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Chucky	Posted - 2003.11.13 00:53:00 - [91] Currently it takes an average know nothing noob 2-3 weeks to get a cruiser. It takes the same noob 2-3 seconds to get it blown to **. And they go insurance? whats that?!?!? Resource collection is to slow even for a mmorpg, bounties and rewards are to low an way to little action because peeps are scared of loosing what they got. But put all that a side, you are talking about nerfing the base price of dirt! ***** dirt!!! Get off your ass and mine yourself if you donÆt wanna pay above npc prices. ... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture.
Aethelgrin	Posted - 2003.11.13 00:55:00 - [92] Jash did get that one wrong. I routinely load up my Mammoth with Mexallon and fly around Heimatar selling at 16. But, I'm not selling to any players. Just NPCs. I'm completely cut-off from manufacturing.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:02:00 - [93] Edited by: Jash Illian on 13/11/2003 01:04:38 Quote: Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 13/11/2003 00:57:34 Quote: Oh? Average price of Pyerite in Heimatar: 3 Average price of Mexallon in Heimatar: 13 Average price of Isogen in Heimatar: 62 Average price of Nocxium in Heimatar: 223 What you're seeing are the results of an oversupply of minerals in the region. The NPCs cannot buy the entire supply. And enough of being sold below NPC price to people, for manufacturing and trade, to create a noticable effect on the market. This is the funniest thing I have ever read on these forums. Jash, everyone knows that the market is broken and that the only price displayed is the lowest price. Using this screwy logic, the market was saturated the first day of the game when some ganker posted a buy for 56 for iso at the noobie starting station. Actually, Miri Tirzan, you made an incorrect assumption. Those aren't the prices of the minerals currently for sale. That's the average price of the minerals actually sold in the region. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Kalar Vrask	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:05:00 - [94] Quote: The truth of the matter is that the larger corps buy as many minerals as they can get, or they were until the shortage of rare minerals due to a known CCP problem with roid respawn that has yet to be resolved. I wouldn't be so sure of that. I'm of the understanding that the amount of rare minerals in the galaxy is tied to the number of subscriptions or players. Along the lines of there's so much megacyte per player, initially distributed across the universe in ore. As that's mined out, it's only respawned as and when new players join the game or existing resources which contain the mineral are consumed - i.e. ships blown up. I'd be very surprised personally, if one day there's a magical patch comes along and you suddenly have 600 unit Bistot rocks 3 jumps from Gehi. Lets face it they could have done that back in August when the problem first kicked off - anyone else remember mining a belt out fully one day, to go back a day later & find it completely repopped? That doesn't happen anymore, presumably down to fewer new subscribers. One of the objectives of the game is to have us all fighting over resources in deep space as time goes on, the only resources that are really worth fighting over are megacyte & zydrine....
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:10:00 - [95] "Currently it takes an average know nothing noob 2-3 weeks to get a cruiser. It takes the same noob 2-3 seconds to get it blown to **. And they go insurance? whats that?!?!?" ... You'd think during those 2-3 weeks they would actually bother to check what those few large buttons in the station interface do, if just out of curiosity...
Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:11:00 - [96] Quote: That's the average price of the minerals actually sold in the region. Which can still be manipulated ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
SUNscatcher	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:17:00 - [97] Edited by: SUNscatcher on 13/11/2003 01:20:49 Up the NPC for all mins to infinite and over time all mins not being used for manufacturing get removed from the game. Increase the mineral requirements for manufacturing all items tenfold and you aggrevate the shortage caused by infinite npc demand. In time min prices will float at player controlled levels above npc based upon the success of their manufacturing endevors. thats how i see it should be working. how it is actually working. an extremely greater amount of mins are being mined than can possibly be used in manufacturing. with no npc demand all common minerals would be selling for dirt prices. manufacturers would be manufacturing their products at dirt costs and selling them at dirt cheap prices. anyone that has ever been to a third world country has seen with their own eyes without a demand strong enough to result in a shortage of desired items prices are at ground, bare subsistance levels. in the real world items wear out or are consumed. not so in eve. so a demand that results in a shortage has to be created for the market to work, ie cu' vapor mining lasers were a strong fluctuating trade item until the introduction of miner II's, add all the lessor mining lasers also. with the introduction of miner II's the demand for these items has all but disappeared and prices for them are at a very small fraction of what they once were. Miner II's introduction into the game was a good thing but they should have been added to the game as loot just as the other lasers were to keep the market for them all to remain strong. get rid of npc demand for minerals and you will have so many minerals availible that the crash in their value will drag every manufactured item down with them and thus the entire economy of eve along with them. If you can catch me you can have me.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:19:00 - [98] Quote: Quote: That's the average price of the minerals actually sold in the region. Which can still be manipulated Yes it can. But not when anyone with any real experience with the mineral market knows what will happen to minerals you place at or above NPC price at a station without NPC demand: It'll sit there except for desperation manufacturers (running short a couple k needed for something). I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:27:00 - [99] Quote: get rid of npc demand for minerals and you will have so many minerals availible that the crash in their value will drag every manufactured item down with them and thus the entire economy of eve along with them. CCP is already aware that item degradation is required. The only concern I have on that standpoint, now that they finally admit what people have been saying since beta, is that it's applied to all items, especially tech lvl 1 ships. The only Tech lvl 2 ships even mentioned near implementing so far are frigates, which will not carry the economy. And again I'll say, manufacturing needs to be made unprofitable unless you're manufacturing for profit. Self-manufacturing eliminates a large portion of the demand in the game. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:28:00 - [100] Quote: That's the average price of the minerals actually sold in the region. On the NPC Market. Many PC-PC transactions take place w/o the aid of the screwed up Market. Major corporations are constantly purchasing minerals at above Market prices. The existence of a constant demand implies the absence of an "oversupply." NPC Mineral demand doesn't have much of anything to do with the problems facing the EVE Market right now. Players who want to make a decent profit from Minerals sell to other players, and those who want to buy in bulk buy from other players. NPC demand is simply a convenience for people trying to make a quick buck, and removing it will be nothing but that - an inconvenience. Manufacturing is tanked because everyone can produce their own items, not enough items are cycled out generating new demand, and too many people are selling identical items w/ not enough demand to cover all the sales. NPC Mineral demand is a non-issue. Veruna Caseti Ishukone

Luther Pendragon	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:48:00 - [101] Quote: CCP is already aware that item degradation is required. The only concern I have on that standpoint, now that they finally admit what people have been saying since beta, ...saying since before beta. And it wont carry everything on its own either. Things need to consume other things, like charges, ammo. People still trade in missiles, they get used and have to be bought again. ____________________________________ Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi! waves his hand in your face in the jedi way
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.13 01:57:00 - [102] Edited by: Jash Illian on 13/11/2003 02:12:25 Edited by: Jash Illian on 13/11/2003 02:02:44 to correct some numbers Quote: Quote: That's the average price of the minerals actually sold in the region. On the NPC Market. Many PC-PC transactions take place w/o the aid of the screwed up Market. Major corporations are constantly purchasing minerals at above Market prices. The existence of a constant demand implies the absence of an "oversupply." The resulting increase in production cost to go above NPC would price them right out the market. That is if you're manufacturing to actually sell the manufactured product. Buying the minerals above npc prices and self manufacturing allows some savings between the npc production cost and the market prices for the actual product. But that margin isn't very large. Meeting NPC price for Trit, Pye, Mex, Iso and Nocx with a ME 5 Scorpion blueprint will have a production cost of 49,125,027. That's with Zyd @ 1448 and Meg @ 10655. Scorpions barely cross the 60m mark. You think manufacturers are settling for 10.1m isk profit for the amount of work involved getting minerals through PC-PC deals? Less, if they go above NPC price. Manufacturers routine buy below npc prices through raw ore purchases and buying the surplus minerals off the market. And even someone self manufacturing through a blueprint license could find themselves paying => NPC prices will cost them more than buying the manufactured good. NPC price + cost for the BPC = above market prices as well. Market, meaning the market as a whole. Not just the gui interface in stations. You do not know what you're talking about here. Quote: NPC Mineral demand doesn't have much of anything to do with the problems facing the EVE Market right now. Players who want to make a decent profit from Minerals sell to other players, and those who want to buy in bulk buy from other players. NPC demand is simply a convenience for people trying to make a quick buck, and removing it will be nothing but that - an inconvenience. The market can't begin to correct itself so long as the artificial demand remains in it. This isn't the sum of a solution to the market issues, only a part of it. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.13 02:27:00 - [103] Quote: Quote: Highways killed the economy - we know this. No we don't !! An over abundant never-ending supply of BP copies and the lack of wear & tear on items ruined the market. Both of which I might add are SLOWLY being addressed. You are correct - the Highways just made it spread like the most infectious and fastest moving virus ever seen. (Can you tell i hate the highways?)
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.11.13 02:28:00 - [104] Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 13/11/2003 02:35:50 Quote: You do not know what you're talking about here. If you say so. I've only been a member of a corporation whose sole activities include mining and manufacturing since my second day in game. I guess I'm clueless as to the reasons why we find it difficult to make a profit on items we manufacture and sell. NPC demand for minerals is the least of our worries. Once again you propose a sweeping monumental change to a system that needs many smaller fixes as it stands, with a claim that the rest will magically fall into place naturally. Removing NPC demand for minerals will not make the Market self correct any more than nerfing Empire mining will. Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.11.13 02:31:00 - [105] Quote: You are correct - the Highways just made it spread like the most infectious and fastest moving virus ever seen. So, all the better for getting it fixed. NPC supply and demand is the least of a manufacturer's worries in the current Market. Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Cruise	Posted - 2003.11.13 02:37:00 - [106] Quote: Quote: That's the average price of the minerals actually sold in the region. On the NPC Market. Many PC-PC transactions take place w/o the aid of the screwed up Market. Major corporations are constantly purchasing minerals at above Market prices. The existence of a constant demand implies the absence of an "oversupply." NPC Mineral demand doesn't have much of anything to do with the problems facing the EVE Market right now. Players who want to make a decent profit from Minerals sell to other players, and those who want to buy in bulk buy from other players. NPC demand is simply a convenience for people trying to make a quick buck, and removing it will be nothing but that - an inconvenience. Manufacturing is tanked because everyone can produce their own items, not enough items are cycled out generating new demand, and too many people are selling identical items w/ not enough demand to cover all the sales. NPC Mineral demand is a non-issue. Lest we forget that, minus ships, implants, agent items, skills and perhaps cargo containers, there are very few ship-based/frequently used items someone cannot find via npc pirate kill drops. Not everyone's going to hunt down NPC's for items, but enough people do it that manufacturing bp-based items and selling them is fairly worthless. You can't cycle things out of the market to fix the market if it's easier to kill NPC rats and find them that way. ------------------------------------------- Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.13 02:37:00 - [107] Quote: Edited by: Luther Pendragon on 13/11/2003 00:09:34 Quote: What you're seeing are the results of an oversupply of minerals in the region. You say over-supply, I say weak-demand Demand from? More players (where?) Or Higher risk causing ship loss? (Hear screams?) or Wear and tear (So high that it causes demand for new items? I think not) Demand for items - many items, is very low for good reason, everybody makes their own, there is no market to sell these items, no demand. Blame BPCs and highways. Highways are a problem, not just a means to visualise a problem - look at plaeyr distribution and the eradication of regionalised markets (though the de-specificatio of NPC drone loot didnt help either) Bad moves on bad moves - compounded errors.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.13 02:41:00 - [108] Quote: How about make other activities more profitable? Whats so strange about that concept? You like championing the "free market" and "More profit" but did you just overlook the collapse of the Miner II market? You say i should pay more for mminerals but fail to explain why i want minerals to produce an item it costs me to sell...? Quick witicisms wont solve a thing...that one you can take to the bank.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.13 02:46:00 - [109] Quote: Currently it takes an average know nothing noob 2-3 weeks to get a cruiser. It takes the same noob 2-3 seconds to get it blown to **. And they go insurance? whats that?!?!? Resource collection is to slow even for a mmorpg, bounties and rewards are to low an way to little action because peeps are scared of loosing what they got. But put all that a side, you are talking about nerfing the base price of dirt! ***** dirt!!! Get off your ass and mine yourself if you donÆt wanna pay above npc prices. assinine - you expect people to take this and you seriously?
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.13 02:55:00 - [110] What doe sseem to escape people at times is that CCP are very aware that the market and economy is very broken atm - they know it is fubar'd beyond salvation probably... I just wonder why they dont do some radical surgery rather than hoping they cans tick a different tech 2 plaster on the wound and hope it heals itself. Luther - there is some hope that demand may come from an influx of players from tech 2 through to tech 3 and over xmas... even so their dissilusionment on discovering taht everybody else has everys ingle other bp already (or a copy of it) will no doubt have them rushing to call in their firends (/irony off). Wishful thinking will not solve this, nor Chucky-eggs wise*****s (squak - hypocrite morkt). Rip it all out I say. (though from teh looks of the storyline, stuterring though it is, they may be doing some motorway deconstruction already)

Chucky	Posted - 2003.11.13 03:00:00 - [111] Yes, get off your ass and mine yourself Quote: Quote: Currently it takes an average know nothing noob 2-3 weeks to get a cruiser. It takes the same noob 2-3 seconds to get it blown to **. And they go insurance? whats that?!?!? Resource collection is to slow even for a mmorpg, bounties and rewards are to low an way to little action because peeps are scared of loosing what they got. But put all that a side, you are talking about nerfing the base price of dirt! ***** dirt!!! Get off your ass and mine yourself if you donÆt wanna pay above npc prices. assinine - you expect people to take this and you seriously? ... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.13 03:04:00 - [112] Quote: Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 13/11/2003 02:35:50 Quote: You do not know what you're talking about here. If you say so. I've only been a member of a corporation whose sole activities include mining and manufacturing since my second day in game. I guess I'm clueless as to the reasons why we find it difficult to make a profit on items we manufacture and sell. NPC demand for minerals is the least of our worries. If you insist your corp is paying above NPC prices for minerals on the items it manufactures, either you or your corp is clueless. Which depends on whether or not your corp actually does pay above NPC prices for minerals. Quote: Once again you propose a sweeping monumental change to a system that needs many smaller fixes as it stands, with a claim that the rest will magically fall into place naturally. Removing NPC demand for minerals will not make the Market self correct any more than nerfing Empire mining will. Your sarcasm and ability to pay attention underwhelm me. I've made no such claim and have said, in reply to you directly, this isn't the sum solution but only a part. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.11.13 03:04:00 - [113] Quote: Lest we forget that, minus ships, implants, agent items, skills and perhaps cargo containers, there are very few ship-based/frequently used items someone cannot find via npc pirate kill drops. Not everyone's going to hunt down NPC's for items, but enough people do it that manufacturing bp-based items and selling them is fairly worthless. You can't cycle things out of the market to fix the market if it's easier to kill NPC rats and find them that way. Excellent point. The fact that the most coveted and oft-used modules are in fact not manufactured, but dropped as loot, is one of the real problems facing manufacturing corporations. My few cents: a) Increase the number of manufacturable items; more variety of items in demand means more manufacturers producing things people actually need. b) Decrease the number of available blueprints, and the ease of producing limitless copies of original blueprints. Fewer blueprints means fewer producers of each individual item and prices which are more easily controlled at a reasonable profit margin. c) Fix PvP and add content to 0.0 space to encourage more players to put their ships and items in harm's way - more ships destroyed and items lost means higher demand on regularly used items, as well as popular ships. d) Add other means of losing items, including degredation and module damage from certain kinds of attacks. e) Increase benefits received from Production skills, and new skills to allow players to focus more specifically on certain areas of production, such as weapons production, ship production, etc. f) Increase benefits gained from research skills, including the ability to research pirate loot and produce similar items based on the resulting (limited) blueprints. ... The list goes on and on of ways to improve manufacturing, and it would go on for hours before I got to "Remove NPC demand for minerals." Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.11.13 03:13:00 - [114] Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 13/11/2003 03:15:40 Quote: If you insist your corp is paying above NPC prices for minerals on the items it manufactures, either you or your corp is clueless. Which depends on whether or not your corp actually does pay above NPC prices for minerals. We mine what we use to produce the items we sell, and purchase Megacyte and Zydrine from other players. The NPC Market doesn't even enter into it. The problems facing us include the fact that demand for our high profit items, including high-end Cruisers, is too low to make it worth our time to mine the minerals; add to that the fact that most corporations already have original or multiple-run BP copies of our other items, and are better off mining their own minerals and making their own items as opposed to buying from us, and you see why the outlook for a manufacturing corporation such as ours is bleak. Where does NPC demand for minerals enter into it? It doesn't, except when one of our new members needs a little extra ISK and decides to sell some Pyerite to an NPC buy order so they can afford a new module or weapon outfit for their ships. Quote: I've made no such claim and have said, in reply to you directly, this isn't the sum solution but only a part. Yes, a very small part. An ineffectual part. A part that has more drawbacks than it does benefits. A part better ignored in favor of more beneficial changes that will actually turn the tide of the manufacturing side of the game. Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.13 03:18:00 - [115] Just saw this from Kalar Vrask Quote: EDIT:- Just to add a further thought on that, look at Techell. They pay 1.6 for trit, 5 for pyr, npc for everything else up to noxc and going rate for zyd/mega (ok, they have ***loads of mega ). If you're a serious manufacturer, you'll be very much aware that trit & pyr are the 2 minerals that you don't want to have to haul. You want those delivered to your doorstep & you'll pay a premium for having that done. Along with the rare minerals, these are the ones that you pay over the odds for, in either ISK or hauling time, to actually get them to your factory. Techell is a fluke that can't be counted in this for several reasons. First and most important reason would be the amount of damage balancing the economy according to their practices would cause. It'd be akin to balancing the world economy according to the net worth of someone like Bill Gates: fatal to everyone else. Another reason why Techell cannot be used is because of how they may be doing their books. Techell could be pricing their manufactured goods according to the price they paid for meg/zyd 2 months ago and their prices may not reflect the current market prices until they begin using the minerals they purchased today. Instead of those from their stockpile, especially given the unknown success of the Mega for Miners campaign. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Chucky	Posted - 2003.11.13 03:19:00 - [116] Actually I've never sold minerals below NPC price and never will. Noobs do it obviously , but lately there must not be enough noobs doing it. Hence this transparent thread to force players to sell at below NPC prices by eliminating NPC. NEWS FLASH, need minerals? Get your ass and mine them yourselves! And get off the highways only make the game faster to get to competitive merchants and good fights. ... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.13 03:36:00 - [117] Quote: Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 13/11/2003 03:15:40 Quote: If you insist your corp is paying above NPC prices for minerals on the items it manufactures, either you or your corp is clueless. Which depends on whether or not your corp actually does pay above NPC prices for minerals. We mine what we use to produce the items we sell, and purchase Megacyte and Zydrine from other players. The NPC Market doesn't even enter into it. Not off the hook anywhere near that easy. You make the claim: Quote: On the NPC Market. Many PC-PC transactions take place w/o the aid of the screwed up Market. Major corporations are constantly purchasing minerals at above Market prices. The existence of a constant demand implies the absence of an "oversupply." Now you've got to back it up. And you know well I'm not talking about buying trit @ 1.2 and pye @ 4.9 while paying 14.3 for mex and 231 for nocx. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.13 03:40:00 - [118] Edited by: Jash Illian on 13/11/2003 03:42:29 Quote: Actually I've never sold minerals below NPC price and never will. Noobs do it obviously , but lately there must not be enough noobs doing it. Hence this transparent thread to force players to sell at below NPC prices by eliminating NPC. NEWS FLASH, need minerals? Get your ass and mine them yourselves! And get off the highways only make the game faster to get to competitive merchants and good fights. Chucky, I hardly need to worry about buying minerals at NPC prices. I've long known about the ability to subsidize costs through recycling, where I can apply the market average price of the minerals in figuring the costs and shave isk off the front end. And essentially be paid to take the minerals, thanks to bounties. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.11.13 03:44:00 - [119] Quote: Actually I've never sold minerals below NPC price and never will. Noobs do it obviously , but lately there must not be enough noobs doing it. Hence this transparent thread to force players to sell at below NPC prices by eliminating NPC. NEWS FLASH, need minerals? Get your ass and mine them yourselves! And get off the highways only make the game faster to get to competitive merchants and good fights. Either you're a bot or you just like repeating yourself? Either way you still havent said anything with an actual point. NEWSFLASH - not everybody wants to or should have to mine themselves! NEWSFLASH - CCP designed the game for tiered manufacturing supporting distributed sections of the manufacturing process (miners and builders as distinct entities) NEWSFLASH - Above point continues to pass you by compeltely! NEWSFLSH - CHucky has 31 people set to Terrible standing...but only 5 to anything above 0.00 He is liked by 12 characters and disliked by 15. His corp are liked by Five stars, pulsar defence.... NEWSFLASH "Look at" is the coolest new feature out - damn this game looks good again! (I gave up caring about this thread you may notice due to distractions on chaos. go try "look at" its very cool but will no doubt gets lots of folks killed lol)
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.11.13 03:47:00 - [120] Quote: Now you've got to back it up. And you know well I'm not talking about buying trit @ 1.2 and pye @ 4.9 while paying 14.3 for mex and 231 for nocx. I don't have many specific numbers for you. As I said, personally I either mine for corporate production or sell in small amounts to NPC buy orders when I need a little extra ISK for modules or just a little wallet padding. My comments are based on watching the Market forum here, and the occasional times when I brave the Trade Channel. Someone is always purchasing large quantities of minerals, and most often at or above NPC prices. If NPC minerals are supplying so much production, why are these people still ordering minerals in such large quantities from other players? I concede that the removing NPC minerals from the Market sometime in the future might be wise, but right now it provides people with a source of income where other sources have dried up, and as far as I can tell isn't one of the larger problems affecting manufacturing. I picture EVE w/o NPC minerals, and it looks much like it does today. Corporations mining for their minerals, or buying in bulk from other players - but still a lack of variety in manufactured items, and too little demand to truly make it a rewarding profession for all but the most powerful manufacturers of battleships. Veruna Caseti Ishukone



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