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Remove NPC Demand for Minerals

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Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.12 18:52:00 - [1] Title says it all. Manufacturers are already below NPC buy price on minerals. Raising their prices would further cut into their profitability. As their costs would rise, but the lack of demand and the overabundance of manufacturers guarantee the prices of the manufactured goods don't rise to compensate. In a fully dynamic market system, we'd have seen the NPC demand for minerals disappear a long time ago. It wouldn't be profitable for them to continue buying minerals and doing nothing with them. As there are very few items they'd ever get a sale from to use up their supply. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Aethelgrin	Posted - 2003.11.12 18:58:00 - [2] While I think it's more important to remove the NPC supply of minerals, the demand also puts an unnatural limit on the market.
Master Scy	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:03:00 - [3] Dunno Jash, that could have a horrible effect on the market... Tougher for a noob to start out, maybe even too many miners in the economy etc... ----------------------------- You think Marco Polo said "Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ? -Indigo Seqi
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:04:00 - [4] Quote: While I think it's more important to remove the NPC supply of minerals, the demand also puts an unnatural limit on the market. The only time the npc supply of minerals becomes an issue is when the price for the minerals climbs to a high enough level. Megacyte is the only mineral even remotely approaching that level. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Dark Nyte	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:07:00 - [5] well what makes all the NPC ships ppl kill and the basic equipment and havesters and convoy stuff and trade goods ?
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:10:00 - [6] Quote: Dunno Jash, that could have a horrible effect on the market... Tougher for a noob to start out, maybe even too many miners in the economy etc... The new players wouldn't be significantly affected as there are missions and bounties which would remain unaffected given the level of income we're talking here. We're not talking about a difference of millions after all. As for too many miners in the economy? Yes, there are. But the NPCs buying minerals keep the natural system of Supply vs Demand from controlling the number of miners. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Sekhen	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:10:00 - [7] How about changing the NPC demand based on system SR? In 1.0 the demand would be higher because Concord and such need it for their fleet. and faaar out in 0.5 and such the demand is much lower, because the precence of NPC entites is simply lower. And if you want NPC price, you have to work for it (read "haul yourself"). Maybe with some modification where a 0.3 is right next to a 0.8 and similar... Just an idea. ------------------------------------------------ If there is doubt, there is no doubt. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world dominatio
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:11:00 - [8] Quote: well what makes all the NPC ships ppl kill and the basic equipment and havesters and convoy stuff and trade goods ? Not a damn thing. This isn't a discussion of roleplay. It's a discussion of mechanics. THe minerals sold to the npcs are not used for anything. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Draka	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:12:00 - [9] Edited by: Draka on 12/11/2003 19:15:57 Don't know about other Regions, but so far the 25 million plus buy orders from player Corporations here in Heimatar for Scordite and the other low end ores, not to mention the minerals themselves at NPC prices are more than enough to absorb all the mining I see going on. That is, the ones actually mining to sell instead of use themselves. I agree - time to go for a totally player driven market. I'd go so far as to have ALL NPC buy/sell orders yanked for those items that BPs are available for. I'd love to actually be able to sell all the items I bought BPs for - like Afterburners, 200mm AutoCannons, Basic Cargo Expanders .... ya know? Edit: Sheesh, by the time I finished typing this three posts were already in! LOL! CEO The Cinnaban Order "Dedicated to a Free Minmatar Republic"
Dirty Sanchez	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:15:00 - [10] This only makes sence as it would also help with the problems that the devs talk about with battleship mining in empire space. If you couldn't sell all that trit and pye so easy why would you mine it. You would have to ahul as much as you do now with the higherend stuff becuase you would not be able to turn around and sell it all at the local station. <Thrak> I AM ***
McWatt	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:15:00 - [11] the whole NPC part of the market is having a weird effect. so i guess (apart from some special offers for the noobs), this is a right thing to do.
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:19:00 - [12] I doubt that there is enough player demand for minerals to cover the player supply for minerals because theres not enough player demand for goods going on. Prices will crash and players still will not be able to offload their minerals. Players simply produce ways more minerals than they consume. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Dirty Sanchez	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:23:00 - [13] Luther this is true but the crash in mineral prices will also see the margin of income go up on manufactured goods even if the price falls some. <Thrak> I AM ***
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:23:00 - [14] NPC demand and supply must go - long overdue. Advantages far outweigh the disadvantages and might even go part way to salvaging the game. They should, however, introduce a commodity demand/supply system for the trade commodities based on station/planet/corp useage (NPC) One can only hope they are doing this with their re-seeding but i expect it will, instead, be a mundane and totally random affair.
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:27:00 - [15] Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 12/11/2003 19:32:47 Quote: The new players wouldn't be significantly affected as there are missions and bounties which would remain unaffected given the level of income we're talking here. We're not talking about a difference of millions after all. As for too many miners in the economy? Yes, there are. But the NPCs buying minerals keep the natural system of Supply vs Demand from controlling the number of miners. Ofcourse I have no numbers, but missiones and bounties I believe to be insignificant to the amount of minerals people mine. Yes, too many miners in the economy, but I dont think peoples profession choice should be controlled by supply and demand in a game. Albeit I dont think people really want to mine and mine and mine and mine and mine... I just want to see more pull in the economy, more player demand for things before the NPC economy is removed or reduced, reduced I think more credible. The devs should have the numbers, is the player economy balanced? player demand roughly similar to player supply? I dont think its there. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:31:00 - [16] Quote: I doubt that there is enough player demand for minerals to cover the player supply for minerals because theres not enough player demand for goods going on. Prices will crash and players still will not be able to offload their minerals. Players simply produce ways more minerals than they consume. There is. Ive had over 300 mil isk of requests out for scordite to kernite for a number of days - none of it was filled. Ya know why? Because it wasnt on one of the hub systems on the highway. Player supply is being condensed by the highway system creating narrow strips of economically viable systems/stations and great empty areas in the rest of empire space.... space where demand is never met because nobody sees a need to go there and worse case you refine your own ore and sell it to LOCAL NPC demand because its better than having to move huge volumes of ore (or minerals) .... as you cant use the courier system as it doesnt work practically. Kill NPC demand, kill the highways and kill any future production of BPCs whilst you're at it. It'd be a start anyway.
Chucky	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:33:00 - [17] It would only serve to drive the price down further on pye and trit. NPC demand for iso, mex and nocx are almost non-existant now and the price has suffered because of it. People buying trit and pye want it at npc price (or lower) and there is no motive for people to deliver it at that price when they can sell it anywhere for that. They need add more way of making money, not take away ones they already have. ... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture.
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:34:00 - [18] Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 12/11/2003 19:37:21 Neah, theyre not moving it to you, but if they did, theyd overwhelm you with minerals. Perhaps some tweaking could be tried, halve prices and total demand for units? Oh, and Interbus was on its way..errr...soon. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:38:00 - [19] Quote: Quote: The new players wouldn't be significantly affected as there are missions and bounties which would remain unaffected given the level of income we're talking here. We're not talking about a difference of millions after all. As for too many miners in the economy? Yes, there are. But the NPCs buying minerals keep the natural system of Supply vs Demand from controlling the number of miners. Ofcourse I have no numbers, but missiones and bounties I believe to be insignificant to the amount of minerals people mine. Mission and bounties are insignificant for an established player. They are more than adequate for getting started on. Quote: Yes, too many miners in the economy, but I dont think peoples profession choice should be controlled by supply and demand in a game. Albeit I dont think people really want to mine and mine and mine and mine and mine... The market and the economy of vital for there to even be a game. If they aren't healthy, and I don't think you'll find anyone willing to call either of them 'healthy' atm, the game is severely affected. Supply vs Demand has a way of balancing itself out. But only if it's allowed to do so. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:38:00 - [20] Quote: Neah, theyre not moving it to you, but if they did, theyd overwhelm you with minerals. Perhaps some tweaking could be tried, halve prices and total demand for units? How so? I can produce non-stop consuming those minerals.. production is only limited by local vailability of minerals (in my station).. or is the fact that i then can't sell the end product for any profit due to price cutting and global competition why they will overwhelm me? Because it isnt actually worth building for anybody other than "me"... and if i dont lose my ship then i dont need anything else? And i wont lose any ships because im mining safely inside a protected bubble and if the player wont buy the minerals i know the NPCs will? ...? The system is broken fundamentally.. a little nudge here and there wont help.
nails	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:38:00 - [21] The last thing I want to happen is to have to move 20 million tritanium 20 jumps away. the NPCs are there so we don't have to worry about if you are going to find someone stuipid enough to buy 20 million trit that will take them 10 days to move to the location they build at. If you want to do that from Nocx-Meg that would be more realistic, but there are many people with giant stockpiles of minerals they don't want to have to move. ------------------ http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
Tease	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:45:00 - [22] Quote: Mission and bounties are insignificant for an established player. They are more than adequate for getting started on. Not when there's griefers preying on them. "l337 pirates" start alts, run them thru the starter agent, get the first newly-assigned "real" agent and run a few missions to find out which 0.4 systems they'll normally AP thru. It's the best possible way for those uber 'pirates' to maximize thier kills and ensure that as many newbs as possible give up the game in frustration after dying multiple times just for doing agent missions. CCP needs to fix the current bugs and exploits in the game before they go and monkey with the market. ----------------------------------------- [2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level? [2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you [2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:53:00 - [23] Edited by: Jash Illian on 12/11/2003 19:56:22 Quote: Quote: Mission and bounties are insignificant for an established player. They are more than adequate for getting started on. Not when there's griefers preying on them. "l337 pirates" start alts, run them thru the starter agent, get the first newly-assigned "real" agent and run a few missions to find out which 0.4 systems they'll normally AP thru. It's the best possible way for those uber 'pirates' to maximize thier kills and ensure that as many newbs as possible give up the game in frustration after dying multiple times just for doing agent missions. CCP needs to fix the current bugs and exploits in the game before they go and monkey with the market. Griefer Hysteria to the left, please. Besides, it's perfectly viable for you to use the excuse that the starting solar systems getting mined out aren't an issue since the same n00bs can just make a few jumps and find plenty to mine. Hypocrisy to the left also, please. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:54:00 - [24] I just mean 300 mil, and any other 100's of mil by any other producer will be dwarfed by huge mineral supply which I believe exists. I believe it exists because I cant see how there is sufficient player demand in this economy without things breaking and no war going on. Why are people buying things? They buy something once...then its there, like forever! Jash, yes, supply and demand balance themselves out, but its dangerous because its a game and unlike the real world, poor people can quit! ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.12 19:57:00 - [25] Quote: The last thing I want to happen is to have to move 20 million tritanium 20 jumps away. the NPCs are there so we don't have to worry about if you are going to find someone stuipid enough to buy 20 million trit that will take them 10 days to move to the location they build at. If you want to do that from Nocx-Meg that would be more realistic, but there are many people with giant stockpiles of minerals they don't want to have to move. lolol Quote of the decade. Proof positive, as if it were needed, of my point. there are no regionalised markets or empire divisions. There is simply a strip of viable sytems adjacent to highways or key points. The recent dev commentary on empire systems being mined out by strip mining is also vacant... there are safe empire systems in abundance with good ore, but their locale away from 2 or 3 hops from a highway makes them redundant. There is no population pressure to force people away from the narrow highway strips. Its an industrial estate either side of a motorway fcol and setting up shop anywhere else is... as Nails so delicately put it... "stupid". Highways killed the economy - we know this. NPC demand was only needed to bootstrap the economy - we know this. Remove both. - - - (Big shock for those concerned when the highways get closed down when war breaks out...and atm the only tiny ray of light for the entire economic future of this so-called market economy.) - - - - - (Hey so what happened to the other promise about NPC hauliers?...oh yeah sonnÖ)
Dark Nyte	Posted - 2003.11.12 20:02:00 - [26] Quote: Quote: well what makes all the NPC ships ppl kill and the basic equipment and havesters and convoy stuff and trade goods ? Not a damn thing. This isn't a discussion of roleplay. It's a discussion of mechanics. THe minerals sold to the npcs are not used for anything. Ok but then its not really a real economy either is it, if we are talking game mechanics it is all seeded to make the game as enjoybale for everyone from Miners/manufactures and Fighters and to enable anyone to do what they want to. so really it would screw up the game mechanics
Dark Nyte	Posted - 2003.11.12 20:09:00 - [27] Plus... It would never work. the reason NPC's exist is so that everyone can do as much fun stuff as possible and as little boring stuff. at the end of the day all you would do is make 90% of eve mine twices as more for the same stuff and Player made stuff prices would have to drop It would be a disaster. in a market economy some ppl cannot progress because others hold the key positions/stuff and if that was the case in a game ppl wouldn't play.
Chucky	Posted - 2003.11.12 20:13:00 - [28] Morkt I offered to deliver the kind minerals you wanted, you just didn't offer to pay the price required for it to be worth my time. In beta the market was thriving at paying 3 isk for trit and 150 isk for iso. There was less BP's and care then, but it still worked. If you wanna play you gotta pay Ofcoarse people aren't goin to haul trit 20 jumps to sell it at 1 isk, if you did we wouldn't bother to clear fields and the "baby roid" problem would be worse then it already is. Quote: Quote: The last thing I want to happen is to have to move 20 million tritanium 20 jumps away. the NPCs are there so we don't have to worry about if you are going to find someone stuipid enough to buy 20 million trit that will take them 10 days to move to the location they build at. If you want to do that from Nocx-Meg that would be more realistic, but there are many people with giant stockpiles of minerals they don't want to have to move. lolol Quote of the decade. Proof positive, as if it were needed, of my point. there are no regionalised markets or empire divisions. There is simply a strip of viable sytems adjacent to highways or key points. The recent dev commentary on empire systems being mined out by strip mining is also vacant... there are safe empire systems in abundance with good ore, but their locale away from 2 or 3 hops from a highway makes them redundant. There is no population pressure to force people away from the narrow highway strips. Its an industrial estate either side of a motorway fcol and setting up shop anywhere else is... as Nails so delicately put it... "stupid". Highways killed the economy - we know this. NPC demand was only needed to bootstrap the economy - we know this. Remove both. - - - (Big shock for those concerned when the highways get closed down when war breaks out...and atm the only tiny ray of light for the entire economic future of this so-called market economy.) - - - - - (Hey so what happened to the other promise about NPC hauliers?...oh yeah sonnÖ) ... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.12 20:28:00 - [29] Quote: Quote: Quote: well what makes all the NPC ships ppl kill and the basic equipment and havesters and convoy stuff and trade goods ? Not a damn thing. This isn't a discussion of roleplay. It's a discussion of mechanics. THe minerals sold to the npcs are not used for anything. Ok but then its not really a real economy either is it, if we are talking game mechanics it is all seeded to make the game as enjoybale for everyone from Miners/manufactures and Fighters and to enable anyone to do what they want to. so really it would screw up the game mechanics That's the problem: The game is designed to depend on a real economy. Artificial factors, like NPC buying vast quantities of minerals and having no effect on supply, only harm the game further. Mining veldspar and scordite should represent the least profitable mining venture possible. The NPC mineral demand prevents it from doing so causing an imbalance. Quote: Plus... It would never work. the reason NPC's exist is so that everyone can do as much fun stuff as possible and as little boring stuff. at the end of the day all you would do is make 90% of eve mine twices as more for the same stuff and Player made stuff prices would have to drop It would be a disaster. in a market economy some ppl cannot progress because others hold the key positions/stuff and if that was the case in a game ppl wouldn't play. Your speculation on the reasons for NPC existance is flawed and the flaw is pretty obvious: If that were the case, why isn't there any baseline NPC demand for manufactured goods? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Naz Farooq	Posted - 2003.11.12 20:28:00 - [30] Quote: Kill NPC demand, kill the highways and kill any future production of BPCs whilst you're at it. Yes, Yes, and Yes. Please do it CCP. Please please please. Sure, everyone supports saving Einstein's brain, but when you put it in the body of a Great White Shark, suddenly you've "gone too far".

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