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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:16:00 -
[1]
To the Devs,
Hey guys, Kali is great. It has some great features and I love it. However, if you see the first 3-4 topics on this forums regarding Mission running and the ease of scanning causing griefing to players and putting a game-style, that EvE DOES advertise, on the line, should have your attention. Please can anyone post a sticky and or a comment as to why this was implemented, and wasn't this part that affect mission runners though of in advance.
Please comment and offer a viable solution some of which being offered by players as:
1. Let the agent give Keys for missions that also allow gang members in mission complexes
2. Return Scan probes to their original or simply exclude mission complexes of possible scan results
3. Make a person that is not a mission holder and not a part of the mission gang just an observer, i.e. they can warp to the mission but cannot shoot at NPCs/mission runner or loot cans.
Please add more and would really appreciate if a Dev is interested at considering these ideas.
Thanks in advance!
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Sonlatur
Minmatar
Matari Raiders
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:18:00 -
[2]
Have smaller number of npcs in each stage that all aggro the mission runner by default. Solved.
--
"Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible." |
Skunrah
Eve's Brothers of Destiny
The Shadow Ascension
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:20:00 -
[3]
Yes, please keep scanners out of missions, this is really the last place I wanted to see griefers. This is going to totally ruin the mission system.
Skunrah
Director - Eve Brothers of Destiny |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:24:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Sonlatur
Have smaller number of npcs in each stage that all aggro the mission runner by default. Solved.
Dude, this defeats the purpose of having different level missions.. if you have decent skills with less NPCs you can freaking do it in a Ferox..
But frankly why should the mission mechanic need to be changed because of griefer tactics. In my opinion if it is risk vs reward the pirate cannot pass with a EW gear, how about that.. ? Noone ever scrambles at missions.
This can be kept for say regular NPC hideouts.
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Dane Hur
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:30:00 -
[5]
You should be able to find missions, no one is safe in Eve, thats just the way the game is setup. But yes currently it is to easy to use scanprobes.
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Michayel Lyon
The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
1. Let the agent give Keys for missions that also allow gang members in mission complexes
2. Return Scan probes to their original or simply exclude mission complexes of possible scan results
3. Make a person that is not a mission holder and not a part of the mission gang just an observer, i.e. they can warp to the mission but cannot shoot at NPCs/mission runner or loot cans.
1) You're invincible in mission deadspace
2) Excluding ships in mission deadspace from probe result -> you're invincible in mission deadspace
3) You're invincible in mission deadspace
While I too fear that probing mission runners will be TOO easy with the new probing system, you shouldn't be invincible anywhere.
---
Lasiverin Dark > Is everyone here allied?
Red Knight > we are allied by our zombie like ability to ***** missions
The Game - You just lost it |
Sonlatur
Minmatar
Matari Raiders
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:31:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Sonlatur on 01/12/2006 16:33:05
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Sonlatur
Have smaller number of npcs in each stage that all aggro the mission runner by default. Solved.
Dude, this defeats the purpose of having different level missions.. if you have decent skills with less NPCs you can freaking do it in a Ferox..
I think you misunderstood me. My suggestion is to make it so that each group that aggroes separately will have an own stage. Thus, an intruder cannot pull the whole stage towards you. The mission difficulty would stay the same.
The only thing that happens would be that players in better ships dont have the choice to aggro several groups in order to do it quicker.
Originally by: Black Scorpio
But frankly why should the mission mechanic need to be changed because of griefer tactics.
Because the concept of missions sucks from the beginning. It is completely different than ratting or mining. A long time it had none of the problems that these two had. Now it has the same problems - someone stealing your loot or kills (have to live with it) - and one more, that is aggro-pulling, which indeed is a problem.
Having only one aggro-group in at once solves that and gives better FPS.
Mission runners are a bit spoiled by being very hard to find and having an infinite replenishing farming possibility just for themselves. No other profession has that.
Missions are very different than all other dynamics in EVE, and this has until now given them a lot of advantages. Now it gives them a disadvantage, the aggro pulling.
--
"Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible." |
Harisdrop
Gallente
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:32:00 -
[8]
Remove access to NPC corporation players to Capital ships, BS, tech II ships, and mining barges.
All our problems will be fixed.
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:32:00 -
[9]
How about reducing the signal strength of player's in a mission grid proportional to the number of NPCs remaining? They're surrounded by ships and objects, they should in fact be **** hard to find.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dane Hur
You should be able to find missions, no one is safe in Eve, thats just the way the game is setup. But yes currently it is to easy to use scanprobes.
There is a difference between "there is noone safe in Eve" and you are dead 100% in Eve.
To counter your argument, In this case a PvP setup person is completely safe when warping in a mission while it's owner is pounded by NPCs.
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Kylania
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dane Hur
You should be able to find missions, no one is safe in Eve, thats just the way the game is setup. But yes currently it is to easy to use scanprobes.
The difference is even a blind child can find people with the new scanner system and people are using this new found "skill" to steal mission loot from people. As other posts have said, this happening in High sec will drive people from the game if CCP doesn't put an end to it.
--
Lil Miner
Newbie Skills Roadmap | CCG Card Lookup |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Michayel Lyon
Originally by: Black Scorpio
1. Let the agent give Keys for missions that also allow gang members in mission complexes
2. Return Scan probes to their original or simply exclude mission complexes of possible scan results
3. Make a person that is not a mission holder and not a part of the mission gang just an observer, i.e. they can warp to the mission but cannot shoot at NPCs/mission runner or loot cans.
1) You're invincible in mission deadspace
2) Excluding ships in mission deadspace from probe result -> you're invincible in mission deadspace
3) You're invincible in mission deadspace
While I too fear that probing mission runners will be TOO easy with the new probing system, you shouldn't be invincible anywhere.
Mission running IS supposed to be safe from PvP, as it is PvE to the fullest, i.e.not like belt ratting. If you want I will name the reasons why and how it is different if you don't know that.
The problem is that if you are using the PvE feature of EvE, PvP is something that you are not set for. As you see by examples of peoples on the forums, there is mostly "nothing" you can do to counter a PvP setup person, be it prevent him from getting your loot, shooting at your NPCs or in low sec killing you.
Of course you CAN fit your ship for PvP and then die to the NPCs cause you have no resistances, but then it won't be really PvE now would it?
While the Devs are at it, just take away the mission agents and the corporations in game, they would then serve NO purpose whatsoever.. none...
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:40:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Remove access to NPC corporation players to Capital ships, BS, tech II ships, and mining barges.
All our problems will be fixed.
Beautiful :) although i don't think it would be done...
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Harisdrop
Gallente
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:41:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Mission running IS supposed to be safe from PvP, as it is PvE to the fullest, i.e.not like belt ratting. If you want I will name the reasons why and how it is different if you don't know that.
What book did you read that from?
I will be looking for detailed information on that. Why do you think it should exclude PVP?
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
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Wrayeth
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:41:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 01/12/2006 16:40:54
You shouldn't be able to hide from a wardec in a mission. I'm quite happy that you can be probed while doing missions now, even if it does result in the possibility of getting probed while mission whoring, myself.
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Might
As well
Train
Another
Race |
Feng Schui
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:46:00 -
[16]
If I'm in a mission deadspace area, I'm not able to warp back to the entrance gate, due to "interferance".
Make that same interferance cause the probes not to be able to scan the area (lets say, .25au around the deadspace area.
It will tell people that there is a mission in the area, but not exactly where. Then the pirates will need to launch higher resolution probes to try to detect where exactly the area is at.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Quote:
Mission running IS supposed to be safe from PvP, as it is PvE to the fullest, i.e.not like belt ratting. If you want I will name the reasons why and how it is different if you don't know that.
What book did you read that from?
I will be looking for detailed information on that. Why do you think it should exclude PVP?
Because mission running is VERY different from ratting in a belt.
1. You have at most 3-4 rats shooting at you
2. Your overview and screen are not clugged by 1000 items
3. You don't need same level of massive tank to shoot at NPCs in belts compared to NPC in missions (albeit for 0.0 that is mostly the case, however we're talking high sec/low sec)
4. You do not lose mission bonus or standing if you do not complete the belt as in missions
5. You build up standing towards a corp to use another in game mechanic - jump clones.
6. It IS called PvE not PvEvP
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 16:50:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Feng Schui
If I'm in a mission deadspace area, I'm not able to warp back to the entrance gate, due to "interferance".
Make that same interferance cause the probes not to be able to scan the area (lets say, .25au around the deadspace area.
It will tell people that there is a mission in the area, but not exactly where. Then the pirates will need to launch higher resolution probes to try to detect where exactly the area is at.
Dude, with the new probing system, you need about 2-3 probes tops to locate a mission for a total of MAX 10min, complared to the 2-4 hrs it takes to go through some of the missions, it's nothing.
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Harisdrop
Gallente
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:05:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Harisdrop
Quote:
Mission running IS supposed to be safe from PvP, as it is PvE to the fullest, i.e.not like belt ratting. If you want I will name the reasons why and how it is different if you don't know that.
What book did you read that from?
I will be looking for detailed information on that. Why do you think it should exclude PVP?
Because mission running is VERY different from ratting in a belt.
1. You have at most 3-4 rats shooting at you
2. Your overview and screen are not clugged by 1000 items
3. You don't need same level of massive tank to shoot at NPCs in belts compared to NPC in missions (albeit for 0.0 that is mostly the case, however we're talking high sec/low sec)
4. You do not lose mission bonus or standing if you do not complete the belt as in missions
5. You build up standing towards a corp to use another in game mechanic - jump clones.
6. It IS called PvE not PvEvP
Just because there is a feeling that your are doing PVE does that mean you are. Do you not understand that doing mission effect all players. As you gain isk LP and loot, this alone effects all players in EVE. Standings today is a personal effect but factions will change that. What effects everyone in EVE is considered PVP. Your little mission matters to me. You might put something on the market that allows me to kill someone else. If he can get it before it can get to me he is better off and changed history.
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
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Zhaine
B e l l u m
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Mission running IS supposed to be safe from PvP
No. You're wrong. Nothing and no one in Eve is safe from PvP. It's the very point of the game and saying what you said shows that you completely miss the point of Eve.
But, on the other hand, missioning has been nerfed far to far with this patch, I agree.
- - - - - - - - - -
"PERGITE DEGUSTATE FORMOSUM BELLUM"
Forward to taste the beautiful war. . . |
Unfamed II
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:10:00 -
[21]
Boo. Hoo. Best way to avoid PVP, cancel subscription. Otherwise, take it like a man.
Seriously, it's not that great being an amarr, is it?
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Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:18:00 -
[22]
I think I have it...If you are not given the mission through agents and are not in the SAME corp as the mission runner, then the entire complex auto argos on the intruder.
Otherwise, mission runner and corp mate doing mission, mister wannabe pirate griefer scans and warps in, all the npc argo after him.
But make it ONLY fellow corpmate and not Gang members!
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Harisdrop
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Harisdrop
Quote:
Mission running IS supposed to be safe from PvP, as it is PvE to the fullest, i.e.not like belt ratting. If you want I will name the reasons why and how it is different if you don't know that.
What book did you read that from?
I will be looking for detailed information on that. Why do you think it should exclude PVP?
Because mission running is VERY different from ratting in a belt.
1. You have at most 3-4 rats shooting at you
2. Your overview and screen are not clugged by 1000 items
3. You don't need same level of massive tank to shoot at NPCs in belts compared to NPC in missions (albeit for 0.0 that is mostly the case, however we're talking high sec/low sec)
4. You do not lose mission bonus or standing if you do not complete the belt as in missions
5. You build up standing towards a corp to use another in game mechanic - jump clones.
6. It IS called PvE not PvEvP
Just because there is a feeling that your are doing PVE does that mean you are. Do you not understand that doing mission effect all players. As you gain isk LP and loot, this alone effects all players in EVE. Standings today is a personal effect but factions will change that. What effects everyone in EVE is considered PVP. Your little mission matters to me. You might put something on the market that allows me to kill someone else. If he can get it before it can get to me he is better off and changed history.
So here then, there is your form of PvP in PvE (missions) you don't need more of it!
In your example, I do not see how griefing helps either (PvE or PvP)
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Zhaine
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Mission running IS supposed to be safe from PvP
No. You're wrong. Nothing and no one in Eve is safe from PvP. It's the very point of the game and saying what you said shows that you completely miss the point of Eve.
But, on the other hand, missioning has been nerfed far to far with this patch, I agree.
Your agreement with the second statement is in fact disagreeing with your first..
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Unfamed II
Boo. Hoo. Best way to avoid PVP, cancel subscription. Otherwise, take it like a man.
Boo hoo, apparently you do neigher missions nor intend to. As for canceling, why not you go ahead and do so? Your comment is as devoid of any meaning as they can get...
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:35:00 -
[26]
Heres a thought- make mission NPCs the "property" of the mission runner (and his gang). If you blow up someone elses mission spawn, you get flagged for kkill rights exactly as if you'd looted his can.
Problems solved- pirates can still find you in missions, missions arn't a safe haven (whih they should never be), but atleast you can retaliate (pvp ftw!).
-----------------------------------------------
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:36:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Roshan longshot
I think I have it...If you are not given the mission through agents and are not in the SAME corp as the mission runner, then the entire complex auto argos on the intruder.
Otherwise, mission runner and corp mate doing mission, mister wannabe pirate griefer scans and warps in, all the npc argo after him.
But make it ONLY fellow corpmate and not Gang members!
Roshan this is a GREAT idea, lets see then your beloved UUU I'm a Pirate and YARRR I found another N00b tactics while tanking 30Bss and scrambled and webbed with your PvP setup.. lol..
Oh and another one.. give the Mission owner automatic kill rights for 15 min on the intruder without Concord if in high sec, it is by default in low sec. !
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Dreamdancer
Minmatar
Ceryshen Strategic Analysis
Vanu Space Command
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:36:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Zhaine
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Mission running IS supposed to be safe from PvP
No. You're wrong. Nothing and no one in Eve is safe from PvP. It's the very point of the game and saying what you said shows that you completely miss the point of Eve.
But, on the other hand, missioning has been nerfed far to far with this patch, I agree.
I agree. While my lazy carebear side would like to be 100% safe in a mission it's not EVE to be 100% safe anywhere.  And I do not do pvp as I don't enjoy it, but to be 100% safe anywhere is wrong.
That being said that means the keying of mission gates so only the mission runner and those ganged with him can only get in would be wrong too.
Unless...
Hacking becomes a more accessable skill and can be used to unlock mission gates. But I'd want some kind of warning that the gate is being tampered with. Maybe lower the chance of getting the warning based on the person's skill in hacking?
There has to be a counter to any attack. That is also EVE and currently a griefer can enter my mission with a bottom end ship agro the whole room and either warp out or die. Either way loses nothing. But the mission runner loses a lot.
Or the theif warps in in a decent ship. Kills the mission ship and grabs the loot. Warps off.
In high sec there's no counter to either method. The mission loot can flagging idea would do nothing to counter the first problem and do little in the second as the mission runner is all ready being pounded on by a ton of rats and attacking the pirate would only get him killed. Plus the pirate is only gonna warp off after grabbing the loot and can dock if he wants. Since he did not fire on the mission runner.
So what is the answer? That's a hard one, but to be 100% safe I think would be wrong.
Maybe something making scanning the mission as difficult as it was before. Thus allowing a determined person the ability to do it, but the casual person won't. So maybe make finding deadspace areas difficult and anything within is invisible?
We are recruiting! |
Harisdrop
Gallente
ClanKillers
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:38:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 17:39:48
Edited by: Harisdrop on 01/12/2006 17:39:10
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Quote:
Just because there is a feeling that your are doing PVE does that mean you are. Do you not understand that doing mission effect all players. As you gain isk LP and loot, this alone effects all players in EVE. Standings today is a personal effect but factions will change that. What effects everyone in EVE is considered PVP. Your little mission matters to me. You might put something on the market that allows me to kill someone else. If he can get it before it can get to me he is better off and changed history.
So here then, there is your form of PvP in PvE (missions) you don't need more of it!
In your example, I do not see how griefing helps either (PvE or PvP)
The only griefing that could happen is if there is not recourse to the players actions. If its an NPC corporation player then that would be griefing.Soo if NPC corporation player cant fly Capital ships, BS, Tech II or mining barges I think we would remove all griefing.
Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead
. Just because Kali is already in testing. If CCP were actually concerned about what ppl think they would of opened it up for discussion.
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Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2006.12.01 17:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dreamdancer
Originally by: Zhaine
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Mission running IS supposed to be safe from PvP
No. You're wrong. Nothing and no one in Eve is safe from PvP. It's the very point of the game and saying what you said shows that you completely miss the point of Eve.
But, on the other hand, missioning has been nerfed far to far with this patch, I agree.
I agree. While my lazy carebear side would like to be 100% safe in a mission it's not EVE to be 100% safe anywhere. And I do not do pvp as I don't enjoy it, but to be 100% safe anywhere is wrong.
That being said that means the keying of mission gates so only the mission runner and those ganged with him can only get in would be wrong too.
Unless...
Hacking becomes a more accessable skill and can be used to unlock mission gates. But I'd want some kind of warning that the gate is being tampered with. Maybe lower the chance of getting the warning based on the person's skill in hacking?
There has to be a counter to any attack. That is also EVE and currently a griefer can enter my mission with a bottom end ship agro the whole room and either warp out or die. Either way loses nothing. But the mission runner loses a lot.
Or the theif warps in in a decent ship. Kills the mission ship and grabs the loot. Warps off.
In high sec there's no counter to either method. The mission loot can flagging idea would do nothing to counter the first problem and do little in the second as the mission runner is all ready being pounded on by a ton of rats and attacking the pirate would only get him killed. Plus the pirate is only gonna warp off after grabbing the loot and can dock if he wants. Since he did not fire on the mission runner.
So what is the answer? That's a hard one, but to be 100% safe I think would be wrong.
Maybe something making scanning the mission as difficult as it was before. Thus allowing a determined person the ability to do it, but the casual person won't. So maybe make finding deadspace areas difficult and anything within is invisible?
This is a good idea m8, do the following then:
Person (i hate terms pirate/carebears, all people do both) scans a complex, he gets at a gate, that is locked to him (i.e. only unlocked to mission owner and gang), he needs to use advanced hacking (Chance base again) at *****ing the gate key unlocked. As he does that a message is displayed to the mission owner that the mission gate is being compromised. He than has the chance to go back and refit for PvP or act of his free will.
Here's for PvP! I want this form too. Give everyone the chance to stand a chance! + I wonder how many wannabies will really go for hacking, but they're more than welcomed to..
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