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Retribution / T2 nerfs :'(

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Zen Takore Gallente Adult Entertainment Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.04 14:16:00 - [1] I had a pretty good Retribution setup that could run 4 lasers, an ab and an armour rep constantly. Now my cap runs dry. This thread is mainly to moan, and quibble, and shout at ccp for changing it. Anyone else fly a similar setup or know what nerfs cause my once uber setup to fall to the wayside? Did I mention the moaning and quibbling? Moan quibble. ----- Boyakasha!
Zen Takore Gallente Adult Entertainment Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.04 16:58:00 - [2] Wow no-one else notice this too :-/ ----- Boyakasha!
StarLite Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.04 17:03:00 - [3] Is it exactly the same ship, or just a similar setup? Are you using T2 lasers and crystals, if so; what crystals? _______________________________________________________________________ This sig is guarded by SigGuard(c)
Zen Takore Gallente Adult Entertainment Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:13:00 - [4] Exactly the same setup as before: 4 x Medium Pulse Laser II (Scorch S) 1MN Afterburner II Small Armour Rep II Energized Thermic Membrane II Heat Sink II 2 x Capacitor Power Relay II I don't think I was nossed. I'm about to give it a try against an alt, see what happens. ----- Boyakasha!
Zen Takore Gallente Adult Entertainment Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:36:00 - [5] Cap runs dry before long on a test run. This is really annoying as I love this ship and I really enjoyed the setup I had. Its pretty limited with the slots so there's not much room for improvement. I'll have to find some named CPRs, maybe that will fix it. If I turn off the afterburner its okay, but that's not ideal. ----- Boyakasha!
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:48:00 - [6] cap use of t2 crystals was not changed afaik. cap size was increased and recharge time changed so peak recharge should be the same. since recharge time is longer...a percentage reduction of it should be more powerful then before... tbh I'm baffled that you are having problems. Are you sure its not a perceived problem? If you could run RMR and Kali side by side, are you sure there would be a difference? Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Zen Takore Gallente Adult Entertainment Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.04 18:52:00 - [7] Edited by: Zen Takore on 04/12/2006 18:57:37 Edited by: Zen Takore on 04/12/2006 18:53:00 Yes I'm certain. I did some extensive testing of this setup pre-kali, and it worked great. I never ran out of cap and I ran several complexes and a few missions. It just worked. On the first complex and subsequent testing post-kali it runs dry. I don't know what to say, it worked fine before, never, ever ran dry. Now it does. This, for me, is the worst change ever. Can any devs confirm this plz? The patch notes don't show any changes that should affect this setup, yet it clearly has had some nerfs. ----- Boyakasha!
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:03:00 - [8] with the nerf of t2 crystal damage and range...switch to multifreq, youll have more range (less ab required) and only slightly less damage, and more tracking...meaning less shots to kill stuff overall...meaning less cap use. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:07:00 - [9] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 04/12/2006 19:11:06 OTOH, I read a few posts from people who were testing on Sisi prior to Rev 1 release... they discussed VERY STRANGE cap behavior... erratic behavior, to say the least. If there are any cap "bugs", I suppose that would explain a LOT of issues people have been having since Rev 1 release. It wouldn't surprise me at all, given the lack of adequate test phase. EDIT: Unfortunately, it would be very very difficult to determine if cap is bugged, or if some change is causing what you are seeing. The person I mentioned above described the following phenomenon: fitted a ship (was some inty) with a MWD, which on RMR could run indefinitely. During the testing, NO other modules were activated. He would drain is capacitor to a certain point, and then turn on the MWD. The capacitor would CHARGE UP to a certain point (85% is sticking in my mind), after which the cap would plummet and run out. This kind of behavior is highly abnormal - since if the cap is slowly RISING while running mods, it usually reaches an equilibrium, and given the curve that dicates cap regen rates, there is nothing that should cause it to plummet once it reaches that equilibrium. It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it? This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
Zen Takore Gallente Adult Entertainment Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:33:00 - [10] Thanks for your thoughts guys -- I'll give multifreq a go, sounds promising. I managed to track the problem down to the cap changes, 25% more cap, but 25% longer to recharge. Putting this into the mix means my cap no longer recharges quick enough, despite having extra cap. I will try swapping out the CPRs for 2 named ones, these will provide an 8% bonus, but I fear it won't be enough. ----- Boyakasha!
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Zen Takore I managed to track the problem down to the cap changes, 25% more cap, but 25% longer to recharge. Putting this into the mix means my cap no longer recharges quick enough, despite having extra cap. Shouldn't the peak recharge rate be at the same % of cap? And shouldn't the peak recharge rate remain unchanged? I guess some better math needs to be done by CCP if that isn't the case - because that was certainly Tux's assumption. I will try to find the post with the formulas and play with graphs later, or something. It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it? This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
Serihon	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:52:00 - [12] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Originally by: Zen Takore I managed to track the problem down to the cap changes, 25% more cap, but 25% longer to recharge. Putting this into the mix means my cap no longer recharges quick enough, despite having extra cap. Shouldn't the peak recharge rate be at the same % of cap? And shouldn't the peak recharge rate remain unchanged? I guess some better math needs to be done by CCP if that isn't the case - because that was certainly Tux's assumption. I will try to find the post with the formulas and play with graphs later, or something. I am not sure of the changes but it sounds like are saying the cap overall was increased and the recharge time was increased as well. Technically if they had increased overall cap and left the recharge time the way it was before you would be recharging cap faster. If they increased overall cap and overall recharge time the same amount you should be recharging around the same as lower cap lower recharge. These figures are made up and for example only! 300 cap recharge 100s = 3cap/sec - Original 500 cap recharge 100s = 5cap/sec - Figure 1 500 cap recharge 166.6s = 3.001cap/sec - Figure 2 500 cap recharge 200s = 2.5cap/sec - Figure 3 So your setup should really only differ if they changed overall cap and recharge to like figure #3 which wasnt equivalent to the ratio of the original cap/s. They may have changed it unequivalently on purpose so you may be stuck and it may be intentional. Then again it may be a glitch like others have been stating. I don't know the ships actual pre-kali overall cap/recharge rate and the new ones so cannot take a look at them. And yes peak recharge rate should be at same % as it was before Kali unless they changed it as it is same for all ships.
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.04 19:58:00 - [13] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 04/12/2006 19:58:04 Assuming the cap formula has't changed, I should be able to make some new ship files for Quickfit, and test out cap recharge rates like that. I'll do it tonight. If cap recharge RATE has changed, this is very bad, and would explain why so many people are having so many problems against NOS and high cap use weapons (lasers and blasters, namely). EDIT: If someone else has the time and is interested, go ahead and pursue this. I'm not off work for another 5 or 6 hours. It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it? This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
Zen Takore Gallente Adult Entertainment Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:06:00 - [14] I'm trying to track a dev for a more concrete answer, if I get anything I'll post. Some confirmation of the maths would be great. I was also under the impression the changes were linear, so although we had extra cap, and it recharged longer, the cap/second would be consistent. ----- Boyakasha!
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:10:00 - [15] I thought it would be that way too. However, since cap recharge itself isn't linear, I suppose it is very possible that it changed something unintentionally. It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it? This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
Zen Takore Gallente Adult Entertainment Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:37:00 - [16] That's very true. Well, I put two 11m cap mods on for now and that enables me to run everything as I was before. Cap falls to 31%, though with 25% extra cap I expect I have about the same in reserve as I did before. Not an ideal solution as its doubled the price of this setup. I hope the devs realise the issue and resolve. ----- Boyakasha!
Yoshimako	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:48:00 - [17] What are your cap skills at? My retri runs the same seyup as yours with MF crystals (only an N-type hardner tho) and I drop about 1 cap a second at peak recharge with everything running. Im pretty damn sure it was the same before the patch aswell. So with only a small ammount of micro management I can effectively make it run for ever. btw my cap skills are only lvl 4 and controlled bursts is lvl 3 or 4 aswell but I have rapid firing 5
Soraya Kha'marr Amarr Gun Metal Priests The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.12.04 20:53:00 - [18] you are not the first person to find this. i used to only run into cap troubles with my prophecy setup after about 20 minutes running everything - it would very slowly decrease. Now its far less. ive also read posts about people encountering the same... odd. This space is mine, mine alone!!!oneoneeleven! (You can rent it for cookies though.)
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:11:00 - [19] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 04/12/2006 21:12:25 If multiple people are seeing this, this issue needs dev attention ASAP, since peak recharge rates were supposed to remain the same. OP: Can you adjust your title to reflect that there may be a cap bug, and that dev attention would be appreciated? Filing a bug report would be difficult, since you can't really "reproduce" it, and all "evidence" is heresay. Perhaps if someone "in the know" about the formulas could do any sort of math, that would help too. I'd get on it, but I'm at work... another 4-5 hours left. It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it? This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
ThaMa Gebir Gallente Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:20:00 - [20] I am interested to see the results of this test. Please keep us updated and I will look at other ships testing and post my findings. (Just one word of warning though I cannot do the maths but I can do raw testing). There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus pwnt - Immy
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:23:00 - [21] I can't find the post that was made where a guy had figured out an approximation of the cap recharge equation. I've searched on Google briefly. I was going to see if I could take a break and quickly hack through some math on it. If anyone can find this, I will do it. It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it? This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
Soraya Kha'marr Amarr Gun Metal Priests The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.12.04 21:25:00 - [22] talk about stealth-nerfs and yes, some clearing up would be useful. This space is mine, mine alone!!!oneoneeleven! (You can rent it for cookies though.)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.12.04 22:56:00 - [23] Edited by: Akita T on 04/12/2006 23:19:30 Pre-Rev' Retribution base: 350 cap in 150 sec (2.33333333/sec, 5.833333 peak) Post-Rev Retribution base: 437 cap in 187.5 sec (almost same, 2.330666/sec, 5.82666 peak) CPR Is didn't change at all, same -20% recharge time (+25% recharge rate). That would be 9.109 maxcaprech before, 9.104 maxcaprech after Rev. MPLII cap use 4.44/shot every 3.5 sec (base, no skills), 42.22=8.88 from amarr frig 5 on "full salvo". Crystal no reduction nor bonus to cap use (at least not listed). Assuming Gunnery 5, Rapid firing 4, Controlled Bursts 4: Cap use : 8.880.8=7.104 cap/salvo Salvo fire rate: 3.5 base * 0.9 gunnery * 0.84 rapidfire * 0.895 heatsink = 2.36817 sec RoF Cap/sec laser use: slightly under 3/sec. Small armor repper II uses 40 cap / 5.1 sec with MINIMAL requirements (repair sys L3), so 7.84 cap/sec, more if you have L4 or L5 repair systems. Assuming L4 energy sysop and L3 energy management, that's 9.1 * 1.15 / 0.8 = 13.08 cap/second max recharge. And you should be using only around 11/second max. So, I guess you could say recharge rate got screwy. However, I didn't notice anything and I run a 3x SPR I Ferox with 3 active hardners, so I would have noticed it already myself. Must be a Rertibution-only problem, or some other bug (cap use of armor repairer maybe ? refire rate or cap usage for the guns ?). _____ -sig- This is my only char. These are my skills Always question everything, including yourself
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 04/12/2006 21:12:25 If multiple people are seeing this, this issue needs dev attention ASAP, since peak recharge rates were supposed to remain the same. OP: Can you adjust your title to reflect that there may be a cap bug, and that dev attention would be appreciated? Filing a bug report would be difficult, since you can't really "reproduce" it, and all "evidence" is heresay. Perhaps if someone "in the know" about the formulas could do any sort of math, that would help too. I'd get on it, but I'm at work... another 4-5 hours left. This would also explain the "OMG BLASTERS SUCK" meme that seems to be going out, when the intended changes would actualy give them a boost.
Xori Ruscuv Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.04 23:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Goumindong This would also explain the "OMG BLASTERS SUCK" meme that seems to be going out, when the intended changes would actualy give them a boost. Oh, so you're still insane, I see? backs away slowly Now then - I already created a new thread to discuss precisely the cap issue. I have the maths organized and ready to work on, but I shouldn't be doing it at work, so I'll do it in a couple of hours. So - OP, no need to modify your thread. Math inc in a couple hours on the other thread. It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it? This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap...
Saria Mysdrial Amarr Research Associates Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2006.12.05 19:39:00 - [26] I have this problem with my Retribution and Geddon as well. Perma-tanks aren't anymore. And not just when firing guns. Yes, the math works out, it should be the same regen, but for some reason it isn't. This needs to be figured out, I'd say, as it's not like the laser-using ships weren't already cap-hungry. Sad, but true.
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.05 20:32:00 - [27] my new harbinger has no cap problems running 7x heavy pulse with multifreq, a mwd, a medium armor rep, with just 2x cap recharger 1s (0.0 belt ratting) this may be a bug specific to certain ships tho. My missle malediction works much better now, can run the mwd, 20km scram, and single beam laser with aurora much longer then before due to larger cap. my curse works better, but doesnt use laser....would make it either specific ships and/or lasers in general and/or lasers on specific ships. ill play around with my dual light beam crusader and see how she feels. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Okamoto	Posted - 2006.12.05 21:56:00 - [28] Originally by: Saria Mysdrial I have this problem with my Retribution and Geddon as well. Perma-tanks aren't anymore. And not just when firing guns. Yes, the math works out, it should be the same regen, but for some reason it isn't. This needs to be figured out, I'd say, as it's not like the laser-using ships weren't already cap-hungry. Is it really so simple that longer time equals the same peak recharge? Since many functions in eve seems to be of sin*cos-nature (or similar) simply streching the graph (increasing cap and recharge) would create a lower derivate, no? And it's the derivate (the cap/s this second) that keeps the cap floating. What seems to happen is that the peak cap recharge in fact is lower, thus it collapses. /Y
Olivin Gallente Aquarium	Posted - 2006.12.05 23:07:00 - [29] Originally by: Zen Takore I had a pretty good Retribution setup that could run 4 lasers, an ab and an armour rep constantly. Now my cap runs dry. This thread is mainly to moan, and quibble, and shout at ccp for changing it. Anyone else fly a similar setup or know what nerfs cause my once uber setup to fall to the wayside? I have the following setup before Kali: 4x Medium Pulse Laser II 1x Small Nos (named) 1x Afterburner ( named) 1x Armor Repear (named) 1x Heat Sink 1x Adaptive nano 2x Capacitor relay Everything can be run indefinitely before Kali. After Kali patch it's look even better, and I may drop one cap relay. Olivin. ---------------------------- We¦re not lost. We¦re locationally challenged.
Zen Takore Gallente Adult Entertainment Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.05 23:29:00 - [30] Edited by: Zen Takore on 05/12/2006 23:32:53 Originally by: Olivin Everything can be run indefinitely before Kali. After Kali patch it's look even better, and I may drop one cap relay. Its interesting the changes help some and hurt others. Unfortunately for me I've been nerfed. I think setups with an abundance of cap do a little better then before. And those like mine, close to the line, now fall a little below it. /me prods ccp ----- Boyakasha!

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