006.11.20 21:19:00 - [26] Of course they won't change the ferox. Many of the thousands of people that own them will be like, WTF? You can't drastically change existing ships.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.20 21:34:00 - [27] Originally by: West Allis Of course they won't change the ferox. Many of the thousands of people that own them will be like, WTF? You can't drastically change existing ships. They've done it plenty of times before. You'd be severely mistaken if you think that all the ships in the game right now are exactly like they were when they first hit TQ. -----------------------------------------------
nutbar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.11.20 21:51:00 - [28] There's always going to be a "best" ship in EVE - the instant that everyone sees a ship that looks like it might be the new "best" ship in eve, they all scream bloody murder and tear in to CCP until they nerf the ship so that "order is restored". I've seen too many variations of nerf/denerfs for the drake (and now the ferox, oh god...). It seems that ultimately, the ship WAS FINE until someone loaded it up with HAMs and went to town on some poor kids shuttle. How about instead of playing Dr Kevorkian on the drake, we nerf the HAMs. The drake is supposed to be a tier 3 BC - let it play the role! It gets the resist bonus, it's a missile ship so it gets missile slots (and 7 slots was fine to begin with), and it gets missile bonuses (leave the ROF bonus, it makes complete sense just like a range bonus does for railguns). CCP, stop being so soft for nerfs because people complain. People complain about a LOT of things in EVE and yet you tell them to live with it - tell the whiners to live with the drake being a good ship. It's still not the best, but oh gnoes, it's better than the ferox! whine whine cry cry :P. If the drake is going to be such a crazy pwnmobile in close range, here's a tip - start training up caldari BC and buy a drake :P
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.20 22:14:00 - [29] Originally by: nutbar How about instead of playing Dr Kevorkian on the drake, we nerf the HAMs. Probably because with the exception of javelin HAMs, they're fine on other ships.
nutbar Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.11.20 22:43:00 - [30] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: nutbar How about instead of playing Dr Kevorkian on the drake, we nerf the HAMs. Probably because with the exception of javelin HAMs, they're fine on other ships. Ok, so then they'll be a bit worse on other ships - oh wait, that's right, then more people will whine that HAMs are useless, etc... :( I'm so glad I only play this game - being a CCP developer right now must be worse than being a *****monkey fighting withdrawl. CCP, careful with that nerfbat - it's all fun and games until someone takes an eye out.

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