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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.02 17:41:00 -
[1]
with kali artillery is simply obsolete...
with kali we had some very important changes to long range weapons... - T2 "sniper" ammo range was lowered... making range a more important factor than before... if earlier was possible to reach 200-250km range with every weapon this is no more possible after kali
- hps boos... made alpha way less important... higher the hps more time you use to break the tank, more important is dps (this is expecially true with passive BS tanking)
- introduction of shield tank long range BS... i'm not going to discuss this but is still something to consider... before kali explosive damage was very effective as all fleet BS where armor tanked, after kali probably a good par of fleet ships will shield tank, making explosion damage less effective
comparing arty to rails is quite clear that there is a huge umbalance between these weapons
arty have better - alpha: not anymore an important factor in eve
- cap usage: even if compared to rails the difference is ininfluential as with fleet setup (main role for long range weapons) a passive tank is the way to go and all the cap can be used for weapons... 8 425mm consume around 27 cap/s a t3 BS have around 20 cap/s regeneration so not a real problem considering that in fleet you are not constantly firing... but you have to switch targets, warp, reload...
rails instead have - better dps 1 of the 2 main factor of long range weapons - better range the second main factor - better tracking not as important as previous ones but usefull for smaller ships - better fitting
as you can see in this graph arty vs rails
the difference for these weapons is really huge and not compensated in any way...
so... can we get arty fixed?
3 ideas to fix them... - boost dps by at least 30% making them inbetween lasers and rails (not my fav solution as will be possible to make lasers obsolete)
- boost range by a 40-50% (this is my fav... very simple fix and extremely balanced)
- boost faloff (this is probably the most interesting solution as proj have the best faloff that atm is totally useless for long range, but also is the most difficult to balance and probably will require a rework of ammos and ACs too)
pleeeaseeee
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2006.12.02 17:52:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 02/12/2006 17:52:26
Originally by: Ath Amon
- cap usage: even if compared to rails the difference is ininfluential as with fleet setup (main role for long range weapons) a passive tank is the way to go and all the cap can be used for weapons... 8 425mm consume around 27 cap/s a t3 BS have around 20 cap/s regeneration so not a real problem considering that in fleet you are not constantly firing... but you have to switch targets, warp, reload...
Even the large long range weapons are used outside of fleets though--and then there's the mediums and smalls. How do you regard the balance of arty vs. rail or laser outside of fleets? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Tiuwaz
Minmatar Omacron Militia
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Posted - 2006.12.02 17:57:00 -
[3]
i hear you, problem is they have no idea what to do with arty, they wont give us back an alphastrike that matters, nor do they have any new idea for arties
any boost they are likely to provide will just make them more similar to rails, while still staying inferior
an active shieldtanking boat as tier 3 arty BS didnt really help
i have reactivated an old caldari char with cal BS 5 for Rokh, artillery/minni bs (bs 5 and large arty spec 4 on my main) have no to little point atm, and i dont see them changing anything in the near future
Originally by: Gallente Information Ministry A Myrmidon pilot with 5 heavy drones is a bad pilot, someone who dies to him can only be worse.
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.02 18:02:00 -
[4]
I've given up and will train for Abaddon for PVP when I'm done with my Nerfhoggur training ...
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Brother Todd
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Posted - 2006.12.02 18:06:00 -
[5]
This has got to be the most stupid graph I have ever seen, no ship bonus on the artys there?
Can anybody post a graph comparing a Maelstrom, Rokh and a Megathron to show this man that artillery actually outdamage rails.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.02 19:40:00 -
[6]
why i have to compare ships if i'm speaking about weapon balance?
to have umbalanced weapons force to create umbalance ship to achieve an overall balance (something that is extremely problematic) or end up with ships that are as umbalanced as the weapons themselves...
you speak about maelstorm and rokh... these ships are not balanced at all... i have quite a lot of graph with mael and rokh and the caldari ship with 4 modules (dmg) is waaaaaaaaaay better than the minmatar ship using 6 modules (3 dmg + 3 track) as the dps difference is only by a 7% in favor of mael while the range difference is around 40km... (using 2 less mods)
add a track enhancer to the rokh and the difference is 80km...
ther's a reason why some alliances asked to their fleet pilots to train for the rokh... don't you think...
instead to search the problem in the ship themselves (that are quite similar) i think the real problem is in the weapons themselves that are extremely umbalanced and so they translate this umbalance to their ships...
for smaller ships it depends... as said my fav wasy to rebalance it is by a range boost and even with small ships this should be not a problem...
still if a rebalance of this type can make smaller arty overpowered (don't think as the rail advantage atm is big both in dps and range) the changes can be tweaked differently for large and smaller guns
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BlackDog Rackh'am
Minmatar Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.12.02 19:42:00 -
[7]
Without going into a whole lot of math and graphs, what i'd like to see is artillery being what it's supposed to be.
Low DPS, low tracking, adequate range (rails should still have longer optimal) and ALPHA. If ships are getting tougher, just give us a higher dmg mod and i'm happy with it.
Maybe not so much as to go back in time to the days of instapop, but when i fire a volley of 1400s i'd like to see a couple of big chunks fly off the enemy ship. Just the way it was supposed to be.
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Brother Todd
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Posted - 2006.12.02 20:40:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ath Amon why i have to compare ships if i'm speaking about weapon balance?
to have umbalanced weapons force to create umbalance ship to achieve an overall balance (something that is extremely problematic) or end up with ships that are as umbalanced as the weapons themselves...
you speak about maelstorm and rokh... these ships are not balanced at all... i have quite a lot of graph with mael and rokh and the caldari ship with 4 modules (dmg) is waaaaaaaaaay better than the minmatar ship using 6 modules (3 dmg + 3 track) as the dps difference is only by a 7% in favor of mael while the range difference is around 40km... (using 2 less mods)
add a track enhancer to the rokh and the difference is 80km...
ther's a reason why some alliances asked to their fleet pilots to train for the rokh... don't you think...
instead to search the problem in the ship themselves (that are quite similar) i think the real problem is in the weapons themselves that are extremely umbalanced and so they translate this umbalance to their ships...
for smaller ships it depends... as said my fav wasy to rebalance it is by a range boost and even with small ships this should be not a problem...
still if a rebalance of this type can make smaller arty overpowered (don't think as the rail advantage atm is big both in dps and range) the changes can be tweaked differently for large and smaller guns
Umbalance is not a word, even if you really believe it is. You claimed the dps was lower when in fact it isn't - you're an ass. The range is a different story no argument there.. just don't post utter crap to try and lobby a arty boost. The devs are hopefully smarter than that.
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Morreia
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Posted - 2006.12.02 21:09:00 -
[9]
I never get how they can truly call it artilery when all it does is scratch the surface of alot of things. I mean cmon. Artilery is meant to be the heaviest type of guns going. THese things should steriotipically be able to lvl fortresses after a few good vollys but in game they can sometimes barley get through sheilds.
I think Artys should do enough damage to get though an armour tankers sheilds in a decent volley or about half a sheild anks sheilds.
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Ariel Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.02 21:18:00 -
[10]
Double the damage and half the RoF. Will create an alpha that people will truley fear instead of laugh at.
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.02 21:42:00 -
[11]
Only sensible solution is to increase range... it seems logical that artileries should hit further than rails.
I'm against any more dps adjustments... it seems pretty balanced atm
i.e. rails on top (using cap and ammo), lazers behind (only with armageddon,using cap), arties a tad behind (using no cap, but ammo), missiles rock short range but at long range they're not viable.
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Hunter C8
Caldari Red Storm Vendetta
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Posted - 2006.12.02 22:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Double the damage and half the RoF. Will create an alpha that people will truley fear instead of laugh at.
This is something I'd like to see, I'm not matar, but I feel for them as a fellow corp mate of mine struggles to use artillery effectively on his cyclone...The alpha they have at the moment is, as you say laughable, I don't care about their range, maybe they just aren't for fleet engagements, but I do care that they're quite useless guns at the moment, give them their alpha back, they really deserve it... ------- Red Storm Vendetta Recruiting! |
mallina
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.02 23:07:00 -
[13]
last thing we need to see is gangs of 1400pests instapopping everything in sight
for one, you use a whole ZERO cap on your guns fit an Abaddon with Tachs, you get fairly decent DPS (considering the range) for the first minute or two but then your cap is out and you're forced to either wait for it to regen or fire the cap injector, just to maintain your guns :/
Artilleries already got a boost anyway didnt they? ----------- Turbulance |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.12.02 23:24:00 -
[14]
Have you tried looking at Damage Over Time, instead of DPS? I.E. who does the most damage in the first 60 seconds of a fight (assuming the fight even lasts that long). |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.03 15:40:00 -
[15]
you mean cumulative damage?
yup looked even at it... for the first min and half the damage is quite near... but longer the combat and worse the arty performs
note that is not that alpha make it superior for first min, it depends at wich second you look... maybe later i'll post a graph about it.
for alpha i don't think it is a solution at all... why?
in my opinion the boost to hps is not just a way to make fight last longer... but an intended nerf to alpha. people don't want to get instapopped they want to have a chance to react and so on...
if you think about it a boost to dmg by a 50% (lowering rof) was quite a natural way to make arty a more unique weapon preserving its strong points... still it was not used.
also personally i don't think that in EVE alpha is so viable... imo alpha can be balanced with dps in situation with lower tanks and ability to deal damage to the opponent whitout destroying his ship... this in form of small tank -> huge structure or with different ship areas with local armor/shield
these are reason i have not considered an alpha boost as a solution... simply is not going to happen
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slothe
Caldari Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.03 15:46:00 -
[16]
Edited by: slothe on 03/12/2006 15:50:30 im half way through training lvl 5s for minnie bs arty :/
1 thing that you say - you cant change art to make them between lasers and hybrids. thats hybrids. hybrids are meant to be halfway between arty and lasers - damage almost as good but not as much cap use as lasers.
Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar |
Dixon
Caldari Hells Donkeys
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Posted - 2006.12.03 15:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ath Amon
in my opinion the boost to hps is not just a way to make fight last longer... but an intended nerf to alpha. people don't want to get instapopped they want to have a chance to react and so on...
if you think about it a boost to dmg by a 50% (lowering rof) was quite a natural way to make arty a more unique weapon preserving its strong points... still it was not used.
So you realize CCP didn't like things getting instapopped but you still thing the best solution is to give artillery 50% higher alpha strikes. Great idea. - - - - - -
Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.03 16:04:00 -
[18]
dps in function of time is a bit problematic to look at... generally to do that you use cumulative damage that compare how much damage ships have dealt in a given moment.
and no if you read at my first post i have not suggested an alpha boost, in the quote you posted i was telling that the alpha boost was the simplest solution to keep arty efficency but it was not taken in consideration by devs... so is not a viable solution
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Dixon
Caldari Hells Donkeys
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Posted - 2006.12.03 16:15:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ath Amon dps in function of time is a bit problematic to look at... generally to do that you use cumulative damage that compare how much damage ships have dealt in a given moment.
and no if you read at my first post i have not suggested an alpha boost, in the quote you posted i was telling that the alpha boost was the simplest solution to keep arty efficency but it was not taken in consideration by devs... so is not a viable solution
Ok a simple misunderstanding. But don't get me wrong here, artillery could use a boost. They are currently a bit sub-par as sniping weapons. But if anything they need range, not damage. - - - - - -
Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.12.04 07:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: mallina last thing we need to see is gangs of 1400pests instapopping everything in sight
for one, you use a whole ZERO cap on your guns fit an Abaddon with Tachs, you get fairly decent DPS (considering the range) for the first minute or two but then your cap is out and you're forced to either wait for it to regen or fire the cap injector, just to maintain your guns :/
Artilleries already got a boost anyway didnt they?
Fit an abbadon with tachs and watch a ferox laugh at you in local as you run out of cap before the ferox has to use there second cap booster.
/wave doom. pilot
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Crellion
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.04 08:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ath Amon why i have to compare ships if i'm speaking about weapon balance? + stuff
I ll take a wild guess: So that people have a harder time realising you are clueless?
On topic: Alphastrike is a huge deal in fleets. Maelstrom will do 2x the damage of a Rokh in that initial volley and BSs still instapop more likely than not in fleet combat.
In a theoretical situation where 20 Maels battle it with 20 rokhs whoever ends up holding the field in the end I d bed on the Rokhs to take more losses with no proper tackling defo. In fact 15+ BS on each side I d say gives the Maelstrom a definite edge (provided your pilots no about primaries etc ).
Of course Rokhs could win IF (notice the big if):
(a) They could determine range (warp in on people instead of being warped in) (b) They were in a Rokh only fleet (c) They had excellent tackling support and the enemy didnt have anti-frig support.
All things considered a rather small niche...
In generic fleet fighting I d say ... hmmmm: 1) Abaddon + Maelstrom 2) Tempest + Megathron + Hyperion 3) Rokh 4) Apoc + Geddon 5) Scorpion + Raven 6) Domi + Phoon
Is probably the order of usefulness... give or take... but we will just have to wait and see, wont we? Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Demion Tora
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Posted - 2006.12.04 08:57:00 -
[22]
Personally i think that to increase the damage of the artillery turrets to increase the alpha strike would be the worst way to go.
It will only lead to a similar situation that occured like over 2 years ago when lasers sucked bigtime. The Projpoc and now Projaddon ( maybe even Railpoc and Railaddon ) will be more used than ever since with the armor increase you would be able to tank like a maniac directing all your cap to the armor repairers.
But sadly that is already happening, Amarrians train projektile guns since their own weapons take to much cap in comparison to what they give and Minmatar train Amarr ships since they can use their huge amount of gunneryskills on an ship that has much more armor and turretpoints than their own ships.
I rather see that they reduce all stats on the guns and instead increase the bonuses on the ships to make it more favorable to use the different races weapons on their own ships.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.04 13:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Crellion
Originally by: Ath Amon why i have to compare ships if i'm speaking about weapon balance? + stuff
I ll take a wild guess: So that people have a harder time realising you are clueless?
On topic: Alphastrike is a huge deal in fleets. Maelstrom will do 2x the damage of a Rokh in that initial volley and BSs still instapop more likely than not in fleet combat.
In a theoretical situation where 20 Maels battle it with 20 rokhs whoever ends up holding the field in the end I d bed on the Rokhs to take more losses with no proper tackling defo. In fact 15+ BS on each side I d say gives the Maelstrom a definite edge (provided your pilots no about primaries etc ).
Of course Rokhs could win IF (notice the big if):
(a) They could determine range (warp in on people instead of being warped in) (b) They were in a Rokh only fleet (c) They had excellent tackling support and the enemy didnt have anti-frig support.
All things considered a rather small niche...
In generic fleet fighting I d say ... hmmmm: 1) Abaddon + Maelstrom 2) Tempest + Megathron + Hyperion 3) Rokh 4) Apoc + Geddon 5) Scorpion + Raven 6) Domi + Phoon
Is probably the order of usefulness... give or take... but we will just have to wait and see, wont we?
Rokh will simply obliterate the mael as they will stay at 200-230km... out of mael range...
so it will be something like Rokh beat Mael 20 vs 0
if ipotetically battle will be at Mael range i think Rokhs will still easilly win... explo damage will be crap against heavy tanked rokhs so both alpha and dps(only 7% superior regardles rof bonus) will get a big hit...
also i think people tend to overestimate a bit alpha... is not that with alpha you destroy 2 ships in 1 shot... also alpha get quite normalized in fleets and as said i don't consider EVE an alpha friendly game...
is nice to have alpha but is not a balancing factor for long range weapons as dps and range are
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.12.06 11:39:00 -
[24]
as said in another post here the bump to show the situation between rails and arty
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