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Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:17:00 - [1] Edited by: Aramendel on 04/12/2006 22:17:48 Originally by: Sun Tzuk Ok this is how it worked out... I'll use the rook as an example... ok EW got gimp 50% across the board. A rook gets 20% increased ECM per level. 1 x .5 x 2 x 1.25 = 1.25 So a player flying a rook with 5 level of recon ship + 5 ranks of signal dispersion would have the same effectiveness jamming other ships as a player with 5 ranks of signal dispersion in a regular ship with no EW bonuses did before the last patch. And thats the best EW gets now! Not very impressive imho... Yes, lets all conventiantly ignore that there is now a 20% lowslot booster for ECM. Fit 2 of those and you get a 40% boost. Add 1 ECM rig and you are with a rook at a +49% boost to ECM - 1% less than pre-kali. What? Need the lows for an 1600mm plate and an EAN2? I thought ECM ships cannot tank? Do you want to keep the cake and eat it too?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:44:00 - [2] The random feature of ECM sucks, yes, but thats no change at all to RMR. If you want nonrandom effects switch to tracking disruptors or damperners - but also get into situations where your EW system plain out does not work. Fact is: if you use good ECM lowslot mods (hypnos/t2) in the lows of the ECM ships you get only minimal effeciency reductions (> 90% of RMR effeciency).
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:58:00 - [3] O-kay. Just in case I misunderstand you: you are complaining because your scropion cannot anymore solo kill a dominix, which - is considered by many people as the best 1v1 BS in the game - has the weaponsystem which is the least effected by ECM
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:07:00 - [4] Originally by: HIdden Canary NO im saying with maxed out skills and best mods and faction jammers it cant jam a crusier ! Like loc said try reading the whole of the forum not just the last few posts before replying ! OH RLY? Originally by: HIdden Canary ...I fly both caldari and gal Bs so i know what both are like to fly i have gal only to BS 3 and 700k in drones and my domi would eat the scorp alive with out hesitating.. because the scorp sucks at whats its supposted to be good at even with max skills!! i mean pre kali ive killed domis with my scorp solo... And the cruiser occurance does not mean anything - it's ECM, sometimes you have bad luck. They only thing which matters is the jamming strength - which is virtually unchanged if you bother to use the lowslot mods.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:22:00 - [5] Originally by: HIdden Canary FFS try reading ! I do use low slots !FULL HYPNOS SIGNAL distortion amps !!! and 6 multi specs couldnt jam the cruiser ! before you go use racials i did also! Try "reading" yourself. To repeat myself: ECM IS RANDOM Meaning you will have sometimes something which is called "bad luck".
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:34:00 - [6] Originally by: HIdden Canary do you fly scorps ? or rooks ? Can you read? Can you do math?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:13:00 - [7] Originally by: HIdden Canary Guess thats a no!ROFL seriously when you fly the ship and experience it and not just what its suposted to be on paper then comment It's not a "No", it's a "It doesn't matter". Since you haven't answered my question either I guess it means you haven't finished grade school yet, right? Again, fact is that with the right setup the ECM ships retain their jamming strength. You can whine about it as much as you want to, thats a fact. Not that I have much hope in you realizing this, consideringyou were whining multiple times in this thread how a scorp cannot kill a domi, which is about as stupid as a curse pilot whining he cannot kill a raven. Well...DUH! You are suffering from a severe case of comfirmation bias... Quote: dont you think if it was just me i would of shut up along time ago but alot of people are sayign the same so dont you think theres something there ? Lets see... Jamming is much more skillbased now and also dependant on sacrificing any armortank (which shouldn't matter since multiple people claimed that ECM ships cannot tank anyways) for ecm mods. Obviously this will result in many people trying their previous I-WIN setups, failing and yelling "Ohnoes! ECM is broken!".
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:09:00 - [8] Edited by: Aramendel on 05/12/2006 15:13:01 Originally by: Jeanpierre Duvall Well what happens if a Lachesis put 1 damp on a sniper Tempest or a Curse put 1 T-disrupt on a Apoc? Isn't those ships effectivly out of the game for a good while until they have crossed the distance they need to beable to lock or fire on the other ships in the fleet? Nope. Because the SD & TD EW ships have no range bonus and also have a lower base range than ECM to begin with. They can be used to optimal effect up to 50k, with reduced effect within their falloff between 50-100k. Their effeciency at sniping distances of 150-200k is about on par with that of a blastermega. So as anti-longrange EW you can pretty much scratch TDs & SDs. So, what about shortrange? They work effeciently there, but still have compared to ECM a lot of loopholes. A lachesis can disable a BS just nicly there, but 1 damperner will still not bring it below 20k targeting distance. Works for the lachesis, but not if you have gangmates which have to go closer - if you want a real disabling effect (targeting distance of 5k or less) and in order to compensate for the common sensor booster you'll need 3 damperners on a BS target. And solo there is also the problem of targets outrunning you - a lachesis does not have the "breath" to keep a BS or cruiser with a MWD at a distance long enough to kill it. And nevermind frigates, a ÷achesis is an easy target for a small frigate gang. An ECM ship can permajam 1 frogate per jammer and escape there. TDs are even more extreme there. One TD is usually not enough to stop BS sized weapons to hit a cruisersized target unless you have a speedfit. Their effect vs medium sized ACs and blasters is also basically nil - an AC rupture will eat an arbi with 3 TDs alive. And, again, vs frigates you might as well not bother to activate them unless it's a sniper setup with rails or arties. Also, nevermind that unlike dampeners and ECM TDs have no effect at all vs: missiles, nos, warp disruptors, webs, ecm, damperners. And it is also a lot more vulnerable vs drones since they can still be send against it even if they were in the dronebay or at another target when their owner got agressed. ECM has simply no real loopholes. It has the highest base range and neither gets less effecient at closer ranges. It does not care what the target has in it's high slots. It also does not loose effeciency vs smaller targets like dampeners or TDs do, in fact it gets more effecient vs those.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:54:00 - [9] Edited by: Aramendel on 06/12/2006 11:00:17 Originally by: BaneMaker Well it's probably me not getting why two 20% mods stacked can give a 40.4% bonus....Shouldn't it be 1+(0.20)+(0.850.20) assuming 20% per mod and 85% effectiveness of the second mod. Thus yielding a total modifier of 1.37 (37%) ? Thats not how stacking of modules (and skills) in eve works - they always* multiply each other. GC13 is correct here. If you have 2 modules which gives you +50% you get 1.5 * 1.5 -> 2.25 of the original value. If you have 2 modules which give you -50% (for example shield/armor harderners) you get 0.5 * 0.5 -> 0.25 of the original value (if there would be no stacking penalities on both cases). If modules would stack like you think 2 55% harderners would give over 100% resistance (after the stacking penality). Originally by: Dire Lonestar You should talk of things you know, because you are pretty ignorant about ECM modules. First of all the low slot ones available to the market are the tech 1 non-named, 16% bonus with stack penalties. So you can dream 40% bonus. Perhaps you should take your own advice. On the market where my shopping alt is right (Heimatar/Rens) now there are 2 +20% hypnos mods available. Quite expensive of cource since they only just got added to the drops and demand is currently a lot higher than supply. But guess what: that are only shortterm problems. Do you see people complaining that HAM are underpowered since there are no t2 modules and onyl few good named for them? No - because this would be utterly moronic. They got only just released. Of cource there will be availability problems at the start - that should be glaringly obvious. But those problems are only shortterm and will solve themselves. They do not require a dev to fix them. Quote: Second, the ecm rig too is unavailable and it will be for a long long time. As said before, even without the rigs you still get over 90% of your previous effeciency. With the rigs you can get more than your old effeciency. They are an added bonus. Quote: In the meantime should we simply ignore problems to not feed the trolls? Whining for boosts because of availability problems which will be over in a month is reasonable? Quote: Third, a little tanking with a scorpion is required because it's ALWAYS named as primary target and a pilot knows that warping in and out is the only way to avoid being killed in a few seconds. That tank helps him just to have 30 seconds more to do that, not to substain serious damage. And why is it called primary? Because it is by leaps and bounds the most dangerous ship in the nenmy fleet. If ECM would be "underpowered" or "ineffective" this would not happen. And nothing stops a scorp to fit 1 or 2 1600mm plates. And have with 2/3 ECM mods 84%/94% of it's old effeciency. And have just the same tank as what other fleet BSs can fit after their guns, tracking enchancers and damagemods. Originally by: Tanya Kovacs It's pointless to "argue" with Aramendel, so please stop feeding this "ECM is teh ebil and I don't care what you are saying and which numbers you bring"-troll. You can say pretty much everything about me, but not that I ignore numbers. Actually, all you seem to do is to ignore mine.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:18:00 - [10] 90% of original = piece of crap?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:55:00 - [11] Edited by: Aramendel on 06/12/2006 19:57:03 Well, then wait a month till CCP has the rig situation balanced and throw 2 t1 ECM rigs on it. E vola, same strength as pre-kali. Good time to try out these "uber" damperner & tracking disruptor EW to get some perspective how good ecm was compared to other EW systems (and still is). Btw, it's not only ECM which got an effeciency reduction, t2 ammo also got their dps reduced by about 10%.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.09 02:17:00 - [12] Originally by: Sol Mortis Here is a challenge to all the trolls who have never flown an ewar ship. Take your favorite ship, whatever it may be, and fit only weapons onto it. No tank, no dampers, no ecm, just empty mids and lows. Now fly that ship and understand what it feels like for you offense to be your only defense. Now imagine flying this same setup, only halve your dps, and your shots only hit about 50% of the time. Feel our pain. Maybe you should try out the other ewar ships. No, ECM is not the same thing as ewar. Try an arbi and see that an ac rupture as no problems at all to kill you even with multiple TDs on it. Fly a celestis and meet a frigate gang which does not care if you dampen them. Fly a bellicose and ask yourself whatever twisted logic caused CCP to classify target painters as ewar. Try to see the whole situation instead instead of wailing in your small room why ECM was brought back to the mortal plane.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 19:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Vidar Kentoran multiple times? How does that imply ECM is effective? A Vagabond, or any other cruiser-level ship, should be jammed to hell and back permanently by a Scorpion and it should have enough ECM modules left to do the same thing to another Vagabond at the same time. If not 3. Your Vagabond only has 2 more sensor strength than a T1 cruiser. This is a pretty good example of the twisted mindset here. Guess what happens when 1 single vaga encounters a single curse or lachesis? Dead recon. Because their EW is near ineffective against it. The universal effeciency of ECM is a MAJOR advantage. One can only imagine the complaints if ECM had targets where it just does not work, just like the other EW systems...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 20:11:00 - [14] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/12/2006 20:12:47 Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan If i dedicate >=6 med slots to something and my ship has multiple bonuses for those modules they should function at least somewhat reliable , right? Not vs all targets, no. Compare ECM vs the other EW systems - far higher range and a far smaller amount of weak/ineffective targets. The other EW ships are not reliable, too. The difference to ECM is that they are "reliable unreliable". When I am in a ship with TD boni I know that I won't do squat against missiles and know that against cruiser (or smaller) sized ACs and blasters I will not see much of an effect. And it won't help me against nos, dampeners, ecm, webs, etc - but I think you get the point. I know where I can rely on my EW system and where not. Now, when I use ECM I play russian roulette to some extend in every combat. Which sucks. But the problem is: the effect of ECM is plain out too strong to make it reliable. Because then you would have en EW system which works reliable gainst everything vs 3 other systems which work reliable only against a few targets. The only way for ECM to loose it's randomness is to change it's effect to something else which isn't effective vs everything.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 22:18:00 - [15] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/12/2006 22:18:57 1.) Non-ECM EW cruisers get a damage bonus, ECM cruisers get an range bonus. This is a rather significant one - why do you think are scorps used in fleet fights? Because their EW system is the only one which can be used at these distances. Basically, the lack of (t1) dps bonus of the ECM ships is due to the caldari more range, less damage credo. 2.) And the gallente have the command ship which has the boni for EW. From the background story much points to gallente being a strong EW race, too. Also, the lack of an EW BS of the other races has been under much debate with the tier 3 BS, since it gave caldari 3 difference "specialities" which go from the frig to the BS lvl while the other races have at best 2 specs on the BS lvl. 3.) This is true. But this only applies to the ecm on caldari recon ships being better than the EW on the other races recon ships. Which it is. With this line of argumentation the BB has no justification to be better than the other t1 EW cruisers. On the recon lvl the non-caldari EW cruisers keep their (t1 cruiser) effeciency of their EW system and get from the t2 lvl a bonus to an additional EW system. ECM recons get an additional bonus to ecm, which pushes it's effeciency past that of damperners and TDs which only get the bonus from the t1 skill. ----- Also, there is a very thin line between something being better than its alternatives and being so strong that it is pointless to use anything else. For example take the old gankgeddon. From the background it fit perfectly in the amarr gank & tank credo. Gamebalance wise it made any other dps BS obsolete, though. So it got a nerf. It is still a good ship, but not really superior to other BS. Making ECM reliably effective with it's current effect would make it the "gankgeddon" of the EW systems.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.18 18:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Vidar Kentoran Twisted mindset? Um, ok. I don't see what's twisted at all about expecting an ECM battleship that has pitiful dps and no tank to be able to jam 2-3 cruisers succesfully. Reliably taking out 2-3 cruisers is (from the sensorstrength) about the same as reliably taking out 1-2 BS. The enemy "looses" 1.5 BS, the side with the scorp "looses" 0.5 BS (reduced dps output of the scorp).
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:09:00 - [17] Quote: Interesting post you have but ECM isn't the most potent. I am into "EWar" and maybe that gives me (and others too) an insight on whats the best way to kill a Caldari ECM ship using another race's skills. Also Caldari tend to have the worst Scan Resolution making them the slowest to lock. If you are into Ewar try the other EW systems. YOu are ECM specced, not Ewar specced. ECM is not the same as ewar, it is only part of it. ECM had and still has major advantages compared to them. Also, caldari have the highest sensor strength and locking range (and their ECM ships use missiles), so they have the highest native "resistance" against all kinds of EW. You cannot just look at the disadvantages. Quote: And when a HAC is able to tank and take down a BS its OK cuz its a HAC and someone is selling it for 200 mill, but its still a cruiser ... Oh never mind .. We are talking about how a BS should not be able to jam 2-3 cruisers and why .. Oh nm .. your maths just doesn't make sense. Not "a BS". Some BS. Under certain, specific situations. For example, a vaga certainly can kill a ratting BS. A raven with cruises will cause it problems though. As will most BS (and BC) pvp setups. Generic pvp setups, mind you, not some to specifically counter the vaga. ECM isn't situation specific to such an extend and has no real "natural" enemies. As for the maths, a vaga has a sensorstrength of 14. BSs between 17-24. If you can jam 3 * 14 point targets reliably you can jam 2 17-24 point targets reliably instead, too. That should be rather obvious. Also, something being a BS does not give it any reason to be "uber". BS are not supposed to be solopownmobiles. A frig can take down one under the right conditions.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.28 23:46:00 - [18] Edited by: Aramendel on 28/12/2006 23:47:17 Maybe you missed that he had 2* ECCM fitted. It was an anti-setup. If a blastermega encounters 3 sniper-rohks at point blank range those rohks will die, too. That does hardly make sniper BSs obsolete/weak. It just means that there are ways to counter them.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.31 22:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Mr Vrix How about if... They made, Nos a random cyle affair? SD`s a randon cycle affair? Warp scrambling a random cycle affair? Webbing a random cycle affair? TD a random cycle affair? Target painters a random cycle affair? None of these instantly under any circumstances disable all modules of your ship which need a target to work. Damperners are closest to the effect of ECM there, but their effect can be overcome simply by flying close. And they also have about 1/4th of the optimal range ECM can get. Give ECM a weaker effect and it can be non-random.

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