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Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 01/12/2006 10:47:45 I'm wondering, CCP if Revelations brought what you expected.
Because, if it is, I think you and your players have a serious communication problem. I'll admit Kali has a few (very few) good things, let me point out the problems and bad things it brought...
1) Tanking. During the last several patches you have improved tanking bit by bit until today, we have reached the point where you cannot kill a ship of your own size within a reasonable timeframe. In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox. I'm inclined to say you finally fixed instapop in fleets, but is the cost of the death of all other forms of PvP worth it?
FIX: Undo ALL hitpoint changes.
1a) Nos. Due to (1) Nosferatu's are the only way to defeat someone. This very fact, puts extreme pressure on ships that need cap to function and greatly boosts passive tanking whereas it already has gotten too good thanks to the changes to extenders and stuff a few builds ago.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
To make things worse, all of this *has been pointed out to you* in the Revelations testing, but you chose to ignore it and go live on TQ anyway.
2) Scanprobes. It used to involve skill finding someone; especially mission runners. While the whole 1au-plane thing has always been dumb, there was something other than skillpoints involved. Today, everything can be found in minutes and the new launchers isn't even on the market.
FIX: Get your old system back and just fix the plane thing so that probes scan the actual globe and not just a disc.
3) Contracts. Seriously, what are you thinking. I admit it's a nice tool for corps and player-drives missions, but it kills BPC trading, kills window shopping (The great strength of Escrow) and the silly regional search thing will make Jita explode. I was 346th in queue last night. How bad does it have to be before you realize regional systems SUCK because players will ALWAYS flock to the best market. I refer to your old Yulai problem that you "fixed" with Cold War. I think it failed, no?
FIX: return escrow and make it exist together with the contract system.
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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dan santhums
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:52:00 -
[2]
remove nos from the game? seriosly put down the pipe
Curse and pilgrims? plus the various faction nos ships become useless.I suppose we could change the bonus to a Cap reduction 1 
You do have some valid points in there, I just dont think the solution is a roll back to how it was
Give it a month or so, and im sure we'll all adapt to the changes
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Sun Ra
Godspeed You Black Emperor
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:52:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux 4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
WTF CCP???
Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas' |

Lorn Yeager
Gallente Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:53:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Lorn Yeager on 01/12/2006 10:55:51 Edited by: Lorn Yeager on 01/12/2006 10:53:55 FIX: Undo ALL hitpoint changes.
Do you understand the reasons for the increase? its exactly to PROLONG combat. So its quite fine that your ganksquad cant kill people in the blink of an eye. But its still doable. Yesterday I killed a ferrox - solo - in a thorax.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
Why? Its a weapon like anything else. Problem with nos is more due to not being hit by tracking or stacking.
FIX: return escrow and make it exist together with the contract system.
No. Its just that simple. But no.
Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
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Davlos
Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:01:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Davlos on 01/12/2006 11:03:50 /signed
My corp has been specialising in small-gang combat, and hit and run. This change has obliterated the way we have been fighting, and proves that the unprofessional developer that Tuxford* is panders to brainless outfits like Goons or RA.
*: Proof - usage of the word "bullsh!t" in dev forum posts, and derision of players. I've worked with unprofessional devs in my time of a playtester, but this takes the cake.
---------------
Davlos Cain 040 |

Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
1) Tanking. During the last several patches you have improved tanking bit by bit until today, we have reached the point where you cannot kill a ship of your own size within a reasonable timeframe. In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox. I'm inclined to say you finally fixed instapop in fleets, but is the cost of the death of all other forms of PvP worth it?
FIX: Undo ALL hitpoint changes.
1a) Nos. Due to (1) Nosferatu's are the only way to defeat someone. This very fact, puts extreme pressure on ships that need cap to function and greatly boosts passive tanking whereas it already has gotten too good thanks to the changes to extenders and stuff a few builds ago.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
Um ... I understand. You were all shooting that Ferox with its *passive* tank using explosive missiles/ammo, then you started nossing it, wondering why it was so hard to kill. :)
*shakes head*
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 01/12/2006 10:47:45 I'm wondering, CCP if Revelations brought what you expected.
Because, if it is, I think you and your players have a serious communication problem. I'll admit Kali has a few (very few) good things, let me point out the problems and bad things it brought...
1) Tanking. During the last several patches you have improved tanking bit by bit until today, we have reached the point where you cannot kill a ship of your own size within a reasonable timeframe. In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox. I'm inclined to say you finally fixed instapop in fleets, but is the cost of the death of all other forms of PvP worth it?
FIX: Undo ALL hitpoint changes.
Small battles actually last long enough for tactics greater than "xxx is primary, spread ecm wide" to exist?
Ships can actually survive long enough for re-inforcements to arrive, meaning that having a mobile reserve is worth while?
ohnoes.
Quote:
1a) Nos. Due to (1) Nosferatu's are the only way to defeat someone. This very fact, puts extreme pressure on ships that need cap to function and greatly boosts passive tanking whereas it already has gotten too good thanks to the changes to extenders and stuff a few builds ago.
FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
The one point i (sorta) agree with. I would be a happy man if nos was removed and neuts were given a wee boost.Lets hope that the (far less radical) proposed stacking nerf/minimum cap immunity for nos goes through
Quote:
2) Scanprobes. It used to involve skill finding someone; especially mission runners. While the whole 1au-plane thing has always been dumb, there was something other than skillpoints involved. Today, everything can be found in minutes and the new launchers isn't even on the market.
More fighting and less hiding sounds good to me.
Quote:
3) Contracts. Seriously, what are you thinking. I admit it's a nice tool for corps and player-drives missions, but it kills BPC trading, kills window shopping (The great strength of Escrow) and the silly regional search thing will make Jita explode. I was 346th in queue last night. How bad does it have to be before you realize regional systems SUCK because players will ALWAYS flock to the best market. I refer to your old Yulai problem that you "fixed" with Cold War. I think it failed, no?
I like the new contract system, but you are right about the annoying effect it is having regarding Jita. Im sure the annoyance factor will soon encourage a boost to alternate trade hubs
Quote:
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
Actually, i am fully capable of forming a fleet and assigning myself as a squadron commander in said fleet. Given that i only have leadership 4 and that testing has showed the bonus from this IS applied to myself (even when solo in the fleet ) and squadron members i would have to question if you bothered to test this at all or just ran around screaming 'teh sky is falling' ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete |

Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lorn Yeager
Do you understand the reasons for the increase? its exactly to PROLONG combat. So its quite fine that your ganksquad cant kill people in the blink of an eye.
QFT. The rest of the changes were made to PROLONG training times (can you say "time sink skills"?).
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:10:00 -
[9]
The indicator for group bonus effect doesn't really work. It is as shaky as the good old revamped online indicator from people&places. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |

arjun
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:11:00 -
[10]
what concerns me deeply is, that 90% of the opinions stated in the gang-change related threads were against the changes in the current form. they were introduced anyway. wake up. not you the devs know what works but we the players do. i personaly find that a little rich against such a huge majority.
solution staded manyfold in the related threads ansd here again: let the gangleader asign 4 people to give boni to the gang. let those 4 people choose their own successor for case of game crash or ship loss.
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Sun Ra
Godspeed You Black Emperor
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nicholai Pestot
Quote:
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
Actually, i am fully capable of forming a fleet and assigning myself as a squadron commander in said fleet. Given that i only have leadership 4 and that testing has showed the bonus from this IS applied to myself (even when solo in the fleet ) and squadron members i would have to question if you bothered to test this at all or just ran around screaming 'teh sky is falling'
thank f*ck for that
Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas' |

Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:13:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 01/12/2006 11:14:56 *edit: darn i'm slow * Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux 4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
ehm, you don't need wing commander lvl 5 to start a fleet(to create a fleet right-click the gang window header -> 'convert to fleet'). The Wing Commander/fleet commander/squad commander skills are there to enable the gang bonus effect for the person in that position (and I believe to enable multiple wings and squads, but you start with 1 fleet with 1 wing with 1 squad). You have leadership 5? you can be squad leader and everyone in your squad gets your gang bonuses. Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |

Ishana
Minmatar The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:15:00 -
[13]
PPFFF
people saying that longer combat means more time for tactics aren't used to PVP. Really if you pvp allot, you know hat is the best tactic and you will use it from the get go. What you have now is orbit/aproach/fly manually around a target, and activate all your modules and wait.... and wait.... and wait... and wait... untill your target, or you, blows up.
on the other hand I do have more time to clean my house and watch tv....
Also the great thing that combat used to bring is now gone... the adrenaline rush...
_________________________________________________________
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Flitz Farseeker
Gallente Eve guardians
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:16:00 -
[14]
1) Maybe look at Ferox's passive tank rather than undoing all changes.
1a) Maybe look at NOS effectiveness rather than removing them from the game.
2) Never got to grips with the old system, not any closer with new system so can't comment on this one. 
3) Agree that it needs some improvements to support some of the old escrow features, not a reversion to the old system.
4) If this is the case, then it does need looking at. However, your skills and ship are only 'worthless' until you train up the new skill. If you already have 2.5 miil in leadership alone, it shouldn't take you too long.
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Di Jiensai
Gallente Myster0ns
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
Not true. I converted our 4 man gang to fleet yesterday, and i have Leadership 3 and nothing much else except skirmish warfare 2 and armored warfare 2.
--- The Story of the Big-Bad-Nos-Domi and the Brutix Selfproclaimed last instance on Rightousness Issues |

Jeanpierre Duvall
Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:17:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jeanpierre Duvall on 01/12/2006 11:21:41 I will only reply to the Contracts thing. And this is what I would like to see in it.
First make items searchable by groups. If I want to know what kind of True sansha mods are out there Then let me search for true sansha and not the title that is "nothing" or TS Med Nos. And please make it sortable by name. I couldn't find how to sort it but that might just be me too.
It would also be good to be able to brows by type. Like BP's, Ships or Mods. Or just Select or remove some of the types from the list. not everyone wants to look at BPC's and some only look for BPC's.
Personaly I find the contracts system much better then the Escrow and really look forward to it. But it needs a bit of spit and polish.
My two pieces of eight.
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ishana
Also the great thing that combat used to bring is now gone... the adrenaline rush...
Time to start flying faction navy BS into pvp?  ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete |

Dupac
Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
SNIP 4) Gang bonuses. To use gang bonuses, you need to convert your gang to a fleet. To convert to a fleet you need Wing Commander lvl 5. That's a rank 5 skill. That basically means my 2,5 million skillpoints trained in leadership are 100% *USELESS*. That also means my Eos is *USELESS*. Also LOL @ Mining Foreman now. Very, very bad call on this one.
FIX: Allow the gangleader to assign 4 people to give gang bonuses; one for each bonus tree.
This is wrong -
small gang with bonuses
A creates gang - invites B A right clicks on gang window and "converts to fleet" A right clicks on own name and "demotes" to squad leader (there will only be one squad by default and B will already be in it as a member) A and B now receive any gang bonus that A provides - you don't need leadership 5 |

slothe
Caldari Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:27:00 -
[19]
i think its to early to criticise anything (even if its obviously wrong) yet. we need to give kali more time. theres been a lot of changes going into this, lets see how it pans out.
its like players complaining about overpriced new ships -they will get cheaper, the difficulty with componants for rigs- they will get easier.
more than i have ever seen in the forums the sky truly is falling.
Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar |

Mathias Orsen
Gold-dust
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox.
That has got to be a joke, If not then you should consider playing First person shooters with "headshot".
-------------------------------------- ---"What's in your wallet?"--- "There are two kinds of respect, fear and admiration.... I'll take what I can get" |

welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:41:00 -
[21]
It's early doors yet but I totally agree with you on the scan probe business Shayla. It used to be a skillful art, practice and patience paid off with faster scan results. Bring back the old method and the system scanner mini map!!
As for the hitpoint increases in some ways I'm liking it, it feels a bit more epic now and battleships take plenty of punishment as you'd expect them to. I think this needs more testing especially in large fleets before we pass judgement.
The gang system is ridiculous, its like learning a new complex part of the game all over again. You don't actually need fleet commander V to start a fleet though, only to get the bonuses (I think). We kind of started a fleet with wing and squad commanders last night :/
I have to say I prefer the new contract thing though, its shiny!
Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
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KowPatt
Caldari 45th TIGERS Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:42:00 -
[22]
Well i think the new patch is good, and that contracts is a good alternative to escrow, apart from the above fore-mentioned window shopping. Remove nos from the game? no, why? And also, you cant insta pop a ferox, even while nossing its passive take (erm, huh?) But now the pop-ee has a chance, give them a break, you cant go round pwning everyone anymore, more challange, its got to be good... or more balanced... i think give it some time, will become normal. ----------------------- 45th Tigers New Zealand Corp www.45thtigers.com |

Shayla Sh'inlux
Gallente The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:46:00 -
[23]
On the gang thing; when I tried to convert my gang to a fleet last wednesday I was told I couldn't do that because I needed to have skill such and such trained.
Dunno what I did wrong then.
Anyway, there's prolonging combat and dragging combat out. The single fact it takes five fully 30+mil skillpoint pilots in various t2 kitted BS and HAC's 45 seconds to kill a t1 shield extender fitted Ferox is completely wrong. Now try the same thing in a Brutix vs that Ferox and watch how you die when your cap charges run out.
Anyone saying otherwise has never PvP'd. Really.
As for the scanprobes, I shoot people. I like having people to shoot. I don't like finding mission runners in 2 minutes with NO skill involved. It's exactly like Ishana says.
Drop probe (requiring IG skills), warp to target. Approach/Orbit (whatever your setup is made to do), activate Nos/no-cap weapons and wait until target dies.
Yeah really exciting. Combat used to give thi big adrenalin rush. You had to do it right the first time around of you'd die. Flying closerange setups took skill. Use manual appraoch, deactivate MWD at the right time and keep transversal low.
Now you have ample time to correct mistakes since it takes ages to die and you have to wait until either combatant has run out of cap. Where is the exciting part here cause I haven't had any exciting fight in Kali so far.
And neither did I have them on Sisi in the testing phase.
Originally by: "Cy4n1d3"
You can't PVP with 4 mids.
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Duncan Storne
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:48:00 -
[24]
Most of your comments are unreasonable, but you have a point about contracts. The new system has potential, but right now it is extremely awkward and user-unfriendly. It needs to be global and it needs to have multiple filtering, sorting, and searching options.
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:55:00 -
[25]
For the people not sure about the whole 'fleet' thing.
There are 6 positions within a fleet
Boss Fleet Commander Wing Commander Squad Commander Squad Member Scout
Boss
The same as the gang leader of old. The boss is responsible for inviting people into the fleet and assigning them their positions. The boss does not have to be a fleet commander and in fact no skills are required to be the 'boss'.
If the boss disconnects anyone can claim the boss position.
Fleet Commander
Anyone can be assigned to the fleet commander position, but without the relevant skills full functionality for that position will not be activated.
With the correct skills the Fleet Commanders leadership bonuses will filter down to the wings/squadrons beneath him.
Wing commander
Same as the fleet commander, but on a smaller scale.With the relevant skills his leadership bonuses will filter down to the squads within his wing.
Squad Commander Same as the fleet commander but his leadership skills only effect people in his squad
Squad Member Cannon fodder to you and me 
Scout This role can be assigned to anyone in a squad. Im not sure what it actually does as i havent had time to test it.
Initial testing seems to show that being able to warp around the people in your fleet/wing/squad is not skill dependent.Also the sub-chat windows for the fleet (wing/squad) will only appear with a properly skilled person in charge of that wing/squad.
By initial testing I mean 'one of my corpies has been playing with it and told me about these last two things' so read into that as you will  ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete |

Kazaam
Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
1a) Nos. Due to (1) Nosferatu's are the only way to defeat someone. This very fact, puts extreme pressure on ships that need cap to function and greatly boosts passive tanking whereas it already has gotten too good thanks to the changes to extenders and stuff a few builds ago. FIX: Remove Nos from the game.
Fix : Set Nos modules to NOT leech anything more under 10-15% cap of the target. _________________________________________
Originally by: Oveur EVE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEAAATHHH !!
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Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Anyway, there's prolonging combat and dragging combat out. The single fact it takes five fully 30+mil skillpoint pilots in various t2 kitted BS and HAC's 45 seconds to kill a t1 shield extender fitted Ferox is completely wrong. Now try the same thing in a Brutix vs that Ferox and watch how you die when your cap charges run out.
Maybe mix some EM damage in there? Passive shields don't do so great vs EM.
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Johnny Bravo
Gallente Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:41:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Johnny Bravo on 01/12/2006 13:42:34 I think CCP did right job on all changes except gang and scan modules. NOS is fine as is, hit point boost was needed, and i could even say they could add more hitpoints than smallish 25% increase. ECM nerf was much needed (allthought other form of EW still need boost, escpeceally TP's). But gang leadership bonuses distributing wasnt done, and new scan system is fubar for low-sec mission runners and any other activity what requires SS hiding.
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Ishana
Minmatar The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:41:00 -
[29]
I was there and I was firing 4 EM torps up his bum with my phoon and using 5 heavy EM drones. Is that enough EM damage for you? _________________________________________________________
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
1) Tanking. During the last several patches you have improved tanking bit by bit until today, we have reached the point where you cannot kill a ship of your own size within a reasonable timeframe. In fact, it's so bad that it takes a fullblown 5-men ganksquad (including 2 HAC's and 2 BS) about 45 seconds to kill a passive tanked Ferox. I'm inclined to say you finally fixed instapop in fleets, but is the cost of the death of all other forms of PvP worth it?
I and many others dont see this as a problem.
Some of your other points were good though. Especially the one about contracts making Jita even more crowded.
Wherever you went - here you are.
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