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Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Jovian Labs
Jovian Enterprises
18821
   |
Posted - 2015.07.18 23:02:56 -
[1] - Quote
Today, in Safizon, Empress Jamyl Sarum made her first public appearance in a considerable time to bless and commence the construction of a new Imperial hull, based on the Abaddon.
Empress Sarum departed from the Oris station, boarding an Avatar-class titan, which was escorted by Aeon-class supercarriers and Revelation-class Dreadnoughts, baring the Sarum family colors.
Upon arrival in Safizon, the Empress began her commencement:
Her further broadcasts were directed at specific pilots inquiring about a variety of topics:
After finishing, the Empress microjumped off of the Station facility's location, then proceeded to return to Amarr.
It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong. In conclusion, it was an honor to be in the presence of the Empress; I await the completion of the TES Auctoritas and pray that her Majesty recovers from whatever afflicts her soon.
-Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
((OOC PS - I'm getting the text logs - they'll be up in a bit in place of the images))
"A City made of Dreams...is built in heaven" - GÖâ-
GPƒ U-Ç+¬ß¦ç-ƒ's Sߦ¢ß¦Å-Ç-Å
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1957
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 23:08:25 -
[2] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong.
Mr. Anteovnuecci, for Her Imperial Majesty to look in such a manner is precisely as the Emperor of Amarr should look. Nothing is wrong. She appeared better than ever. Any aging demonstrates that she has devoted herself to her work, and is a sign of her growing in wisdom and experience.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
|
Ayallah
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
354
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 23:22:07 -
[3] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong. In conclusion, it was an honor to be in the presence of the Empress; I await the completion of the TES Auctoritas and pray that her Majesty recovers from whatever afflicts her soon.
She did not seem so to me at all.
-áFear The Tribes
|
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Jovian Labs
Jovian Enterprises
18822
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 23:25:25 -
[4] - Quote
To Samira and Allyal: I comment only on her appearance as seen in her profile full-body holo. She appears pale and older. However, I did indeed fail to consider what Samira brought up. My apologies on that front.
"A City made of Dreams...is built in heaven" - GÖâ-
GPƒ U-Ç+¬ß¦ç-ƒ's Sߦ¢ß¦Å-Ç-Å
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Matar Ronin
605
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 00:52:44 -
[5] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong.
The only thing wrong here is you, jamyl is an ageless capsuleer.
Are you so in awe of this matron of mass atrocity and the glitz of faux royalty you do not recognize the facts before your own eyes?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1960
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 01:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Capsuleers age just like anyone else. That age is only reversed if they clone.
Her Imperial Majesty has not cloned.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
|
Goldfinch
House Rkard
163
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 01:11:47 -
[7] - Quote
We wanted to test out some new camera drones we were given as a gift. We snapped some photos from the momentuous event. We will link our pictures to add to the esteemed Mr. Anteovnuecci's visual story.
Jamyl's Avatar undocks from Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy
Jamyl's Avatar warps to Bhizheba gate in Amarr
Jamyl Sarum I christens Imperial Flagship Auctoritas
Jamyl Sarum I condemns Max Singularity VI
Jamyl Sarum I declares no right of Inquisition for Max Singularity VI
Jamyl Sarum I refers Max Singularity VI to Ministry of Internal Order
Many more images in the album.
veiled and bound
my origin story (on R109)
|
MeagerMiner
8
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 03:36:14 -
[8] - Quote
Heres some screen shots from the vist
http://s959.photobucket.com/user/ImaRawdawg/library/EVE%20Online |
Quattras Peione
SUPREME MATHEMATICS
A Band Apart.
101
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 03:39:39 -
[9] - Quote
During this event I piloted a Manticore-class stealth bomber named Kathyayini's Revenge onto the field and fired a single volley in defiance of the Empress.
I knowingly sacrificed my ship and clone in this act, with the knowledge that I followed my conscience in a public act of rebellion that will mark me as an enemy to many whom I hold in high regard. The Empress' life was, as we are all aware, never in any danger. This was a purely symbolic act.
However, this act of openly stating my stance and acting upon it despite full knowledge of the consequences stands in stark contrast to Max Singularity, self-proclaimed Pope of the Holy Amarrian Church, who claims to stand in objection to Jamyl Sarum's reign and openly states hostile intentions with the public backing of a massive paramilitary force, yet flew in a fleet in the Empress' defense.
Max, you are a coward. You should disappear in shame. Long live the People of all empires. Sic semper tyrannis.
Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione
No, I'm not that kind of doctor.
|
Lord Kailethre
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
172
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 04:12:21 -
[10] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong.
The only thing wrong here is you, jamyl is an ageless capsuleer. Are you so in awe of this matron of mass atrocity and the glitz of faux royalty you do not recognize the facts before your own eyes?
Her Imperial Majesty is not a clone, and you have no evidence to support your claim.
Although I can see why you might think so, she's clearly spent more time in space than you have. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1968
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 04:15:29 -
[11] - Quote
Quattras Peione wrote:I knowingly sacrificed my ship and clone in this act, with the knowledge that I followed my conscience in a public act of rebellion that will mark me as an enemy to many whom I hold in high regard.
It certainly does mark you as an enemy of Amarr and God.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
|
Matar Ronin
609
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 04:39:55 -
[12] - Quote
Lord Kailethre wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong.
The only thing wrong here is you, jamyl is an ageless capsuleer. Are you so in awe of this matron of mass atrocity and the glitz of faux royalty you do not recognize the facts before your own eyes? Her Imperial Majesty is not a clone, and you have no evidence to support your claim. Although I can see why you might think so, she's clearly spent more time in space than you have. I wondered which idiot would bite. Ding! We have a winner!
NO EVIDENCE? How about her death in the contest for your throne of skulls?
You tell me how she did NOT prevail in a fight to the DEATH, according to your customs, yet reappears later alive and well.
Either your royal method of selecting candidates is phony or jamyl is, go ahead pick one or the other here in public.
The evidence is apparent every time she speaks after death like the rest of us capsuleers.
Here is another news flash for you professor, no long eared furry fertility animal is actually going to bring you a basket of sweets and boiled colored eggs. Perhaps if you had something to do in space other than repeating the foolish dribble that passes for slaver cult propaganda you might realize quite a few other realities as well. You people need to reclaim your common sense!
Pilot kailethre you are just another lord of the lies!
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
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Rytha Main
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
62
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 07:01:19 -
[13] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Lord Kailethre wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong.
The only thing wrong here is you, jamyl is an ageless capsuleer. Are you so in awe of this matron of mass atrocity and the glitz of faux royalty you do not recognize the facts before your own eyes? Her Imperial Majesty is not a clone, and you have no evidence to support your claim. Although I can see why you might think so, she's clearly spent more time in space than you have. I wondered which idiot would bite. Ding! We have a winner! NO EVIDENCE? How about her death in the contest for your throne of skulls? You tell me how she did NOT prevail in a fight to the DEATH, according to your customs, yet reappears later alive and well. Either your royal method of selecting candidates is phony or jamyl is, go ahead pick one or the other here in public. The evidence is apparent every time she speaks after death like the rest of us capsuleers. Here is another news flash for you professor, no long eared furry fertility animal is actually going to bring you a basket of sweets and boiled colored eggs. Perhaps if you had something to do in space other than repeating the foolish dribble that passes for slaver cult propaganda you might realize quite a few other realities as well. You people need to reclaim your common sense! Pilot kailethre you are just another lord of the lies!
Just because you cannot grasp faith in the miraculous does not mean it is any less true.
And let's say for the sake of argument she is a clone. I'm not certain it would matter entirely for 3 reasons:
1) She was vetted and approved by the Theology and Privy Councils
2) She acted as God's own warrior at our greatest time in need at the Elder Fleet Invasion
3) God has yet demonstrated his affirmation at the recent Drifter Invasion, when some "event" (perhaps a new weapon, or divine intervention) weakened the Drifter Battleship Armada, allowing Amarrian forces gathering in support of the Empress, to be decimated.
I was there, and saw the act of divine intervention myself. |
Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
454
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 07:10:55 -
[14] - Quote
I very much recommend you don't respond to Mr Ronin who seems to talk a very good talk, but doesn't seem to do much in the way of anything at all.
Moving on, I consider myself gloriously blessed to have witnessed the Empress, and doubly so for her gracious comments towards the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris. Long may she reign in His Light.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
Akrasjel Lanate
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
1793
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 07:11:24 -
[15] - Quote
I understand that the creation of this "most technologically advanced in the Empire" does not uses technologies different than the other empires use otherwise Directive Alpha Gamma 12 would go into effect.
Akrasjel Lanate
Member of Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Citizen of Solitude
|
Matar Ronin
612
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 07:41:28 -
[16] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:I very much recommend you don't respond to Mr Ronin who seems to talk a very good talk, but doesn't seem to do much in the way of anything at all.
Moving on, I consider myself gloriously blessed to have witnessed the Empress, and doubly so for her gracious comments towards the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris. Long may she reign in His Light. You ignore facts as an article of "faith", that is not devotion, that is dumb!
Run from the truth as long as you can, it will catch you eventually. Stare in awe at your blood soaked figurehead whose very position on the throne proves how nothing is sacred to your type of thinking, the ends justify any means.
Anything you say or stand for could change by theological decree tomorrow, your cult is running from the truth as fast as you are. You are not allowed to think on your own or use human intelligence and reasoning. You all act like the evil emotional filled versions of Sansha cyborgs.
When you do not stand for something you fall for anything. Reclaim your common sense!
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
|
Quattras Peione
SUPREME MATHEMATICS
A Band Apart.
102
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 08:00:02 -
[17] - Quote
I am no enemy of the Amarrian people, Ms. Kernher. Nor am I an enemy of God. I am only an enemy of the Imperial Throne insomuch as it, as any other such office, seeks to impose its will at the expense and exclusion of others. The Church has become secularized, a propaganda machine for those who already hold power and a blatant conflict of interest. I stand in direct opposition just as I stood against the Provist regime in my own native State and the Blaque administration in the Federation.
The Divine Will pre-dates humanity, I believe you will agree. And it has been scientifically proven that all of humanity share a progenitor. Therefore if any are the Children of God, then all are the Children of God. And I refuse to believe that the true Divine Intelligence behind the Universe - whether you call it God, Maker, Cold Wind, Bob, or any other name - would stand for Its name being invoked in defense of the xenophobic, exclusionary, power-hungry policies of the Imperial Throne.
Defiance against tyrants is obedience to God.
Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione
No, I'm not that kind of doctor.
|
Haruchai Khan
Secretariat General of the Republic Fleet
55
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 08:17:51 -
[18] - Quote
Statement from the Republic Fleet Diplomatic Mission:
"It is deeply disappointing that the Empress chose to publicly endorse the illegal activities of the 24th Crusade in the borderlands. We further express unease at the casual language used to characterise the Minmatar Republic and our leader, the Sanmatar, as 'warmongers'.
These pronouncements were made from the bridge of a significant warship. In addition, reference was made to further escalation of the arms race by claiming that new military weapons are being developed.
The idea of "Reclaiming" through military conquest has had a long and unfortunate hold over the Amarr Empire. This doctrine means that other races view any military developments from the Empire with no little alarm. With recent setbacks befalling their military, it appeared that more pragmatic minds were taking hold in the Empire and that the Empress was among these reformers. Whilst it can be recognised that much of her speech was for domestic consumption, nonetheless her remarks carry significant import for the wider peoples of New Eden and must be seen as highly provocative, especially after the recent progress in the Pakhshi Peace Conference.
The Republic expresses its substantial concern about the tone and message of the Empress in her speech, and calls on the Federation and Caldari State to do likewise. In the light of the Drifter incursions, for the Empire to escalate tensions between the Peoples of New Eden is unfortunate and divisive.
The Republic further calls for an emergency diplomatic conference so that the Empire can be given an opportunity to explain the intent of these remarks."
Further clarification and questions to be directed to Captain Khan, Republic Fleet Secretariat General. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1201
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 09:45:50 -
[19] - Quote
Illegal activities ? |
chaosjj
An My
BLUE Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 11:19:58 -
[20] - Quote
I certainly hope that this "new technology" will make it to the capsuleer market in some form, we will all benefit from a new leap in ship technology to prepair for the looming drifter threat. I also have the feeling the other three navy's are also designing and building new vessels, to maintain the balance of power. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1971
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 12:50:39 -
[21] - Quote
Haruchai Khan wrote:"It is deeply disappointing that the Empress chose to publicly endorse the illegal activities of the 24th Crusade in the borderlands. We further express unease at the casual language used to characterise the Minmatar Republic and our leader, the Sanmatar, as 'warmongers'.
The Republic assaulted CONCORD and Amarr in violation of interstellar treaties, and you're saying we are the ones acting illegally? Lol. If you don't like the war, then your government shouldn't have started it.
You should also do some research on the laws that govern the war's prosecution.
Quattras Peione wrote:I am no enemy of the Amarrian people, Ms. Kernher. Nor am I an enemy of God. I am only an enemy of the Imperial Throne insomuch as it, as any other such office, seeks to impose its will at the expense and exclusion of others.
To be an enemy of the Imperial Throne is to be an enemy of God and Amarr, for Her Imperial Majesty speaks with the Voice of God and Amarr is the Empire of God.
To attack the head of the body is to attack the entire body. Do not speak of the Divine. You've demonstrated you lack all faith and respect for it.
The Lord our God gave the Emperor of Amarr the power to harness the Good and punish the Evil. Not you.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
|
Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
275
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 12:59:32 -
[22] - Quote
It was indeed an honor to see the Empress, in person, piloting an Avatar in formation.
Piloting an Avatar...from a pod.
Being a Capsuleer pretty much necessitates a clone. It's in all the basic literature on the history of the pod and cloning.
But being a clone would mean...
Now let's pause a second. Breathe. Continue.
There is no doubt as to her status. But people say this goes against Scripture, that this would invalidate her ascension.
No. The Council was more than happy to look the other way when it came to Khanid II's departure from the Empire and sanctioned his eventual "return." Scripture evolves as does our understanding of it. Paradigms shift and our understanding of God's Plan shifts with it.
So what is more believable? Can it be that there was some mystical event that brought Jamyl Sarum back from the dead that allows her to fly an Avatar as a Capsuleer without actually being one? Or is it the case that she's a clone, a Capsuleer true like all of us and just that powerful that the Council was willing to let it slide for the good of the Empire?
I think it's pretty apparent what the truth of the situation is. Jamyl Sarum is a clone, a Capsuleer and God has indicated his Blessing on her. I am perfectly comfortable with her status as one of us. This does not change my faith one iota and in fact, I am pleased to see the zero amount of f*cks she gives. I would like to see the Council ratify her status, but at the end of the day, it matters not.
Jamyl Sarum is a clone and a Capsuleer and the one, true Empress of Amarr.
And that's a good thing.
By His Light and His Will!
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1971
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 13:05:54 -
[23] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:Being a Capsuleer pretty much necessitates a clone. It's in all the basic literature on the history of the pod and cloning.
Being a capsuleer does not necessitate a clone. We had capsuleers for over a century, before the integration of cloning tech into the pod ten years ago.
Her Imperial Majesty, along with the other heirs at the time who were also capsuleers and also appeared in pods, did not have active burn scanners.
Her Imperial Majesty is not a clone.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
|
Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
275
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 13:21:16 -
[24] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Sinjin Mokk wrote:Being a Capsuleer pretty much necessitates a clone. It's in all the basic literature on the history of the pod and cloning. Being a capsuleer does not necessitate a clone. We had capsuleers for over a century, before the integration of cloning tech into the pod ten years ago. Her Imperial Majesty, along with the other heirs at the time who were also capsuleers and also appeared in pods, did not have active burn scanners. Her Imperial Majesty is not a clone.
You miss the point of the statement, young one.
What I say is that it does not matter if she is a clone or not. She probably is. But if she is, it does not matter.
We do not need to engage in debate whether she is or not. Our faith does not have to be blind or rooted in mysticism.
(All that being said, the cybernetician in me urges you to look for a scientific article, "The Capsule and Clone" for further reading on why Pod piloting without a clone is dangerous and unwise. I think you'll see why it would be almost impossible for her to fly a Titan without being one of us. But again, it does not matter, she is the Empress!)
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
|
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1973
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 13:36:16 -
[25] - Quote
It matters.
And I have read that article. It's irrelevant. You do not need to be a clone to be a capsuleer. The only reason it has become ubiguitous is because CONCORD forced it by mandating cloning contracts to hold capsuleer licenses. Cloning technology is what has made the capsuleer into the monster that it has become over the last decade.
"Embrace those who would learn, defeat those who would make mockery of God's way. Through the penance of deeds, the sins of forefathers may eventually be washed away."
-- His Royal Highness the Heir Yonis Ardishapur
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
5416
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 13:47:26 -
[26] - Quote
It was an interesting experience to have caught the tail end of.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
|
Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
277
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 13:48:20 -
[27] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:It matters.
And I have read that article. It's irrelevant. You do not need to be a clone to be a capsuleer. The only reason it has become ubiguitous is because CONCORD forced it by mandating cloning contracts to hold capsuleer licenses. Cloning technology is what has made the capsuleer into the monster that it has become over the last decade.
Do not let your own self-loathing speak for you. We are not monsters. SHE is not a monster for being one of us. Our actions are what define us. I will not chide you on your lack of insight into things scientific or theological. You are young and have much to learn and experience. Let us instead remark on the majesty of yesterday's event. It was singular.
You are correct though in that CONCORD is the key to the issue. It is they who have pulled the mask off of her status. So be it. I say again, they are not needed.
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
|
Matar Ronin
615
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 15:21:02 -
[28] - Quote
Sinjin Mokk wrote:Samira Kernher wrote:It matters.
And I have read that article. It's irrelevant. You do not need to be a clone to be a capsuleer. The only reason it has become ubiguitous is because CONCORD forced it by mandating cloning contracts to hold capsuleer licenses. Cloning technology is what has made the capsuleer into the monster that it has become over the last decade. Do not let your own self-loathing speak for you. We are not monsters. Sadly self loathing is all this broken person has to offer, which is why she is such a great representation of the inescapable falsity of the blind idiotic demonic cult she parrots the teachings of. She is an example of the horror that they can and seek to create of all the free, thinking, intelligent people of New Eden. They hope we sit idly by so they can subject more people to their "reclaiming" and then inflict generations of the most brutal physical and psychological torture ever known in human history in every corner of the New Eden Cluster, amarrian slavery.
I ask you all, all that are not members of the demonic slavery cult, who have read her words, is this the future you want for the Caldari and Gallente children of your own families?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
|
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2003
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 15:59:35 -
[29] - Quote
It is good to see the Empress taking a more visible role in space, and I look forward to seeing the new flagship in action. I have no doubt that its armaments will make enemies of the Empire tremble no matter where they are.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1973
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 17:31:39 -
[30] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Capsuleers age just like anyone else. That age is only reversed if they clone.
Her Imperial Majesty has not cloned.
Oh really? How the hell did she manage to "return from the dead" after her apparent ritual suicide during the succession trials, then?
Logically there are only two possibilities; she never killed herself and just hid out for several years or, she was revived in a new clone after killing herself. In either case she's a fraud and a usurper.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
428
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 18:00:20 -
[31] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:If you don't like the war, then your government shouldn't have started it.
The Starkmanir Tribe would likely have a different opinion of who started the war.
|
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1202
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 20:08:42 -
[32] - Quote
Uh...
There is a difference between the Republic (up until prime minister Midular) and the resistance movement, comprising the Elders of the Minmatar Tribes.
The Republic never started this war, and for what is apparent from most transcripts, the actual Republic government that was in place under Midular was as much taken aback by ambassador Keitan Yun and the ensuing attack as anyone else.
Likewise, the Minmatar forces were baffled enough that a handful of them deserted to go support the Elder fleets. If the Republic had really been planning this, it would have been the whole Republic Fleet that would have joined the fight too, and not a few haphazard elements.
The new Republic however, when Midular got deposed, perfectly condoned the event.
The previous Republic instance signed a peace treaty with the Amarr Empire after the Rebellion, and both became part of the Yulai treaty as well as CONCORD signatories. They lived for a few centuries under that very state, while the war was actually fought by dissidents and freedom fighters, as well as the Elders that built that fleet using their connections (how did everyone miss this, though, I wonder ?).
The only war that happened was limited to border skirmishes with the Ammatar Mandate that mostly served as a proxy for both sides.
So there is a clear disconnect between freedom fighters, resistance movements and the Elders, and the Minmatar Republic before the event. The latter was at an uneasy peace while the former never dropped arms.
That is also why incidentally that freedom fighters got branded as terrorists by CONCORD for all those years. This is also why the culprits of the attacks got charged as guilty of crimes against humanity.
Incidentally, the war ceased when the peace was signed after the Minmatar Rebellion, if we speak about legitimate recognized governments.
However, the war never ceased for the Elders or every other resistance movement. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2005
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 21:13:43 -
[33] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:
So there is a clear disconnect between freedom fighters, resistance movements and the Elders, and the Minmatar Republic before the event. The latter was at an uneasy peace while the former never dropped arms.
Even if we accept this, the key word here is before.
There is no disconnect between the self-styled Elders and the Republic in its current form.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
434
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 22:02:01 -
[34] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Even if we accept this, the key word here is before.
There is no disconnect between the self-styled Elders and the Republic in its current form.
And that does not change the origins of the conflict, nor who the original aggressors were. |
Frenjo Borkstar
Borkstar Laboratories
119
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 01:52:01 -
[35] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong. Mr. Anteovnuecci, for Her Imperial Majesty to look in such a manner is precisely as the Emperor of Amarr should look. Nothing is wrong. She appeared better than ever. Any aging demonstrates that she has devoted herself to her work, and is a sign of her growing in wisdom and experience.
As I commented to my associate Archivist Anteovnuecci, in her holo-image, she appears distant, and has a vacant expression.
It's nothing to do with age.
Dr. Frenjo Borkstar,
//Founder of the Drifter Research Assembly//
Lead for Arek'Jaalan's Project Salus, Co-Lead for Project Trireme,
Borkstar Laboratories.
|
Ginia Itonula
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
70
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 05:15:05 -
[36] - Quote
All this bickering over who started the fighting between the Amarr and Minmatar or whether Jamyl Sarum is a clone is pointless.
Maximillian Singularity will take his rightful place soon. And in so doing, all such issues will be resolved in short order. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2006
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 06:18:24 -
[37] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:Even if we accept this, the key word here is before.
There is no disconnect between the self-styled Elders and the Republic in its current form.
And that does not change the origins of the conflict, nor who the original aggressors were.
There was a peace treaty. The old war was over.
But if you really want to go back to ancient history, the Matari were the original aggressors when the sinned against God.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
577
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 06:32:21 -
[38] - Quote
Ironically enough, parading a bunch of shiny ships around the Throne Worlds is a showcase of one more than the other.
As for who started the war - does it really matter? Can you sleep easier at night knowing you're somehow a victim in the grander scheme of things and the other side is the 'villanous agressor' ?
Amusing, nevertheless.
- Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim
Angels are never far...
Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
|
Haruchai Khan
Secretariat General of the Republic Fleet
61
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 08:41:49 -
[39] - Quote
Statement from the Republic Fleet Diplomatic Mission
"No assurances or communications from the Empire have been received in regard to the recent speech of Empress Jamyl announcing new warships. No diplomatic context has been forthcoming despite efforts to contact the various missions.
The Republic Fleet, on instruction from the Tribal Council, hereby announces that comparable technologies will be incorporated into a new class of Fleet Battleship in order to maintain a balance of power in the cluster. The Sanmatar has called on the other races of New Eden to announce similar measures so that Imperial ambition may be curbed by reality.
In addition, The Tribal Council has instructed that the Empire Threat Index be raised two levels to Imminent. Military preparations consistent with this heightened threat level are being implemented with immediate effect. This includes the Republic Fleet withdrawing the policing action taken to curb the frontline Militias from excessive activities in the disputed territories.
These announcements are made with regret. Whilst the Amarr Empire maintains - through a hardline reading of the doctrine of Reclaiming - this stance of permanent aggressive war towards all Peoples of the Cluster, it has made the pursuit of peace a complex matter. Once again the Empire has demonstrated its disregard for the rights of others by developing weapons of war that cannot be explained away as anything other than that aggression made material.
It is regrettable that the advances of the Pakhshi Peace Conferences have been so carelessly ignored, and that the contributions of the Amarr delegations have been shown to be mere misdirection. The Republic Fleet stands ready to defend our borders against any and all aggressors."
Statement Ends. No Questions will be taken at this time. |
Anslo
Scope Works
32047
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 11:36:04 -
[40] - Quote
Uuuuh what?
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
|
Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
459
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 11:38:10 -
[41] - Quote
Haruchai Khan wrote:Statement from the Republic Fleet Diplomatic Mission
"No assurances or communications from the Empire have been received in regard to the recent speech of Empress Jamyl announcing new warships. No diplomatic context has been forthcoming despite efforts to contact the various missions.
The Republic Fleet, on instruction from the Tribal Council, hereby announces that comparable technologies will be incorporated into a new class of Fleet Battleship in order to maintain a balance of power in the cluster. The Sanmatar has called on the other races of New Eden to announce similar measures so that Imperial ambition may be curbed by reality.
In addition, The Tribal Council has instructed that the Empire Threat Index be raised two levels to Imminent. Military preparations consistent with this heightened threat level are being implemented with immediate effect. This includes the Republic Fleet withdrawing the policing action taken to curb the frontline Militias from excessive activities in the disputed territories.
These announcements are made with regret. Whilst the Amarr Empire maintains - through a hardline reading of the doctrine of Reclaiming - this stance of permanent aggressive war towards all Peoples of the Cluster, it has made the pursuit of peace a complex matter. Once again the Empire has demonstrated its disregard for the rights of others by developing weapons of war that cannot be explained away as anything other than that aggression made material.
It is regrettable that the advances of the Pakhshi Peace Conferences have been so carelessly ignored, and that the contributions of the Amarr delegations have been shown to be mere misdirection. The Republic Fleet stands ready to defend our borders against any and all aggressors."
Statement Ends. No Questions will be taken at this time.
Would you mind presenting your credentials as an official spokesman of the official Republic Fleet and not a capsuleer corporation named conveniently?
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
149
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 12:01:09 -
[42] - Quote
It's a bit odd to watch these threads inevitably descend into "You started it!" "Nuh uh!" "Yuh huh!" albeit a bit more verbosely. In the end it doesn't matter. What is, is. This fight can only end with either the complete destruction of at least one of the sides or the release of our people.
There really is very little to discuss on that matter, so we will remain locked in war - officially or unofficially - either for perpetuity or until something rather major changes in New Eden. Peace is extremely unlikely and it's time we all started making peace with that fact. |
Hendar Attor
New Eden Cultural Exchange
Advent of Fate
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 14:50:44 -
[43] - Quote
In the grim, darkness of New Eden, there is only war? |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1984
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 15:01:02 -
[44] - Quote
Haruchai Khan wrote:The Republic Fleet stands ready to defend our borders against any and all aggressors.
You are the aggressors in this war.
"The word of the Empress is the word of God, the will of the Empress is the will of God. Let no man seek to shirk his obligations before God and His chosen representative in this world."
-- Datna Jesebel, Principal Clerk of the Theology Council
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
150
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 15:15:23 -
[45] - Quote
Let me cut the next couple of pages short:
Nuh-uh!
Yu-huh!
Nuh-uh!
Yu-huh!
Did I miss anything? |
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1978
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 15:18:52 -
[46] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:
There was a peace treaty. The old war was over.
But if you really want to go back to ancient history, the Matari were the original aggressors when the sinned against God.
Prove that your so-called god exists and that we "sinned" against it. Idiot.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
|
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1433
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 15:26:52 -
[47] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Let me cut the next couple of pages short:
Nuh-uh!
Yu-huh!
Nuh-uh!
Yu-huh!
Did I miss anything?
'My God's bigger than your non-belief in God'...
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
150
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 15:27:55 -
[48] - Quote
Nuh-uh! |
Hendar Attor
New Eden Cultural Exchange
Advent of Fate
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 15:30:11 -
[49] - Quote
/grabs popcorn |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Multicultural F1 Brigade
5336
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 16:01:49 -
[50] - Quote
Well, I certainly hope you lot get your thumbs out of your assess and sort out some sort of detente soon. The Gallente and my people are already getting bored of war and we've only been at it for a couple of centuries - I daresay that neither of our nations has any intention of being shackled to someone elses war indefinitely.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
|
Hendar Attor
New Eden Cultural Exchange
Advent of Fate
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 16:07:43 -
[51] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Well, I certainly hope you lot get your thumbs out of your assess and sort out some sort of detente soon.
And miss out on the chance for new toys to play with? You're kidding, right? |
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Sani-Sabik
892
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 17:24:00 -
[52] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:
Oh really? How the hell did she manage to "return from the dead" after her apparent ritual suicide during the succession trials, then?
Logically there are only two possibilities.
There is a third possibility.
Magic.
That aside, I have one, major objection to this whole shebang.
The Empress Jamyl, chose to style herself Jamyl Sarum 1.
This is, according to tradition, Utterly Unacceptable.
You see, when one becomes Emperor, or indeed, Empress, one is supposed to give up family associations, and join the Imperial Family, transcending mundane Family politics, and accepting the Duty of being the Representative to God, and all that.
Thusly, styling oneself Jamyl Sarum 1, instead of Jamyl 1, is to retain the Sarum Family link, and thusly, to promote the Sarum Family agenda.
Which is something that the Empress is supposed to be above !
Thusly, I object to this sort of thing.
Down with this sort of thing.
Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
|
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
955
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 17:46:52 -
[53] - Quote
Most likely a CONCORD registry thing.
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Jamyl%20I
The proper name is already taken. As usual, I blame lazy bureaucrats. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
450
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 18:01:57 -
[54] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:But if you really want to go back to ancient history, the Matari were the original aggressors when the sinned against God.
To quote a junior engineer I once flew with, upon seeing a hundred titans take the field at once, "Wow. Just... just wow."
If we were going to be so venal and ephemeral as to take that justification as valid, then what is there to invalidate any claim of justification for violence on similar grounds? 'I shot you because you sinned against God'.
Surely you can see how that sort of sophistry can lead to nothing but death and destruction in the long term, yes? |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2013
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 20:40:27 -
[55] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Rodj Blake wrote:
There was a peace treaty. The old war was over.
But if you really want to go back to ancient history, the Matari were the original aggressors when the sinned against God.
Prove that your so-called god exists and that we "sinned" against it. Idiot.
When we found you, you were a primitive people that had denied God. As an act of generosity they gave you technology far ahead of your own, we took you to the stars, taught you laws, and civilized you. And all this was repaid in terror and death!
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2013
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 20:42:45 -
[56] - Quote
On top of that, have you ever tried getting Concord to change your registry name? It's nigh on impossible!
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
160
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 20:44:22 -
[57] - Quote
You're really going to pretend we weren't among the stars already? Spirits below, that's a bit much even for you Blake. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2013
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 20:46:52 -
[58] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:You're really going to pretend we weren't among the stars already? Spirits below, that's a bit much even for you Blake.
I'm glad that you agree with me on the technology, civilization and law part.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
|
Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
160
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 20:53:02 -
[59] - Quote
Certainly, we made it to the stars and had the longest recorded period of peace in New Eden entirely through the use of basic grunts and skillful manipulation of wooden sticks. |
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
7337
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 21:33:21 -
[60] - Quote
And duct tape, Del'thul. Never forget the duct tape.
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
|
Alesius Lerance
Varner Industries
Shattered Vection
21
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 22:55:24 -
[61] - Quote
Honestly, what is it with Immortals and derailing threads? You have all eternity to debate these topics, quit being lazy and make a damn thread for them.
I too had the privilege of attending the Keel-laying. I was there both to represent my corporation and to represent the continued alliance between the Empire and the State. May her Holy Imperial Majesty reign for ten thousand years.
Does anyone have anything to say of the rumour that the Empress was ambushed by Drifters on the way back to Amarr (Yes I am going off topic and I can see the hypocrisy in that)
Family, Corporation, and State, in that order. What else is there worth fighting for?
|
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Jovian Labs
Jovian Enterprises
18833
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 23:01:43 -
[62] - Quote
Alesius Lerance wrote:Honestly, what is it with Immortals and derailing threads? You have all eternity to debate these topics, quit being lazy and make a damn thread for them.
I too had the privilege of attending the Keel-laying. I was there both to represent my corporation and to represent the continued alliance between the Empire and the State. May her Holy Imperial Majesty reign for ten thousand years.
Does anyone have anything to say of the rumour that the Empress was ambushed by Drifters on the way back to Amarr (Yes I am going off topic and I can see the hypocrisy in that)
It was indeed an honor to be in attendance. To answer: the rumors were false. No Tyrannos Vessels were present (which is in itself more suspicious than if they had appeared.
"A City made of Dreams...is built in heaven" - GÖâ-
GPƒ U-Ç+¬ß¦ç-ƒ's Sߦ¢ß¦Å-Ç-Å
|
Matar Ronin
631
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 23:22:53 -
[63] - Quote
Lord Kailethre wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong.
The only thing wrong here is you, jamyl is an ageless capsuleer. Are you so in awe of this matron of mass atrocity and the glitz of faux royalty you do not recognize the facts before your own eyes? Her Imperial Majesty is not a clone, and you have no evidence to support your claim. Although I can see why you might think so, she's clearly spent more time in space than you have. On what do you base this accusation? Present documentation of how you arrived at that conclusion, ....... if you dare, you wannabe lord of the lies!
I look forward to collecting insignias from the wrecks I make of this new class of ship, any chance they will be different from the standard imperial navy insignia i pluck from the vessels I destroy almost daily?
GÇÿVain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.GÇÖ
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
482
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 02:53:46 -
[64] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:When we found you, you were a primitive people that had denied God. As an act of generosity we gave you technology far ahead of your own, we took you to the stars, taught you laws, and civilized you. And all this was repaid in terror and death!
Just to make more explicitly clear the point my good kinswoman has raised: when you found us, the Starkmanir already had an entire second homeworld established. A homeworld your people enslaved, and then later obliterated via orbital bombardment. So please, do not patronize anyone by claiming the Amarr took us to the stars.
And to Alesius Lerance: I apologize for the tangent, but truly, some claims are just too egregious to allow to stand unchallenged, lest others take silence for assent. From the information available, no Drifter-class battleships are known to have attacked the Empress' Avatar, though there is some speculation that they may not leave the new Imperial Abaddon similarly unmolested. Especially not, as some within the Imperium have posited, the Imperial Abaddon proves to be specifically designed around the new Entosis systems - perhaps even including a modified version of the station shields that the Empress distributed against CONCORD's wishes.
But for that, we shall have to await the Auctoritas' completion and shakedown trials. Or successful espionage on the part of the Caldari State to fall into the Guristas' hands. Really, it's amazing how often they just happen to 'steal' technology from the State, isn't it? |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1209
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 08:13:01 -
[65] - Quote
Matar Ronin wrote:Lord Kailethre wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong.
The only thing wrong here is you, jamyl is an ageless capsuleer. Are you so in awe of this matron of mass atrocity and the glitz of faux royalty you do not recognize the facts before your own eyes? Her Imperial Majesty is not a clone, and you have no evidence to support your claim. Although I can see why you might think so, she's clearly spent more time in space than you have. On what do you base this accusation? Present documentation of how you arrived at that conclusion, ....... if you dare, you wannabe lord of the lies!
Respectfully, I think you may be confusing on whose shoulders lies the burden of proof, sir...
Most Amarr emperors and Holders can live centuries with the right implants... Being 100 and looking ageless is a pretty common sight, and not only in the Amarr Empire...
Now then, Jamyl Sarum death was witnessed back in YC107 by many eyes. Some choose to believe that she now is a clone, some choose to believe that she revived, or survived. Some choose to believe in the sanctity of flesh, some do not. Even the TC is currently split on the issue.
That sounds like a lot of statements and conjectures on every side of the fence... |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1209
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 08:25:44 -
[66] - Quote
Currently, I am much more puzzled by one of the declarations made by the empress in that ceremony and that seems to have slid under the radar...
"their [The Drifters] origins are unknown, but they are certainly no product of the Lord's work"
That in itself, is a ground breaking declaration to me. I am surprised that nobody, either among baseliners or capsuleers, has noticed it yet. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1439
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 09:14:28 -
[67] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Currently, I am much more puzzled by one of the declarations made by the empress in that ceremony and that seems to have slid under the radar...
"their [The Drifters] origins are unknown, but they are certainly no product of the Lord's work"
That in itself, is a ground breaking declaration to me. I am surprised that nobody, either among baseliners or capsuleers, has noticed it yet.
How silly of me, I thought all things in creation were supposed to be part of their God's plan? If the Drifters aren't part of his plan then that must surely mean the he is not omnipotent and infallible? If they are part of his plan who are the Amarr to question his will? |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1439
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 09:16:59 -
[68] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Lord Kailethre wrote:Matar Ronin wrote:Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
It must be noted that the Empress appears considerably more tired and aged than before; though many factors must be considered, something may be wrong.
The only thing wrong here is you, jamyl is an ageless capsuleer. Are you so in awe of this matron of mass atrocity and the glitz of faux royalty you do not recognize the facts before your own eyes? Her Imperial Majesty is not a clone, and you have no evidence to support your claim. Although I can see why you might think so, she's clearly spent more time in space than you have. On what do you base this accusation? Present documentation of how you arrived at that conclusion, ....... if you dare, you wannabe lord of the lies! Respectfully, I think you may be confusing on whose shoulders lies the burden of proof, sir... Most Amarr emperors and Holders can live centuries with the right implants... Being 100 and looking ageless is a pretty common sight, and not only in the Amarr Empire... Now then, Jamyl Sarum death was witnessed back in YC107 by many eyes. Some choose to believe that she now is a clone, some choose to believe that she revived, or survived. Some choose to believe in the sanctity of flesh, some do not. Even the TC is currently split on the issue. That sounds like a lot of statements and conjectures on every side of the fence...
To be honest I don't understand the fuss about whether she's a clone or not. Surely it would be only prudent for a personage in such a position to take any and all precautions to protect themselves? I'd go as far as to say it is even their duty to their people to do so.
I'm more concerned with the fact that she is (possibly) a hot clone, priorities and all that... |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1210
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 10:37:08 -
[69] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Currently, I am much more puzzled by one of the declarations made by the empress in that ceremony and that seems to have slid under the radar...
"their [The Drifters] origins are unknown, but they are certainly no product of the Lord's work"
That in itself, is a ground breaking declaration to me. I am surprised that nobody, either among baseliners or capsuleers, has noticed it yet. How silly of me, I thought all things in creation were supposed to be part of their God's plan? If the Drifters aren't part of his plan then that must surely mean the he is not omnipotent and infallible? If they are part of his plan who are the Amarr to question his will?
It again puts into perspective the omnipotence paradox as applied to the Amarr religion. |
Kontrahage
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
92
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 10:46:38 -
[70] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Currently, I am much more puzzled by one of the declarations made by the empress in that ceremony and that seems to have slid under the radar...
"their [The Drifters] origins are unknown, but they are certainly no product of the Lord's work"
That in itself, is a ground breaking declaration to me. I am surprised that nobody, either among baseliners or capsuleers, has noticed it yet. How silly of me, I thought all things in creation were supposed to be part of their God's plan? If the Drifters aren't part of his plan then that must surely mean the he is not omnipotent and infallible? If they are part of his plan who are the Amarr to question his will?
Her holyness said, they are not his work, not they are not part of his plan as if he were surprised and threatened by them.
The evils commited by men are their work, not his even though he is perfectly aware of them. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1440
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 10:58:16 -
[71] - Quote
Kontrahage wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Currently, I am much more puzzled by one of the declarations made by the empress in that ceremony and that seems to have slid under the radar...
"their [The Drifters] origins are unknown, but they are certainly no product of the Lord's work"
That in itself, is a ground breaking declaration to me. I am surprised that nobody, either among baseliners or capsuleers, has noticed it yet. How silly of me, I thought all things in creation were supposed to be part of their God's plan? If the Drifters aren't part of his plan then that must surely mean the he is not omnipotent and infallible? If they are part of his plan who are the Amarr to question his will? Her holyness said, they are not his work, not they are not part of his plan as if he were surprised and threatened by them. The evils commited by men are their work, not his even though he is perfectly aware of them.
But surely if they are of unknown origins how can anyone say that they are not part of your God's work? By definition this is unknown.
I'm not arguing on an anti-religious basis here, more curious as to the theological discussion and decision making process.
|
Kontrahage
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
92
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 11:09:04 -
[72] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Kontrahage wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Currently, I am much more puzzled by one of the declarations made by the empress in that ceremony and that seems to have slid under the radar...
"their [The Drifters] origins are unknown, but they are certainly no product of the Lord's work"
That in itself, is a ground breaking declaration to me. I am surprised that nobody, either among baseliners or capsuleers, has noticed it yet. How silly of me, I thought all things in creation were supposed to be part of their God's plan? If the Drifters aren't part of his plan then that must surely mean the he is not omnipotent and infallible? If they are part of his plan who are the Amarr to question his will? Her holyness said, they are not his work, not they are not part of his plan as if he were surprised and threatened by them. The evils commited by men are their work, not his even though he is perfectly aware of them. But surely if they are of unknown origins how can anyone say that they are not part of your God's work? By definition this is unknown. I'm not arguing on an anti-religious basis here, more curious as to the theological discussion and decision making process.
It was not just anyone who said it but her Holiness the empress, who speaks with God's own voice. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2020
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 11:27:46 -
[73] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:Currently, I am much more puzzled by one of the declarations made by the empress in that ceremony and that seems to have slid under the radar...
"their [The Drifters] origins are unknown, but they are certainly no product of the Lord's work"
That in itself, is a ground breaking declaration to me. I am surprised that nobody, either among baseliners or capsuleers, has noticed it yet. How silly of me, I thought all things in creation were supposed to be part of their God's plan? If the Drifters aren't part of his plan then that must surely mean the he is not omnipotent and infallible? If they are part of his plan who are the Amarr to question his will? It again puts into perspective the omnipotence paradox as applied to the Amarr religion.
There is no such paradox.
Omnipotence includes the ability to not use that omnipotence.
Also, you have to remember that God's greatest gift to mankind is free will.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1440
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 11:37:46 -
[74] - Quote
Kontrahage wrote:...previous theoligical debate...
It was not just anyone who said it but her Holiness the empress, who speaks with God's own voice.
Even so surely if everything is part of God's plan that that would mean that the Drfiters are also a part of that plan too. If they are not then that would imply that God's plan is at least a little fallible. |
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
294
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 12:00:35 -
[75] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Kontrahage wrote:...previous theoligical debate...
It was not just anyone who said it but her Holiness the empress, who speaks with God's own voice. Even so surely if everything is part of God's plan that that would mean that the Drfiters are also a part of that plan too. If they are not then that would imply that God's plan is at least a little fallible.
One without faith debating matters of faith is about as wise as a blind person debating color.
Perhaps you could try to pretend to be an expert at something else?
Dark Amarr: Rumors!
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Kontrahage
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
92
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 12:23:14 -
[76] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Kontrahage wrote:...previous theoligical debate...
It was not just anyone who said it but her Holiness the empress, who speaks with God's own voice. Even so surely if everything is part of God's plan that that would mean that the Drfiters are also a part of that plan too. If they are not then that would imply that God's plan is at least a little fallible.
I'd like to refer you to my previous post:
Kontrahage wrote:
Her holyness said, they are not his work, not they are not part of his plan as if he were surprised and threatened by them.
The evils commited by men are their work, not his even though he is perfectly aware of them.
Nobody said, they were not part of his plan.
We do not know why he allowed their creation or other things such as the majority of mankind falling from the faith.
I understand that someone without the faith will not agree with our trust in his plan but her Majesty's revelation that the Drifters
are not His work is in not in contradiction with his omnipotence and omniscience. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
504
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 14:28:29 -
[77] - Quote
Kontrahage wrote:
It was not just anyone who said it but her Holiness the empress, who speaks with God's own voice.
Perhaps, but it would seem she could use a little more care and specificity in her words, no?
"their [The Drifters] origins are unknown, but they are certainly no product of the Lord's work"
The Lord created the universe, the stars, and everything else, yes? However indirectly, the Drifters are a product of that act of Creation. Perhaps it might have been better to say 'they are a corruption and perversion of the still-unknown form the Lord held for them in their beginnings'?
Less succinct, of course, but... |
Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
482
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 14:46:12 -
[78] - Quote
The Drifters could be seen as a corruption of the Lord's work, and therefore would not be considered His work. We as imperfect humans can create imperfect objects against the will of God. In no way did the Empress contradict on God's omnipotence. He would have foreseen the Drifters, but they were not of His hands, but by scientific reasoning as reported in the recent autopsy, Man's hands. Most likely the Jove.
Man's works, unless done in the glory of God and within the Scriptures, are not the Lord's work. Nor does God reveal all to the Empress, He would know their origin, but likely challanges us to find said origin by not revealing it to Her Majesty.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1214
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:21:14 -
[79] - Quote
Everything has to be part of his plan, or work, or else the omnipotence comes into question once again.
However, as admiral Blake said above, it can also be by design.
This is why I find those word highly intriguing. They seem to fit to one of the explanations for the paradox of omnipotence, and this one is merely that no other entity can enter in competition with the Divine. It also implies that the Divine is not necessarily all powerful or omnipotent.
I also do not think that this view is heretical, but merely part of the heterodoxy. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
509
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:21:59 -
[80] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:The Drifters could be seen as a corruption of the Lord's work, and therefore would not be considered His work.
But they are still a product of his work, no? Without his work in Creation, they could not exist. The Rattlesnake is not the work of the Caldari, but it is an indirect product of the work of the Caldari in their Scorpion design. |
Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
485
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:26:40 -
[81] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:The Drifters could be seen as a corruption of the Lord's work, and therefore would not be considered His work. But they are still a product of his work, no? Without his work in Creation, they could not exist. The Rattlesnake is not the work of the Caldari, but it is an indirect product of the work of the Caldari in their Scorpion design.
God created the Foundations of everything yes, but the fact this is a work of Man corrupting the Lord's work makes it the Lord's work no longer. It has lost the original divine form by that act of perversion
One example of this is Humanity. All of Humanity was the Lord's work, and were united with Him. All but the Amarr fell from Him, and became the Lord's work, the Lord's Chosen no longer. It is Man's work in the benefit of God to reclaim Humanity to restore God's work. That is our mission.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
511
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 15:45:09 -
[82] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:
God created the Foundations of everything yes, but the fact this is a work of Man corrupting the Lord's work makes it the Lord's work no longer. It has lost the original divine form by that act of perversion
One example of this is Humanity. All of Humanity was the Lord's work, and were united with Him. All but the Amarr fell from Him, and became the Lord's work, the Lord's Chosen no longer. It is Man's work in the benefit of God to reclaim Humanity to restore God's work. That is our mission.
Of course. I was simply pointing out that regardless of the Drifters' clearly corrupted current aspect, they - like everything else that exists - would by necessity have to be a 'product of the Lord's work', however indirectly. The statement wasn't simply that the Drifters were not the direct result of the Lord's guidance, but that they were not products of his work - and that, clearly, could have been better put. |
Quin Mansa
Mamelik Hurusiyyad
51
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 16:19:26 -
[83] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:All of Humanity was the Lord's work, and were united with Him. All but the Amarr fell from Him, and became the Lord's work, the Lord's Chosen no longer. It is Man's work in the benefit of God to reclaim Humanity to restore God's work. That is our mission.
Well-spoken, Aspirant Onzo. Surely, the faithful are emboldened in their task of Reclaim God's children, thanks the the blessing and directive of Her Imperial Majesty. Let our souls be tempered in the fires that forge the Auctoritas, and our devotion to God likewise be brazen. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1216
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 16:31:21 -
[84] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:Arrendis wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:The Drifters could be seen as a corruption of the Lord's work, and therefore would not be considered His work. But they are still a product of his work, no? Without his work in Creation, they could not exist. The Rattlesnake is not the work of the Caldari, but it is an indirect product of the work of the Caldari in their Scorpion design. God created the Foundations of everything yes, but the fact this is a work of Man corrupting the Lord's work makes it the Lord's work no longer. It has lost the original divine form by that act of perversion One example of this is Humanity. All of Humanity was the Lord's work, and were united with Him. All but the Amarr fell from Him, and became the Lord's work, the Lord's Chosen no longer. It is Man's work in the benefit of God to reclaim Humanity to restore God's work. That is our mission.
Technically, if man corrupts the work of God, then it is because the Divine has designed it to be that way, if he still is to be omnipotent. Thus, it is part of the Divine design, and so of the work of God. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
512
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 17:11:13 -
[85] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Technically, if man corrupts the work of God, then it is because the Divine has designed it to be that way, if he still is to be omnipotent. Thus, it is part of the Divine design, and so of the work of God.
Omnipotence doesn't necessarily require the exercise of that omnipotence, however. If the Amarr are right about the existence of God, then by simply virtue of omnipotence, this God fellow would have the power to not intervene and enforce his will. I know it might seem a bit odd to think of it that way, but look at it like this:
If God creates something that has the capacity for free will, then it stands to reason that free will will at some point run counter to what God might like. If God has anticipated this and accounted for it, then this action contrary to his desires - which is a different thing than his will - would still be part of 'God's Plan'.
Moreover, if, when such an act of free will corrupts God's work, God is then obligated or required in some way to correct the deviation from his will, then God is not omnipotent - he himself lacks the power to choose not to intervene. Thus, in order to be omnipotent, God must have the power to allow contravention of his intent to endure.
It's a tricky thing, being Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. That's why rather than attempt to parse God - which would take many, many centuries and is likely something I'll be indulging my immortal conceits over, oh, the next two or three thousand years or so - I'm starting off small by examining the claim of the Emperor/Empress's infallibility. Presumably, the Imperial Head of State retains the free will gifted to all other beings under the tenets of Amarr dogma, and so can choose to give an order that runs counter to God's Will. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1217
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 18:08:30 -
[86] - Quote
That is what I tackled above... It depends on the definitions people give to Divine omnipotence. I suppose that the Empress gives it a widely different meaning that I do.
I usually take it as an absolute. The free will and resulting actions you mention, are included and part of the divine plan and thus already accounted for. They do not go against it, because they are part of it by design. |
Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
489
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 20:46:59 -
[87] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:
Of course. I was simply pointing out that regardless of the Drifters' clearly corrupted current aspect, they - like everything else that exists - would by necessity have to be a 'product of the Lord's work', however indirectly. The statement wasn't simply that the Drifters were not the direct result of the Lord's guidance, but that they were not products of his work - and that, clearly, could have been better put.
Her Majesty explicitly said Lord's work, not Lord's product. While I can see the strings you're threading here to try to connect the two, it just doesn't work. An example if I may.
One cannot call fat sugar. Fat is made, in its consitutional parts, from sugars. This is an over simplification of course, but it sets the example straight. Fat is still fat. Man's work, though built on the Lord's foundation, is still Man's work.
Regardless, it is the duty of us, as the followers of the faith, to understand the message of God as relayed by Her Majesty. She is infallible, so if there is confusion on the meaning of her words it is either because it was intended to be confusing so as to lay out a challenge to us to follow, or it is by a failing of us to correctly understand. regardless, in my own humble opinion, I think you're really pulling at thin strings to conect foundation with final product and call it ultimately the foundation layer's sole work.
Arrendis wrote:Omnipotence doesn't necessarily require the exercise of that omnipotence, however. If the Amarr are right about the existence of God, then by simply virtue of omnipotence, this God fellow would have the power to not intervene and enforce his will. I know it might seem a bit odd to think of it that way, but look at it like this:
If God creates something that has the capacity for free will, then it stands to reason that free will will at some point run counter to what God might like. If God has anticipated this and accounted for it, then this action contrary to his desires - which is a different thing than his will - would still be part of 'God's Plan'.
That's actually not a bad description on free will. My own humble opinion is that free will was granted to us for purpose of testing us. We, as humans, are imperfect beings, but perhaps with time and experiance across eons, we might become closer, more perfect beings to better please God. That is not to suggest we usurp the heirarch of course. The True Amarr are place above me, the Holders above the rest of the True Amarr, Heirs above them, Empress above the Heirs, the Angels of God above the Empress and God above all others.
The first real test of our free will was a choice. We could follow God, and at one time all humanity did. We could also walk away from God, and my Ni-Kunni and Civire ancestors did so. God willed us to remain under him, but foresaw that many of humanity would walk from him. He planned for this through the True Amarr. The Chosen. Theirs is the mission to reclaim us, and restore us all back under Him.
God has AEONS to fix our mistakes if he so needs to, but through trial across those aeons we are perhaps being tested to see if we cannot fix them ourselves. Free will is frought with mistakes and treachery, but it breeds experiance in those that follow the righteous path and rise above them.
EDIT: I realse this debate is getting widly off the OP's topic. Perhaps a new thread on the matter if all told are in agreement?
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
530
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:00:21 -
[88] - Quote
Utari Onzo wrote:EDIT: I realse this debate is getting widly off the OP's topic. Perhaps a new thread on the matter if all told are in agreement?
I'm not opposed to a dedicated discussion, but be aware you're as unlikely to convert me as I am to convert you. Conversation is only dangerous to those who fear a critical examination of their claims. |
Utari Onzo
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
489
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:05:11 -
[89] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:EDIT: I realse this debate is getting widly off the OP's topic. Perhaps a new thread on the matter if all told are in agreement? I'm not opposed to a dedicated discussion, but be aware you're as unlikely to convert me as I am to convert you. Conversation is only dangerous to those who fear a critical examination of their claims.
I can but try. However, it's nice when people at the very least leave with a far better understanding of us faithful and how we think.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
|
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
74
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 22:20:17 -
[90] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:Utari Onzo wrote:The Drifters could be seen as a corruption of the Lord's work, and therefore would not be considered His work. But they are still a product of his work, no? Without his work in Creation, they could not exist. The Rattlesnake is not the work of the Caldari, but it is an indirect product of the work of the Caldari in their Scorpion design.
You really like picking on the State don't you? You wanna talk philosophies of ship building...
Here... read this will ya...
Then we'll talk turkey...
Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne
Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.
Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.
Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.
When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
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Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
539
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 02:51:42 -
[91] - Quote
Enya Sparhawk wrote:You really like picking on the State don't you? You wanna talk philosophies of ship building...
Actually, no, I simply live in Deklein, and deal with the Guristas and the damage they do on a regular basis, so they're who came to mind. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
6836
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 07:53:37 -
[92] - Quote
The empress is more chatty than usual these days.
No offense but I find her a bit odd. In her eyes. Like she seen things way off the map.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
75
|
Posted - 2015.07.22 21:52:36 -
[93] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:The empress is more chatty than usual these days.
No offense but I find her a bit odd. In her eyes. Like she seen things way off the map.
*Sigh* (rolls her eyes) This from a Gallentean...
You know in my culture, The Way calls that 'seeing the forest for the Kresh trees.'
Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne
Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.
Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.
Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.
When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
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