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Karilla Caliguax
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Posted - 2003.11.15 04:26:00 -
[1]
There is a way to kill people in 1.0 space and outrun CONCORD without ever getting so much as a dent to your shields.
This issue has been bugging me since early retail.. the question ofcourse is, is this an exploit yes or no?
I asked this question in #Eve-Chaos a while ago, and TomB said  Quote:
No security level of space is supposed to be 100% safe, not even 1.0
Now if it is an exploit, what are you supposed to do?Kill someone, turn of warp and MWD and wait for CONCORD to kill you?Does that cleanse you of the label 'exploiter' in the GM's eyes?
I really do wish CCP would release a clear and cut statement on issues like this.There are so many people who's corpse would look good in my hangar (Agent Shield.)
My 2 sixp'nce and half a crown.
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Ner'Zuel
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Posted - 2003.11.15 04:31:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ner'Zuel on 15/11/2003 04:34:21
Being a n00b in the game iŠm not sure. But i would think that it is ok to kill ppl in 1.0 space since you can.
You could fly a frigate with 4 launchers /w cruise missiles. But i dont know if concord owns you right after you launch them or if they do it after you hit the target.
(could allways place a small secure container next to a afk indy and then shoot the missiles at the can and hope that the splash dmg will kill the indy)
edit: spelling (not to good at english)
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Dirus
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Posted - 2003.11.15 04:36:00 -
[3]
you can attack and kill anyone anywhere in eve. its concord/sentries that you worry about. in empire space, sentries will open fire on you and do some hefty damage. if you survive for a while, concord will show up and chase you.
there are some bugs, but they are all being looked into.
**********
Everyone deserves to die.
You go first.
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2003.11.15 04:54:00 -
[4]
Depends on the method. If it involves preventing Concord from arriving (like the old -10.0 security status bug) then I'd say it's an exploit. If you're talking about the old "fire missiles and warp away before they hit" trick, I doubt it would be considered an exploit since people have known about it for months and no dev or GM has ever (to my knowledge) griped about it. I'd like to see it changed since I DO think it's a rather cheap tactic, but that's a different question.
PS: Everyone I know already knows that missiles don't count as an aggressive act until they actually hit, so I figure I'm not revealing any big secrets here. And if I am... hey, now the noobs know it too so they'll be ready for it. 
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Araviel
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Posted - 2003.11.15 05:39:00 -
[5]
if you got high security status (max) whitin concord you can attack people everywhere whitout getting fired upon from concord ships,
EPIC Recruitment post
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Captain Lugnut
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Posted - 2003.11.15 07:56:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Captain Lugnut on 15/11/2003 07:57:47
Killings ok anywhere you can evade the police or sentryguns, but seems mining isn't.... "OMG, it's a miner, run away"...
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.15 10:23:00 -
[7]
Quote:
If you're talking about the old "fire missiles and warp away before they hit" trick, I doubt it would be considered an exploit since people have known about it for months and no dev or GM has ever (to my knowledge) griped about it.
CCP declared officially some time ago that killing in 1.0 space would *always* be considered an exploit, because 1.0 space *is* intended to be 100% safe, guaranteed.
Not that it surprises me that TomB said exactly the opposite. The number of issues on which CCP flatly contradicts itself is staggering. JIP-camping, for instance; which is quite definitely an exploit, and, *at the same time*, quite definitely is not.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.15 11:10:00 -
[8]
Good post Ngarr. CCP's internal communications on issues like this definitely needs an overhaul. Too many cases of the left hand not knowing who the right hand is podkilling.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2003.11.15 11:12:00 -
[9]
Ok guys, here's another offical GM statement.
I asked a GM if it was an exploit to kill people in 1.0 and get away, and he said it would be if they got a lot of complaints.
So killing people in 1.0 is ok until you kill like 6-7+, and they petition.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.15 11:14:00 -
[10]
I always thought it went along these lines:
You can kill someone in 1.0 but if you manage to evade CONCORD it's an exploit?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.15 11:15:00 -
[11]
Quote:
I asked a GM if it was an exploit to kill people in 1.0 and get away, and he said it would be if they got a lot of complaints.
That's priceless. Then they wonder why the petition queue is swamped all the time.
"It's not illegal unless people complain."
Imagine if this is how it worked in real life. Murder would always be the perfect crime. "Sorry, sir, there's really nothing we can do unless the victims file at least 5 complaints."
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Syme
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Posted - 2003.11.15 11:20:00 -
[12]
I have mixed feelings about this. The carebear in me says that it should not be possible to kill someone in 1.0 space without detruction of your own ship.
However last night a corpmate blew up an ore thief's ship in 1.0 and survived the CONCORD response. I can only say that I was glad and that this has changed my opinion. But I still believe that n00b killing must be stamped on with the full weight of the Atlas mountains.
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Rizzy
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Posted - 2003.11.15 11:22:00 -
[13]
Erm......just wanna say...why go to noob space to kill someone, you can come to 0.0 and kill me or anyone else here, or do you only want to engage on noobs coz you know you can win ?
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.11.15 11:59:00 -
[14]
I think the intention is that if you can do it and get away with it its ok.
The problem however has been that the game had so many unforseen glitches that were abused by players (ex the sec -10 glitch) that killing in 1.0 has become a touchy subjet.
I would for now, nomatter how legal your move is put that on the backburner untill the devs say they have fixed the problems.
Also, if you spot a newbie doing somthing stupid, give them a chance to get away, it will help the game population grow and as its a newbie infront of your guns you wont get too much value out of blowing him/her up anyways.
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Lliad
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Posted - 2003.11.15 12:44:00 -
[15]
You can kill ppl in 1.0 space. However if you avoid or survive the concord response in any way, you have exploited.
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Woetra
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Posted - 2003.11.15 12:49:00 -
[16]
Who said you need to outrun concord...?
just insure your kestral and you loose about 10k worth of equipment...
works for me tbh
Sig Thief
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Lliad
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Posted - 2003.11.15 14:04:00 -
[17]
Then what Viceroy said will happen. People will complain and you will still get a warning.
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Homo Erectus
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Posted - 2003.11.15 14:27:00 -
[18]
giving warnigns because people complain about something is stupid. i do not doubt the GM's follow that trend. |
ga'ia
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Posted - 2003.11.15 14:46:00 -
[19]
Ofcourse one can kill in 1.0 sec sys, just need alot of fast dealing firepower, but if you do..expect CONCORD coming to get you... Imo...if one attack someone else which they arent in war with(/or other exception), they shouldnŠt be allowed to dock, nor jump till CONCORD got em  .
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.15 15:07:00 -
[20]
Quote:
I think the intention is that if you can do it and get away with it its ok.
They used to say that (I think they said it to Molly, among others) because they were confident that nobody COULD get away with it. They were wrong; they beefed up Concord enormously, and they were still wrong; they threw out tech.3 sentry guns, and they were STILL wrong. So now they just say you're not allowed to kill people in 1.0 space.
Or at least, some of them do. It's not like CCP just has one opinion on a subject.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
wamingo
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Posted - 2003.11.15 15:16:00 -
[21]
First of all, why on earth isn't it just an offense to launch a weapon? If you swing a fist at someone and miss it's still an offense...
Fire an fof missile? too bad for you, you're gonna die. Perhaps make missiles lose their lock if you warp away, too...
Also we NEED a recharge time for the warp imo, eg 10 seconds after warp-in, enough time for concord to warp in (and people already there) and to scramble the hell outta you... No more warp-warp-warp-warp repeat till you're safe bull... Your means against this should be anti-scrambler mods, and concord in 1.0 should have invinsible warp-scramble ability and 0.8 and above should perhaps be "possible" with super mods but "chance" says that you won't (failed anti-scramle)...
as for mwd, concord could just be able to keep up with you or warp in more troops at your vector... actually, just remove mwd completely... lame mod anyway... or make only 1 fitable, or make the bloody mass be involved in how fast you can go, so no more 20km/sec...
and increase the logout-time in space to 5 mins, that oughta do the trick...
anything else?
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Molly
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Posted - 2003.11.15 15:18:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Molly on 15/11/2003 15:20:14
Fact: I have been warned for surviving CONCORD (jumping away, being targetjammed) in 1.0.
Fact: GM and Polaris told me, that one is not suppose to survive any act of agression in 1.0 and that doing so is an exploit.
Conclusion: You are allowed to attack in 1.0, but you have to lose your ship after doing so.
EOD (for me).
--
Kasha > Mastema, face the reality: All the juicy dots are gone.
-- |
Lliad
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Posted - 2003.11.15 15:25:00 -
[23]
Just to clarify.
I was told the same thing as molly.
So really you have to loss you ship if you attack them.
But i think if you continue doing it and just loose the figate as soon as they get a few moans form carebares they will give you a warning.
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wamingo
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Posted - 2003.11.15 15:51:00 -
[24]
Edited by: wamingo on 15/11/2003 15:53:30
nevermind this post...
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Fred0
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Posted - 2003.11.15 16:50:00 -
[25]
Wamingo wrote:
First of all, why on earth isn't it just an offense to launch a weapon? If you swing a fist at someone and miss it's still an offense...
Really?
IMO 100% safe is not a good idea. Already 1.0 space is contains people who take no responsibility for their actions. If you can talk as much smack and behave as lame as you want without others being able to kill you something is wrong imho.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.15 17:52:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Edited by: Molly on 15/11/2003 15:20:14
Fact: I have been warned for surviving CONCORD (jumping away, being targetjammed) in 1.0.
Fact: GM and Polaris told me, that one is not suppose to survive any act of agression in 1.0 and that doing so is an exploit.
Conclusion: You are allowed to attack in 1.0, but you have to lose your ship after doing so.
Makes sense; but even that position won't hold against people who make suicide alts in kestrels - or even, just pop themselves in a kestrel - because losing one crappy frigate and a few missiles isn't doing them any damage to speak of. So I suspect even that will go by the boards in time. I really don't understand why they didn't just auto-disable all weapons in 1.0 space; if launching an attack carried an absolute certain guarantee of death, no character would ever do so, so there's no point giving them the opportunity.
(Note: I said no *character*, not no player. This is an RPG, after all - no player would ever thump someone IRL if to do so guaranteed their instant death, and to the character, the Eve universe IS irl.)
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Lysithea
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Posted - 2003.11.15 17:58:00 -
[27]
Quote:
CCP declared officially some time ago that killing in 1.0 space would *always* be considered an exploit, because 1.0 space *is* intended to be 100% safe, guaranteed.
That can't be. Until Concord throws themselves in front of missiles or gunfire, killing people in 1.0 space should be allowed. In most cases it may be a suicide mission as Concord and/or sentries catch up with their target, but that's the way it is.
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wamingo
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Posted - 2003.11.15 18:01:00 -
[28]
Fred0 there is plenty of space where you have plenty of opportunity to smack back with other than harsh language... and frankly if you can't take the heat - ignore it, or leave.
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.15 18:58:00 -
[29]
If 1.0 space was intended to be 100% Absolutely Inviolate...
Why bother letting people fire weapons there if they're not in a war?
It'd be something a Developer would have to state clearly. Not a GM interpretting via his personal furcovered feelings. And damn sure not a Polaris. There are logic errors there.
Why have the ability to attack unprovoked in 1.0 space if you're not meant to be able to do it?
Why expect someone not to try to get away from Concord after committing a crime? Why expect them to sit there and die?
Definately the realm of Official Word Directly From A Developer. It's too stupid and illogical not to believe that the GM is misinterpretting something.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
igli
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Posted - 2003.11.15 20:04:00 -
[30]
Edited by: igli on 15/11/2003 20:06:16
...
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Silinary
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Posted - 2003.11.15 21:38:00 -
[31]
Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think so ... either it works sometimes, or they fixed this. Launching missiles calls the attention of concord.
I was in a Kestrel in Yulai or some such and e had a guy named borg assimilator hanging around targeting people cause he wanted to loot their ship when they fire. Well, I thought with missiles, it didn't count till they hit ... wasn't true. As soon as I launched my missiles concord destroyed my frigate, and then shot down the missiles ... was rather impressive.
You can do anything you set your mind to. |
dethnel
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Posted - 2003.11.15 23:35:00 -
[32]
correct me if i am wrong silinary, but did you fire your missiles while targeting borg? in that case concord should respond immediately.
however launching a volley of missiles at a can or object nearby your target in 1.0 does not get immediate concord response and is just as deadly from splash damage.
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Lliad
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Posted - 2003.11.15 23:49:00 -
[33]
Nope you can lock them and shoot. You just use a passive targeter to get the lock.
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Slinky Redfoot
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Posted - 2003.11.16 00:32:00 -
[34]
Quote:
First of all, why on earth isn't it just an offense to launch a weapon? If you swing a fist at someone and miss it's still an offense...
Fire an fof missile? too bad for you, you're gonna die. Perhaps make missiles lose their lock if you warp away, too...
Already works that way.the second your missle leaves the launcher, you take a sec hit and CONCORD will come.If you warp out before the missles make contact, they go off-course.
Got Banana? |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.16 02:37:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Quote:
CCP declared officially some time ago that killing in 1.0 space would *always* be considered an exploit, because 1.0 space *is* intended to be 100% safe, guaranteed.
That can't be.
But it is. *shrug*
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.16 08:56:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Already 1.0 space is contains people who take no responsibility for their actions. If you can talk as much smack and behave as lame as you want without others being able to kill you something is wrong imho.
Why? Who cares about people who relegate themselves to 1.0 space. Let them mine Veldspar and talk to the newbies while you go enjoy the rest of the game where more interesting things happen.
The notion that killing needs to be possible everywhere is a fallacy - safe zones, if implemented properly, are a perfectly valid part of a PvP game. If you never leave 1.0 you will always be totally safe, but you will also never accomplish much of anything worth paying $12 a month for. So leave it up to players to decide. Never risk death and never actually make anything of yourself in the game, or get out of 1.0 and do something with your life.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Fred0
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Posted - 2003.11.16 11:04:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Fred0 on 16/11/2003 11:22:53
As you understand veruna. I beg to differ. Mostly for the very reason i outlined above. I think it's paramount that you can't hide and be 100% safe in space. If people invest time and effort to get you for some reason they should be able to.
Edit to clarify: As long as there is interaction, there will be people annoying each other leading to, in the end, the need to sort things with the gun. That's how MMORPG's work imho. Only way to make 1.0 space 100% secure would be to make those areas single player. I.e you only see your own ship and no local chat etc.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.16 11:07:00 -
[38]
Quote:
As you understand veruna. I beg to differ. Mostly for the very reason i outlined above. I think it's paramount that you can't hide and be 100% safe in space. If people invest time and effort to get you for some reason they should be able to.
Anyone spends their whole life in 1.0 space, they won't ever do anything to *give* you a reason to go kill them.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Fred0
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Posted - 2003.11.16 11:13:00 -
[39]
Quote:
Anyone spends their whole life in 1.0 space, they won't ever do anything to *give* you a reason to go kill them.
Depending on what you mean by reason. Stealing Ore would be a good reason imho.
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DarkRoad
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Posted - 2003.11.16 11:35:00 -
[40]
So what you are all talking about is that I can fire missles at a person in 1.0 space and befor they hit I can warp to a planet, log off, and not lose my ship?
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.16 14:16:00 -
[41]
Quote:
Quote:
Anyone spends their whole life in 1.0 space, they won't ever do anything to *give* you a reason to go kill them.
Depending on what you mean by reason. Stealing Ore would be a good reason imho.
Sorry, anyone fool enough to use a standard container instead of a secure one deserves to have the ore stolen in my book. And anyone using a garbage can because it holds 27,000m3 at a time, well, the ore doesn't even belong to them, so it can't be stolen at all.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Tinwhistle
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Posted - 2003.11.16 16:25:00 -
[42]
Ok, this IS an interesting thread. I did some testing a while ago in regards to the game mechanics involved, so I can present you with some facts. The interpretation of course is a completely different matter.
Test environment: an unnamed 0.7 sec system in Caldari space. A single Kestrel with 3 afterburners, 2 basic overdrives and 4 M-12 launchers, armed with various cruise missiles. Reaches a speed of about 1100 m/s with some time to accelerate. I never use alts for any reason, so it was with this character here with quite high skill levels.
Test subject: a volunteer miner in a Condor who was paid handsomely for his services.
Test results:
1.) Firing missiles at an asteroid field results in immediate security drop and warning. CONCORD took between 5 and 10 seconds to appear though, while the missile was still underway. They did not shoot down the missile. Using the afterburners, it was no problem outrunning CONCORD, even while I was in a stasis web. I warped away with 75% shields after the single Bloodclaw missile that I fired hit. Had I used cruise missiles, the subject would be dead without much of a chance to warp away.
I returned about 3 minutes later and CONCORD was gone. Could dock at a station in system without restribution.
2.) Firing missiles at a gate results in an immediate response by the sentry guns. Even if you stay out of their range, as soon as your missiles enter sentry gun range they are shot down. There was no response by CONCORD ships though.
3.) Changing the environment to a 0.3 sec system in the same area. I did not expect a CONCORD response there. The target was not a player this time, but a small fleet of CONCORD ships at a gate. 5 ships, plus one battleship.
Firing a missile at the battleship resulted in the missile being shot down by the sentry guns immediately, as expected. The battleship "CONCORD police commander") came after me though, leaving his comrades behind. Not even using afterburners, because those ships are so slow, I could lure it out of sentry gun range without any problems. Staying far enough away so that it could not even scratch me, I was able to take out the battleship in a Kestrel without taking a single point of damage. Granted, it took me a whole bunch of cruise missiles, but it was possible.
And don't even think about the loot - they do not drop any. 
The point being this: CONCORD in high sec space is a joke, even if you do not use any special equipment (like a passive targeter).
Even if the ship was lost, with the current (flawed) insurance I get paid more than I need to produce the ship and the equipment as an insurance payout (including the original insurance fee) even if I get killed. This is absolutely unacceptable, in my humble opinion.
I for one think this opens up interesting opportunities for my character. Then again, I have enough morale (as a player as well as "in character") not to go on a killing spree against newbies.
So I am still undecided wether it is a good thing or not. Observing the game right now, I would think that high sec space is "reasonably safe". I rarely hear any complaint - and had none about my own character yet.
Proudly flying the white skull on black!
Tinwhistle of the Caribbean League |
Fred0
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Posted - 2003.11.16 18:39:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Fred0 on 16/11/2003 18:41:44
Quote:
Sorry, anyone fool enough to use a standard container instead of a secure one deserves to have the ore stolen in my book. And anyone using a garbage can because it holds 27,000m3 at a time, well, the ore doesn't even belong to them, so it can't be stolen at all.
Guess what. I agree. I think ore thieves are a nice addition to this game. But that's not the point. The point is this: If I choose to mine in a standard container and someone steals my ore, I would still want to be able to kill that character.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.16 20:08:00 -
[44]
Quote:
[Guess what. I agree. I think ore thieves are a nice addition to this game. But that's not the point. The point is this: If I choose to mine in a standard container and someone steals my ore, I would still want to be able to kill that character.
Tough. IRL I'd like to shoot people for being goddam stupid - and believe me, a LOT of people are goddam stupid - but it's not allowed.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Fred0
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Posted - 2003.11.16 21:07:00 -
[45]
Quote:
Tough. IRL I'd like to shoot people for being goddam stupid - and believe me, a LOT of people are goddam stupid - but it's not allowed.
Crap analogy. No argument. I know it's not allowed, that's not the point either. Scroll up - read up.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.17 03:41:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Quote:
Tough. IRL I'd like to shoot people for being goddam stupid - and believe me, a LOT of people are goddam stupid - but it's not allowed.
Crap analogy. No argument. I know it's not allowed, that's not the point either. Scroll up - read up.
I scrolled up, I read up, your post still says you want to be able to kill ppl in 1.0 space. The answer is still "tough."
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
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