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The Truth about whats going on with Salvage

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Vechloran	Posted - 2006.12.05 09:37:00 - [1] Alright, me and a few other intrepid slavagers have been working over the current salvage situation and when we finally put together a Excel spreadsheet for all the T1 rigs and what was required for them something became blantantly clear. Drop rates on salvage by fraction are incorrect in that rarity of a drop is reversed. There are 4 components right now that atleast 1 of which is used in every single rig. These four components (all the ones with a green circuit icon) are problematic though. For starters they are the rarest drops (averaging 1-2 of each for a full lvl4 mission salvage or a good 70+ 0.3 rats), They are also the component most rigs need alot of (usually atleast one of the parts that 80-100 are needed per rig). To put it into contrast, if you wanted to build 1 of each T1 rig, you would need almost 15000 of these four components, but you would need only 10000 or so of the other 12 which are all much more plentiful. I think what CCP wanted in the drop rate was for these four components to be common things that we get alot of since we will be using alot of them. What should be rare are the faction specific salvages, things you can only get from certain groups. I think this makes much more sense and would allow those seeking certain rigs to travel to a place where the faction they want to get components from is located. Currently it doesn't matter who you farm since the things you truely need will drop from anywhere but in just insanely rare ammounts. I know CCP has said they are "monitoring the current drop rate of components" but they have said nothing more then that. Maybe they think that with tuesday's patch that more people salvaging will mean more parts on the market, but I think most people won't bother once they see how hard it is to get components that matter with the current drop setup, not to mention how much longer it takes to salvage then to just loot and go. My suggestions for CCP about the salvage mini-profession: Make a unique ship, give it 5 high slots and a new tractor field that is a area effect of 20k that will pull everything closer. Mission runners are not interested in building conveniant little bundles of wrecks, scattering things 100's of kilometers apart. Ship doesn't have to be survivable, I personally wouldn't use it in low sec, I have a fast frigate for that. Make the material requirements more diverse, instead of them taking 3 components in a 100/100/50 setup I would rather see 5/6 components in a 50/50/40/30/30 setup. This is possible since right now many of the components that drop which only go into 8 or less rigs. Let wrecks stick around for 5-6 hours, this would make it possible for mission runners to hand off bookmarks (even possibly sell them) to a person/corp that specializes in salvage (full skill and some salvage rigs on a ship) and not have them racing against the clock to get them all, just to have a few of the bm's empty. Make a probe that finds clusters of wrecks, freelancers might be able to beat a corp to a mission salvage, or corps can run patrols through area's to collect what was left behind. I really love eve, and I really want to get into the salvage stuff and make rigs available to everyone, not just the people that could afford the 500 mil isk price that they would cost if the current system continues. P.S. a T2 salvager mod for those of us that train Salvage to 5 would be awesome, maybe give it the ability to better get t2 components from players ships.
Sir Emi Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.05 09:49:00 - [2] This is correct, the salvage tables are reversed, the basic chip and fried components are 10 x more rare tehn the others, doesn't make any sence, and I'm game dev myself lol I'm 99% sure someone made a mistake somewhere, when setting those tables Space Odyssey Maker...

Oveur	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:50:00 - [3] We'll have more salvaging improvements ready for the patch next Tuesday, including more balancing of the drops. Senior Producer EVE Online

Kiyano	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:54:00 - [4] Edited by: Kiyano on 05/12/2006 10:55:28 Originally by: Oveur We'll have more salvaging improvements ready for the patch next Tuesday, including more balancing of the drops. o.0 \o/ Am looking forward to it not taking an eternity to make a single rig
D'onryu Shoqui Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.05 10:58:00 - [5] Quote: Mission runners are not interested in building conveniant little bundles of wrecks, scattering things 100's of kilometers apart. just remove wrecks from missions entirely , make it a low sec/0.0 only thing , encourage people to leave empire space or adding the new regions was a waste of time. ------------------------- I am a nobody of IMP my views are my own.
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:05:00 - [6] Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Quote: Mission runners are not interested in building conveniant little bundles of wrecks, scattering things 100's of kilometers apart. just remove wrecks from missions entirely , make it a low sec/0.0 only thing , encourage people to leave empire space or adding the new regions was a waste of time. That has to be the worst idea ive ever heard, all that would do is give the big rich alliances the only ones with access to it, either that or casual players would have to venture into pirate infested lowesec to get poped while salvaging, and either way you look at it rigs will end up costing a insane fortune.
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Kassidus That has to be the worst idea ive ever heard, all that would do is give the big rich alliances the only ones with access to it, either that or casual players would have to venture into pirate infested lowesec to get poped while salvaging, and either way you look at it rigs will end up costing a insane fortune. Quoted for truth, accuracy and a general sound understanding of things. Making wrecks and salvage low sec/0.0 would effectively create yet another Tech 2 market of sorts, with a license to print money in the hands of certain players only.
arjun Viziam	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:26:00 - [8] one question: do i become atackable by the owner of the wreck if i salvage it liker it is now when i loot a container owned by another player? if yes, then there will be no salvager professionals.
OneSock	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Kassidus casual players would have to venture into pirate infested lowesec to get poped while salvaging, and either way you look at it rigs will end up costing a insane fortune. Your forgetting that if you salvage someone elses wrecks you have to steal from them and you will be flagged even in high sec so you are NOT safe anywhere.
OneSock	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:42:00 - [10] Originally by: arjun one question: do i become atackable by the owner of the wreck if i salvage it liker it is now when i loot a container owned by another player? if yes, then there will be no salvager professionals. If the wreck is empty you can salvage it. If the wreck contains loot you have to steal from it and will be crim flagged. Scenarios: You go to salvage at a belt. lots of wrecks but most of them are not looted (by the miners) so you have to steal from them before you can salvage. You could be attacked by the miner's drones or his corp mates. (I was last night). You go salvage someone's mission. If they looted it you are in the clear. If not you are likely going to end up stealing from them and you will be flagged. You better be ready to defend yourself. Both the above kinda rule out a dedicated salvager ship. You need to be prepared to defend yourself. If you are salvaging your own missions or your corp mates then your safe, but then as the process is so damn slow, you might as well just run another mission.

Pesadel0 Vagabundos THE H0RDE	Posted - 2006.12.05 11:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Kassidus Originally by: D'onryu Shoqui Quote: Mission runners are not interested in building conveniant little bundles of wrecks, scattering things 100's of kilometers apart. just remove wrecks from missions entirely , make it a low sec/0.0 only thing , encourage people to leave empire space or adding the new regions was a waste of time. That has to be the worst idea ive ever heard, all that would do is give the big rich alliances the only ones with access to it, either that or casual players would have to venture into pirate infested lowesec to get poped while salvaging, and either way you look at it rigs will end up costing a insane fortune. Maybe you didn't knew but the devs had idealized the salvaging only from player owned ships,dunno what made them turn to salvaging every were. Salvaging was meant has a pirate/PVP profession. But the devs cave in or wanted to change the salvaging ideia. By the way i completely agree with shoqui.
Countess Kari Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:01:00 - [12] I hope the changes in this patch liven up salvaging a bit. It is a neat idea, but it makes me wonder how much thought went into it, I mean, you loot the "wreck", get a few modules, then salvage the wreck to get destroyed, burned, melted, basicaly damaged circuits, get enough of these and you can make a working rig to add to your ship, hell you dont even need to repair them, you just slap them together and it works, you dont even need minerals added to build rigs. I had figured we at least have to repair them and make them "whole" before they could be used.
Edu Journeyman Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:16:00 - [13] Originally by: Oveur We'll have more salvaging improvements ready for the patch next Tuesday, including more balancing of the drops. I hope some changes on Cosmos wrecks could be made... salvaging 1 unit of Metal Scrap (yeah, that one that is sold for 3-5 ISK) is not fun, if that was some type of joke... all you can salvage from Kaskas, Caldari Bandits, w/e NPC in Cosmos (at least the Caldari one) is 1 unit of Scrap Metal. Having the wrecks spreaded in the deadspace/place you are killing things become lag and I'm sure, with severe server work too, like in missions with drones, why someone would salvage the wreck if he/she know that there will be nothing there, same with missions with Mercenary. On a side note, you (CCP Dev Team) said in the Revelations Notes that the mission Worlds Collide would be less farmable... well, in 10 months playing EVE with one of the Chars being a mission runner, I just get Worlds Collide 2 times (1 was before revelations) and you really did some hard nerfing there: the Dread Guristas BS, Cruisers or Frigs don't drop any loot at all, even a single standard module, that is not turn it less farmable, it is turn it not "lootable"... Let me ask you, with the changes on fanction standings when rejecting some missions and get only the good ones was not solved this "farmable" tactic? Or I was really the unlucky guy that got WC offered only 2 times in 10 months, playing 3+ hours/day, 7 days/week? Hope all the problems can be solved soon, some player had the idea of an auto-destruction buttom in the wreck window, after it was looted and if the player don't plan to salvage it. Some Cosmos complexes became unplayable because the hundreds of wrecks spreaded in the place, more client side graphics work, less FPS, more server database work, more winning in the forum, less fun with the game, more ppl going to do some other stuff (not EVE related), well, I think you all got the picture... Good lucky in the next patch deployment. Be your journeys long and prosperous. Treat the others as you like to be treated. Rude and fool are enemies.
Lord WarATron Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Oveur We'll have more salvaging improvements ready for the patch next Tuesday, including more balancing of the drops. Bring in a "Tractor Smartbomb" to suck in lots of wrecks, and a "Salvage Smartbomb", and the current drop rates are fine. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Tubiger ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:18:00 - [15] Originally by: Countess Kari I had figured we at least have to repair them and make them "whole" before they could be used. Well, while we're talking about what would make sense - why not just build rigs out of the readily available new components? Presumably, there are many perfectly good versions of the salvage components in all of our ships, so it doesn't seem that it would be very hard to get factory-fresh parts :-P. But, no... there's just something magical about a ship explosion that makes a half-crapped out part viable where a mint condition one is not. I understand the reasoning for it in gameplay terms, but it strikes me as a bit odd in terms of common sense
James Snowscoran Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:20:00 - [16] It honestly sucks that all npc ships drop rigs, I completely agree that salvage should be pvp only as it was first planned as -----
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Oveur We'll have more salvaging improvements ready for the patch next Tuesday, including more balancing of the drops. Oveur- what checks are you going to have in place to ensure that the T2 ship producers do not make and pharm ships for mods if you up the drop rates. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.- -nerf Missles-
Commander Kaine	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:23:00 - [18] I was thinking of using a covert to salvage is this not a good idea ?
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Gonada Originally by: Oveur We'll have more salvaging improvements ready for the patch next Tuesday, including more balancing of the drops. Oveur- what checks are you going to have in place to ensure that the T2 ship producers do not make and pharm ships for mods if you up the drop rates. Look at drop rates now. Look at the prices people are willing to pay for rigs. Consider: is it at all conceivable that they could change the balance so that this would become profitable?
daedauls	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:38:00 - [20] i clearly missed something, when exactly did oveur say that salvaging was intended to be a pvp thing? from the first time i saw salvaging mentioned it was said that all drop cans would be replaced by wrecks which would then be salvaged. could you who assert differently please point me to the post about this whole pvp only thing?

OneSock	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:42:00 - [21] Originally by: Pesadel0 Salvaging was meant has a pirate/PVP profession. Would pirates would be willing to lose a high slot or two for salvagers ? I doubt it. Plus they would have had to make rig material requirements in the order of one to 10 units each instead of up to 100units. The only way to get the volume of units is to open it up to mission/plex/belt ratters.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Pesadel0 Maybe you didn't knew but the devs had idealized the salvaging only from player owned ships,dunno what made them turn to salvaging every were. Salvaging was meant has a pirate/PVP profession. But the devs cave in or wanted to change the salvaging ideia. They didn't "cave in", and there is a very valid reason why salvaging only from player ships would have been a very bad idea. If salvaging from player ships was the only source of rig parts, then the rig parts would be extremely valuable, due to their relatively limited supply. Now, I'm sure lots of you will say "great, rigs should be expensive and hard to get". And other will say "so increase the supply by making each ship drop more components, and get the rig price down". But neither of those address the core problem. Consider this - what if someone was to deliberately destroy their own ship, so they could salvage the wreckage? They could do this with fully-insured, unfitted T1 ships, so the cost of doing it is relatively low. High rig prices would mean that exploding your own ships and salvaging them became profitable. Increasing the drop per ship won't make exploding the ship less profitable, as though the price per unit falls, you get more units, so it'll work out about even. At which point, the attempt to make it a "pirate/PvP" profession instead ends up with lots of ship production in high-sec, followed by lots of ships exploding as soon as they undock (or exploding in high-sec safespots to avoid thieves). Self-destructing ships would become just another part of the production process. More ships would be dying, but it would have nothing to do with PvP combat. This would also have the undesirable effect of greatly increasing the amount of isk entering the game through the insurance system. No doubt someone at this point will cry "don't leave any salvage if they self-destruct then". At which point I bring in the corp mate/second account/trial account to shoot up the ship instead. Originally by: Gonada Oveur- what checks are you going to have in place to ensure that the T2 ship producers do not make and pharm ships for mods if you up the drop rates. I'm guessing that this will be handled by the simple expedient of ensuring that the supply from NPC drops is sufficient to keep prices from rising to the point where that is profitable. NPC's have T2 ships as well, remember. Originally by: Tubiger But, no... there's just something magical about a ship explosion that makes a half-crapped out part viable where a mint condition one is not. I understand the reasoning for it in gameplay terms, but it strikes me as a bit odd in terms of common sense Maybe the explosion strips off all those inconvenient things like casings, safety systems etc that prevent the mint condition version fitting in your ship, or being modified to give performance enhancements. You could then follow the line that the SCC impose quality standards on component manufacture and supply, preventing the ready stripping and reselling of components in manufacturing facilities. The trade in salvage gets round the regs by effectively being a trade in scrap, and the trade in rigs because they're supplied as a parts kit with instructions, rather than as a functional item (hence why you need the rigging skills to fit it, same as you'd need skills to build a kit-car). Of course, you could then follow the logic to suggest a low-sec-only POS module to construct "salvage" components, the same as there's now a POS module to make illegal drugs. But that could be countered by pointing out that destroyed ships are so common in the universe that developing such a POS module has never been economical enough for someone to bother. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Treher Minmatar Locust Syndicate Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.05 13:37:00 - [23] I believe salvage is turning into something they never intended. It seems like everyone will be able to do it and it is basically just an extra chore tacked onto belting or ratting. The whole thing is absurd really in comparison to how looting used to be. The salvage profession seems like a cool idea. I like the idea of being the 'system garbage man', especially in friendly alliance territory. In any system, I could mine, rat, or salvage. If you go into some missions there are fat roids, but most players don't mine them nor do they always invite a miner friend. Combining wrecks and cans was really the downfall. Problems with the profession iteself: 1) Tractor beams don't work on wrecks unless they are yours, the gangs, or corps. 2) Wrecks must be emptied first. If you are, going to salvage it, maybe the contents should disappear with the wreck. 3) Either drop rates must double or more, or rig reqs must be lowered. 4) Criminal flags in high sec can be a problem. However, CCP will make all that moot since it will just become a part of the looting process now. ______________________________________________________ I forget which station container has my memory implants.
Akhtar Leon Murientor Tribe Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Oveur We'll have more salvaging improvements ready for the patch next Tuesday, including more balancing of the drops. Meaning that BPO's will change requirements and some rig parts get in the soup of making a rig ... like Armor Plate rig parts?
Calleb	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:19:00 - [25] OK I would like to know if anyone at all has had any drops from drone wrecks. I have looked through what must literally be hundreds now and have not had a single item of salvage. Are they not supposed to be salvagable? and if not why have the wrecks cluttering up the place. As for salvaging other rat types I am having some success and have maybe got 10% of the required items to actually build my first rig. I think that means in another 9 weeks I will actually be able to build one - lol That makes about 5 a year so dont anyone come asking to buy as I will not be selling.
Hohenheim OfLight Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:38:00 - [26] AFter two days of salv in 0.0 i have manged to get over 100 items, i would say the dropping 80% of the time but it only seams to be the reaer items, the ones in demand that you nead like 150 off i only have 1 of :/ Now i am going to guess this is becsue i am ratting out in 0.0 that the rear parst are dropping like there is no tomorrow and the common ones dont drop at all. ---------------------------------------------- Gone but not forgotten
Forino Ovoli	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:54:00 - [27] Originally by: OneSock You go to salvage at a belt. lots of wrecks but most of them are not looted (by the miners) so you have to steal from them before you can salvage. You could be attacked by the miner's drones or his corp mates. (I was last night). I have been performing salvage operations quite heavily since last Thursday night. In many cases I ended up salvaging from wrecks that belonged to people currently in the belts. I contacted the owners, told them what I was doing and that I would be getting flagged moving their loot. I put the loot in a can that I towed along with my salvager vessel. In EVERY occasion they were very cooperative - in most cases they said they didn't care about the loot and to keep it, as they were only interested in mining. I was never attacked or threatened by anyone. I realize the potential exists - I mine in a destroyer (Catalyst) with two nanofibers equipped. The thing turns on a dime and I can warp out nearly instantly if I ever need to. Furthermore, I doubt many folks missioning, mining or ratting in high sec equip scramblers, but - even if they do - at most I lose a ship that costs less than 1M credits.


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