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Avera Mikou
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Posted - 2006.12.04 20:37:00 -
[1]
I hear that blasters are much more powerful than autocannons. But when I do the math, it does not appear that way to me. Please help explain what I may be overlooking.
For this comparison I assume resistances of:
SHIELDS ARMOR
0% EM 70%
60% EXP 10%
40% KIN 25%
20% THERM 35%
I also assume both are using medium weapons of approximately the same price range and cpu/power drain, with standard ammo. They both have same sig resolution and tracking speed.
For the autocannon it will be:
425mm AC 1: 0.513x dps
For the blaster it will be:
Heavy Ion Blaster 1: 0.625x dps
AC vs. shields: will use EMP M
(10EM + 8EX*.4 + 4KIN*.6 + 15.6)*.513 = 16 dps
AC vs. armor: will use Fusion M
(16EXP*.9 + 4KIN*.75 + 17.4)*.513 = 17.85 dps
For the blaster I will use Plutoniam M for both shields and armor as it seems to be best:
Blaster vs. Shields:
(12KIN*.6 + 10THE*.8 + 15.2)*.625 = 19 dps
Blaster vs. Armor:
(12KIN*.75 + 10THE*.65 + 15.5)*.625 = 19.38 dps
I assume that these numbers scale roughly equally across weapons with price and size etc for both classes. This doesn't seem to be much of a difference to me. 18% maximum...but the blasters have a range of 2500m+4000m falloff, compared to the ACs which are better with 2000m+8000m falloff, granted there are penalties for ammo usage..but the blaster is also draining energy that could be used for shields, and is susceptible to being drained which will effectively reduce its shields and dmg...
Do you feel these numbers are representative, or did I totally skrew up this calculation?
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Phoenix Jones
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Posted - 2006.12.04 20:40:00 -
[2]
Well if you run the numbers against all weaponry, you should find out that they all just about equal each other, just varieties in their strengths and weaknesses.
But is a baster stronger than a lazer/ac once everything is balanced out and weighed together totally? no. They "should" be just about equal.
---------------The Low Sec Issue-------------
Gatecamps that kill all who pass with no remorse and in many cases, no possible way of retaliation, is not PVP. |
Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.12.04 20:53:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 04/12/2006 20:53:58
You've gone a bit wrong.
 Quote:
(10EM + 8EX*.4 + 4KIN*.6 + 15.6)*.513 = 16 dps
I think (from memory) the bold figure is the "shield damage" stat, which is the average damage the ammo does on unresisted shields and not an actual damage like EM/EX/KIN.
-------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent"
EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.04 21:11:00 -
[4]
imho the blaster vs AC thingy is kind of extreme damage at short range vs damage versatility at a longer range.
AC's have a longer range if you use falloff, but that means you will do sucky damage.
blasters have shorter range, but they do some heavy pounding.
..or at least it's supposed to be like that.
-------
Originally by: Tiuwaz
for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons 
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DubanFP
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.04 21:18:00 -
[5]
Don't forget the ever lovely EMP M/Phased Plasma M mix so they do roughly equal amounts of all 4 damage types. Very devestating combination. Throw in the excellent falloff and double damage bonus "making for 66% more damage at ship lvl V" and you get a quite fearsome weapon. Which is balanced by Gallente's drone capabilities. In the end it's your preference that wins. Even Minmatar ships that wouldnt' get damage bonus on other races "Stabber for example" are boosted.
__________________________
Why babelfish is bad mmm k
"which the night do not expect that it calls the primary education before becoming deformed inside" |
Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.12.04 21:33:00 -
[6]
1) No one is going to stop after shields are down to switch from EMP to Fusion.
2) Its generally pointless to use anything but Anitmatter, Null or Void in blasters.
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BlackMoon Thrawn
the Organ Grinder and Company
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Posted - 2006.12.04 22:24:00 -
[7]
As someone before said, use the same ammo all the way through and do your calcs. Basicaly with autocannons you cannot go toe to toe with anyone in optimal so you fight in falloff. Therefore, since falloff is the same you use the highest damage ammo you can and ignore any range penalty.
Mostly I carry Barrage and Phased Plasma. EMP isn't bad but with the omni armor tanks its generally not worth it. Hail could have its uses now , I havn't tried it since the patch.
Post patch I am useing alot less ammo. So there may be some reason to move up a size in autos. All in all I think they are fairly balanced now with blasters having cap issues and autocannons having dps isues(when fighting in falloff).
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Avera Mikou
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Posted - 2006.12.04 23:35:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Avera Mikou on 04/12/2006 23:40:00
So, changes:
- blaster is using only void M
- AC is using equal mix of Phased Plasma and EMP
Summation:
2400m and closer: blaster does 50% more dmg than AC
3700m: equal damage
5000m: AC does 177% more damage
This really shows how important small range changes can be. Since it can be assumed that both ships are capable of covering the ground from 2400 to 5000 in less than 2 seconds, and they both are trying to stay orbitting at their opt range, I think agility would be actually what keeps you at proper range, because thats whats going to keep momentum to a minimum and allow you to compensate for your oppps momentum.
Range: 2400m and closer
Opt range is then 1800 so we are 600/4000 falloff, .15 which is only 3% penalty
19*.625*.97 = 11.52 dps
With the AC avg range penalty is 44.8. So thats 1296 into falloff, 1296/8000 = 0.162
which is also just about a 3% penalty.
15.4*.513*.97 = 7.66 dps
So at this range, the blasters do 50% more dps (and it will be almost exactly the same in closer)
Middle range: 3700m
Blaster: 50% pen approx 5.94 dps
AC: 24% pen, approx 6.004 dps
Approx equal dmg
Now lets say they are farther apart...5000m
Blaster: 88% penalty with Void M
19*.625*.12 = 1.425 dps
AC: 1000+4000 = approx 50% penalty
15.4*.513*.5 = 3.95 dps
At this range AC does 177% more dmg
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MECTO
Xenobytes
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.12.04 23:42:00 -
[9]
i like ACs much more in kali then blasters - they are really nasty! so much range  and no cap means in noskali u gonna love that 
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford
In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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DubanFP
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.05 00:07:00 -
[10]
Stabber + speedtank of doom "to keep range" + Falloff skills IV "20% bonus" + 15km "outside web range" = doom hehehe :-). Not that damaging, but most ships are pretty much helpless. Eventually thier cap fails and ship explodes. I love it.
__________________________
Why babelfish is bad mmm k
"which the night do not expect that it calls the primary education before becoming deformed inside" |
Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.05 00:11:00 -
[11]
I'm gonna have to say that,
as maintaining cap has become one of the key issues in kali
ACs have a distinct advantage over blasters.
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
Dreez
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.05 00:33:00 -
[12]
ACs > Blasters.. Thanks to Tux  .
And if you EVER want to really start comparing ACs Vs Blasters,
please do so while also taking DPS Vs Cap into the Calc since
were in Kali now and Cap = Life.
Blasters should be boosted alot more dmg-wise concidering
that all ships got HPboost and Mega/Hype aint capstrong due to
MWD-penaly.
Bob farted, ASCN burped & then there was a nodecrash.
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Avera Mikou
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Posted - 2006.12.05 01:17:00 -
[13]
Quote:
And if you EVER want to really start comparing ACs Vs Blasters,
please do so while also taking DPS Vs Cap into the Calc since
were in Kali now and Cap = Life.
Well to be honest I was actually thinking of something a bit different...like, a cyclone using nos and blasters. The nos would reduce the opps tanking and damage capabilities while sustaining the use of blasters...and its already going to have a speed advantage for getting in close.
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Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tough Guys Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.05 02:19:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dreez
Blasters should be boosted alot more dmg-wise concidering
that all ships got HPboost and Mega/Hype aint capstrong due to
MWD-penaly.
Can't really comment on how the changes to hp rigs and overall tanking has effected small scale pvp as I'm pretty green when it comes to actual combat in kali. However making blasters a bit more unique by increasing cap use by a decent amount and upping their damage a little could be intresting although I truly think that the overall problem is nos and not blasters themselves. Just my 2 cents.
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.12.05 03:29:00 -
[15]
Haha, boost blaster damage. Megas still pwn, all blaster ships still pwn, autocannons still do crap damage, and BS ACs still need faction scrams.
Larger tiers need a boost too, at least a falloff increase, just like neutrons and ions get over electrons. A tracking boost would be nice too, seeing as our ships are faster. 
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It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
Rezeik Aurelius
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Posted - 2006.12.05 05:16:00 -
[16]
Agree with Tasty for the most part. I don't think a lot of people realize how fighting in falloff affects your DPS, and it's not fair to compare pure DPS in those cases.
A lot of times, Minnie ships are fighting in deep falloff to stay out of web and/or blaster optimal range. On top of that, factor in a speed tank and your damage suffers even more as tracking comes into effect (although it's probably affecting your target just as much).
ACs and Blasters have their strengths and weaknesses. Nos is a concern after the patch and it clearly hurts blasters. I wouldn't mind seeing blasters get a little more damage if ACs got something that added to their versatility, like tracking (tbh arties need a lot more attention than either). Might as well throw a bone to laser users as well. The only weapon system that doesn't really need any help is missiles.
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Dreez
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.05 06:28:00 -
[17]
Just to be clear. ACs were never ment to do more or the same dmg
as blasters, so aslong as that¦s being followed, im pleased.
Bob farted, ASCN burped & then there was a nodecrash.
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Lord Infy
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.12.05 06:30:00 -
[18]
TO correct this matter I decree following changes to take place in today's patch:
* Cap use from hybrid turrets will be competely eliminated
* Hybrid turret damage will be increased by 20%
* Projectile turret damage will be increased by 10%
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Thornspawn Chalice
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Posted - 2006.12.05 06:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Haha, boost blaster damage. Megas still pwn, all blaster ships still pwn, autocannons still do crap damage, and BS ACs still need faction scrams.
Larger tiers need a boost too, at least a falloff increase, just like neutrons and ions get over electrons. A tracking boost would be nice too, seeing as our ships are faster.
raven need another mid too!
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Audri Fisher
Caldari
The Keep
THE R0CK
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Posted - 2006.12.05 07:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lord Infy
TO correct this matter I decree following changes to take place in today's patch:
* Cap use from hybrid turrets will be competely eliminated
* Hybrid turret damage will be increased by 20%
* Projectile turret damage will be increased by 10%
You realize that all that does is make the rokh > every other BS in mid range engagments right?
Hybrids using cap is a good thing, it keeps Caldari gunships semi honest.
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Arktaos
Minmatar
The Bratwurst Burglars
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Posted - 2006.12.05 07:34:00 -
[21]
I deem this thread faulty.
You cannot compare 425mm AC's to Ion blasters.
Do the math with same tier guns, using T2 ammo (Hail & void).
You will find blasters to have a vast damage advantage, in exchange for their added cap use/lower range.
The range can be fixed by just stuffing Null in your blasters tho, so really they only got cap use to offset their extra damage over AC's.
Also, the math should be done with a dual dmg bonus (dmg & rof) on the AC's and a single dmg bonus on the blasters.
So back to the drawing board you go.
---------------------------------
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Arktaos
I deem this thread faulty.
You cannot compare 425mm AC's to Ion blasters.
Do the math with same tier guns, using T2 ammo (Hail & void).
You will find blasters to have a vast damage advantage, in exchange for their added cap use/lower range.
The range can be fixed by just stuffing Null in your blasters tho, so really they only got cap use to offset their extra damage over AC's.
Also, the math should be done with a dual dmg bonus (dmg & rof) on the AC's and a single dmg bonus on the blasters.
So back to the drawing board you go.
At your request...
T2 Heavy Neutron Blaster with 25% damage bonus vs T2 425mm AC with 25% RoF and damage bonuses:
- 425mm has 2.6% better DoT (T2 ammo)
- 425mm has 5.6% better tracking
Effective range is considered to be optimal + 1/2 falloff - barrage is still +50% falloff and null +25% optimal and falloff, right? If so, then
- 425mm has 10% better effective range
- blaster uses 1.72 cap/sec for firing (with max skills, no damage mods), 425mm uses 0
Fitting (with maxed skills):
425mm II requires 138.6 grid, 18.75 CPU
Blaster II requires 212.4 grid (+53%), 30.75 CPU (+64%)
--
NMTZ forum |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Arktaos
I deem this thread faulty.
...
At your request...
T2 Heavy Neutron Blaster with 25% damage bonus vs T2 425mm AC with 25% RoF and damage bonuses:
- 425mm has 2.6% better DoT (T2 ammo)
- 425mm has 5.6% better tracking
Effective range is considered to be optimal + 1/2 falloff - barrage is still +50% falloff and null +25% optimal and falloff, right? If so, then
- 425mm has 10% better effective range
- blaster uses 1.72 cap/sec for firing (with max skills, no damage mods), 425mm uses 0
Fitting (with maxed skills):
425mm II requires 138.6 grid, 18.75 CPU
Blaster II requires 212.4 grid (+53%), 30.75 CPU (+64%)
There is only 2 T1 minmatar ships that use cruiser sized guns that have both a RoF bonus and a damage bonus, all the others have just a RoF bonus. Those 2 that have both bonuses are the Hurricane and Rupture. Both the Rupture and the Hurricane have, compared to the gallente equivalent, 1 less turret.
So in the end blaster ships will still outdamage both(Rupture by Thorax by about 20%, hurricane by Brutix by about 13%). And this trend is in the entire range of minmatar and gallente ships.
Gallente blaster ships will outdamage minmatar autocannon ships if the minmatar ships don't stay outside of the blaster's range and outside of blaster range autocannons are deep in falloff and will not be doing their full damage that already is lower then blaster damage.
Crystal-Slave, that way?
Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
wierchas noobhunter
Caldari
Kemono.
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:55:00 -
[24]
w/e
i am WIERCHAS i am like UBER and stuff |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:00:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/12/2006 11:00:46
Rupture dps with barrage at 2k = 190 dps.
Rupture dps with barrage at 9k = 167 dps.
Rupture dps with barrage at 13k = 140 dps.
Thorax dps with null at 2k = 226 dps.
Thorax dps with null at 9k = 156 dps.
Thorax dps with null at 13k = 70 dps.
Medium blasters have good damage within web range, but poor damage outside it. However, they also have their damage enhanced drones as well. Its hard to just compare guns to other guns, since the ships they are used on are very important as well.
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:24:00 -
[26]
Well the blasters vs autocannons imbalance doesn't really start until you reach BS level.
- - - - - -
Originally by: Ath Amon
as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Arktaos
I deem this thread faulty.
...
At your request...
T2 Heavy Neutron Blaster with 25% damage bonus vs T2 425mm AC with 25% RoF and damage bonuses:
- 425mm has 2.6% better DoT (T2 ammo)
- 425mm has 5.6% better tracking
Effective range is considered to be optimal + 1/2 falloff - barrage is still +50% falloff and null +25% optimal and falloff, right? If so, then
- 425mm has 10% better effective range
- blaster uses 1.72 cap/sec for firing (with max skills, no damage mods), 425mm uses 0
Fitting (with maxed skills):
425mm II requires 138.6 grid, 18.75 CPU
Blaster II requires 212.4 grid (+53%), 30.75 CPU (+64%)
There is only 2 T1 minmatar ships that use cruiser sized guns that have both a RoF bonus and a damage bonus, all the others have just a RoF bonus. Those 2 that have both bonuses are the Hurricane and Rupture. Both the Rupture and the Hurricane have, compared to the gallente equivalent, 1 less turret.
So in the end blaster ships will still outdamage both(Rupture by Thorax by about 20%, hurricane by Brutix by about 13%). And this trend is in the entire range of minmatar and gallente ships.
Gallente blaster ships will outdamage minmatar autocannon ships if the minmatar ships don't stay outside of the blaster's range and outside of blaster range autocannons are deep in falloff and will not be doing their full damage that already is lower then blaster damage.
Of course, Rupture has two missile slots free. With maxed skills and T2 heavy launchers with T1 missiles, that's 41.6 DoT. One T2 neutron blaster with no damage mods and null ammo is about 20 DoT - add damage mods as needed. (I think Null M base damage is 20 now? Dam multiplier/RoF is a hair under 1, anyway)
Same thing with Hurricane.
In addition:
Thorax with maxed fitting skills and 5 neutron IIs has -37 grid and 221.25 CPU remaining, Rupture with 4 425 IIs and 2 T2 heavy launchers has 331.6 grid and 248.75 CPU remaining.
Brutix with maxed fitting skills and 7 neutron IIs has -49.3 grid and 316 CPU remaining, Hurricane with 6 425 IIs and 2 T2 heavy launchers has... erm. A whole lot more, anyway, don't have the current values with me. If the base is 1300/400, then 694.4 grid and 305 CPU remains.
Gallente ships have 20m3 larger drone bay in both cases. Perhaps that is enough the balance the ships.
--
NMTZ forum |
Arshes Nei
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
There is only 2 T1 minmatar ships that use cruiser sized guns that have both a RoF bonus and a damage bonus, all the others have just a RoF bonus. Those 2 that have both bonuses are the Hurricane and Rupture. Both the Rupture and the Hurricane have, compared to the gallente equivalent, 1 less turret.
So in the end blaster ships will still outdamage both(Rupture by Thorax by about 20%, hurricane by Brutix by about 13%). And this trend is in the entire range of minmatar and gallente ships.
Gallente blaster ships will outdamage minmatar autocannon ships if the minmatar ships don't stay outside of the blaster's range and outside of blaster range autocannons are deep in falloff and will not be doing their full damage that already is lower then blaster damage.
Correct both hurricane and rupture have 1 less turret, but they also have 2 more utility slots. Also while this comparsion between 425mm and neutrons is pretty interesting you usually dont use your largest guns as amarr or gallente  .
Also if i am not mistaken ACs loose less dps when using smaller guns then blasters.
Dark-Rising |
Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:53:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Dixon on 05/12/2006 11:53:20
Originally by: Arshes Nei
Also if i am not mistaken ACs loose less dps when using smaller guns then blasters.
Actually it's almost identical. Lasers are the only weapon that drops severely in DPS between tiers.
- - - - - -
Originally by: Ath Amon
as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.12.05 12:00:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dixon
Edited by: Dixon on 05/12/2006 11:53:20
Originally by: Arshes Nei
Also if i am not mistaken ACs loose less dps when using smaller guns then blasters.
Actually it's almost identical. Lasers are the only weapon that drops severely in DPS between tiers.
Correct. It's the range where small ACs shine the most - in 425 II => dual 180 II switch, effective barrage range drops by 9.5%. In neutron => electron switch, effective null range drops by 36%.
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