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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 01/12/2006 10:47:45
I'm wondering, CCP if Revelations brought what you expected.
Because, if it is, I think you and your players have a serious communication problem. I'll admit Kali has a few (very few) good things, let me point out the problems and bad things it brought...
1) Tanking. During the last several patches you have improved tanking bit by bit until today, we have reached the point where you cannot kill a ship of your own size within a reasonable timeframe. In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox. I'm inclined to say you finally fixed instapop in fleets, but is the cost of the death of all other forms of PvP worth it?
FIX: Undo ALL hitpoint changes.
1a) Nos. Due to (1) Nosferatu's are the only way to defeat someone. This very fact, puts extreme pressure on ships that need cap to function and greatly boosts passive tanking whereas it already has gotten too good thanks to the changes to extenders and stuff a few builds ago.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
To make things worse, all of this *has been pointed out to you* in the Revelations testing, but you chose to ignore it and go live on TQ anyway.
2) Scanprobes. It used to involve skill finding someone; especially mission runners. While the whole 1au-plane thing has always been dumb, there was something other than skillpoints involved. Today, everything can be found in minutes and the new launchers isn't even on the market.
FIX: Get your old system back and just fix the plane thing so that probes scan the actual globe and not just a disc.
3) Contracts. Seriously, what are you thinking. I admit it's a nice tool for corps and player-drives missions, but it kills BPC trading, kills window shopping (The great strength of Escrow) and the silly regional search thing will make Jita explode. I was 346th in queue last night. How bad does it have to be before you realize regional systems SUCK because players will ALWAYS flock to the best market. I refer to your old Yulai problem that you "fixed" with Cold War. I think it failed, no?
FIX: return escrow and make it exist together with the contract system.
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
 Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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dan santhums
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:52:00 -
[2]
remove nos from the game? seriosly put down the pipe
Curse and pilgrims? plus the various faction nos ships become useless.I suppose we could change the bonus to a Cap reduction 1 
You do have some valid points in there, I just dont think the solution is a roll back to how it was
Give it a month or so, and im sure we'll all adapt to the changes
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Sun Ra
Godspeed You Black Emperor
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:52:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
WTF CCP???
Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas' |
Lorn Yeager
Gallente
Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:53:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Lorn Yeager on 01/12/2006 10:55:51
Edited by: Lorn Yeager on 01/12/2006 10:53:55
FIX: Undo ALL hitpoint changes.
Do you understand the reasons for the increase? its exactly to PROLONG combat.
So its quite fine that your ganksquad cant kill people in the blink of an eye.
But its still doable. Yesterday I killed a ferrox - solo - in a thorax.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
Why? Its a weapon like anything else. Problem with nos is more due to not being hit by tracking or stacking.
FIX: return escrow and make it exist together with the contract system.
No. Its just that simple. But no.
Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager
Blessed Souls
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Davlos
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:01:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Davlos on 01/12/2006 11:03:50
/signed
My corp has been specialising in small-gang combat, and hit and run. This change has obliterated the way we have been fighting, and proves that the unprofessional developer that Tuxford* is panders to brainless outfits like Goons or RA.
*: Proof - usage of the word "bullsh!t" in dev forum posts, and derision of players. I've worked with unprofessional devs in my time of a playtester, but this takes the cake.
---------------
Davlos Cain
040 |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
1) Tanking. During the last several patches you have improved tanking bit by bit until today, we have reached the point where you cannot kill a ship of your own size within a reasonable timeframe. In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox. I'm inclined to say you finally fixed instapop in fleets, but is the cost of the death of all other forms of PvP worth it?
FIX: Undo ALL hitpoint changes.
1a) Nos. Due to (1) Nosferatu's are the only way to defeat someone. This very fact, puts extreme pressure on ships that need cap to function and greatly boosts passive tanking whereas it already has gotten too good thanks to the changes to extenders and stuff a few builds ago.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
Um ... I understand. You were all shooting that Ferox with its *passive* tank using explosive missiles/ammo, then you started nossing it, wondering why it was so hard to kill. :)
*shakes head*
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 01/12/2006 10:47:45
I'm wondering, CCP if Revelations brought what you expected.
Because, if it is, I think you and your players have a serious communication problem. I'll admit Kali has a few (very few) good things, let me point out the problems and bad things it brought...
1) Tanking. During the last several patches you have improved tanking bit by bit until today, we have reached the point where you cannot kill a ship of your own size within a reasonable timeframe. In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox. I'm inclined to say you finally fixed instapop in fleets, but is the cost of the death of all other forms of PvP worth it?
FIX: Undo ALL hitpoint changes.
Small battles actually last long enough for tactics greater than "xxx is primary, spread ecm wide" to exist?
Ships can actually survive long enough for re-inforcements to arrive, meaning that having a mobile reserve is worth while?
ohnoes.
Quote:
1a) Nos. Due to (1) Nosferatu's are the only way to defeat someone. This very fact, puts extreme pressure on ships that need cap to function and greatly boosts passive tanking whereas it already has gotten too good thanks to the changes to extenders and stuff a few builds ago.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
The one point i (sorta) agree with. I would be a happy man if nos was removed and neuts were given a wee boost.Lets hope that the (far less radical) proposed stacking nerf/minimum cap immunity for nos goes through
Quote:
2) Scanprobes. It used to involve skill finding someone; especially mission runners. While the whole 1au-plane thing has always been dumb, there was something other than skillpoints involved. Today, everything can be found in minutes and the new launchers isn't even on the market.
More fighting and less hiding sounds good to me.
Quote:
3) Contracts. Seriously, what are you thinking. I admit it's a nice tool for corps and player-drives missions, but it kills BPC trading, kills window shopping (The great strength of Escrow) and the silly regional search thing will make Jita explode. I was 346th in queue last night. How bad does it have to be before you realize regional systems SUCK because players will ALWAYS flock to the best market. I refer to your old Yulai problem that you "fixed" with Cold War. I think it failed, no?
I like the new contract system, but you are right about the annoying effect it is having regarding Jita. Im sure the annoyance factor will soon encourage a boost to alternate trade hubs
Quote:
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
Actually, i am fully capable of forming a fleet and assigning myself as a squadron commander in said fleet. Given that i only have leadership 4 and that testing has showed the bonus from this IS applied to myself (even when solo in the fleet  ) and squadron members i would have to question if you bothered to test this at all or just ran around screaming 'teh sky is falling'
________________
What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lorn Yeager
Do you understand the reasons for the increase? its exactly to PROLONG combat.
So its quite fine that your ganksquad cant kill people in the blink of an eye.
QFT. The rest of the changes were made to PROLONG training times (can you say "time sink skills"?).
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:10:00 -
[9]
The indicator for group bonus effect doesn't really work. It is as shaky as the good old revamped online indicator from people&places.
--*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing.
by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
arjun
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:11:00 -
[10]
what concerns me deeply is, that 90% of the opinions stated in the gang-change related threads were against the changes in the current form. they were introduced anyway. wake up. not you the devs know what works but we the players do. i personaly find that a little rich against such a huge majority.
solution staded manyfold in the related threads ansd here again: let the gangleader asign 4 people to give boni to the gang. let those 4 people choose their own successor for case of game crash or ship loss.
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Sun Ra
Godspeed You Black Emperor
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot
Quote:
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
Actually, i am fully capable of forming a fleet and assigning myself as a squadron commander in said fleet. Given that i only have leadership 4 and that testing has showed the bonus from this IS applied to myself (even when solo in the fleet ) and squadron members i would have to question if you bothered to test this at all or just ran around screaming 'teh sky is falling'
thank f*ck for that
Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas' |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:13:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 01/12/2006 11:14:56
*edit: darn i'm slow  * Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
ehm, you don't need wing commander lvl 5 to start a fleet(to create a fleet right-click the gang window header -> 'convert to fleet'). The Wing Commander/fleet commander/squad commander skills are there to enable the gang bonus effect for the person in that position (and I believe to enable multiple wings and squads, but you start with 1 fleet with 1 wing with 1 squad). You have leadership 5? you can be squad leader and everyone in your squad gets your gang bonuses.
Crystal-Slave, that way?
Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
Ishana
Minmatar
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:15:00 -
[13]
PPFFF
people saying that longer combat means more time for tactics aren't used to PVP. Really if you pvp allot, you know hat is the best tactic and you will use it from the get go. What you have now is orbit/aproach/fly manually around a target, and activate all your modules and wait.... and wait.... and wait... and wait... untill your target, or you, blows up.
on the other hand I do have more time to clean my house and watch tv....
Also the great thing that combat used to bring is now gone... the adrenaline rush...
_________________________________________________________
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Flitz Farseeker
Gallente
Eve guardians
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:16:00 -
[14]
1) Maybe look at Ferox's passive tank rather than undoing all changes.
1a) Maybe look at NOS effectiveness rather than removing them from the game.
2) Never got to grips with the old system, not any closer with new system so can't comment on this one. 
3) Agree that it needs some improvements to support some of the old escrow features, not a reversion to the old system.
4) If this is the case, then it does need looking at. However, your skills and ship are only 'worthless' until you train up the new skill. If you already have 2.5 miil in leadership alone, it shouldn't take you too long.
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Di Jiensai
Gallente
Myster0ns
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
Not true. I converted our 4 man gang to fleet yesterday, and i have Leadership 3 and nothing much else except skirmish warfare 2 and armored warfare 2.
---
The Story of the Big-Bad-Nos-Domi and the Brutix
Selfproclaimed last instance on Rightousness Issues |
Jeanpierre Duvall
Caldari
Spectral Armada
Eternal Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:17:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jeanpierre Duvall on 01/12/2006 11:21:41
I will only reply to the Contracts thing. And this is what I would like to see in it.
First make items searchable by groups. If I want to know what kind of True sansha mods are out there Then let me search for true sansha and not the title that is "nothing" or TS Med Nos. And please make it sortable by name. I couldn't find how to sort it but that might just be me too.
It would also be good to be able to brows by type. Like BP's, Ships or Mods. Or just Select or remove some of the types from the list. not everyone wants to look at BPC's and some only look for BPC's.
Personaly I find the contracts system much better then the Escrow and really look forward to it. But it needs a bit of spit and polish.
My two pieces of eight.
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ishana
Also the great thing that combat used to bring is now gone... the adrenaline rush...
Time to start flying faction navy BS into pvp?
________________
What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete |
Dupac
Infinity Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
SNIP
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
This is wrong -
small gang with bonuses
A creates gang - invites B
A right clicks on gang window and "converts to fleet"
A right clicks on own name and "demotes" to squad leader (there will only be one squad by default and B will already be in it as a member)
A and B now receive any gang bonus that A provides - you don't need leadership 5 |
slothe
Caldari
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:27:00 -
[19]
i think its to early to criticise anything (even if its obviously wrong) yet. we need to give kali more time. theres been a lot of changes going into this, lets see how it pans out.
its like players complaining about overpriced new ships -they will get cheaper, the difficulty with componants for rigs- they will get easier.
more than i have ever seen in the forums the sky truly is falling.
Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar |
Mathias Orsen
Gold-dust
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox.
That has got to be a joke, If not then you should consider playing First person shooters with "headshot".
--------------------------------------
---"What's in your wallet?"---
"There are two kinds of respect, fear and admiration.... I'll take what I can get" |
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:41:00 -
[21]
It's early doors yet but I totally agree with you on the scan probe business Shayla. It used to be a skillful art, practice and patience paid off with faster scan results. Bring back the old method and the system scanner mini map!!
As for the hitpoint increases in some ways I'm liking it, it feels a bit more epic now and battleships take plenty of punishment as you'd expect them to. I think this needs more testing especially in large fleets before we pass judgement.
The gang system is ridiculous, its like learning a new complex part of the game all over again. You don't actually need fleet commander V to start a fleet though, only to get the bonuses (I think). We kind of started a fleet with wing and squad commanders last night :/
I have to say I prefer the new contract thing though, its shiny!
Originally by: anonymous
If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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KowPatt
Caldari
45th TIGERS
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:42:00 -
[22]
Well i think the new patch is good, and that contracts is a good alternative to escrow, apart from the above fore-mentioned window shopping. Remove nos from the game? no, why? And also, you cant insta pop a ferox, even while nossing its passive take (erm, huh?) But now the pop-ee has a chance, give them a break, you cant go round pwning everyone anymore, more challange, its got to be good... or more balanced... i think give it some time, will become normal.
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45th Tigers
New Zealand Corp
www.45thtigers.com |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:46:00 -
[23]
On the gang thing; when I tried to convert my gang to a fleet last wednesday I was told I couldn't do that because I needed to have skill such and such trained.
Dunno what I did wrong then.
Anyway, there's prolonging combat and dragging combat out. The single fact it takes five fully 30+mil skillpoint pilots in various t2 kitted BS and HAC's 45 seconds to kill a t1 shield extender fitted Ferox is completely wrong. Now try the same thing in a Brutix vs that Ferox and watch how you die when your cap charges run out.
Anyone saying otherwise has never PvP'd. Really.
As for the scanprobes, I shoot people. I like having people to shoot. I don't like finding mission runners in 2 minutes with NO skill involved. It's exactly like Ishana says.
Drop probe (requiring IG skills), warp to target.
Approach/Orbit (whatever your setup is made to do), activate Nos/no-cap weapons and wait until target dies.
Yeah really exciting. Combat used to give thi big adrenalin rush. You had to do it right the first time around of you'd die. Flying closerange setups took skill. Use manual appraoch, deactivate MWD at the right time and keep transversal low.
Now you have ample time to correct mistakes since it takes ages to die and you have to wait until either combatant has run out of cap. Where is the exciting part here cause I haven't had any exciting fight in Kali so far.
And neither did I have them on Sisi in the testing phase.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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Duncan Storne
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:48:00 -
[24]
Most of your comments are unreasonable, but you have a point about contracts. The new system has potential, but right now it is extremely awkward and user-unfriendly. It needs to be global and it needs to have multiple filtering, sorting, and searching options.
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:55:00 -
[25]
For the people not sure about the whole 'fleet' thing.
There are 6 positions within a fleet
Boss
Fleet Commander
Wing Commander
Squad Commander
Squad Member
Scout
Boss
The same as the gang leader of old. The boss is responsible for inviting people into the fleet and assigning them their positions. The boss does not have to be a fleet commander and in fact no skills are required to be the 'boss'.
If the boss disconnects anyone can claim the boss position.
Fleet Commander
Anyone can be assigned to the fleet commander position, but without the relevant skills full functionality for that position will not be activated.
With the correct skills the Fleet Commanders leadership bonuses will filter down to the wings/squadrons beneath him.
Wing commander
Same as the fleet commander, but on a smaller scale.With the relevant skills his leadership bonuses will filter down to the squads within his wing.
Squad Commander
Same as the fleet commander but his leadership skills only effect people in his squad
Squad Member
Cannon fodder to you and me 
Scout
This role can be assigned to anyone in a squad. Im not sure what it actually does as i havent had time to test it.
Initial testing seems to show that being able to warp around the people in your fleet/wing/squad is not skill dependent.Also the sub-chat windows for the fleet (wing/squad) will only appear with a properly skilled person in charge of that wing/squad.
By initial testing I mean 'one of my corpies has been playing with it and told me about these last two things' so read into that as you will
________________
What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete |
Kazaam
Section XIII
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
1a) Nos. Due to (1) Nosferatu's are the only way to defeat someone. This very fact, puts extreme pressure on ships that need cap to function and greatly boosts passive tanking whereas it already has gotten too good thanks to the changes to extenders and stuff a few builds ago.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
Fix : Set Nos modules to NOT leech anything more under 10-15% cap of the target.
_________________________________________
Originally by: Oveur
EVE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEAAATHHH !!
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Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Anyway, there's prolonging combat and dragging combat out. The single fact it takes five fully 30+mil skillpoint pilots in various t2 kitted BS and HAC's 45 seconds to kill a t1 shield extender fitted Ferox is completely wrong. Now try the same thing in a Brutix vs that Ferox and watch how you die when your cap charges run out.
Maybe mix some EM damage in there? Passive shields don't do so great vs EM.
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Johnny Bravo
Gallente
Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:41:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Johnny Bravo on 01/12/2006 13:42:34
I think CCP did right job on all changes except gang and scan modules. NOS is fine as is, hit point boost was needed, and i could even say they could add more hitpoints than smallish 25% increase. ECM nerf was much needed (allthought other form of EW still need boost, escpeceally TP's). But gang leadership bonuses distributing wasnt done, and new scan system is fubar for low-sec mission runners and any other activity what requires SS hiding.
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Ishana
Minmatar
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:41:00 -
[29]
I was there and I was firing 4 EM torps up his bum with my phoon and using 5 heavy EM drones. Is that enough EM damage for you?
_________________________________________________________
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
1) Tanking. During the last several patches you have improved tanking bit by bit until today, we have reached the point where you cannot kill a ship of your own size within a reasonable timeframe. In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox. I'm inclined to say you finally fixed instapop in fleets, but is the cost of the death of all other forms of PvP worth it?
I and many others dont see this as a problem.
Some of your other points were good though. Especially the one about contracts making Jita even more crowded.
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Micheal Cassio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:47:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Micheal Cassio on 01/12/2006 15:47:59
I just don't see why they wanted to prolong battles with this hp increase, they say they did it for fleet battles so that people wouldnt insta pop. Well, thats only one aspect of the game...
Like someone else said earlier, the hp boost makes the fights not nearly as exciting, great we have time to use more tactics, but really its mostly just orbit, F1-F8, blah blah blah... wait for someone to die... the fighting has really lost the rush ...
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Nhi'Khuna
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:41:00 -
[32]
Awww didums, is someone grumbly cause you lost your way in all the changes? ;)
Seriously dude, Kali was a big change for CCP to bring in. A change for the better. Ships of that size shouldn't go down in under 15 seconds. This allows people to actually think about what kind of developments are coming about in a combat. You can actually use movement and tactics to your advantage now.
But then, there are always people who will bemoan about whatever happened to the good ol'days.
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:10:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Pan Crastus on 01/12/2006 17:12:44
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Interesting how you conclude I was using explosive damage...
Well, let me put it like this - either you're making this up or exaggerating or you were using a really inefficient way to kill that Ferox. 2 Battleships and 2 HACs that can't do more than the roughly 250 DPS (after resists) needed to kill the Ferox setup you described in 60 seconds, must be doing something wrong. You'd think that a Raven with EM torps and the zealot would easily more than enough damage.
I don't mean to sound rude, but the numbers just don't add up. :-/
(but, on the other hand, I agree with that the Caldari +5% resists per level bonus is far out of line with the other bonuses, whether on BC, BS or capital ships)
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:26:00 -
[34]
If you want to see the logs; it just lasted the ****ed long ok?
I put the ships involved in a post somewhere up there and this is not a bunch of nubs firing at the guy. My corp is composed of almost exclusively 25+mil SP pilots that have been PvPing for over two years. We know wtf we're doing.
I don't mind slightly longer fights, but pure hitpoint tanking is taking whole new levels. I'd also like to point out BC's got MORE than 50% extra hitpoints and that a Ferox with extenders has far, FAR more hitpoints than a Raven had BEFORE Revelations plus it has better resists.
Sorry, but it completely sucks. Sure, the guy died and in my "profession" they usually do if they refuse to pay the ransom. Now imagine a less favorable situation where you are an interceptor and a battlecruiser hunting for targets in 0.0. Imagine finding a Ferox like this and imagine the horror when you take 5 minutes to kill it at which point 20 of his friends will have come to his aid.
Imagine being at empire war and patrolling around in a Zealot, when you run into the same Ferox. Imagine you not even being able to get him below half shields before you run out of cap only to have 20 of his friends warp on top of you two minutes later.
Last testing day on Sisi I was having a go at someone's Mega in a Hyperion. The fight lasted about 20 (that's TWENTY for you) minutes until I finally ran out of cap boosters. How's that for fun? I think it completely blows and any kind of excitement has been taken away from PvP.
This change single-handedly killed any non-fleet non-gank PvP in Eve. And the worst part, nobody except a few cares because everyone is content gloating over ganks and sitting in laggy blobs.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
|
Ankanos
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:30:00 -
[35]
to OP:
rollback? go away, its a great patch.
ccp wanted shake it up and they did.
i think you've completely missed the
point of ccp's intentions w/this patch.
i mainly take issue the contract system
which is both outstanding and horrible all
in the same breath..
oh, and maybe post a FAQ on the finer
points of how to operate the new
gang system.
everything else is pretty f'n good. just
get the bug spray out and kill some of
the obvious bugs and Kali1 is good to go.
-Q&A has definitely found its Chi
with this patch.
i'm playing 3yrs in january..i'm
completely impressed with the overal
stabilty of this patch, given the
magnitude of changes and new content
it contains. Outstanding job people.
Hat's off to CCP and Q&A
-ank
--- |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:40:00 -
[36]
I can imagine you being happy with the changes.
After all your 2 years and 10 months of School of Applied Knowledge have certainly tought you the ins and outs of PvP in Eve. I'm sure you like tons of extra hitpoints and more tankability since it makes your hisec-free-isk missions so much easier.
Now this thread is, unfortunately not about you. It's about how PvP is about to die in any form except fleet and gank which are the most boring parts of PvP an MMO has ever offered. So if you have no comments on that I'll ask you to just gtfo and go run another hisec mission.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:40:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Sun Ra
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
WTF CCP???
OP is just flat out wrong. It requires absolutly zero skills to create a fleet. It only requires skills to give gang bonuses to your fleet.
Basically, now there are a number of teirs that you have that can give gang bonuses [stacking? I dont know]. This is fleet, wing, and squad.
Your fleet commander skill dictates how many wings you may have under your control and still give bonuses. If you break this number then you wont give bonuses to anyone.
Your wing commander skill dictates how many squads you can have under your command and still give bonuses. If you break this number you wont give bonuses to anyone.
Your leadership skill dictates how many people in each squad you may under your command and still give bonuses. If you break this number you wont give bonuses to anyone.
There is absolutly no skill requirement to create or organize fleets. You do not need any skill to assign a commander to a squad and have him give bonuses though the commander does need leadership. You do not need a skill to assign wing commanders. You do not need a skill to assign fleet commanders. You only need a skill to give bonuses at those levels
|
Zin Rathbone
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:41:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
If you want to see the logs; it just lasted the ****ed long ok?
I put the ships involved in a post somewhere up there and this is not a bunch of nubs firing at the guy. My corp is composed of almost exclusively 25+mil SP pilots that have been PvPing for over two years. We know wtf we're doing.
I don't mind slightly longer fights, but pure hitpoint tanking is taking whole new levels. I'd also like to point out BC's got MORE than 50% extra hitpoints and that a Ferox with extenders has far, FAR more hitpoints than a Raven had BEFORE Revelations plus it has better resists.
Sorry, but it completely sucks. Sure, the guy died and in my "profession" they usually do if they refuse to pay the ransom. Now imagine a less favorable situation where you are an interceptor and a battlecruiser hunting for targets in 0.0. Imagine finding a Ferox like this and imagine the horror when you take 5 minutes to kill it at which point 20 of his friends will have come to his aid.
Imagine being at empire war and patrolling around in a Zealot, when you run into the same Ferox. Imagine you not even being able to get him below half shields before you run out of cap only to have 20 of his friends warp on top of you two minutes later.
Last testing day on Sisi I was having a go at someone's Mega in a Hyperion. The fight lasted about 20 (that's TWENTY for you) minutes until I finally ran out of cap boosters. How's that for fun? I think it completely blows and any kind of excitement has been taken away from PvP.
This change single-handedly killed any non-fleet non-gank PvP in Eve. And the worst part, nobody except a few cares because everyone is content gloating over ganks and sitting in laggy blobs.
My advice is to quite the game shortly after sending me all your money.
Things have changed, adapt.
|
Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:48:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 01/12/2006 17:49:09
Quote:
There is absolutly no skill requirement to create or organize fleets. You do not need any skill to assign a commander to a squad and have him give bonuses though the commander does need leadership. You do not need a skill to assign wing commanders. You do not need a skill to assign fleet commanders. You only need a skill to give bonuses at those levels
So basically what you're saying is that I can create a fleet if I want to, but if I want to give my gang bonuses to the guys in my assigned squad I need to train the Wing Command skill after all.
Isn't that the exact same thing? Does that change the fact I still have 2,5 million skillpoints of worthlessness?
And to the Zin Ratbone moron above me; you wish. You sure do wish. Lucky for me I also enjoy the market/building part of the game.
The PvP part, however, is about to die a horrible death, but it's ok if you don't agree. Just make a decent argument instead of polluting the thread with your presence. I advice you go shoot some more Gurista's and come back when you got a portrait.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:00:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 01/12/2006 17:49:09
Quote:
There is absolutly no skill requirement to create or organize fleets. You do not need any skill to assign a commander to a squad and have him give bonuses though the commander does need leadership. You do not need a skill to assign wing commanders. You do not need a skill to assign fleet commanders. You only need a skill to give bonuses at those levels
So basically what you're saying is that I can create a fleet if I want to, but if I want to give my gang bonuses to the guys in my assigned squad I need to train the Wing Command skill after all.
Isn't that the exact same thing? Does that change the fact I still have 2,5 million skillpoints of worthlessness?
And to the Zin Ratbone moron above me; you wish. You sure do wish. Lucky for me I also enjoy the market/building part of the game.
The PvP part, however, is about to die a horrible death, but it's ok if you don't agree. Just make a decent argument instead of polluting the thread with your presence. I advice you go shoot some more Gurista's and come back when you got a portrait.
If you are the feet commander you cannot give gang bonuses to everyone in the fleet without the fleet commander skill.
If you are the wing commander you cannot give gang bonuses to everyone in the wing without the wing commander skill
If you are the squad leader you can cannot give gang bonuses to everyone in the squad without the leadership skill.
If you have 2.5 million SP in leadership without the leadership, then i dont really know what to say.
|
Nicocat
Caldari
New Age Solutions
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:01:00 -
[41]
The HP bonus kept a Raven that was defending a mining op alive while I was kiting it with a Nanophoon. NERF OMG!
Seriously, the HP bonus isn't the end of the world. I'd say 45 seconds to crunch a Ferox is fine, since a) torps do less damage to BCs (smaller sig), and b) EM drones and Zealots kinda suck. Why don't you give it a whirl and putter around in a tanked BC, see how much punishment you can take? I recommend the new ones, since they whoop ass.
Let's see here... as for the other points, Nos is an important tool for combat, just like ECM and other Ewar abilities. It's just a bit too important now... much like ECM was ;) Scan probes are fine now, keep moving around. Contracts are a double-edged sword; I like the instant auction, but I hate being unable to sort/search for them. And I don't have gang skills, so I don't know about the last one.
----------------------------
Buying Sabres. EVEmail or convo me in game! |
Zin Rathbone
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:05:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 01/12/2006 17:49:09
Quote:
There is absolutly no skill requirement to create or organize fleets. You do not need any skill to assign a commander to a squad and have him give bonuses though the commander does need leadership. You do not need a skill to assign wing commanders. You do not need a skill to assign fleet commanders. You only need a skill to give bonuses at those levels
So basically what you're saying is that I can create a fleet if I want to, but if I want to give my gang bonuses to the guys in my assigned squad I need to train the Wing Command skill after all.
Isn't that the exact same thing? Does that change the fact I still have 2,5 million skillpoints of worthlessness?
And to the Zin Ratbone moron above me; you wish. You sure do wish. Lucky for me I also enjoy the market/building part of the game.
The PvP part, however, is about to die a horrible death, but it's ok if you don't agree. Just make a decent argument instead of polluting the thread with your presence. I advice you go shoot some more Gurista's and come back when you got a portrait.
OK, here is my argument:
Point one: you sound like you have had 37 cups of coffee and have been locked out of the bathroom. Less hysterics please.
Point two: If your argument was that it took an entire 45 seconds to overwhelm a ship that was badly outnumbered/outclassed(a ship class that got huge bonuses in the patch), and that thus pvp is dead, you need meds. OMG, a fight lasted less. . . than... a ... minute, instead of being an instapop (and those are fun, so full of tactics and subtle pvp strategy, aren't they). System working as intended, pvp now takes longer. Tactics will change. Things will evolve. Small gang/solo pvp is still totally viable. It will just work a bit differently.
|
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:05:00 -
[43]
Quote:
1) Tanking. During the last several patches you have improved tanking bit by bit until today, we have reached the point where you cannot kill a ship of your own size within a reasonable timeframe. In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox. I'm inclined to say you finally fixed instapop in fleets, but is the cost of the death of all other forms of PvP worth it?
FIX: Undo ALL hitpoint changes.
1a) Nos. Due to (1) Nosferatu's are the only way to defeat someone. This very fact, puts extreme pressure on ships that need cap to function and greatly boosts passive tanking whereas it already has gotten too good thanks to the changes to extenders and stuff a few builds ago.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
To make things worse, all of this *has been pointed out to you* in the Revelations testing, but you chose to ignore it and go live on TQ anyway.
2) Scanprobes. It used to involve skill finding someone; especially mission runners. While the whole 1au-plane thing has always been dumb, there was something other than skillpoints involved. Today, everything can be found in minutes and the new launchers isn't even on the market.
This is just a useless and stupid whine.
There have been no significant balance changes aside from rigs to the current patch.
Blasters got a bit of a boost and AC's got a bit of a boost.
But other than that no serius balance changes.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:13:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 01/12/2006 18:14:34
To all who are saying "U SUX OP!!!!11oneone", or "things change, adapt":
This turns the game into a gankfest. There is a line somewhere between "gankfest" and "longer combat" that needs to be found.
... besides, if you give it some thought, passive tank bonuses were ALREADY too powerful... and now they're just nuts. They magnify the given buffs far too much.
Originally by: Goumindong
Blasters got a bit of a boost and AC's got a bit of a boost.
But other than that no serius balance changes.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:14:00 -
[45]
The hitpoints/tanking boost is awesome. Now there is a "home-field" advantage. It's now actually dangerous to take a fast moving gank-squad through hostile space. Ships can last long enough for reinforcements to arrive...which is something that any raiding fleet should have to take into consideration but has never had to until perhaps now.
Extended combat is a terrific boost for pvp in Eve.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:15:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 01/12/2006 18:17:16
Originally by: Garreck
The hitpoints/tanking boost is awesome. Now there is a "home-field" advantage. It's now actually dangerous to take a fast moving gank-squad through hostile space. Ships can last long enough for reinforcements to arrive...which is something that any raiding fleet should have to take into consideration but has never had to until perhaps now.
It's great being a carebear in Kali, isn't it?
Except for all that missioning stuff...
Quote:
Extended combat is a terrific boost for pvp in Eve.
I guess it is, if you're the kind of person who sees an enemy/pirate and starts freaking out, "OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD COMBAT NOES", and has to take care to calm yourself down - by that time you're in structure.
OP: Yeah, this stuff needs to be taken care of. So many balance changing things being introduced to the game so fast was a bad idea. I'm so glad I'm taking a break atm.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:22:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Garreck on 01/12/2006 18:22:32
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
It's great being a carebear in Kali, isn't it?
I wouldn't know.
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
I guess it is, if you're the kind of person who sees an enemy/pirate and starts freaking out, "OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD COMBAT NOES", and has to take care to calm yourself down - by that time you're in structure.
If you're a pilot who panics, you're dead no matter how many hitpoints you have. Pre-hitpoint boost, though, it was easier to just die and use the killmail for intel. Now, pilot being ganked has time to say "woa, I'm under attack in 'x' system at 'y' location by 'a, b, and c' ships" and if you have friends nearby there's a decent chance for them to respond.
And for a real fight to develop, instead of a 5 v 1.
But we wouldn't want that, now would we?
|
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:25:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 01/12/2006 18:27:38
Originally by: Garreck
If you're a pilot who panics, you're dead no matter how many hitpoints you have. Pre-hitpoint boost, though, it was easier to just die and use the killmail for intel. Now, pilot being ganked has time to say "woa, I'm under attack in 'x' system at 'y' location by 'a, b, and c' ships" and if you have friends nearby there's a decent chance for them to respond.
And for a real fight to develop, instead of a 5 v 1.
But we wouldn't want that, now would we?
"It gives time to call in support." Hah! Nice propaganda line.
TBH, that isn't anywhere near enough time unless you have people standing by ready to warp in on you (or uness you're in a carrier that can survive against a small fleet for 10 minutes). No... 25%-75% extra time doesn't mean squat, except that 5 high SP characters taking 45 seconds to kill a single battlecruiser is utterly ridiculous.
Yeah... I just don't buy any of this crap. Passive tanks are far overpowered by this change, and need to be seriously looked at.
EDIT: Gotta keep those curse words in check, I don't need another warning
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Cadman Weyland
Eternity INC.
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:31:00 -
[49]
A roll back Shay ? thats a tad harsh dont ya think.
Oks im not best chuffed my 6 mil sp in Gang Warfares semi nerfed, but other than that im finding this to have been best patch ever. Wing comamnder 3 already, 4 soon solves my gang mod problem. Quite like your suggestion though.
Scan probing does seem a lil too easy given what ive heard but tanking is cool, i want long battles, not 20 sec ganks.
So far im liking Revelations 
wtb lots of Harbingers
|
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:32:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
TBH, that isn't anywhere near enough time unless you have people standing by ready to warp in on you. No... 25%-75% extra time doesn't mean ****, except that 5 high SP characters taking 45 seconds to kill a single battlecruiser is utterly ******* ridiculous.
If the added time to kill someone isn't enough to make a difference, people wouldn't be complaining.
It makes the difference in that if you want to kill quickly, you must risk bringing that kind of firepower along (which doesn't tend to go un-noticed.) It means that if you don't want to risk being noticed, the few fast movers you bring will be pounding on their target for long enough that reinforcements can arrive.
Which is the issue here. People are upset that their low-risk combat approach (fast moving gangs engaging solo targets for easy kills) has been gimped. Now, if you get tied down with that solo target, you might find yourself facing a force capable of killing you.
But it's a two-way street, right? The force that comes to defend their pilot is going to have just as much difficulty killing you as you had trying to kill your solo target. Combat is extended, time to change plans on the fly is introduced, combat gets overall "more interesting."
|
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:38:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 01/12/2006 18:42:05
Originally by: Garreck
Which is the issue here. People are upset that their low-risk combat approach (fast moving gangs engaging solo targets for easy kills) has been gimped. Now, if you get tied down with that solo target, you might find yourself facing a force capable of killing you.
If the ship spoke of by the OP was a Brutix, Hurricane, or Harb, I doubt very much it would have lasted that long. I think that this change has MAGNIFIED existing imbalances. Tux has acknowledged two things:
- Passive tanks need to be "looked" at
- The changes he made do not "fix" combat
Which ever way you look at it, a group of 5 BSes and HACs should NOT need 45 seconds to take down a ferox. Once again, I claim that this is due to magnification of existing imbalances, rather than an intended "good change".
Quote:
But it's a two-way street, right?
Meh... still don't want it. Unless there are some other serious changes to the game, no matter how you slice it, I'm not going to like the HP boost until it gets properly balanced out.
Originally by: Garreck
(fast moving gangs engaging solo targets for easy kills)
5 BSes and HACs is hardly a "fast moving gang".  Or at least it didn't used to be. WTZ has made EVERYTHING a "fast moving gang" now. 
I will stick to this: introducing so many changes at once was a BAD BAD BAD idea.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:42:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 01/12/2006 18:14:34
To all who are saying "U SUX OP!!!!11oneone", or "things change, adapt":
This turns the game into a gankfest. There is a line somewhere between "gankfest" and "longer combat" that needs to be found.
... besides, if you give it some thought, passive tank bonuses were ALREADY too powerful... and now they're just nuts. They magnify the given buffs far too much.
Originally by: Goumindong
Blasters got a bit of a boost and AC's got a bit of a boost.
But other than that no serius balance changes.
You think I am joking?
Autocannons
AC's got a damage boost because as ROF decreases reloading time has less of an impact on damage.
For 220's with max ROF skills and two[t2] damage mods, this means about 1.9% dps for autocannons. As fights last longer the more this is important.
Blasterboats
Blasterboats benefit from the HP/CAP boost. This is because the percent of time that it takes to close to your target is reduced.
I.E. if it took 10 seconds to close to your target before Kali, it still takes 10 seconds to close to your target after Kali.
However, since the HPS boost and Cap boost are in effect the amount of damage a longer range ship can do to you before you close is less as a percent of your HP than it was before Kali.
As well, since you have more capacitor, the amount of time you need to run your MWD as a percent of your capacitor is reduced as well.
This means that close range boats get an effective HP and an effective capacitor increase because they have a larger percent of their capacitor left after closing the distance to their targets.
All other changes affected all other weapon systems equally. The cap/HP boost perfectly evens out in the time it takes your cap to run out and the HP it took to kill them.
I.E. If you could kill them before the patch, you could kill them after the patch if you are using AC's or blasters. If you could not, you might be able to if you are using autocannons or blasters, because those setups got a slight boost, but its unlikly.
All in all, aside from rigs there have been no major balance changes[unless the new CPR's and istabs are going to radically change blaster balance]
|
Cadela Fria
Amarr
eXin Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:53:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 01/12/2006 13:01:58
On the gang thing; when I tried to convert my gang to a fleet last wednesday I was told I couldn't do that because I needed to have skill such and such trained.
Dunno what I did wrong then.
Wouldn't know, but all I have is leadership to lvl 5 and I can create a fleet easily..Did it as early as yesterday.
*shrugs*
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Anyway, there's prolonging combat and dragging combat out. The single fact it takes five fully 30+mil skillpoint pilots in various t2 kitted BS and HAC's 45 seconds to kill a t1 shield extender fitted Ferox is completely wrong. Now try the same thing in a Brutix vs that Ferox and watch how you die when your cap charges run out.
Anyone saying otherwise has never PvP'd. Really.
Well now, look at you mister high and mighty. Who made you the king of deeming others worthy of the title "PvP'er"? Thats right ..No one, so get off your pedestal your "lordship".
Sure it takes a while longer to kill people, but I have no idea what you were doing or what that other guy was packing, because I killed a ferox shortly after the deployment of Revelations, and it took awhile longer, but we're talking like ..20 seconds longer maybe..and I was alone, in my zealot, the whole time.
Maybe you people were unlucky and me lucky..I don't know. But the fact is, the whole idea of the HP boost was to make battles more epic in nature and they are. And yes it might be that there need to be a few tweaks here and there..no doubt..it's a brand new expansion deployment, changes are inevitable.
Just takes a little time and grooming.
You can't judge the entire value of a patch/expansion by the circumstances surrounding one or two incidents, thats just wrong.
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
As for the scanprobes, I shoot people. I like having people to shoot. I don't like finding mission runners in 2 minutes with NO skill involved. It's exactly like Ishana says.
This I have to agree with though :)
The rest of the post is a repitition of the first part of the post and I already said my piece about that 
-Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:53:00 -
[54]
what kind of dps were you guys doing all together in what damage areas for one, for two how do you know he was passive? three how much was he moving and using what speeds to move at, next how accruate were your weapons. how do you know he didn't have a booster on, and if you knew his set up what was his mid a lows? if you don't know the dps just tell me what were the BSs and HACs that were used so then i could see for myself, well for one more thing is it may of been a alt but it didn't seem to be ysing faction or officer or he might of out tanked out guys with some ease before kali.
|
Garreck
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:56:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
5 BSes and HACs is hardly a "fast moving gang".
I was not sufficiently clear.
No, the final gang that was brought to bear was not a "fast moving gang" by any definition I would use. However...it was the solid tank that necessitated the introduction of reinforcements. In this case, the Black Rabbits were able to reinforce more quickly...the very fact that rapid redeployment was a factor, though is a good thing!
As you say, 45 seconds is probably not enough time to matter. But it required exposure of hard hitting ships which is something that could have been taken advantage of by a defending organization. That opportunity, that potential for the defenders has been introduced by CCP quite on purpose, and I think it's a good thing.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:03:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 01/12/2006 19:04:19
Originally by: Goumindong
If you are watching the game on EVE TV right now, the megathron seemed to be fine against a wolf, 2 iskurs, and an absolution... Just blew the ever loving bejebus out of them, minus the absoltion which CTD'
Nah I'm at work... but a fight against basically 3AFs? Meh... I want to see fights of AC/Blaster ships against their PEERS! Domi, Raven, Tempest, Maelstrom (not all at once). Heh. Oops I said I wasn't going to reply on this topic again.
Originally by: Goumindong
course, as soon as i say that it goes down due to tracking disruptors :)
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Chi Prime
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:04:00 -
[57]
<3 Shay o/ This reminds me of good old days :D
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*
Actually, you can convert to a fleet without that skill, and the wing commander can still apply his gang bonuses to his separate wing aslong he has sufficient skills for his wing.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.01 19:06:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 01/12/2006 19:04:19
Originally by: Goumindong
If you are watching the game on EVE TV right now, the megathron seemed to be fine against a wolf, 2 iskurs, and an absolution... Just blew the ever loving bejebus out of them, minus the absoltion which CTD'
Nah I'm at work... but a fight against basically 3AFs? Meh... I want to see fights of AC/Blaster ships against their PEERS! Domi, Raven, Tempest, Maelstrom (not all at once). Heh. Oops I said I wasn't going to reply on this topic again.
Originally by: Goumindong
course, as soon as i say that it goes down due to tracking disruptors :)
Tracking Disruptors > Turret ships.
What dont you understand about that?
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.12.01 19:07:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 01/12/2006 19:08:10
Originally by: Goumindong
Tracking Disruptors > Turret ships.
What dont you understand about that?
What are you smoking?
What the hell did I say that made you think that I don't understand that?
Speaking to you is an insult to me.
EDIT: ooh, "hell" isn't on the "naughty word list" 
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.01 19:11:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 01/12/2006 19:08:10
Originally by: Goumindong
Tracking Disruptors > Turret ships.
What dont you understand about that?
What are you smoking?
What the hell did I say that made you think that I don't understand that?
Speaking to you is an insult to me.
EDIT: ooh, "hell" isn't on the "naughty word list"
It was the "roll" and the "lol"
The ishkur was able to outrange the megathron and take it down with drones. I would assume the thon couldnt hit the drones due to the disruption.
Though the ishkur ended up being run out of the arena and getting concorded.
But yea, i think 3 AF's and a Command ship ought to be able to take down a thron, especialy with TD's. The Thron came back very well fitting a full contingent of blasters.
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 19:28:00 -
[61]
So, in effect we have this:
The fleet thing; thank god. Of course I do have Leadership lvl 5 (fighter drones duh!) and with Squadron Command trained now I get at least something out of my skills, but still... meh. Why was this neccesary?
As for the hitpoints; I can see why people are liking it. I can see why missioners like it. I fail to see how it makes Eve more fun. I really do.
All I see is the same fights lasting longer or, as a consquence, people bringing even MORE ships. I actually went 1v1 at a gate just an hour ago. Okay, I had the sentries against me, but their damage is laughable. I was flying my trusted tech II Blasterthron with Injector and medium cargo cans for extra charges.
I was shooting a Drake. He was tanked passive I think, but I'm not too sure since it's hard to see if there's a booster running with that amount of hitpoints. After 5 or 6 minutes of taking fire from both the sentry guns and the Drake I was out of cap. Out of charges too. And quite out of armor too, so when my tanking mods died I chose to bail out. The Drake has 20-ish% shield left. Yes he was tanked to the teeth (prolly tech II extenders et all); mission runners tend to be that. No he didn't have a scrambler or a webber and his damage wasn't too good (I was taking sentries and him on single repper), but COME ON. Seriously.
Is it intended to be like that? Cos, if a tech II Thron with tech II Ogres and the whole nine yards can't really kill it, how the hell is something else supposed to blow it up?
Sure, during that 6 minute timeframe I could have easily called in a few friends who are all eager for the kill and they're only a minute away, but I chose not to. Heck if he had any brains he could have slowboated to the gate and just jumped...
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.01 19:30:00 -
[62]
Shayla if you have squad command then you should get someone with leadership togother and see if gang bonuses stack.
Because if they stack then there is huge benefit to froming fleets instead of individual squads.
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Micheal Cassio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 20:32:00 -
[63]
Everyone is saying that this hp boost allows for more tactics and all, however this is only true in small engagements between only a few ships. Now how many times do you think that these perfect small engagements will happen, not nearly as much because there is time for everyone and the mother to come and join the fight.
This just encourages large groups to fly around ganking people because you will be hard pressed to find a true 1v1 situation with the amount of time it takes to kill someone.
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Saleia
AFK Mining
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Posted - 2006.12.01 20:40:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 01/12/2006 10:47:45
I'm wondering, CCP if Revelations brought what you expected.
Because, if it is, I think you and your players have a serious communication problem. I'll admit Kali has a few (very few) good things, let me point out the problems and bad things it brought...
1) Tanking. During the last several patches you have improved tanking bit by bit until today, we have reached the point where you cannot kill a ship of your own size within a reasonable timeframe. In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox. I'm inclined to say you finally fixed instapop in fleets, but is the cost of the death of all other forms of PvP worth it?
FIX: Undo ALL hitpoint changes.
1a) Nos. Due to (1) Nosferatu's are the only way to defeat someone. This very fact, puts extreme pressure on ships that need cap to function and greatly boosts passive tanking whereas it already has gotten too good thanks to the changes to extenders and stuff a few builds ago.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
To make things worse, all of this *has been pointed out to you* in the Revelations testing, but you chose to ignore it and go live on TQ anyway.
2) Scanprobes. It used to involve skill finding someone; especially mission runners. While the whole 1au-plane thing has always been dumb, there was something other than skillpoints involved. Today, everything can be found in minutes and the new launchers isn't even on the market.
FIX: Get your old system back and just fix the plane thing so that probes scan the actual globe and not just a disc.
3) Contracts. Seriously, what are you thinking. I admit it's a nice tool for corps and player-drives missions, but it kills BPC trading, kills window shopping (The great strength of Escrow) and the silly regional search thing will make Jita explode. I was 346th in queue last night. How bad does it have to be before you realize regional systems SUCK because players will ALWAYS flock to the best market. I refer to your old Yulai problem that you "fixed" with Cold War. I think it failed, no?
FIX: return escrow and make it exist together with the contract system.
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
Please read your patch notes. The new scan probes do not scan in a disk anymore.
Also the fleet issue you listed here. I don't have wing commander 5 and can form gangs and squads just fine. For both mining and ganging no prob.
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 20:45:00 -
[65]
Quote:
Please read your patch notes. The new scan probes do not scan in a disk anymore.
I know that. I'm merely saying that this new system is so frigging easy a 2 year old can find people with probes. The old system had some actual skill involved to get it done right. I sucked at it, but I know three people that were extremely dangerous with scan probes. Now it's just pressing a button and wait.
What they needed to do was fix the disc thing and leave it unchanged otherwise.
Quote:
Also the fleet issue you listed here. I don't have wing commander 5 and can form gangs and squads just fine. For both mining and ganging no prob.
Form, yes. Transmitting gang bonuses, no. You do need the skills for that which is silly. In fact, it's just new skills to do something we already could before. Quite a retarded way to make charisma "more useful".
This is especially odd for mining gangs consisting of more than 5 people. CCP's forcing a miner to train Wing Command just so the entire mining gang can get the bonus.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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Arushia
Nova Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.01 22:04:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
3) Contracts. Seriously, what are you thinking. I admit it's a nice tool for corps and player-drives missions, but it kills BPC trading, kills window shopping (The great strength of Escrow) and the silly regional search thing will make Jita explode. I was 346th in queue last night. How bad does it have to be before you realize regional systems SUCK because players will ALWAYS flock to the best market. I refer to your old Yulai problem that you "fixed" with Cold War. I think it failed, no?
FIX: return escrow and make it exist together with the contract system.
Going by your login on NOS, it would make more sense to remove Jita from the game.
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Commoner
Caldari
Emergent Chaos
The Core Collective
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Posted - 2006.12.01 22:35:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Commoner on 01/12/2006 22:35:01
What about making nos drain a percentage of your remaining cap? (like 1% or so) and leave the ultradrainage to energy neutralizers?
1. Would make you drain less and less as your enemy loses cap (and thus making it take a long time to drain)
2. Would help against the bigship vs. smallship large nos issue.
The tanking issues well can't really comment on that but thats one idea.
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CherniyVolk
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Posted - 2006.12.01 22:36:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Lorn Yeager
Do you understand the reasons for the increase? its exactly to PROLONG combat.
So its quite fine that your ganksquad cant kill people in the blink of an eye.
But its still doable. Yesterday I killed a ferrox - solo - in a thorax.
I understand the reasons for the increase.... but the increases are NOT balanced and are OVERKILL.
Personally, the best way for CCP to "level the playing field between veterans and newbs", or to "prolong battle" would to do something about how long it takes to TRAIN the skills required for better equipment. Instead, they keep increasing the hitpoints of Tech One ships... and they FINALLY got to the point where their is no need or real benefit to skill up to a T2 ship!
T2 ships got virtually NO increase (12% isn't flip compared to 50%/66%), and their damage output was not fudged to even marginally compensate! T2 ships, all of them, suffered an extreme nerf in Kali! So much, the only ships worth flying are Tier 2 Battlecruisers and Battleships. Before, you had a choice, you could fly a HAC, an AF an Inty, T2 BC or Battleship. Now, not even a T2 BC, which had unbelievable tank as it could take on multiple HACs, is pretty much worthless! Most people can't even fly them yet!
Secondly, ON TOP OF IT ALL... they have FAILED to prolong battle. Just because it takes LONGER to chew up all those hitpoints... doesn't mean the BATTLE has raged that long. There IS NO BATTLE if you don't have an opposing force. They FAILED to adjust NOSFERATU, and failed to consider sufficient adjustments to capacitor, so what ends up happening is you get incapacitated and CAN'T fight! This happens, just as quickly now, as it took to kill the person pre-Kali. And in the end, you still die becuase you can't fight back.
Fights were NOT prolonged. Cap boosters, this and that... some of the ships can't fight cap boosters, some ships can't fit a reasonable fit for their roles! (Yes, the Deimos is one such ship, even with the skimpy 90PG upgrade). Fitting a power hungry cap booster to many ... it's just ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous? Because if T1 ships have so much hitpoints you can barely crush their tank fitted in Gank Mode... then surely you'll have to have smaller guns to fit a power hungry cap booster. Great, noone dies! (I saw this stalemate effect many times on the testserver and it's stupid).
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Azrael Bierce
Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2006.12.01 22:44:00 -
[69]
I wouldn't remove nos's entirely, they're a valid tactic. Maybe add ammo to them. Pulse a few times then need to reload. Make it a little more tactical than just "turn on and forget about".
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Gaius Valeri
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Posted - 2006.12.01 23:11:00 -
[70]
Personally, I LIKE the HP Boosts for the following reasons:
1) Why shouldn't a larger tanked ship (BC / BS), which sacrificed all of its DPS for tank, be able to last against several enemy ships?
2) The HP boost allows for all of the mentioned tactics already in this thread, such as calling reinforcements / setting traps.
3) The HP boost also allows for future developments that require longer combat. How about weapon / sytem targeting? How about heat / other dev mentioned combat changes. How about :gasp: other really cool developments that require combat to last more than a few seconds?
Personally, I wouldn't mind if combat lasted several minutes or more if maneuvering became incredibly important. Imagine Arc damage adjustments -- I.E. 25% damage boost if in the rear arc of an enemy ship, or a 5-10% damage boost if directly above or below the ship . Imainge fleet formation actually meaning something -- a wall that stopped enemy ships from getting above, below, or behind the formation! It could even give stealth bombers a roll, since they could "sneak" in behind the enemy and gain a big DPS boost hitting enemy battleships from behind.
But I guess you wouldn't want any future developments like that becuase now you have to wait a whole 45 seconds to kill a totally tanked ship.
....
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.12.01 23:41:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5.
*ring* *ring*
Hear that? I'm calling bull****.
Leadership V was mentioned as a req to form a 'fleet', and as mentioned below, someone formed a 'fleet' and only had leadership IV.
I'm glad to hear it took you 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked ferox. I'd like to know what ships and setups you were using against it, and 45 seconds is not ever long, it was what, maybe a dozen rounds of ammo if you were all using high ROF stuff? It takes most people longer than that to kill a weak NPC BS.
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Ohmy Fugod
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.01 23:44:00 -
[72]
Adama is happy with the new hp's boost. It gave Apollo enough time to show up and save their asses. Lost a ship, but no one got podded.
Oh btw, how many ships passively tank in pvp? Honestly, out of the whole usable bunch, really, how many do it?
Yeah I know, it could come down to a matter of quality over quantity (ie, everyone flying that one passive tanker), but nonetheless, I'd give it some more time before deciding whether it needs to be looked into or not.
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Quod Natura non da, Salamantica non praesta |
Trytic
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Posted - 2006.12.02 00:03:00 -
[73]
I dunno if this has ever been mentioned, but theres counters to most forms of combat isnt there? Why dont we have a NOS jammer, maybe something that would sit in a mid slot, that can cause NOS to temp. stop working? From what ive seen it looks like NOS is hard to counter, so, instead of getting rid of it like people have mentioned, why not make a counter to it?
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.12.02 00:35:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
Oh btw, how many ships passively tank in pvp? Honestly, out of the whole usable bunch, really, how many do it?
Yeah I know, it could come down to a matter of quality over quantity (ie, everyone flying that one passive tanker), but nonetheless, I'd give it some more time before deciding whether it needs to be looked into or not.
Tux has already said it need to be looked into. Heh.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
SN3263827
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.02 00:36:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Trytic
I dunno if this has ever been mentioned, but theres counters to most forms of combat isnt there? Why dont we have a NOS jammer, maybe something that would sit in a mid slot, that can cause NOS to temp. stop working? From what ive seen it looks like NOS is hard to counter, so, instead of getting rid of it like people have mentioned, why not make a counter to it?
Cap Boosters already exist.
As for prolonged combat, I can't engage at gates any more, or at least its worthless to try because in the time it takes to kill one ferox I lose 10-12 of my 15 heavy drones. Yes, that is even while recalling and redeploying drones as they start to take damage.
_____________________________________________
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Ohmy Fugod
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.02 01:26:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
Oh btw, how many ships passively tank in pvp? Honestly, out of the whole usable bunch, really, how many do it?
Yeah I know, it could come down to a matter of quality over quantity (ie, everyone flying that one passive tanker), but nonetheless, I'd give it some more time before deciding whether it needs to be looked into or not.
Tux has already said it need to be looked into. Heh.
My bad, should've said "modified" instead.
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Quod Natura non da, Salamantica non praesta |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.12.02 02:28:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 02/12/2006 02:29:26
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
My bad, should've said "modified" instead.
Anyway, everyone understands that any "passive" tank in PVP is supplemented with an "active" component. However, when people refer to "passive" tanks being overpowered, they are usually referring to the significant bonus that a passive bonus + passive regen has over a tank that only has an active bonus.
Its just the passive bonus + passive regen that really pushes it over the edge.
Less need for manual repping > greater return on repping, and all that.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Sadayiel
Caldari
Black Lance
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.02 03:37:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Sadayiel on 02/12/2006 03:40:10
Quote:
Last testing day on Sisi I was having a go at someone's Mega in a Hyperion. The fight lasted about 20 (that's TWENTY for you) minutes until I finally ran out of cap boosters. How's that for fun? I think it completely blows and any kind of excitement has been taken away from PvP
I suggest you start fitting large guns instead meds do wonders.
So far my *common* hyperion fittings usually overrun any mega setup for close range unless pure neutron (can't tank dmg)and sometimes ions (the dmg control +5 heavy hurts) mostly 8x cap boosters used before all ends.
so far only rokh got me with their sick tanks.
Banana's 4tw - Xorus
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.02 11:15:00 -
[79]
Ah feel the love...
Quote:
*ring* *ring*
Hear that? I'm calling bull****.
Leadership V was mentioned as a req to form a 'fleet', and as mentioned below, someone formed a 'fleet' and only had leadership IV.
Read the whole thread before hitting reply. You still can't transfer your gang skills to more than just one squad without training a load of skills.
Quote:
Oh btw, how many ships passively tank in pvp? Honestly, out of the whole usable bunch, really, how many do it?
I we define "passive tank" as a passive shield tank, then not too many. If we define "passive tank" as "have tons and tons of hitpoints" then the answer will be "pretty much everyone".
Quote:
I suggest you start fitting large guns instead meds do wonders.
Look mom! I can make silly comments too.
Tbh, learn to fit a Mega properly and you'll see how long that Hyperion lasts. They have the same damage output, similar tanks (Hyperion having more rep per cycle but Mega having the extra slot) and the Hype is only more versatile. Hype vs Mega is a boring, drawn-out fight assuming both players actually know what they're doing.
Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't mind if combat lasted several minutes or more if maneuvering became incredibly important. Imagine Arc damage adjustments -- I.E. 25% damage boost if in the rear arc of an enemy ship, or a 5-10% damage boost if directly above or below the ship . Imainge fleet formation actually meaning something -- a wall that stopped enemy ships from getting above, below, or behind the formation! It could even give stealth bombers a roll, since they could "sneak" in behind the enemy and gain a big DPS boost hitting enemy battleships from behind.
But I guess you wouldn't want any future developments like that becuase now you have to wait a whole 45 seconds to kill a totally tanked ship
I don't mind stuff like that being developed. I do mind CCP making combat a pure boring DRAG of waiting, waiting, waiting and waiting. THERE IS NO TACTICS INVOLVED BEYOND WHAT AMMO YOU USE AND HOW YOU MOVE AROUND. What is all this tactics everyone keeps mentioning? Oh right, THEY DON'T EXIST. Target, activate mods, deploy drones and wait. Develop tactical options first and THEN make fights longer. Not the other way around. So, YES, I do mind combat getting prolonged to the point where only ganking is viable if you don't want your target to just slowboat to a gate and jump out. Or if you want to keep your drones alive at a gate. Or if you want to quickly kill that straggler before that enemy fleet comes back.
And I'm not the only one. CCP did exactly the one thing they didn't need to do. They gave people an incentive to fly around in bigger gang. They killed ANY form of 1v1, 2v1 and 2v2 combat. They killed the viability of a group of smaller ships vs a larger ship and they gave the deathblow to AFs and Bombers that were both questionable ship classes in the first place.
As I said before, prolonging combat, sure. But not like this.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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Matrix Aran
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.12.02 12:19:00 -
[80]
Uh I really don't know what to say. All of your comments are fair up to two points. The first point is when you exagerate a fact, or you state something as a cause for a problem that you yourself have made. The second point is when you sudgest a solution that doesn't make sence and goes against what alot of people do like about this patch, most noteably your points about the contracts system. The only point you make which is even halfway agreeable is the one on NOS but your solution to it fails to take into acount any consequences of the action.
----
Originally by: Wrangler
It's a neuralizer.
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Cadman Weyland
Eternity INC.
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Posted - 2006.12.02 12:27:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Cadman Weyland on 02/12/2006 12:27:47
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
lots a stuff .
OMG just like old times
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Captain Crimson
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.02 15:12:00 -
[82]
Thank you Tux, you just ruined PvP.
'What do you mean, where's the treasure? It's in this chest: ****ography and biscuits! Yarrr!'
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Sadayiel
Caldari
Black Lance
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.02 16:12:00 -
[83]
Quote:
Tbh, learn to fit a Mega properly and you'll see how long that Hyperion lasts. They have the same damage output, similar tanks (Hyperion having more rep per cycle but Mega having the extra slot) and the Hype is only more versatile. Hype vs Mega is a boring, drawn-out fight assuming both players actually know what they're doing
Well, despite wich kind of turrets you use, the setups are all similar, maybe 1x less mag stab 1x more hardener or L repper. As already pointed the freaking DMG control for struc + 5x heavy drones used wisely it's wich hurt the hype vs mega.
if you want can point to *learn the proper skills* but then i'm not going to bother keep this discussion since i see you live in your own reality.
Banana's 4tw - Xorus
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.03 00:34:00 -
[84]
Well that's ok of course, as you have quite a reality of your own.
That reality probably is one where you never actually flew the ship in this kind of situation but only theorize. I'm a 40 million skillpoint pilot. My "proper" skills are 5's on every relevant skill except Large Blaster Spec and High Speed Maneuvering.
My experience is two years of being in a PvP corp fighting with and/or against pretty much every major alliance in the game. I know how to play. I know the Mega and her oddities inside out.
I also know that Hype vs Mega is a fight of whomever runs out of cap boosters first. If your experience is different, well, then it is you who needs to train the proper skills. If you're unwilling to bring actual facts or an experience to the discussion, well, then I understand why you won't continue it: you have NO argument at all.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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