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Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Step 1: Place a Single Extractor Step 2: Place extractor heads Step 3: Realize that Less Extractor Heads = More Yield When the inverse should be true. Step 4: get trolled by CCP
Keep in mind I am not talking about extractor overlap.
I am talking about a single extractor with heads on it. The number on the dots is not accurate and the bar charts are also not accurate.
Conclusion: Old system was better new system is borked.
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Matalino
3
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Posted - 2011.12.07 22:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
How do you reproduce this issue? What are your Planetology skills? How are you routing the products?
In my experience, the yields displayed in the graphs match with the amount of product delivered to my storage facilities. |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 22:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Matalino wrote:How do you reproduce this issue? What are your Planetology skills? How are you routing the products?
In my experience, the yields displayed in the graphs match with the amount of product delivered to my storage facilities.
Notsureiftrolling.jpg
The Graph fluctuates depending on how many extractor heads you have. Assume the extractor is at the center of a hot spot and all the possible heads would all have the same yield. You will get MORE yield with LESS heads. It's a glitch/exploit I guess.
So basically if you set up several extractors with 3-4 heads you will make more isk then having less extractors with the max amount of heads.
|

arcca jeth
Dark Alliance Dark Empire Alliance
32
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Posted - 2011.12.07 23:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
that's because the hot spots are resources that diminish over time and can only yield a certain production rate for a given amount of time. instead of mining/harvesting one hot spot. find 2 and exploit both |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
arcca jeth wrote:that's because the hot spots are resources that diminish over time and can only yield a certain production rate for a given amount of time. instead of mining/harvesting one hot spot. find 2 and exploit both
You are not listening..
Within a 2 min time period the numbers of the graph change. I feel so frustrated.. I lack the ability to articulate what I am experiencing in a way that you would quickly understand.
I will make a video if nobody else comes forward having experienced this... |

First Lieutenant Dan
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Can I have your monocle? |

Matalino
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:The Graph fluctuates depending on how many extractor heads you have. Assume the extractor is at the center of a hot spot and all the possible heads would all have the same yield. You will get MORE yield with LESS heads. It's a glitch/exploit I guess.
So basically if you set up several extractors with 3-4 heads you will make more isk then having less extractors with the max amount of heads. I still don't understand what issue you are having. Everytime that I have setup my extractors on a character that has max'ed Planetology skills, the estimated output displayed in the graph as been accurate for the amount extracted. As long as the heads do not overlap, adding more heads increases yield.
How are you getting less product with more heads? Can you post screenshots showing less product with more heads? |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Matalino wrote:Xenuria wrote:The Graph fluctuates depending on how many extractor heads you have. Assume the extractor is at the center of a hot spot and all the possible heads would all have the same yield. You will get MORE yield with LESS heads. It's a glitch/exploit I guess.
So basically if you set up several extractors with 3-4 heads you will make more isk then having less extractors with the max amount of heads. I still don't understand what issue you are having. Everytime that I have setup my extractors on a character that has max'ed Planetology skills, the estimated output displayed in the graph as been accurate for the amount extracted. As long as the heads do not overlap, adding more heads increases yield. How are you getting less product with more heads? Can you post screenshots showing less product with more heads?
Sure thing.. I will do that sometime.
I will describe it for you in the mean time.
4 extractor heads yield 6k
I add another extractor head and 6k goes down to 3.5k.. I add a different one it goes up to 11k. I take them all away except 1 I get 9k....
It appears to be more or less random. I will make a detailed video some time tomorrow showing exactly how this is done.
|

Matalino
3
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Posted - 2011.12.07 23:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
What are your Planetology skills at? |

XY Zed
The Place where all good Souls go to die
8
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Posted - 2011.12.07 23:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm fairly sure now that this is just a by product of a quickly replenishing planet where lower rates of extraction will allow for greater rates of replenishment. It's might be possible that a planet has a surplus if no one else has used the planet, so immediately after one extraction cycle the extraction is quickly replaced. |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 23:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Matalino wrote:What are your Planetology skills at?
3... Planetology is at 3 I think..
Command center is at 4...
I never trained into planetology much.
With a low planetology skill I expect the location of hotspots to be off sorts but I did not expect the bar graph to be a blatant bouncy lie. I will make a video shortly ..
One would think that if you have a single extractor and 1 head on it, that a head with a higher rating would yield more..
But it dosent.. Its reversed sometimes. Sometimes a lower rated head yields more.
I will make a video in a bit after I get something to eat and drink. |

Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
247
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Posted - 2011.12.08 00:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
All gameplay mechanics are null and void when you're a guy playing a girl The only warrior on this battlefield who isn't an alt.
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Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
30
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Posted - 2011.12.08 00:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
With that low skills then yes the graph will be all but useless ... sadly |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 00:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:All gameplay mechanics are null and void when you're a guy playing a girl
You obviously do not understand the term Gender Hybrid. I am what I choose to be when I choose to be it. Most of the time I am female.
Also video is uploading.. Get ready to be shocked and horrified at the huge exploit in PI
|

Velicitia
Open Designs
175
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Posted - 2011.12.08 00:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
edit, scratch that ... Xenuria thread...
6/10 for the bites though |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 00:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG1TJg3eVIc
there you go...
Proof that its broken |

Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
159
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 00:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
graphs scale to the highest yield. that's why sometimes it "feels" that the graphs grow when you decrease total output, but in fact if you look at the Y axle, the ammount has decreased to from 100.000 to 80.000 for example. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |

Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
246
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Posted - 2011.12.08 00:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mother of god those colours |

Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
246
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Posted - 2011.12.08 00:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
And grimpak, if you look, the number does increase, it's not just a matter of scale. |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 00:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:And grimpak, if you look, the number does increase, it's not just a matter of scale.
|

Kent Reeves
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 01:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ambiguously gendered demi-god!
o7 |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 01:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Were did that blatantly obvious alt go?
When is this going to be fixed. It's highly exploitable. With practice you can just make several extractors with 1-2 heads and make MASSIVE yields.
Obviously I am not going to make a video of how exactly to do that but trust me it can be done... So CCP should patch or fix this ASAP otherwise the commodity market could become over engorged. |

Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
79
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 02:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Have you checked to make sure if the yields on the graph actually mine the indicated amount?
Yes it will require some math and keeping track of things. But it may be a simple graph issue, whereas the actual yields are correct. |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 02:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Have you checked to make sure if the yields on the graph actually mine the indicated amount?
Yes it will require some math and keeping track of things. But it may be a simple graph issue, whereas the actual yields are correct.
I have in fact checked the yields and can confirm that they are also unpredictable...
|

Matalino
3
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Posted - 2011.12.08 06:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:3... Planetology is at 3 I think. I would suggest that you try training Advanced Planetology to level 3 or 4, then try again. With Planetology 3, I expect that you are getting little more than random numbers for your extractor estimates. It is odd, but certainly not game breaking that the deviation in the estimates is dependent on the number of extractors that you have. |

Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
131
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 06:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Matalino wrote:Doing some testing of my own, I was able to reproduce the issue. However, it only appears to be an issue with stupidly short cycle times. If I increased the cycle time to something longer than 3 hours, I was no longer getting the issue in my case. I would need to test it further to see what the actual cut off point is. However, I expect that you will not have any problems with cycle times of a day or more. Most likely this issue is related to the depletion mechanics when trying to over extract a resource.
So then you are confirming that Xenuria is right, and this is an exploitable action. With stupidly short extraction times, one could easily make a fark-tonne of PI gear and easily become space rich?
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |

Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
219
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 09:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
I sense a patch after downtime today. Nice catch, Xenuria. The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |

Mallikanth
L V B Industries
23
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Posted - 2011.12.08 09:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG1TJg3eVIc
there you go...
Proof that its broken
Good catch.
but PINK????    Believe in what they do, not what they say.
|

Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries Pandorum Invictus
34
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 12:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
Xenuria wrote: Step 4: get trolled by CCP
You achieved this much earlier when you bought that monocle.
|

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
684
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
I have a feeling it's related to the fact that the one you're adding/subtracting is in an area of lower density than the ones you're not touching. That and the extremely low cycle time (expand that to a day or three and see how it goes) seem to be making things misleading.
It would make sense if the graph was providing a visual representation of the average amount of all the heads extracted per unit time as opposed to a total... I wonder if that's a factor in there. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 13:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Maybe this is why the PI commodity market is so bad..
|

Tenchi Sal
Dust Bunnies 514
38
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 14:06:00 -
[32] - Quote
+1 naming a planet after Xenuria. Color that planet pink. |

Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
329
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 15:04:00 -
[33] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mother of god those colours
- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |

Matalino
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 15:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:So then you are confirming that Xenuria is right, and this is an exploitable action. With stupidly short extraction times, one could easily make a fark-tonne of PI gear and easily become space rich? No. I am confirming that sometimes it is ineffective to use more extractor heads when running stupidly short cycle times.
I do not see how this would be exploitable, as you are still subject to reasonable limitations on the total amount of PI goods that you can extract. You could sit there running 1 hour PI cycles. You would need to relocate your extractor heads every few hours as you deplete hot spots. I would not expect it to be worth your time. There are more profitable activities than resetting PI extractors every hour. |

ChromeStriker
The Riot Formation
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 15:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ciar Meara wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Mother of god those colours
..... the colours....  - Nulla Curas |

Amro One
One.
44
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 16:29:00 -
[36] - Quote
Learn some math. |

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
88
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 16:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
I know what you're getting at Xenuria, the same happened back when i first started doing PI 3-4 months ago, and people couldn't grasp it then, not even CCP (despite me sending screenshots spaced 20 seconds apart showing the before/after removing extractor heads).
They had me remove all structures, rebuild, remove all, rebuild on another planet, basically had me jumping through hoops and wasting hours of my time (why they can't just go play around spawning stuff is beyond me, instead i was subjected to the clickfest). After a week or so i basically got a "nothing is wrong" reply and the petition was closed. Really? Nothing is wrong? so what was that week of fault finding and experimentation all about? I raised it on the forums, raised other petitions etc but was met with misunderstanding and denial.
Next patch, the problem mysteriously disappeared, until now.. |

Cloora
APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate
40
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 16:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
Now I'm not a PI pro by any means, I run 48 hour cycles and just use all my alts and lots of planets to brute force making ISK with PI, but isn't the graph a per head amount? Or was I mistaken this whole time and it's a total for all heads? CEO and Major ShareholderAPEX ConglomerateMaker of Starsi softdrinks and Torped-Os! Cereal http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
90

|
Posted - 2011.12.08 17:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
We have investigated this, and we have a positive reproduction of this bug now, so big props for making the video!
I want to take the time to confirm that is not an exploit in which you can get something you otherwise could not. It is a bug and it creates confusion but it is not an exploit.
You will be able to get even more yield by simply moving the relevant extractor head to the hotspot above.
Conclusion: * There is a bug, thanks for pinpointing it! * X extractor heads will always yield more resources than X-1 given that you move the heads to the best possible configuration
Again, thanks for making this video!
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Masheen
C C P C C P Alliance
14

|
Posted - 2011.12.08 17:15:00 -
[40] - Quote
I enjoyed a selection of the other videos on your YouTube channel |
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Camios
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 17:45:00 -
[41] - Quote
I tried to see if this apply to my colonies and it does not. If I place my extractor heads wisely, the total yield increases as the number of heads goes up. |

Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
491
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 17:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Camios wrote:I tried to see if this apply to my colonies and it does not. If I place my extractor heads wisely, the total yield increases as the number of heads goes up.
see page 2
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |

Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
159
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 22:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Lord Zim wrote:And grimpak, if you look, the number does increase, it's not just a matter of scale. then it is, in fact, a bug.
disregard my post. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |

Titania Hrothgar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 22:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
what's "PI"? Titania Hrothgar |

Xenuria
Marcabian 5th Invasion Fleet Hearts And Minds Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 03:42:00 -
[45] - Quote
Titania Hrothgar wrote:what's "PI"? Planetary Interaction, it's basically EVE Farmville except with way better graphics. |

Ammzi
Imperial Guardians Blazing Angels Alliance
171
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 03:52:00 -
[46] - Quote
Xenuria wrote:Titania Hrothgar wrote:what's "PI"? Planetary Interaction, it's basically EVE Farmville except with way better graphics.
Xenuria got trolled. Win!
+1, color a planet pink and give it to xenuria. quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|

Titania Hrothgar
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 04:09:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:Xenuria wrote:Titania Hrothgar wrote:what's "PI"? Planetary Interaction, it's basically EVE Farmville except with way better graphics. Xenuria got trolled. Win! +1, color a planet pink and give it to xenuria.
Trolled? For answering my honest question? You, sir, need to seriously learn the meaning of troll. :)
Titania Hrothgar |

Ammzi
Imperial Guardians Blazing Angels Alliance
172
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 22:21:00 -
[48] - Quote
Titania Hrothgar wrote:Ammzi wrote:Xenuria wrote:Titania Hrothgar wrote:what's "PI"? Planetary Interaction, it's basically EVE Farmville except with way better graphics. Xenuria got trolled. Win! +1, color a planet pink and give it to xenuria. Trolled? For answering my honest question? You, sir, need to seriously learn the meaning of troll. :)
Just because I like to walk outside sometimes to get some trolls and afterwards eat a bit of troll with a sip of troll doesn't mean I don't understand what trolling means! Troll you later, sir! quote CCP Spitfire
"Hello Im Blue,"
|

Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. The Lostboys
176
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 00:46:00 -
[49] - Quote
Matalino wrote:Doing some testing of my own, I was able to reproduce the issue. However, it only appears to be an issue with stupidly short cycle times. If I increased the cycle time to something longer than 3 hours, I was no longer getting the issue in my case. I would need to test it further to see what the actual cut off point is. However, I expect that you will not have any problems with cycle times of a day or more. Most likely this issue is related to the depletion mechanics when trying to over extract a resource.
Ah thats it. There is some randomness tossed in, most easily seen if you set a really long cycle time and look at how the plot has spikes in it.
It would appear that if you take advantage of that randomness, which seems to depend on what extractors are out, you can get good yield. It is odd that the random amount extractor head #1 gets depends on if head#2 exists or not.... That seems to be the bug.
Oh and CCP, as long as you are looking into PI bugs, I tried to import 6000 units of P2 to a planet and got:
"9000 units of space would be required to complete this operation. Destination container only has 10000 units available."
Bug report 122307. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
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