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Javelin Assault Missiles graph

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Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:12:00 - [1] Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:33:00 - [2] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/11/2006 15:36:09 Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right? But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? What you seem to miss is that HAM javs are the longrange ammo of the caldari medium SHORT RANGE WEAPON SYSTEM. It's the equivalent to blasters, ACs and pulse lasers. With a 30k max range it will have WAY more effective range than med ACs and blasters with their longrange ammo and about the same range as heavy (= cruiser sized) pulse lasers. So "But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?" is in fact completely the opposite. "But every other ship is unable to defend itself at range using its chosen shortrange weapons system, unlike Caldari missile ships using shortrange missiles?" --------- Also, HAM javelins are not balanced vs the rocket and torp javelins either. Rocket jav range boost vs t1 rockets: +180% HAM jav range boost vs t1 HAMs: +560% Torp jav range boost vs t1 torps: +150% Spot the difference!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 16:03:00 - [3] Originally by: welsh wizard But Caldari ships are too slow and have no agility to properly use a high damage close range weapons system. Besides Javelins still get outdamaged by Blasters by a considerable margin. Do you seriously think an immobile ship with no tackling ability and a 30km weapons system is a good idea? It's quite simple, if CCP want to give us a high damage close range weapons system they need to give us a fast agile ship with which to use it. Actually armor tanking ships with a plate and caldari ships with an extender have very similar agility. And, to repeat myself: 30k (well, if HAM javs at about the same boost as rocket and torp javs a more realistic range would be 40k) is still WAY more than what other races get with their shortrange weapons. Do you seriously think giving a ships shortrange weapon system more range than other ships longrange weapon system is a good idea or in any way resembels balance? Quote: They also need to cater for the extra mids we require to fit a tank, mwd, web and scram. Can you see how this is becoming a bit of a problem? The only alternative is to have a weapons system that does the movement for you while maintaining respectable damage. There is no middle ground.... There is more to PvP than 1v1. Yes, shieldtanking ships will only be able to fit a weak tank if they fit tackling gear, too. But as advantage the can fit for FULL gank and FULL tank at the same time in groups where they have tacklers. Armortankers can fit tackling gear and still can be able to fit a moderate tank & moderate gank. But in groups they will never be able to fit a full tank & full gank, even if they fit not a single tackling module. Both tanking systems behave differently and have their own specific advantages and disadvantages and are pretty balanced vs each other. Shield tanking certainly does not need an boost from higher missile effeciency.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 21:08:00 - [4] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/11/2006 21:10:12 Originally by: Kelgen Thann Quote: Actually armor tanking ships with a plate and caldari ships with an extender have very similar agility. You forgot Signiture radius. Caldai ships have the largest signiture radius. This means other ships hit them the hardest. Other race ships take less damage, and shield Extenders Increase Signiture radius even further, meaning Caldari ships are tackled, locked fastest, and take harder hits from all weapon systems. Then Caldari have slow ships, low agility, high mass... And have the best locking range, the most effective EW system, the only EW battleship, the best sniper BS, the best NPCing BS, ... It's not like the general disadvantages of caldari are not balanced by advantages, too. Heavy assault missiles were introduced because missiles lacked a high dps, shortrange weapon system, an analogue to torps and rockets. But a weapon system which can do damage over 1-100 km is no shortrange weapon system. The whole point of one shortrange weapon system is that it exchanges an higher possible range for more dps. A system which can deal high dps with ammo A and achieve high range with ammo B eats the cake and keeps it, too. You cannot rationalize something like that is balanced. A 5-10% higher sig does not make an over 200% higher range over the weapon system with the next highest range (which would be heavy pulse lasers) balanced. A 30% higher one (which would be about 40k), perhaps.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:17:00 - [5] Originally by: welsh wizard It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. Try to grasp this: Why do you need to counter a (at worst) 20% slower speed a 200%+ longer range?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:01:00 - [6] Originally by: welsh wizard Jesus, if that isn't obvious forget it. The only "obvious" thing here is that you have no clue about any turret ship mechanics...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:23:00 - [7] Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 11:23:42 They got a slight one. About 5% less dps and range reduced to 60k. Drake got it's 7th launcher back, though, the the dps actually got increased somehwhat. One should note, though, that the graph is without drones and the drake has the smallst dronebay. 5 med on the brutic deal 60 more dps than 5 lights on the drake. The real problem is, though, that we have a frigging shortrange weapon which has longrange weapon range. Originally by: Jim McGregor No, the Drake has gotten an additional launcher since then. It now has 7 launchers and the graph shows the dps with 6. And the damage got reduced from 90 to 85 and range to 63k. An updated graph would be nice there.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 11:27:00 - [8] When you make a new graph please add an harbringer with 7 heavy pulse 2 and conflag to it so we have an comparsion to the shortrange weapon system with the next highest range.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin "If you want to launch long range attacks rather than engage in close quarters combat then this is the skill tree for you"-Player Guide: Fighting. If medium blasters and ACs want to get their max performance they need ranges of 5k. Rage HAM are effective to 10k. With longrange ammo ACs and blasters work with high effeciency to 15-20k. Jav HAM are effective to 60k. Long range does not mean that it's shortrange weapons have the same range as other races longrange weapons (and even IF this would be the case jav HAMs are also dealing a good deal more dps - how would you rationalize that?). It means that they have a reasonable higher range than other races with the same weapon system. For high damage ammo thats given, they have about twice as much range. For low damage ammo they have 3-4 times the range, though. Tahts not reasonable, thats rediculous.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 12:29:00 - [10] Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 12:35:30 Originally by: Jim McGregor I updated the graph and I still dont like what im seeing here... Uuups, sorry Jim, I gave you the wrong crystal, scortch, not conflag. I confused the short and longrange pulse laser crystals. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Could you try one where the myrmidon has it's 5 ogre II deployed One could argue that heavy drones are not exactly long range weapons, though. They owuld need 1 minute to get to the target at 60k - if it isn't moving. If it's at 500 m/s they will need 2 and if it's 1000 m/s or faster they will never reach it. Vs an immobile target both the drake with jav HAMs and a myr with 5 ogres 2 would have about the same dps, though, yes. But ogres have a considerably more serious drawbacks.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 13:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Jim McGregor Ok, fixed it. :) But why not use heavy beams? Then you have the range of the artillery ships, but crappy damage just like the rest of us. You have about 30 dps more than the artillery hurricane and the railgun brutix if you use those, but javelins still run us all over. Because it is IMO better to compare them with other shortrange weapon systems. Sure they are too strong vs the longrange weapons, but you also have to look at their performance vs other shortrange weapons, so they do not get too weak vs them. For example, the harbs weapons outdamage other races longrange eapons also, but only up to 30-35k. Javelin also now gets outranged by other races longrange weapons, but only in the very edge of their range. It still has a bit too much range. But if you compare it vs the harb it gets obvious that a 30k range for them - as some people suggested - would be too low. One of 40-45k seems decent to me, it gives it a reasonable range where it outdamages the harbringer and gives longrange weapons a decent window where they outdamage the javs.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 13:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Jim McGregor Otherwise, if Javelins went about 20k, it would be pretty fair. Such a graph would show javelins have good damage at 20k, and worst damage at 0k compared to autocannons/blasters. Seems balanced to me. And would get significantly outdamaged (and also outranged) by heavy pulses. The range where HAMs outdamage med ACs will then also be prolly very small, too (if it is even there at all). The drake still has it's tanking bonus, of cource, but it's IMO not THAT good to justify making the weapons subpar for any range.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.11.26 14:59:00 - [13] Edited by: Aramendel on 26/11/2006 15:03:19 Originally by: welsh wizard Are we discussing turret ships? We are discussing the balance of a missle system vs turret systems, so yes, we are discussing turret ships. Quote: Do you think that a missile ship that moves at approximately 50m/s, has no capacity to fit an mwd/web and has a maximum weapon range of 30km with an average - high damage payload balanced? 30k, no, at least if you compare it vs the harbringer. 40k - hell, yes, especially considering it has a tanking bonus. It will then still have the highest range of all shortrange weapons and any shortrnge weapon should be outranged by longrange weapons. And these ships with longrange weapons typically do not have the grid to fit MWDs, etc either without fitting upgrades. Nor can use webbers or scramblers at that range. Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Well HAM javelins are not exactly long range either, and as far as I know this thread is about keeping the "close" range weapons to be close range. So why not limit the range of the drones to 30km also if they are, as you say, a close range system?? And yet these graphs are as biased as they can possible be. Drones in general, no, that would be like limiting all missiles to the same range. I would have personally no problem with limiting lights to 60k, meds to 40k and heavies to 20k, though. (Although drone nav comps and in the case of the ishkur ship skills should be able to boost that.)

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