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TomB
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Posted - 2003.11.12 13:42:00 -
[1]
Would really want some feedback on the changes on blasters and charges that are on Chaos, people seem to argue too much about other things than how it's currently on the Test server.
CHARGES
Crystals
Standard
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.0 to 1.6
Infrared
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.2 to 1.4
Microwave
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.4 to 1.2
Radio
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.6 to 1.0
Ultraviolet
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 0.9 to 0.875
Xray
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 0.8 to 0.75
Gamma
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 0.7 to 0.625
Multifrequency
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 0.6 to 0.5
Small Thermal Damage from 7 to 6
Small Thermal Damage from 14 to 12
Small Thermal Damage from 28 to 24
Also few small crystals had incorrect stats and are now compairable to the medium and larger crystals
Ammo
Carbonized Lead
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.3 to 1.6
Nuclear
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.2 to 1.4
Photon
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.1 to 1.2
Hybrid Ammo
Iron
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.3 to 1.6
Tungsten
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.2 to 1.4
Iridium
Optimal Range bonus/penality from 1.1 to 1.2
GUNS
Light Electron Blaster
Optimal Range from 500 to 1000
Tracking Speed from 0.08 to 0.1
Light Ion Blaster
Optimal Range from 600 to 1250
Tracking Speed from 0.08 to 0.1
Light Neutron Blaster
Optimal Range from 700 to 1500
Tracking Speed from 0.08 to 0.1
125mm Railgun
Tracking Speed from 0,02 to 0,025
150mm Railgun
Tracking Speed from 0,02 to 0,025
Damage Multiplier from 2,5 to 2,75
ROF from 4000 to 4250
Heavy Electron Blaster
Optimal Range from 1000 to 2000
Tracking Speed from 0.0267 to 0.033
Heavy Ion Blaster
Optimal Range from 1200 to 2500
Tracking Speed from 0.0267 to 0.033
Heavy Neutron Blaster
Optimal Range from 1400 to 3000
Tracking Speed from 0.0267 to 0.033
250mm Railgun
Tracking Speed from 0,0067 to 0,0083
Damage Multiplier from 2,5 to 2,75
ROF from 6000 to 6735
Dual Heavy Ion Blaster
Optimal Range from 2000 to 4000
Tracking Speed from 0.0089 to 0.011
Ion Blaster Cannon
Optimal Range from 2400 to 5000
Tracking Speed from 0.0089 to 0.011
Neutron Blaster Cannon
Optimal Range from 2800 to 6000
Tracking Speed from 0.0089 to 0.011
425mm Railgun
Tracking Speed from 0,0022 to 0,00278
Damage Multiplier from 2,5 to 2,75
ROF from 9000 to 9563
"Where is my hat?" |
DaniB
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Posted - 2003.11.12 14:58:00 -
[2]
Hey TomB... Its much of work to install these 1245 - 1246 - 1247 - 1248 patches... could you bound them to a bigger patch for the test server... only a thought... and, update the mirrored chars, they are more then a month behind.. Then, maybe, more ppl find the way to chaos server...
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Latta
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Posted - 2003.11.12 15:06:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Latta on 12/11/2003 15:10:34
Re-copy your TQ install and apply these two to it:
1238-1296
1296-1297
Oops, this format is not the same as eve-i UBB |
Mitchman
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Posted - 2003.11.12 15:34:00 -
[4]
The infrared and radio range penalty should be switched back so that radio still has the best range. This is due to people having a stockpile of BPs and crystals already, and don't want to invest in another BP just because a crystal changed.
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Torment
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Posted - 2003.11.12 15:35:00 -
[5]
Well from many many fights testing large blaster's on chaos against various ships i have won 0..now from 10k like you say the blasters will own all other guns,even though lasers still hit you good at that range.
The problem is the blasters are still missing or hitting for low amounts the vast majority of shot's(still indicates a tracking problem)and as most fights will start from 25k so you have to use a mwd,by the time you reach optimal you are already pretty badly damaged.
Now i know you cannot make the tracking and damage on blasters to good or everyone will just bolt them on there ships.
So why not improve the Megathron's bonus to tracking when using blasters,That way the people who use those guns in a megathron will be the only people with an advantage,because at the momement there is none.
As for 425mm's they are nearly there,maybe increase there damage mod to 2.9 or 3.0 or just give them a bit more tracking.
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.12 16:21:00 -
[6]
Looks like all the changes you made were reset when they installed the new DB update on Chaos. :/
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Ranx Xerox
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Posted - 2003.11.12 16:21:00 -
[7]
Very good idea, Give BS Gallente no only a good 5 % / level hybride dam mod but also another good % for making blaster very effective on a dedicated Hybrid gunner platform :)
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.12 16:34:00 -
[8]
Humm... good idea Torment. I wonder how the blasters would do if we keep the tracking at 0.01 and give the Megathron a 10% tracking boost per level instead of 5%.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.11.12 16:54:00 -
[9]
Very true, Chaos is again up to date on the database.
"Where is my hat?" |
ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.12 17:32:00 -
[10]
Looks like all the changes are back now but the server is laggy as hell atm.
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.12 17:35:00 -
[11]
And Fight Club is still MIA. :/
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ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.12 17:40:00 -
[12]
TomB don't forget to up the damage on the Dual railguns or there will no point in using them over the class below them.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.11.12 17:52:00 -
[13]
 Quote:
TomB don't forget to up the damage on the Dual railguns or there will no point in using them over the class below them.
I'll most likely just do the same with them as I did with the other railguns, up the damage and slow them down.
"Where is my hat?" |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.11.12 18:34:00 -
[14]
Edited by: dalman on 12/11/2003 22:28:18
Quote:
Humm... good idea Torment. I wonder how the blasters would do if we keep the tracking at 0.01 and give the Megathron a 10% tracking boost per level instead of 5%.
ehm, the megathron bonus is already one of the best ship bonuses (only beaten by the Tempest), so VERY MUCH NO!
On the topic,
This are the changes I've been screaming for during many months.
Railgun is supposed to be the #1 long range gun, but because of the charges, the 425mm rail has been #5! (after the 2 lasers and 2 projectiles)
Because projectile users can use EMP ammo at great range because of the falloff, and laser users has had more damage and better range bonus on the "ammo".
However, as mentioned, when it comes to long range ammo, there is still an advantage for the lasers. I'd like to see that the long range ammo and charges gets on pair with the crystals. (don't nerf the chrystals, up the charges/ammo)
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.12 18:47:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 12/11/2003 18:59:16
Quote:
.. and as most fights will start from 25k so you have to use a mwd,by the time you reach optimal you are already pretty badly damaged.
How do you get to your target? Do you simply "approach"?
If yes, don't do this! When you approach you have zero movement for the guns of the enemy - try to pilot manually a decaying orbit around him - that way his guns will have problems to track you. It will take a little longer to get into range, but you should be able to do this with a lot less damage to yourself.
-----------
As for feedback - I can only repeat myself:
 Some crystals still do more damage than some hybrid/pro ammo of the same range mod (especially in the mid-high range type) - I would suggest to improve the damage of hybrid/pros to the crystal level there.
The previous semi-logic of the crystal ranges (wavelengths) is now totally out of order - perhaps keeping the old order, but reducing or enhancing the damage (radio from 32 to 24, standart from 12/12 to 16/16 for example) would be better.
I would give rails a little more damageboost on the cost of ROF, but that's just a subjective "out of the gut" feeling. It would fit their supposed image as sinper weapons, though, since those are usually low rof - high damage weapons.
free speech not allowed here |
Torment
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Posted - 2003.11.12 18:49:00 -
[16]
yes the megathron's bonus is ok,But im afraid dalman when you see how little it affects hybrids especially blasters you would see my what i mean.
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Torment
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Posted - 2003.11.12 18:59:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Quote:
.. and as most fights will start from 25k so you have to use a mwd,by the time you reach optimal you are already pretty badly damaged.
How do you get to your target? Do you simply "approach"?
If yes, don't do this! When you approach you have zero movement for the guns of the enemy - try to pilot manually a decaying orbit around him - that way his guns will have problems to track you. It will take a little longer to get into range, but you should be able to do this with a lot less damage to yourself.
Good idea and would be nice if it worked that way,but im not sure it does.
If im going at 700m/s with mwd on,his guns should not be able to track me if im going in a straight line or circles.
The main point is ive tried every different way to try to win with blaster's starting at 25k and while the blasters have improved there just not quite there yet.
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CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.12 19:27:00 -
[18]
Ok TomB, i logged and did a little testing on Chaos, here are my overall views so far.
Crystals:
I can see what has been done here, range damage has been decreased and range penetration damage given shield resists has been even further decreased, damage also decreased on multis, overall i find these nerfs acceptable except for a few things.
Charges have been range boosted, damage boosted, hybrid turrets have been boosted although you ofset that against rof, now here comes the problem.
I can see no apparent difference between charges and crystals in total damage except that crystals are restricted only to EM and thermal.
The lower power and cap requirements of Hybrids and higher close in damage, range bonus and now higher damage across all platforms will make even the most ardent laser user think of the benefits to switching to them or projectiles.
If things remain the way they are on Chaos, i can virtually guarantee you that i will be mounting hybrids or projectiles as a weapon of choice based on their power/cap requirements vs damage dealing. In pratical terms it simply means i can install more of them on one single ship than i could with lasers and being that the damage is so close, overall more turrets of a lesser power/cap requirement will give me more damage output.
Considering all the above ie blaster boosts + charges / ammo boosts, Crystal range decreases and crystal damage decreases have not imo brought it to closer balance, imo you either nerf lasers / projectiles or boost large hybrids, you have done both so the boost is huge as it so stands taking into comparison the requirements of each type of weapon.
Add to that the current Medium slot imbalances and you can see where the problem lies.
My suggestions:
return crystals to their previous damage specs and lower radio to 1.5 from 1.6, moving it to 1.0 is only making it become a relic.
maintain NEW blaster boosts and charges boost, lets see how it plays on the live environment.
If you want to retain crystals as the same damage output as charges and ammo then pls adjust power requirements / cap requirements for all three weapon types.....see where this is heading Tomb ? True balance is only evident in items with identical stats unless you offset items against each other using different platforms of testing to reach as close to balance as possible.
Quite frankly only very few people log onto the chaos server and most of those seem to be motivated by personal reasons or ideals of balance ;) with the exception of the bug hunters/polaris guys who in all honesty are the ones that should be doing the chaos testing on balance exclusively. So live seems is the only way to see if it works or not.
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Zagum Darkfin
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Posted - 2003.11.12 19:40:00 -
[19]
Looks good. 
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.12 19:49:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Good idea and would be nice if it worked that way,but im not sure it does.
If im going at 700m/s with mwd on,his guns should not be able to track me if im going in a straight line or circles.
Could you elaborate this a little - cannot really follow you there.
Can only say that I used this tactics quite sucessfully against a tachyon BS on chaos. From 40km, though.
free speech not allowed here |
ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2003.11.12 19:52:00 -
[21]
The crystal changes are fine. Only the Multifrequency crystal was nerfed anyway... it had more total damage then Antimatter or EMP ammo but now its equal.
425mm rails on Gallente ships will do more damage then a Mega Beam now, but Mega Beams will do slightly more damage then a 425mm on a non-Gallente ship.
Anyway the Tachyon remains the supreme stand-off weapon.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.12 20:02:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 12/11/2003 20:05:48
@ CobraMac:
Again, please let's stick to the facts, shall we?
Charges have ONLY been range boosted, better: their range has been made the same as that of crystals.
And please don't let seem that this is a hybrid <-> laser problem - it's EXACTLY the same thing with laser <-> pros. Crystals were UNBALANCED vs ammo in range boni and damage. Point. There is no other way to say it. The higher costs of lasers are no justification for that. They have already the best tracking and damage/second for their cap disadvantage.
And this switch to hybrids which you prophecy will no happen. Why?
Let's look at mega beams and tachyons. Both have pretty much the same stats, exept that mega have lower grid reqs a lower damage/s and a lower energy/damage ratio - basically they are everything to the tachyons as you say hybrids are. And now the price question - what is used more often in BS - tachs or megas?
free speech not allowed here |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.11.12 22:29:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Anyway the Tachyon remains the supreme stand-off weapon.
Ehm, for a 1vs1 the Tachyon is completely useless, while in a 20vs20 fight you are a fool if you mount anything else than tachyons...
Sounds ok to me.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.11.12 22:32:00 -
[24]
Quote:
return crystals to their previous damage specs and lower radio to 1.5 from 1.6, moving it to 1.0 is only making it become a relic.
Well, I do alot of PvP, and I'm yet to see anyone using anything else than either multi or radio.
1.5 instead of 1.6 won't change a thing.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.12 23:11:00 -
[25]
Edited by: CobraMac on 12/11/2003 23:18:43
Well lets look at some quick numbers shall we:
Taking weapons and ammo on their own without ship bonuses and skills
Long Range:
Standard crystal / Iron Charge L / Tungs Charge
Tach 10.00 (Cap/S) 64000(opt) 5.44 Dmg/sec
425Rail 3.66 (cap/S) 76800(opt) 4.60 Dmg/sec
425Rail 3.66 (cap/S) 67000(opt) 5.75 Dmg/sec
Medium Range:
Multi crystal / Antimatter charge L/
Tach 10.00(Cap/S) 20000(opt) 14.96 Dmg/Sec
425Rail 3.66(cap/S) 24000(opt) 12.66 Dmg/Sec
Short Range
Antimatter Crystal / Tungst / Iron
NBlaster 3.81(cap/S) 2400(opt) 19.54 Dmg/Sec
NBlaster 3.81(cap/S) 8400(opt) 8.88 Dmg/Sec
Nblaster 3.81(cap/S) 9600(opt) 7.11 Dmg/sec
Now at a quick glance these numbers for current systems on the test server dont look too bad, but consider that the tachyon has almost 3 times the cap/s consumption and over 4000 MW requirement per turret, if you consider that then its out of wack, nobody in their right mind will choose the tachyon as the power/ cap penalties no longer benefit the extra damage it does only at medium range, long range it falls behind and we wont even talk about short range, but then again tach is not a short range weapon, well now it will be a poor mid range weapon. Honestly, save the power/cap penalties and go for Hybrids, makes much more sense now, use cap/power for some other lovely mods that fit in the ever so plenty medium slots :)
Tomb, mate i dont agree with those numbers based on requirements, tested it on test server, Hybrids are the way to go with these changes.
I havent even looked at the cruiser weapons and how they compare with the new changes, rails were considered good for cruisers, so now they are boosted aswell hmmmm
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CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.12 23:15:00 -
[26]
Quote:
The crystal changes are fine. Only the Multifrequency crystal was nerfed anyway... it had more total damage then Antimatter or EMP ammo but now its equal.
Wrong, check your facts, radios were nerfed aswell.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.12 23:23:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 13/11/2003 00:47:28
He was referring to the damage only. As for the numbers, let me check them.
.. in around 3 minutes when Chaos is up again.
First, using such crystals/ammo that tachyon and rail have the same optimal range is not valid, tachs are not as longrange as rails from the start, but they have a better tracking. Try attacking someone at 10 km with a rail and a tach - the tach will do fine, the rail not.
You could as well compar the neutron blasters and the tachs to proove the tachs are now underpowered. Oh, wait, you actually try that.
Blaster and Tachs are totally different weapons...  2.8 optimal <-> 20 optimal with best ammo/crystal can make a slight difference, you know.
Ah, Tomb reduced the medium and lowend crystals. Sorry, didn't knew that since he had not announced that yet.
Ok, in this case your number are of cource correct.
Let's see what happens when we include specialized ships and the appropriate skills:
Tach on apoc with large laser, amarr BS, controlled bursts, rapid fire lvl4, gunnery lvl5:
8.47 energy/s; 23.75 damage/s
425 Rails on Mega with large hybrid, gall bs, controlled brusts, rapid fire lvl4, gunnery lvl5:
3.87 energy/s; 24.11 damage/s
Mhhh.. Yes, it's ouchtime. From the pure damage/s numbers it seems lasers have now a slight advantage with lowend ammo and a slight disadvantage with highend ammo.
Which would be OK if there wouldn't be the higher energy. The higher fitting requs are ok, considering Amarr ships have vastly more powergrid than other races ships. They have a better cap as well, but it's not AS much better than other ships to balance the higher cap usage.
free speech not allowed here |
CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.12 23:29:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 12/11/2003 20:05:48
@ CobraMac:
Again, please let's stick to the facts, shall we?
Charges have ONLY been range boosted, better: their range has been made the same as that of crystals.
And please don't let seem that this is a hybrid <-> laser problem - it's EXACTLY the same thing with laser <-> pros. Crystals were UNBALANCED vs ammo in range boni and damage. Point. There is no other way to say it. The higher costs of lasers are no justification for that. They have already the best tracking and damage/second for their cap disadvantage.
And this switch to hybrids which you prophecy will no happen. Why?
Let's look at mega beams and tachyons. Both have pretty much the same stats, exept that mega have lower grid reqs a lower damage/s and a lower energy/damage ratio - basically they are everything to the tachyons as you say hybrids are. And now the price question - what is used more often in BS - tachs or megas?
Lets stick the facts as you call them since you so obviously seem to be a stranger to that concept ;)
Megas have more than twice the cap requirements of hybrids and do less damage at same optimal ranges with long range ammo/crystals so therefore what you stated is incorrect.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.11.12 23:31:00 -
[29]
Read that post again, since you are missing the point. If you do not want to understand it, not my problem.
free speech not allowed here |
CobraMac
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Posted - 2003.11.12 23:31:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 12/11/2003 23:25:54
He was referring to the damage only. As for the numbers, let me check them.
.. in around 3 minutes when Chaos is up again.
So was I check your facts.
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