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Is power creep really a bad thing?

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Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3825	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:33:13 - [1] - Quote The ship meta needs to be fixed and in order to fix it, power creep is a necessary evil. BCs are in a bad place, BSes are in a place where BCs should be. CCP and the playerbase are so strongly against the idea of allowing power to flow as it should. I've made this thread because I feel power creep is currently necessary in order to fix ship meta, I want to hear arguments against the idea of power creep. Oh god.
Globby Cohenberg's Ethical Hauling CODE. 95	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:34:23 - [2] - Quote nah
Angelica Dreamstar Miner's House of ill repute 1043	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:39:33 - [3] - Quote Riot Girl wrote: The ship meta needs to be fixed and in order to fix it, power creep is a necessary evil. BCs are in a bad place, BSes are in a place where BCs should be. CCP and the playerbase are so strongly against the idea of allowing power to flow as it should. I've made this thread because I feel power creep is currently necessary in order to fix ship meta, I want to hear arguments against the idea of power creep. I really like your picture! I don't know enough about this to form an opinion, but at least I admit it and don't ignore it, like most posters below! "People need to realise that saying "someone else will do it" also mean that other someone else might be thinking the exact same thing..." -- Frostys Virpio, very attentive person, thoughtful, smart responses. Understands self responsibility.
Renegade Heart Carebear Miners R Us 492	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:39:42 - [4] - Quote Riot Girl wrote: BCs are in a bad place Nobody wins a fight with a BC that is just craziness! Talos DPS needs a buff. Myrms needs more tank so it can bait better. Nado needs more alpha. Ferox fleets are just silliness. I am sure we can come up with many more examples of how these ships suck! But I still want to bring my drake. I like drakes.
Yarda Black Militaris Industries Northern Coalition. 773	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:41:41 - [5] - Quote Angelica Dreamstar wrote: I really like your picture! I don't know enough about this to form an opinion, but at least I admit it and don't ignore it, like most posters below! I made three attempts at a reply out of courtesy to the OP. But all three times I had to admit that I dont understand the post well enough to add anything usefull. Until now! Yay! I posted! Below you tho.... :(
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3829	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:41:44 - [6] - Quote Renegade Heart wrote: Talos DPS needs a buff. Talos is the only ABC that gets a flight of small drones. Oh god.
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3829	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:43:26 - [7] - Quote Yarda Black wrote: Angelica Dreamstar wrote: I really like your picture! I don't know enough about this to form an opinion, but at least I admit it and don't ignore it, like most posters below! I made three attempts at a reply out of courtesy to the OP. But all three times I had to admit that I dont understand the post well enough to add anything usefull. Until now! Yay! I posted! Below you tho.... :( dw yarda, i acknowledge your posts :3 Oh god.
Avaelica Kuershin Paper Cats 201	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:53:30 - [8] - Quote Riot Girl wrote: The ship meta needs to be fixed and in order to fix it, power creep is a necessary evil. BCs are in a bad place, BSes are in a place where BCs should be. CCP and the playerbase are so strongly against the idea of allowing power to flow as it should. I've made this thread because I feel power creep is currently necessary in order to fix ship meta, I want to hear arguments against the idea of power creep. In a bad place compared with T1 smaller ships, or with regard the T2 and T3 smaller ships? I had though that GÇÿpower creepGÇÖ in EVE related to the relative power of T2 (or T3) compared to the T1 hulls. Once you have T2 cruisers, is there any point in BCs?
Do Little Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 51	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:53:59 - [9] - Quote Power creep is inevitable - using nerfs to restore balance isn't popular even if it is obviously the right choice. The problem with power creep is that you don't restore balance - you just move the problem somewhere else. If the Talos gets more DPS, should freighters get more EHP? How about the gate guns - should they be buffed to restore their original capability? When you toss a rock in the pond, it isn't just about the splash - you need to chase the ripples.
Renegade Heart Carebear Miners R Us 493	Posted - 2015.07.18 09:59:56 - [10] - Quote Avaelica Kuershin wrote: Once you have T2 cruisers, is there any point in BCs? One time I blapped a cocky deimos pilot in my cane (after the cane got nerfed). I could fly all the T2 cruisers but he might have feared those if I undocked in one. He certainly thought he could take my cane out, starting his attack the instant i undocked. Now for others, this might mean nothing, since they might not do things like I do, but I am happy my cane won! I might add I've seen someone baiting in a Talos take out a Vindi too. Sure he had logi and bumpers helping him, but it was still quite awesome.
Barrogh Habalu Forever Winter Absolute Zero. 933	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:00:59 - [11] - Quote Not always, but depends on where you start and what you are doing. If power creep is caused by certain character / tool / archetype / strategy ("toolset") stands out because it allows player to adapt and setup variety of options with some foresight and skill to get upper hand against other bland and boring toolsets, then maaaybe it's where others should be instead of OP one being out of place. If something becomes strong because it has one oppressive gameplan that couldn't care less about whatever opponent is trying to do, then it's probably not correct direction to go. Just keep in mind that if every toolset allows a ton of options and styles, then they probably will start overlapping, causing lose of diversity, which is often the goal behind asymmetrical balance in the first place.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Lethal Intent. 4448	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:05:43 - [12] - Quote Riot Girl wrote: I've made this thread because I feel power creep is currently necessary in order to fix ship meta, I want to hear arguments against the idea of power creep. you're asking people to argue against your position but you haven't actually talked about it it's an unfair expectation
Renegade Heart Carebear Miners R Us 494	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:09:42 - [13] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Riot Girl wrote: I've made this thread because I feel power creep is currently necessary in order to fix ship meta, I want to hear arguments against the idea of power creep. you're asking people to argue against your position but you haven't actually talked about it it's an unfair expectation You must have missed the bit where it was stated that "BCs are in a bad place". If you can't argue against this, then I take it you agree with it? In that case, I hope you don't lose something you treasure to a BC you've underestimated
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3831	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:10:34 - [14] - Quote That's because my position is very unorthodox and as soon as I mention it, people are gonna jump down my throat and bust my guts out. Oh god.
Webvan All Kill No Skill 11191	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:17:26 - [15] - Quote I don't think power creep is the same as balance though. So in that, no. Doesn't mean some ships can't be a little stronger in ways, pref different ways, but that it balances out with other ships as they should as well as with the environment, their true intention. Power creep in games I've seen means a select class, gear or whatnot is bumped up in advantage over others, or all bumped up against the environment were say here rats seem much weaker. Power creep, gear progression, or... er like special classes designed to be overpowered the word escapes me. Like privileged classes. Example would be like Jedi in SWG, but their compensation for being OP was perma-death which bounty hunters were given full opportunity to enforce hehe. Oh prestige class, yep. I favor balance. That is a challenge though in a pvp/pve environment, if taken seriously. In some cases, new things dropped into a game can be OP and not fit, for one reason or another but sometimes that reason is "hey look at we just made, isn't it glorious?". More of a PR thing I think, and when it wears down it gets nerfed. That stuff may get a pass in a level progression themepark, but imo not so welcome in a openworld sandbox simulator. Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3831	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:28:00 - [16] - Quote Ship balance is impeded by the PvE meta. Webvan I usually appreciate your posts but today, you have been drinking. Oh god.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Lethal Intent. 4448	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:29:09 - [17] - Quote Renegade Heart wrote: You must have missed the bit where it was stated that "BCs are in a bad place". If you can't argue against this, then I take it you agree with it? that's not an argument Quote: That's because my position is very unorthodox and as soon as I mention it, people are gonna jump down my throat and bust my guts out. but you asked people to argue against it. how can anyone look at your idea if it's not presented if it can't stand to scrutiny it's not even worth pretending the idea is solid
Renegade Heart Carebear Miners R Us 494	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:31:27 - [18] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Renegade Heart wrote: You must have missed the bit where it was stated that "BCs are in a bad place". If you can't argue against this, then I take it you agree with it? that's not an argument Indeed. However, it is a position, which you can argue against being correct, if you could be bothered.
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3831	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:34:45 - [19] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: you asked people to argue against it. how can anyone look at your idea if it's not presented if it can't stand to scrutiny it's not even worth pretending the idea is solid Thanks for making my point. I made this thread to scrutinise the philosophy behind anti-power creep mentality. This is the existing idea I'm challenging. You're telling me to challenge my own idea before it exists rather than challenging the existing mentality. Oh god.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Lethal Intent. 4448	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:35:00 - [20] - Quote Renegade Heart wrote: Indeed. However, it is a position, which you can argue against being correct, if you could be bothered. the thread's about 'convince me this idea is better than this idea'. it can't be done without detailing the advantages of the second idea the op says 'power creep is necessary' twice and asks to be convinced otherwise. it's not fair to expect someone to argue like that when they don't know what the other idea is
Renegade Heart Carebear Miners R Us 494	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:37:08 - [21] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Renegade Heart wrote: Indeed. However, it is a position, which you can argue against being correct, if you could be bothered. the thread's about 'convince me this idea is better than this idea'. it can't be done without detailing the advantages of the second idea the op says 'power creep is necessary' twice and asks to be convinced otherwise. it's not fair to expect someone to argue like that when they don't know what the other idea is I think it is fair. I've enjoyed the opportunity presented by OP for me to chime in with some rambling nonsense here too. Do you have anything constructive to say though? [edit] In case I've completely missed the point of the thread, I just want to say that I like drakes that much, I had to chime in because of the idea of someone thinking "BCs are in a bad place". Drakes are really cool.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Lethal Intent. 4448	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:49:29 - [22] - Quote Renegade Heart wrote: Do you have anything constructive to say though? i have been sincere and polite in expressing concern to the op your posts are hostile
Webvan All Kill No Skill 11192	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:52:15 - [23] - Quote Riot Girl wrote: Ship balance is impeded by the PvE meta. Webvan I usually appreciate your posts but today, you have been drinking. They have tooled with it some, such as giving rats better AI and EWAR usage etc. Like I said, difficulty is balancing in an environment with pve/pvp, having both that is. It's more of an AI issue as far as pve, though still could never get close to human ability which is what usually brings me or us to games with or about pvp. That's also a design issue, to what CCP is more compelled to lean towards when they start dropping weight onto the balances; more onto pve or onto pvp, yes it doesn't always translate to equal balance... though it could. Never seen it though, not optimal and a never ending maze. But as was said in an earlier post I agree with, power creep only pushes the problem forward etc. Personally I don't think people have problems with nerfs if it's obvious something needs a nerf. The rest thrive for getting into the most OP ship as it happens and then get all upset when it finally gets balanced or nerfed as it should. Wat? I drink every night Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Renegade Heart Carebear Miners R Us 494	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:54:23 - [24] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Renegade Heart wrote: Do you have anything constructive to say though? i have been sincere and polite in expressing concern to the op your posts are hostile In other words, you don't like where I pointed out where you might have been wrong. I think I was sincere and polite enough to you, but if you feel this way, it's better I don't waste my time with this anymore. Enjoy the thread dude.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Lethal Intent. 4449	Posted - 2015.07.18 10:58:55 - [25] - Quote Renegade Heart wrote: In other words, you don't like where I pointed out where you might have been wrong. no, that's not what i said
Angelica Dreamstar Miner's House of ill repute 1047	Posted - 2015.07.18 11:02:06 - [26] - Quote Stop it, you children. Make your own thread, if you want to argue. Now go clean up your rooms! "People need to realise that saying "someone else will do it" also mean that other someone else might be thinking the exact same thing..." -- Frostys Virpio, very attentive person, thoughtful, smart responses. Understands self responsibility.
Renegade Heart Carebear Miners R Us 495	Posted - 2015.07.18 11:02:57 - [27] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Renegade Heart wrote: In other words, you don't like where I pointed out where you might have been wrong. no, that's not what i said Ok sorry. Ignore me. It's cool. I have nothing further to add! Apart from that drakes are the best. Everyone should learn to love the awesome ship that is the drake.
Kestral Anneto The Founding Four Fidelas Constans 92	Posted - 2015.07.18 11:17:19 - [28] - Quote There has been to much power creep as it is, the entire thing needs reoworked if you ask me. A frig should get owned by a destroyer, a destroyer should get owned by a cruiser, a cruiser should get owned by a battlecruiser and a battlecruiser should get owned by a Battleship. (capitals are somethign else entirely.) the only time this should not happen is when the smaller hulls have numbers on there side. T2 ships should be more specialised, so they are not the "I win" that they are now. Because of CCP and their infinite wisdom, we now have a situation where cruisers are the go to hull class for fleets, big or small. This should not happen, Battleships should be the backbone of any fleet, with a mixture of other hull classes being mixed in to make a decent fleet comp, not "max tengu's" or "max cerbs". There is no point even talking about this, however, as we all know that CCP will not move away from their crusade to dumb down EvE and keep it Cruisers Online. Sure, they may say that they are going to do X, Y or Z, but they wont do what is needed. This picture is getting spread until Fozzie come down and rolls back the FozzieSov http://puu.sh/j0jX9/92e94d8a2d.jpg
Commander Spurty Dimension Door We need wards. 1518	Posted - 2015.07.18 11:30:41 - [29] - Quote Blobs take all your logic and poo all over it. You name the hull, I'll name the blob that will counter it. I'd also leave 'ISK EFFICIENCY' off the table. Blobs are immune to that sort of thinking. There are good ships And wood ships And ships that sail the sea But the best ships are Spaceships Built by CCP
Angelica Dreamstar Miner's House of ill repute 1048	Posted - 2015.07.18 11:33:10 - [30] - Quote Kestral Anneto wrote: There has been to much power creep as it is, the entire thing needs reoworked if you ask me. A frig should get owned by a destroyer, a destroyer should get owned by a cruiser, a cruiser should get owned by a battlecruiser and a battlecruiser should get owned by a Battleship. Yeah, clearly you know all about balance! Did you EVER actually shoot anyone? "People need to realise that saying "someone else will do it" also mean that other someone else might be thinking the exact same thing..." -- Frostys Virpio, very attentive person, thoughtful, smart responses. Understands self responsibility.

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