| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Black Scorpio
   |
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:43:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Harisdrop
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 17:39:48
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 17:39:10
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Quote:
Just because there is a feeling that your are doing PVE does that mean you are. Do you not understand that doing mission effect all players. As you gain isk LP and loot, this alone effects all players in EVE. Standings today is a personal effect but factions will change that. What effects everyone in EVE is considered PVP. Your little mission matters to me. You might put something on the market that allows me to kill someone else. If he can get it before it can get to me he is better off and changed history.
So here then, there is your form of PvP in PvE (missions) you don't need more of it!
In your example, I do not see how griefing helps either (PvE or PvP)
The only griefing that could happen is if there is not recourse to the players actions. If its an NPC corporation player then that would be griefing.Soo if NPC corporation player cant fly Capital ships, BS, Tech II or mining barges I think we would remove all griefing.
And what happens if anyone is leaving a corp? They all of a sudden can't fly their ships? How about the lame 1 day corporations that will come to life with this one purpose? If you wardec him, he just goes back to old corp, or creates a new one..
|
Harisdrop
Gallente
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:46:00 -
[32]
You miss the point its not that you want PVP. You dont want someone killing your NPC. Thats the only reason this and the other numerous threads where created.
Its ok to scan probe your location and steal your npc rats by killing them. The person that kills the rats gets the loot.
There has to be a recourse otherwise its griefing.
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
|
Dreamdancer
Minmatar
Ceryshen Strategic Analysis
Vanu Space Command
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:47:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 17:39:48
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 17:39:10
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Quote:
Just because there is a feeling that your are doing PVE does that mean you are. Do you not understand that doing mission effect all players. As you gain isk LP and loot, this alone effects all players in EVE. Standings today is a personal effect but factions will change that. What effects everyone in EVE is considered PVP. Your little mission matters to me. You might put something on the market that allows me to kill someone else. If he can get it before it can get to me he is better off and changed history.
So here then, there is your form of PvP in PvE (missions) you don't need more of it!
In your example, I do not see how griefing helps either (PvE or PvP)
The only griefing that could happen is if there is not recourse to the players actions. If its an NPC corporation player then that would be griefing.Soo if NPC corporation player cant fly Capital ships, BS, Tech II or mining barges I think we would remove all griefing.
Sadly not really. It would remove the stealing of mission loot most likely, but it would do nothing to stop someone from agroing the room in a cheap ship and warping out or losing the cheap ship while the mission runner gets killed in his T2 fitted ship.
Also you drop into an NPC corp when you switch corps. How would that be dealt with? I have T2 ships, mining barges and BS's. I drop into an npc corp cause I don't like the corp I am in and lose all that? Or not be able to fly it? What if I don't have a corp to join right away? Looking for a good corp is difficult.
It works for new players, but it won't work with older players and I see plenty of older players who are gonna do this kind of pvp/griefing.
We are recruiting! |
Harisdrop
Gallente
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:48:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 17:49:16
Originally by: Black Scorpio
And what happens if anyone is leaving a corp? They all of a sudden can't fly their ships? How about the lame 1 day corporations that will come to life with this one purpose? If you wardec him, he just goes back to old corp, or creates a new one..
Griefing is griefing. NPC corps harbor griefers. Bad NPC corps. They should have noob corps. and you cant leave a player corp unless your going into another player corp. You can always start a one man corp without any skills. You just cant hire anyone.
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
|
Dreamdancer
Minmatar
Ceryshen Strategic Analysis
Vanu Space Command
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:50:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Originally by: Black Scorpio
And what happens if anyone is leaving a corp? They all of a sudden can't fly their ships? How about the lame 1 day corporations that will come to life with this one purpose? If you wardec him, he just goes back to old corp, or creates a new one..
Griefing is griefing. NPC corps harbor griefers. Bad NPC corps. They should have noob corps. and you cant leave a player corp unless your going into another player corp.
oooo no that no good. There's plenty of terrible player corps and you don't want to trap people in such a corp just cause they don't have a decent corp to go to.
We are recruiting! |
Arondor
GalacTECH Unlimited
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:55:00 -
[36]
Black Scorpio..
if you are talking about running missions in >0.5 I emi-agree with you, the second you step into low sec space, you should be ready to fight and nowhere, and I repeat nowhere should be 100% safe.
If you don't want people to shoot you, you have to plan for that, bring friends, fit to deter it or take your chances. If scan probing out complexes is too easy- in your opinion, that is a debateable issue, but the fact that mission runners can be killed in low sec when they stay relatively stationary for upwards of several hours (estimated from your post) seems completelly and totaly reasonable
|
Harisdrop
Gallente
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:55:00 -
[37]
You think NPC corporations are better for what reason. Some safe haven to mull over.
I think if you choose to take a step into the large game of EVE you now can play in a larger corp with more ability for more exp in EVE.
I dont like NPC corporations ability to grief with no recourse.
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
|
welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:55:00 -
[38]
Have to say I agree with the op but for different reasons.
Probing is far too simplistic now, the old method was much better (in my opinion).
Originally by: anonymous
If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
|
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:59:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 17:49:16
Originally by: Black Scorpio
And what happens if anyone is leaving a corp? They all of a sudden can't fly their ships? How about the lame 1 day corporations that will come to life with this one purpose? If you wardec him, he just goes back to old corp, or creates a new one..
Griefing is griefing. NPC corps harbor griefers. Bad NPC corps. They should have noob corps. and you cant leave a player corp unless your going into another player corp. You can always start a one man corp without any skills. You just cant hire anyone.
People won't be "Hiring" in these corps, it will serve the purpose of killing other people stuff without a recourse of being war decced while he/she can easily recreate and move to another corp. Would you like to waste 8 mil every day wardeccing a different corp? I know i wont.
|
Dreamdancer
Minmatar
Ceryshen Strategic Analysis
Vanu Space Command
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 17:59:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Harisdrop
You think NPC corporations are better for what reason. Some safe haven to mull over.
I think if you choose to take a step into the large game of EVE you now can play in a larger corp with more ability for more exp in EVE.
I dont like NPC corporations ability to grief with no recourse.
LOL! No no no I don't like npc corp either. Look under my name. You see I am in a corp and in an alliance even. I'm all for joining player corps, but forcing people into bad corps or trapping them there would be bad.
We are recruiting! |
Harisdrop
Gallente
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:00:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Harisdrop
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 17:49:16
Originally by: Black Scorpio
And what happens if anyone is leaving a corp? They all of a sudden can't fly their ships? How about the lame 1 day corporations that will come to life with this one purpose? If you wardec him, he just goes back to old corp, or creates a new one..
Griefing is griefing. NPC corps harbor griefers. Bad NPC corps. They should have noob corps. and you cant leave a player corp unless your going into another player corp. You can always start a one man corp without any skills. You just cant hire anyone.
People won't be "Hiring" in these corps, it will serve the purpose of killing other people stuff without a recourse of being war decced while he/she can easily recreate and move to another corp. Would you like to waste 8 mil every day wardeccing a different corp? I know i wont.
You can petition that.
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
|
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:03:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Arondor
Black Scorpio..
if you are talking about running missions in >0.5 I emi-agree with you, the second you step into low sec space, you should be ready to fight and nowhere, and I repeat nowhere should be 100% safe.
If you don't want people to shoot you, you have to plan for that, bring friends, fit to deter it or take your chances. If scan probing out complexes is too easy- in your opinion, that is a debateable issue, but the fact that mission runners can be killed in low sec when they stay relatively stationary for upwards of several hours (estimated from your post) seems completelly and totaly reasonable
I agree that mission runners need not be 100% safe in low sec, as it is low sec. I am saying that there should be mechanisms to defend against that , right now in 3 min of your mission start you can be found out with almost no way to escape. Having friends does not help for 2 reasons.
1. The other party also having (usually more) friends because they are the attacker and
2. Because it's a waste of your peeps time if noone actually scans you
There were ideas offered such as using hacking to get throught the mission gate as well as a warning to the person in complex that the gate is being tampered with. Then a PvP is a viable and a more or less fair game. Also there could be another scanner (mission gate scanner or whatever) to show you just scans of mission gate.
|
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:04:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Harisdrop
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 17:49:16
Originally by: Black Scorpio
And what happens if anyone is leaving a corp? They all of a sudden can't fly their ships? How about the lame 1 day corporations that will come to life with this one purpose? If you wardec him, he just goes back to old corp, or creates a new one..
Griefing is griefing. NPC corps harbor griefers. Bad NPC corps. They should have noob corps. and you cant leave a player corp unless your going into another player corp. You can always start a one man corp without any skills. You just cant hire anyone.
People won't be "Hiring" in these corps, it will serve the purpose of killing other people stuff without a recourse of being war decced while he/she can easily recreate and move to another corp. Would you like to waste 8 mil every day wardeccing a different corp? I know i wont.
You can petition that.
And we all know that it WILL work to deter such behavior.. uh um... 
|
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:05:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Harisdrop
You think NPC corporations are better for what reason. Some safe haven to mull over.
I think if you choose to take a step into the large game of EVE you now can play in a larger corp with more ability for more exp in EVE.
I dont like NPC corporations ability to grief with no recourse.
Dude I agree with you, however the point you are pushing through is a part of another post. Its a free forum.. post your own topic
|
Rudolf Miller
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:09:00 -
[45]
The solution is simple, all it takes it a statement from CCP:
'The intentional interference in a deadspace agent mission will be treated as an exploit'
|
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:11:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Rudolf Miller
The solution is simple, all it takes it a statement from CCP:
'The intentional interference in a deadspace agent mission will be treated as an exploit'
hehe  
|
Sonlatur
Minmatar
Matari Raiders
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:15:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Person (i hate terms pirate/carebears, all people do both) scans a complex, he gets at a gate, that is locked to him (i.e. only unlocked to mission owner and gang), he needs to use advanced hacking (Chance base again) at *****ing the gate key unlocked. As he does that a message is displayed to the mission owner that the mission gate is being compromised. He than has the chance to go back and refit for PvP or act of his free will.
What about miners? What about ratters? What about lowsec traders? Why do mission runners always have to be extra safe?
--
"Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible." |
Pakalolo
Tha Shiznit
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:22:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Remove access to NPC corporation players to Capital ships, BS, tech II ships, and mining barges.
now there's an idea I can fully support
ontopic: mission runners will adapt to the new mechanics. start figuring out how you will.
|
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:33:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Sonlatur
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Person (i hate terms pirate/carebears, all people do both) scans a complex, he gets at a gate, that is locked to him (i.e. only unlocked to mission owner and gang), he needs to use advanced hacking (Chance base again) at *****ing the gate key unlocked. As he does that a message is displayed to the mission owner that the mission gate is being compromised. He than has the chance to go back and refit for PvP or act of his free will.
What about miners? What about ratters? What about lowsec traders? Why do mission runners always have to be extra safe?
There is a list of items i posted that differ Mission running to say NPC ratting, please read above..
|
Rudolf Miller
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:36:00 -
[50]
It is wonderful to see topics slanted to unrelated agendas.
Mission runner aren't complaining about their safety. They are compaining about outside interference in combat missions. I could interfer with a mission in a frigate. So the type of ship is really irrelevant.
Why were deadspace missions created? As I seem to remember, it was to eliminate outside interference in combat missions. That is how it should be regardless of you progrssion or alignment in the game.
|
Sonlatur
Minmatar
Matari Raiders
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:39:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
There is a list of items i posted that differ Mission running to say NPC ratting, please read above..
Because you can loose standing PVP for mission runners should be completely consentual? I think not.
And tell you what: You can loose faction standing while running missions, because you can also GAIN faction standing from running missions.
Miner dont gain faction standing and dont loose faction standing.
--
"Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible." |
Snarls McGee
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:40:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Sonlatur
What about miners? What about ratters? What about lowsec traders? Why do mission runners always have to be extra safe?
When the asteroids shart shooting back at you then you can compare miners to mission runners..
Seriously though, mission runners ARE putting themselves at risk. Look at the map using the "Ships Destroyed" filter and you'll see TONS of high-sec systems colored.
I think there should be some very important distinctions made here:
PvP != Griefing
Griefing != PvP
If 100% risk free mission running is bad for EVE then why should 100% risk free griefing/ganking be any different?
Seriously, what kind of risk does someone in a PvP setup take to warp in and kill/harass someone in a PvE rig in the middle of their mission when they already have 8+ NPCs on them already to kill?
Once all the 'easy' prey has been run off what will the 'gankbear' do then since they avoid any kind of fair fights?
|
Harisdrop
Gallente
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:47:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Rudolf Miller
It is wonderful to see topics slanted to unrelated agendas.
Mission runner aren't complaining about their safety. They are compaining about outside interference in combat missions. I could interfer with a mission in a frigate. So the type of ship is really irrelevant.
Why were deadspace missions created? As I seem to remember, it was to eliminate outside interference in combat missions. That is how it should be regardless of you progrssion or alignment in the game.
Nope they where made soo you could not be 100% safe by staying out of target range.
The warp to mission bookmark at 200km snipe the rats.
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
|
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:57:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Originally by: Rudolf Miller
It is wonderful to see topics slanted to unrelated agendas.
Mission runner aren't complaining about their safety. They are compaining about outside interference in combat missions. I could interfer with a mission in a frigate. So the type of ship is really irrelevant.
Why were deadspace missions created? As I seem to remember, it was to eliminate outside interference in combat missions. That is how it should be regardless of you progrssion or alignment in the game.
Nope they where made soo you could not be 100% safe by staying out of target range.
The warp to mission bookmark at 200km snipe the rats.
If you actually has any idea about missions you would know that you can easily go to 200km off main entrance even with the rats there.. most rats keep at a range they choose, and respawns take longer to target and approach you...
hence.. anything you say will be simply ignored my friend.. you can have your NPC corps out of Eve, as long as you go and post the idea on your own topic
|
Sonlatur
Minmatar
Matari Raiders
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 18:57:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Snarls McGee
Originally by: Sonlatur
What about miners? What about ratters? What about lowsec traders? Why do mission runners always have to be extra safe?
When the asteroids shart shooting back at you then you can compare miners to mission runners..
Seriously though, mission runners ARE putting themselves at risk. Look at the map using the "Ships Destroyed" filter and you'll see TONS of high-sec systems colored.
I think there should be some very important distinctions made here:
PvP != Griefing
Griefing != PvP
If 100% risk free mission running is bad for EVE then why should 100% risk free griefing/ganking be any different?
Seriously, what kind of risk does someone in a PvP setup take to warp in and kill/harass someone in a PvE rig in the middle of their mission when they already have 8+ NPCs on them already to kill?
It is the same for miners, ratters, lowsec traders and so on. Practically everyone who comes to lowsec not to fight. Mission runners are not special in that.
Yes, you got special treatment in the past as many missions were quasi-instanced and even those that could be found out took a long time to. Now you're on the same level as all the other lowsec residents.
Btw, pirates do have the risk to encounter other PVPers while snooping around lowsec. Roaming pirates risk running into a gate camp. Furthermore, the target might get help from his buddies.
Ratters, miner, mission runners risk getting jumped.
Originally by: Snarls McGee
Once all the 'easy' prey has been run off what will the 'gankbear' do then since they avoid any kind of fair fights?
It is true that lowsec is as dangerous as never before at the moment. But mission runners dont deserve special treatment.
Mission runners in lowsec for me were just an annoyance, since they would confuse my target selection, so i cant really share the whines "oh no, lowsec will become even more empty now" - mission runners didnt contribute anything anyways.
Lowsec needs a boon, that's for sure. Personally, i would make it so that some ressource can ONLY be found in lowsec. In this way, supply and demand will regulate the price of this ressource and thus risk=reward.
As it stands now, lowsec for the most part just isnt worth it.
It was well worth to run missions there before the patch (did it myself), but now the missions have been put on one level with all other activities there. That is just fair.
Missioneers dont deserve special treatment over miners and ratters.
The whole implementation of mission and faction standing was a mistake to begin with imho.
--
"Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible." |
Ritualiztic Suizide
Black Watch Legionnaires
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:12:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Ritualiztic Suizide on 01/12/2006 19:17:27
Why not have every time some one activates a gate that leads into the dead space you are in anyone in that dead space receives a warning that the gate has been activated and someone is coming through.
It doesn't have to say who is coming through or what type of ship. That way if you have gang members coming through you would know that they are there. And if all your gang members are in dead space then anyone else coming through would be considered an enemy.
This doesn't stop the fact of griefers agroing they whole area but it does allow some warning to the people in dead space. So you cant just sit there afk. Also lock all cans in dead space to the mission runner / gang.
Or have that every time your ship gets scanned. you receive a warning. You would expect a high tech ship would have some sort of sensors that could register that you were found on radar/lazer/whatever method the scanners use. It should just give you a warning that would were found by a scanner. You could then choose how to proceed. Do you ignore the fact that you were recently scanned or do you turn around and prepare to fight?
RS
I Rather Die on My Feet Than Live On my Knees |
Popsikle
Caffeine Commodities Company
Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:18:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
To the Devs,
Hey guys, Kali is great. It has some great features and I love it. However, if you see the first 3-4 topics on this forums regarding Mission running and the ease of scanning causing griefing to players and putting a game-style, that EvE DOES advertise, on the line, should have your attention. Please can anyone post a sticky and or a comment as to why this was implemented, and wasn't this part that affect mission runners though of in advance.
Please comment and offer a viable solution some of which being offered by players as:
1. Let the agent give Keys for missions that also allow gang members in mission complexes
2. Return Scan probes to their original or simply exclude mission complexes of possible scan results
3. Make a person that is not a mission holder and not a part of the mission gang just an observer, i.e. they can warp to the mission but cannot shoot at NPCs/mission runner or loot cans.
Please add more and would really appreciate if a Dev is interested at considering these ideas.
Thanks in advance!
If you cant take the heat, get outta low-sec.
You have have wtz and be safe at all times in low-sec, IM AN ANTI-PIRATE BUT I UNDERSTAND THIS.
__________________________________________
-= We Fly for our people =-
-= I fly for Blood =- |
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:34:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Sonlatur
[Mission runners in lowsec for me were just an annoyance, since they would confuse my target selection, so i cant really share the whines "oh no, lowsec will become even more empty now" - mission runners didnt contribute anything anyways.
Well that about sums it about your opinion .. let the people actually make constructive comments rather than you "Voicing" your dislike of a certain % or EvE population...
|
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:38:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Ritualiztic Suizide
Edited by: Ritualiztic Suizide on 01/12/2006 19:17:27
Why not have every time some one activates a gate that leads into the dead space you are in anyone in that dead space receives a warning that the gate has been activated and someone is coming through.
It doesn't have to say who is coming through or what type of ship. That way if you have gang members coming through you would know that they are there. And if all your gang members are in dead space then anyone else coming through would be considered an enemy.
This doesn't stop the fact of griefers agroing they whole area but it does allow some warning to the people in dead space. So you cant just sit there afk. Also lock all cans in dead space to the mission runner / gang.
Or have that every time your ship gets scanned. you receive a warning. You would expect a high tech ship would have some sort of sensors that could register that you were found on radar/lazer/whatever method the scanners use. It should just give you a warning that would were found by a scanner. You could then choose how to proceed. Do you ignore the fact that you were recently scanned or do you turn around and prepare to fight?
RS
This is what I believe should be a minumum requirement to this new change in game, i.e. pop a warning at user's screen that his complex gate is activated or in the case if locked, being tampered with. I still like the idea with hacking as a means to unlock the gate. This will gain my respect as the person actually took time to develop this skill, not to launch a probe, get his result in 3 min, dock, refit with proper ship, etc and then go get a free meal... Risk vs Reward, no?
|
Black Scorpio
|
Posted - 2006.12.01 19:41:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Black Scorpio
To the Devs,
Hey guys, Kali is great. It has some great features and I love it. However, if you see the first 3-4 topics on this forums regarding Mission running and the ease of scanning causing griefing to players and putting a game-style, that EvE DOES advertise, on the line, should have your attention. Please can anyone post a sticky and or a comment as to why this was implemented, and wasn't this part that affect mission runners though of in advance.
Please comment and offer a viable solution some of which being offered by players as:
1. Let the agent give Keys for missions that also allow gang members in mission complexes
2. Return Scan probes to their original or simply exclude mission complexes of possible scan results
3. Make a person that is not a mission holder and not a part of the mission gang just an observer, i.e. they can warp to the mission but cannot shoot at NPCs/mission runner or loot cans.
Please add more and would really appreciate if a Dev is interested at considering these ideas.
Thanks in advance!
If you cant take the heat, get outta low-sec.
You have have wtz and be safe at all times in low-sec, IM AN ANTI-PIRATE BUT I UNDERSTAND THIS.
HAHAHHA, you are so disconnected with EvE and especially this post that it's no longer commenting on this childish response. Other readers know why.. in fact anyone familiar with forum topics can easily shut you up. Just don't troll a post, provide constructive responses! If it's that hard, go out of the forums (this topic at the least) isn't that what you just asked me to do in Eve?
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |