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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2966
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Posted - 2015.07.18 11:42:31 -
[31] - Quote
Power creep in the most basic of styles where everything just gets stronger to keep up with the strongest or any new content is always better than current, that is bad.
Simply buffing a ship because it is outclassed from things it is supposed to outclass I would not define as power creep, rather as just balance.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Jeanne Tivianne
73
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Posted - 2015.07.18 12:14:07 -
[32] - Quote
This thread is too smart for me, I don't know jack about balance or power creep. I cloak and sometimes I uncloak to shoot things.
Anyway, just posting to say it's been a good read so far, even if I don't really understand the way the words are arranged or the point they are supposed to make. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1671
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Posted - 2015.07.18 12:22:35 -
[33] - Quote
The answer is, it depends.
If the current high powered T3D & cruiser sized hulls is viewed as intended/desirable then a certain amount of creep MUST occur, else the "desired" meta of smaller hulls has to be nerfed which by definition would be undesirable.
If the current crusier sized and under ship power levels are not intended/desired then....no creep is needed and a nerf is required.
Either way, it all pivots around the small ship meta and their relative power next to intentions. |
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
1579
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Posted - 2015.07.18 12:49:39 -
[34] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:The ship meta needs to be fixed and in order to fix it, power creep is a necessary evil.
BCs are in a bad place, BSes are in a place where BCs should be.
CCP and the playerbase are so strongly against the idea of allowing power to flow as it should.
I've made this thread because I feel power creep is currently necessary in order to fix ship meta, I want to hear arguments against the idea of power creep.
BC have no role. There used to be a thing called anti-support and anti-anti-support which BC hulls were good for. Then every doctrine became cruisers zooming around at 1000 m/s which obviously BC have no use in. Maybe if this meta was fixed it would then bring back BC, rather than just buffing every hull to OP levels one after another all the time. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
1991
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Posted - 2015.07.18 13:16:48 -
[35] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:... Is power creep really a bad thing? ... Yes.
In your original post you are not talking about power creep.
The general design where battleship beat battle cruiser which beat cruiser et cetera and then multiple frigates could beat battleships, meaning they should fly with support, was sound.
Generally, battlecruisers are not too bad, the boost to warp speed seems to have slipped by unnoticed.
Command ships are a very long training time now.
There are no real T2 battlecruisers and battleships in the same way as cruisers (which would have been a better idea than T3 destroyers), so remember you are comparing T1 ships to T2 and T3.
That a T3 cruiser can be more powerful than a battleship, which is two classes above it or where T3Ds are only really countered by other T3Ds; THAT is power creep and that is broken.
(... for those who haven't seen it else where and will ask "but what do you expect of T3s? The answer is that they should be about utility rather than power).
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
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High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow
Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
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Omega Capsuleer
Order of Cut-Throats
0
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Posted - 2015.07.18 13:31:22 -
[36] - Quote
Low end power creep is not bad.
High end power creep is.
Just my opinion. |
Angelica Dreamstar
Miner's House of ill repute
1050
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Posted - 2015.07.18 13:42:53 -
[37] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Riot Girl wrote:... Is power creep really a bad thing? ... Yes. In your original post you are not talking about power creep. The general design where battleship beat battle cruiser which beat cruiser et cetera and then multiple frigates could beat battleships, meaning they should fly with support, was sound. Generally, battlecruisers are not too bad, the boost to warp speed seems to have slipped by unnoticed. Command ships are a very long training time now. There are no real T2 battlecruisers and battleships in the same way as cruisers (which would have been a better idea than T3 destroyers), so remember you are comparing T1 ships to T2 and T3. That a T3 cruiser can be more powerful than a battleship, which is two classes above it or where T3Ds are only really countered by other T3Ds; THAT is power creep and that is broken. (... for those who haven't seen it else where and will ask "but what do you expect of T3s?" The answer is that they should be about utility rather than power).
This reminds me of that pancake ship, I forgot the name. There was a frigate, I think a cruiser and a battleship. It feels like CCP is baiting idiots cash-cows with feelings of power and superiority.
"People need to realise that saying "someone else will do it" also mean that other someone else might be thinking the exact same thing..."
-- Frostys Virpio, very attentive person, thoughtful, smart responses. Understands self responsibility.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1992
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Posted - 2015.07.18 14:11:41 -
[38] - Quote
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:... This reminds me of that pancake ship, I forgot the name. There was a frigate, I think a cruiser and a battleship. It feels like CCP is baiting idiots cash-cows with feelings of power and superiority. Armour Barghest fit to long range tackle is rather insane.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
.
High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow
Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
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Angelica Dreamstar
Miner's House of ill repute
1055
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Posted - 2015.07.18 16:19:56 -
[39] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Angelica Dreamstar wrote:... This reminds me of that pancake ship, I forgot the name. There was a frigate, I think a cruiser and a battleship. It feels like CCP is baiting idiots cash-cows with feelings of power and superiority. Armour Barghest fit to long range tackle is rather insane.
Yeah that one and the other tofu.
"People need to realise that saying "someone else will do it" also mean that other someone else might be thinking the exact same thing..."
-- Frostys Virpio, very attentive person, thoughtful, smart responses. Understands self responsibility.
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Minister of Death
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
76
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Posted - 2015.07.18 21:02:17 -
[40] - Quote
T3BS!!! T3DS is so damn fun, it makes sense that T3BS would be "funner" yet. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS X
284
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Posted - 2015.07.19 03:25:52 -
[41] - Quote
WOW, uses power creep as a game feature and numbers got so out of hand the had to backaway from the idea (well as much as they could in a game mechanic so core to the game).
As, you probably know WOW is two years younger than EVE and they hit this problem already, if EVE had done the same we would be doing 150,000 dps in reapers and all you get is the need for more computational power and numbers so large they just become stupid.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2279
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Posted - 2015.07.19 04:32:26 -
[42] - Quote
Power creep is always bad. By definition. Since Power creep is the constant unpwards spiral of power that occurs if you only buff to fix balance, then have to buff again to fix the previous buff.
Buffing an under-performing hull is not power creep. It's just a part of balancing.
It only becomes power creep if they buff it too far, then buff everything else to catch up and something else goes too far and it enters the endless buff cycle.
Basically, learn what words mean. |
Valkin Mordirc
1258
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Posted - 2015.07.19 04:55:57 -
[43] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw
#DeleteTheWeak
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
11254
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Posted - 2015.07.19 05:48:09 -
[44] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:WOW, uses power creep as a game feature and numbers got so out of hand the had to backaway from the idea (well as much as they could in a game mechanic so core to the game).
As, you probably know WOW is two years younger than EVE and they hit this problem already, if EVE had done the same we would be doing 150,000 dps in reapers and all you get is the need for more computational power and numbers so large they just become stupid.
I don't know about WoW, but GW2 did the same thing. You can pretty much kill a world boss/dragon with a box of rusty butter knives. I think they did that to attract WoW players so to gamble big monies in their item shop.
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2322
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Posted - 2015.07.19 08:48:27 -
[45] - Quote
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:Kestral Anneto wrote:There has been to much power creep as it is, the entire thing needs reoworked if you ask me.
A frig should get owned by a destroyer,
a destroyer should get owned by a cruiser,
a cruiser should get owned by a battlecruiser
and a battlecruiser should get owned by a Battleship. Yeah, clearly you know all about balance! Did you EVER actually shoot anyone?
Actually the poster is correct. This is how the original game was designed and intended to be played. Unintended design flaws cause the devs to make changes that resulted in further Unintended flaws. A viscous cycle of change new flaw ensued which resulted in the devs losing a grip on the original game design and rather than developer driven design it became more like flaw / fix driven design. A few of the design changes were also driven by unidentified opportunity (alliances / sov) but the reality is the game was originally planned along the eve hulls size and power matching historical Terran naval units size and power.
CCP Fozzie GǣWe can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-tonGǪ in null sec anomalies. Gǣ*
Kaalrus pwned..... :)
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1208
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Posted - 2015.07.19 12:01:46 -
[46] - Quote
Kestral Anneto wrote:There has been to much power creep as it is, the entire thing needs reoworked if you ask me.
A frig should get owned by a destroyer,
a destroyer should get owned by a cruiser,
a cruiser should get owned by a battlecruiser
and a battlecruiser should get owned by a Battleship.
Check on A
Check on B
Check on C
Check on D
Hey, true in all cases already :D
Svipul beats wolf, rupture kills svipul, hurricanes kills rupture, tempest kills cane. Easy.
I better ignore Guristas and Mordus ships, though. |
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