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Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:41:00 - [1] Logging of is killing pvp! Ha hahah... deal with it. We all do it... even pvpers. So to say it kills pvp is a hypocritical argument. Saying it kills ganking and griefing, then yes. That leads to more lame tactics by pvpers to yet again find other ganker/grief ways outside of pvpers, by scanning missioners. Why you scanning my mission! What right do they get to kill my objetives and take my wrecks. This is my personal deadspace. Nothing can be done here... perhaps an slight oversight by the devs. But it will always lead the 'Eve is non-consential pvp' argument. Okay, whatever... if that statement is true... it doesnt matter or not. It doesnt make it right or wrong to grief unwanting pvpers. It finally leads to this... why do you feel you have to pvp those that wish not to pvp? And referring to pvp I'm referring to setting up an uber ship to DPS the other uber DPS ship out of his socks. Again, those that claim pvp rules... simply wish to take on those that rather run solo, or stay in a happy empire corps. Why dont our loving pvpers fight eachother? I guess you have to ask them all that question. The few honorable ones do, but I'm afraid many wannabe pvpers are ruing what true pvp is about and also ruining the true pve that will never die. Missioners are the only true solo aspect left in Eve... Eve is PVE, simple. The players fighting other players are still categorized in the 'P' of PVE. Eve has NPCs... so stop saying this is a PVP game... its not. its far bigger than that... but go play Unreal if you want PVP.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:43:00 - [2] Bought anything off the market recently? Feel sorry for the guy who was griefed by the person who undercut him to get your business? Nah, thought not. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:48:00 - [3] Originally by: Avon Bought anything off the market recently? Feel sorry for the guy who was griefed by the person who undercut him to get your business? Nah, thought not. Stretching to make a point... didnt work... failed misreably. Eve still PVE.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:50:00 - [4] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Avon Bought anything off the market recently? Feel sorry for the guy who was griefed by the person who undercut him to get your business? Nah, thought not. Stretching to make a point... didnt work... failed misreably. Eve still PVE. Hardly stretching. Just because no-one got shot doesn't mean it isn't PvP. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:52:00 - [5] Doesn't make it PvP either... there are still items sold only by NPCs. Guess that's just not part of the game for you.
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:56:00 - [6] Edited by: Blacklight on 06/12/2006 14:55:47 Is there actually a sensible point to the original post? We know Eve and therefore deadspace missions are not instanced. We know that Eve has elements of both PVE and PVP. We know that Eve is very PVP centric in design. We know that not all PVPers just shoot other PVPers. Exactly what is the point you are making? Blog
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:56:00 - [7] Originally by: Lord Frost Doesn't make it PvP either... there are still items sold only by NPCs. Guess that's just not part of the game for you. Now who's stretching? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Lord Frost Logging of is killing pvp! Ha hahah... deal with it. We all do it... even pvpers. So to say it kills pvp is a hypocritical argument. Saying it kills ganking and griefing, then yes. Logging isn't 'killing' anything, but ganking is part of the game, griefing is largely as myth as Eve is so open there is very little you can do that isn't condoned, and logging is cheating. Originally by: Lord Frost That leads to more lame tactics by pvpers to yet again find other ganker/grief ways outside of pvpers, by scanning missioners. Why you scanning my mission! What right do they get to kill my objetives and take my wrecks. This is my personal deadspace. Sorry, no, there is no instancing in Eve, thus it takes place in shared space. While I don't think it should be quite so easy to catch missioners doing their thing, the fact that it can be done is part of the game. Your 'personal space' ends at the hangar door. Originally by: Lord Frost Nothing can be done here... perhaps an slight oversight by the devs. But it will always lead the 'Eve is non-consential pvp' argument. Okay, whatever... if that statement is true... it doesnt matter or not. It doesnt make it right or wrong to grief unwanting pvpers. Eve is non consensual PvP. This is also why it is not griefing (99% of the time). Originally by: Lord Frost It finally leads to this... why do you feel you have to pvp those that wish not to pvp? And referring to pvp I'm referring to setting up an uber ship to DPS the other uber DPS ship out of his socks. Again, those that claim pvp rules... simply wish to take on those that rather run solo, or stay in a happy empire corps. Why dont our loving pvpers fight eachother? I guess you have to ask them all that question. The few honorable ones do, but I'm afraid many wannabe pvpers are ruing what true pvp is about and also ruining the true pve that will never die. Honorable? People do what they want within the game mechanics. Killing mission runners may not seem fun to you, but it is to them, and it's part of the game. Originally by: Lord Frost Missioners are the only true solo aspect left in Eve... Eve is PVE, simple. The players fighting other players are still categorized in the 'P' of PVE. Eve has NPCs... so stop saying this is a PVP game... its not. its far bigger than that... but go play Unreal if you want PVP. WTF? Last call for the train to Delusion Town, all aboard! Woot Woot! ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:59:00 - [9] Edited by: Lord Frost on 06/12/2006 15:00:56 I made my point... you don't know how that item got in the market. Could of came off a deadspace rat in a solo misson. PVE. To put it in terms you can understand... PvEvP or... PLAYERS(all players) vs ENVIRONMENT
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Avon Hardly stretching. Just because no-one got shot doesn't mean it isn't PvP. You are making a fundamental mistake in assuming that all PvP is equal and all of the interactions involved are essentially the same. There is a qualitative difference between economic competition and having a missile rammed up your back-side when you jump through a gate. btw, what do think of WTZ? ;)
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:03:00 - [11] Originally by: Lord Frost To put it in terms you can understand... PvEvP ROFL:ROFL:LOL:ROFL:ROFL _________\|______ L / \ O===\| [] \ L \ \ \------------------ I I =================/ ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:06:00 - [12] Originally by: BurnHard btw, what do think of WTZ? ;) Hate it, don't get me started. Every time CCP pander to the "easymode" "risk adversed" players we end up with a forum full of threads asking for even more aspects of Eve to be "dumbed down". Give 'em an inch... The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Avon Originally by: BurnHard btw, what do think of WTZ? ;) Hate it, don't get me started. Every time CCP pander to the "easymode" "risk adversed" players we end up with a forum full of threads asking for even more aspects of Eve to be "dumbed down". Give 'em an inch... hehe... okay ... I'm sure ego Avon won't ever WTZ.... ROLF.... its too dumb down for him.
JamesTalon Caldari Electric Fury Corp	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:10:00 - [14] By definition, Player vs Player does not mean combat only. When you fight for customers on the market, you are fighting other players, ala PvP. When you mine, you take potential resources from other players, ala PvP. The one thing that isn't PvP in this game is the missions, only because you don't end up taking or preventing players from obtaining things this way, unless your the guy who scans them down. To say Eve is a PvE game is like saying the world is flat, tts been proven otherwise. Originally by: kieron EA was able to trademark the use of a barrel roll in a MMOG as an emote Originally by: Anatolius EVE should trademark 'pew pew pew' and then sue games that use lasers.
Admiral Feelgood Even-Flow	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Crumplecorn ROFL:ROFL:LOL:ROFL:ROFL _________\|______ L / \ O===\| [] \ L \ \ \------------------ I I =================/
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:11:00 - [16] Originally by: Lord Frost hehe... okay ... I'm sure ego Avon won't ever WTZ.... ROLF.... its too dumb down for him. Of course I will. I am not going to put myself at a disadvantage by not using the game mechanics. However, I would much rather that those mechanics did not exist. Same with Jumpclones. They are an overpowered game mechanic, which is why I hate them, and use them. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:12:00 - [17] Edited by: Winterblink on 06/12/2006 15:12:06 Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Avon Originally by: BurnHard btw, what do think of WTZ? ;) Hate it, don't get me started. Every time CCP pander to the "easymode" "risk adversed" players we end up with a forum full of threads asking for even more aspects of Eve to be "dumbed down". Give 'em an inch... hehe... okay ... I'm sure ego Avon won't ever WTZ.... ROLF.... its too dumb down for him. You might consider actually discussing things, rather than resorting to personal attacks. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Avon Originally by: BurnHard btw, what do think of WTZ? ;) Hate it, don't get me started. Every time CCP pander to the "easymode" "risk adversed" players we end up with a forum full of threads asking for even more aspects of Eve to be "dumbed down". Give 'em an inch... hehe... okay ... I'm sure ego Avon won't ever WTZ.... ROLF.... its too dumb down for him. What has Rolf got to do with this? Anyway, what was your specific point again? Why did you start this thread? What discussion point did you want to spark a debate? What mechanic are you arguing to be changed? Blog
Pychian Vanervi Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:15:00 - [19] To the OP. Corp name based on opinion of Eve, Crystal Meth OD? Anyway Eve is whatever you make it, PVP, PVE you can avoid both or interact with both as you see fit, if you take a few risks you get both. I rarely post due to ending up ranting but my god, I used to think player base of 5k could whip up a tin hat frenzy, 70k+ is verging on Apocolyptic. ----------------------------- It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Lord Frost hehe... okay ... I'm sure ego Avon won't ever WTZ.... ROLF.... its too dumb down for him. Of course I will. I am not going to put myself at a disadvantage by not using the game mechanics. However, I would much rather that those mechanics did not exist. Same with Jumpclones. They are an overpowered game mechanic, which is why I hate them, and use them. ahh, its good to have opinions... too bad yours are always selfish for your own agenda.
Dwayne Jarrett	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:17:00 - [21] Edited by: Dwayne Jarrett on 06/12/2006 15:16:41 Originally by: Lord Frost Logging of is killing pvp! Ha hahah... deal with it. We all do it... even pvpers. So to say it kills pvp is a hypocritical argument. Saying it kills ganking and griefing, then yes. That leads to more lame tactics by pvpers to yet again find other ganker/grief ways outside of pvpers, by scanning missioners. Why you scanning my mission! What right do they get to kill my objetives and take my wrecks. This is my personal deadspace. Nothing can be done here... perhaps an slight oversight by the devs. But it will always lead the 'Eve is non-consential pvp' argument. Okay, whatever... if that statement is true... it doesnt matter or not. It doesnt make it right or wrong to grief unwanting pvpers. It finally leads to this... why do you feel you have to pvp those that wish not to pvp? And referring to pvp I'm referring to setting up an uber ship to DPS the other uber DPS ship out of his socks. Again, those that claim pvp rules... simply wish to take on those that rather run solo, or stay in a happy empire corps. Why dont our loving pvpers fight eachother? I guess you have to ask them all that question. The few honorable ones do, but I'm afraid many wannabe pvpers are ruing what true pvp is about and also ruining the true pve that will never die. Missioners are the only true solo aspect left in Eve... Eve is PVE, simple. The players fighting other players are still categorized in the 'P' of PVE. Eve has NPCs... so stop saying this is a PVP game... its not. its far bigger than that... but go play Unreal if you want PVP. Not a flowchart, also inconsistent tense and perspective. Rambling, no coherent point. D-, needs improvement.
Breed Love FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:19:00 - [22] op, go play another game.
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:20:00 - [23] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Avon Originally by: Lord Frost hehe... okay ... I'm sure ego Avon won't ever WTZ.... ROLF.... its too dumb down for him. Of course I will. I am not going to put myself at a disadvantage by not using the game mechanics. However, I would much rather that those mechanics did not exist. Same with Jumpclones. They are an overpowered game mechanic, which is why I hate them, and use them. ahh, its good to have opinions... too bad yours are always selfish for your own agenda. What? Are you for real? What's your agenda then? I've asked several times, let me try again. What exactly was your point with this thread? Blog
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Lord Frost ahh, its good to have opinions... too bad yours are always selfish for your own agenda. If I was arguing from a purely selfish position I would argue in favour of jumpclones & wtz, both make me far more combat effective, and allow alliances to project power to control areas far greater than would otherwise be possible. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Harisdrop Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:23:00 - [25] Where are all the pirates. I want them to come back to 0.4-0.1 They are asking how they can get back into 1.0 systems. Ohhh my ------------------------------------- If shares where items the stock market would occur in EVE instantly. Starbase Charters Gallente
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:24:00 - [26] This thread is slowing down. It was entertaining. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Lord Frost ....crap.... Missioners are the only true solo aspect left in Eve... Eve is PVE, simple. The players fighting other players are still categorized in the 'P' of PVE. Eve has NPCs... so stop saying this is a PVP game... its not. its far bigger than that... but go play Unreal if you want PVP. This paragraph made me laugh. Eve-Online is a MMOG - Massively Multiplayer Online Game. Player interaction is key to it's survival, and vital to keep the economy balanced. In three years of playing "Eve is PvE" is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard someone say. If you think "PvP" is all about playing unreal tournament and ranking highest on a scoreboard somewhere in Eve, you're completely wrong on the most fundamental level. The entire core principle of how Eve's economy is sustained is based on player interaction, player vs player interaction and player vs player combat. "PvP" doesn't mean blowing someone up, or even attacking someone offensively. If you think this, then you have blinders on to the world that Eve is set in, and need to take a step back to see how this game works. Every time you undercut a market price, or train an industrial skill to be able to produce faster than someone else, you're PvPing. You're effectively trying to get an advantage over another player. Every time you strip mine a belt to be more efficient, and produce a large bulk of ships or modules, you're PvPing aganist someone 40 systems away doing the same in the race to get their product to the market first, at the cheapest price. These factors are even more evident right now, after a major expansion, seeing the people undercutting eachother's overinflated prices for new equiptment to get a better sale. Eve does have PvE elements, including mission running, and yes they can be soloed if people aren't in a sociable mind and would rather play on their own. Sadly, people who do this never enjoy Eve to it's full extent and never grasp the concept of what it is to be part of a large scale operation inside Eve's world, where with the numbers and determination, achieving anything within game mechanics is possible. I do agree that some of the corps out there who claim to be "PvP" corporations simply sit in highsec attacking weak targets who are of the same frame of mind as yourself, and who dislike PvP. Yeah, it's a sucky thing to do but some people can't handle losing so they have to pick on those who inadequately defend themselves. That's their problem. Eve is PvP based, everything you do here has effects on another player, no matter how minute, or how slight they are, whether it be blowing the hell out of someone, or putting a module on the market. Each player's wits are guaged aganist anothers on a daily basis and generally, the smarter more devious come out on top. As for logging out killing PvP? I don't think it is at all. Like, 90% of the people who've logged out on me have died, it's hardly a means of escape usually. A significant proportion of them probably would have beaten me had they not chosen to Ctrl+Q. I don't think it's killing PvP at all. Yes it's lame, but I'm safe in the knowledge I can laugh at those who are so insecure about losing virtual items in a game world that they choose to cheat in an attempt not to. Moreover, this thread in my opinion just seems to have been created to fuel the agee old "Carebear Vs PvPer" flame war that occasionally surfaces on these forums. It's flamebait waiting to happen, and your sarcastic tone in the original post is proof enough of why you wrote this. VETO FOR HIRE
xahldera Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:32:00 - [28] I think we should nerf the forums...all it seems to have is people whining constantly...;) Xahldera I once saw a Megathron on escrow that was actually a piece of megacyte. -User on Corp Chatroom
Allen Deckard Gallente LFC Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Lord Frost hehe... okay ... I'm sure ego Avon won't ever WTZ.... ROLF.... its too dumb down for him. Of course I will. I am not going to put myself at a disadvantage by not using the game mechanics. However, I would much rather that those mechanics did not exist. Same with Jumpclones. They are an overpowered game mechanic, which is why I hate them, and use them. Don't get me wrong here but isn't logging off a game mechanic? Unintended game mechanic I do admit but a game mechanic never the less. If it wasn't a game mechanic your ship would just sit there for the 2 min or whatever or it would just disappear. So if it's a game mechanic (someone programed it) then you also said you wouldn't put yourself at a disadvantage by NOT using a game mechanic available to you does this mean you indeed log off in pvp if your going to die? I am sure you dont. Anyway we all choose what 'we' think eve was created for. What it all means. Why something is in the game and why other things arent. All in all I think eve is a pretty balanced game. Cant really say there is ONE race or ship or thing in the game that is the beginning and end best thing and everyones gotta have it. Every patch brings good and bad usually things get balanced out after a bit. Right now I think rigging gonna just be crazy to expensive. Missions undoable. I dont do missions anyway but if i ever wanted to do them again I can see I wont bother. If missions were the only thing I liked in the game I would probably just leave. The whole warping out thing when you log is wrong. sorry but your ship should just sit there. Whatever moduels you had activated on logging droping whatever should stay active then you should just poof. Shouldn't be any way of petitioning to get crap back for any reason besides server crash and if it crashes everything going on in the server should stop thus when you log back in your in same spot and once again no petitions. Ahh whatever game is still fun for me. But I have no personal attachments to it. Pirates of the burning sea comes out in june and it's gonna be a tough decision between the two.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Allen Deckard Don't get me wrong here but isn't logging off a game mechanic? No. It is a mechanic to stop playing the game. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:41:00 - [31] Originally by: Allen Deckard Originally by: Avon Originally by: Lord Frost hehe... okay ... I'm sure ego Avon won't ever WTZ.... ROLF.... its too dumb down for him. Of course I will. I am not going to put myself at a disadvantage by not using the game mechanics. However, I would much rather that those mechanics did not exist. Same with Jumpclones. They are an overpowered game mechanic, which is why I hate them, and use them. Don't get me wrong here but isn't logging off a game mechanic? Unintended game mechanic I do admit but a game mechanic never the less. If it wasn't a game mechanic your ship would just sit there for the 2 min or whatever or it would just disappear. So if it's a game mechanic (someone programed it) then you also said you wouldn't put yourself at a disadvantage by NOT using a game mechanic available to you does this mean you indeed log off in pvp if your going to die? I am sure you dont. Ending the game is not a game mechanic. It is a real world mechanic. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:44:00 - [32] Exiting the game to initiate the log out timer for your ship to dissapear so as not to lose it in combat is the perfect defention of an exploit. "Using a game mechanic in a way unintended, to gain an advantage over another player." VETO FOR HIRE
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:44:00 - [33] ok .. i thought i have seen everything ... but this OP is the dumbest post. ever. ___________________ EVE: Revelations - The Game for Carebears and Gankbears no more skill needed for PvP - only skillpoints for Large Bubble and CovOps n00b-alts
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte ok .. i thought i have seen everything ... but this OP is the dumbest post. ever. In a twisted way it's excellent. Because there is still some pure solo PvE content, Eve must by definition be PvE, and the whole rest of the game is just extra fluff. You've got to admit, the average joe could not come up with that. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Too Kind	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:52:00 - [35] All this 'waah waah' like 'unconsentual pvp is griefing' ... 'I want to play my game and be left alone' ... 'logging is fine, as long as CCP doesn'stop it, I do it !' etc. just motivates me to use all means possible to decimate those guys myself. Question is, how to find them without doing too much collateral damage. -------------------------- Post with your main !!!111
Decadent Diva	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:57:00 - [36] it is easy ... there are many many players in this game thinking PVP = GANKING the miner/mission runner who got ganked several times = this ganking has to stop ffs, ccp do something the "pvper" only performing the "art" of ganking = ccp ffs nerf bookmarks, ccp nerf wcs, ccp nerf anything but not me" sometimes you have remember what pvp means, its player vs player not me vs hahaha n00b pwndyo lolz logoff next time and i can whine on the forum and not me vs ***** retarted ganker idiot ***** just show some "respect" yes, i know its hard :D
Allen Deckard Gallente LFC Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:11:00 - [37] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Allen Deckard Don't get me wrong here but isn't logging off a game mechanic? No. It is a mechanic to stop playing the game. Its a mechanic to stop playing the game yes. BUT your ship flying away after logging off IS a game mechanic. I aint no programmer nor do I claim to know the first thing about it. But I do know someone sat in a little room and typed a crap load of little characters to make it so your ship flew away after logging off and didn't just disapear as soon as the client stoped responding. They had choices when they did that. 1. it disappear 2. it disappear after a couple seconds 3. if fly away immediately 4. it fly away after a few seconds, min, hours, whatever 5. heck they could have it slowly disolve they could have it blow up if not in a station They could have had it do a thousand different things they could have had it spin in a circle 50 times fly away and dock if they wanted but what they CHOOSE for it to do is immediately fly away after the client is droped. The fact they programed this into the game makes it a game mechanic. Now I have never logged out as my horrable death record shows. but to say it's not a game mechanic is incorrect in terminology anyway.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:16:00 - [38] Originally by: Allen Deckard The fact they programed this into the game makes it a game mechanic. The game had to be programmed to handle it, and they tried to handle it in a fair way, but that does not make it a game mechanic. It is, by definition, not. From the servers perspective, Ctrl+Q and unplugging your router are the same thing. Is unplugging your router a game mechanic too? The game is programmed to handle it... ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Lord WarATron Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:24:00 - [39] Originally by: Crumplecorn From the servers perspective, Ctrl+Q and unplugging your router are the same thing. Is unplugging your router a game mechanic too? The game is programmed to handle it... From the servers perspective, an individual hitting f1 is the same as a marble that rolls off a shelf and lands on the f1 key. Does this mean that a marble is not a game mechanic? This logic does not work. You are comparing the actions of the server to that of the user. Stick with the server. It is a game mechanic that if the server does not detect the client logged in, it will move your ship into warp and make it dissapear. How the disconnect is done is irrelevant, since the player can simulate any type of disconnection. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:35:00 - [40] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Lord Frost ahh, its good to have opinions... too bad yours are always selfish for your own agenda. If I was arguing from a purely selfish position I would argue in favour of jumpclones & wtz, both make me far more combat effective, and allow alliances to project power to control areas far greater than would otherwise be possible. Great... I think I'm weening you now to the bright side of things... hahah. In other comments about this post....WOW, so much anger from such a loving group. You all must really love your gankfests. I can tell when I get under your skin. All I have to do is say Eve is NOT PvP... Its PVE and you all go ballistic. Can you comprehend that the players interaction is the player side of PvE... and the enviroment in the other side? No matter what you do, where you have gone, there was some game mechanic that had some PvE element in it that got you to where you are now with what you have.... end of story. PVE. There's not one person that can say they are where they are purely from PvP... creat an alt, and lets see how far you get. Oh wait, I think you have to buy some skills... I think you have to buy mods, and ships, all of which are made by players doing PvE... hmmm, maybe some named items found in mission loots. Nope, you can't have those... they we're dropped from a PvE experience. Let's see how much spin you all can get from that one... ready... wait for it... go!
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:45:00 - [41] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Avon Originally by: Lord Frost ahh, its good to have opinions... too bad yours are always selfish for your own agenda. If I was arguing from a purely selfish position I would argue in favour of jumpclones & wtz, both make me far more combat effective, and allow alliances to project power to control areas far greater than would otherwise be possible. Great... I think I'm weening you now to the bright side of things... hahah. In other comments about this post....WOW, so much anger from such a loving group. You all must really love your gankfests. I can tell when I get under your skin. All I have to do is say Eve is NOT PvP... Its PVE and you all go ballistic. Can you comprehend that the players interaction is the player side of PvE... and the enviroment in the other side? No matter what you do, where you have gone, there was some game mechanic that had some PvE element in it that got you to where you are now with what you have.... end of story. PVE. There's not one person that can say they are where they are purely from PvP... creat an alt, and lets see how far you get. Oh wait, I think you have to buy some skills... I think you have to buy mods, and ships, all of which are made by players doing PvE... hmmm, maybe some named items found in mission loots. Nope, you can't have those... they we're dropped from a PvE experience. Let's see how much spin you all can get from that one... ready... wait for it... go! so following your logic - there's no PvP game. counterstrike - as you buy the weapons/ammo from the "environment", omni-present market 4tw unreal tournament - as your your weapons and ammo spawn on certain points of the map you get all your stuff from the "environment" every other game - there's no game that doesn't introduce ressources/objects through the "environment" maybe second life could be, using your logic, classified as a PvP game. you know a term that is used to describe allmost everything hasn't much informative value. ___________________ EVE: Revelations - The Game for Carebears and Gankbears no more skill needed for PvP - only skillpoints for Large Bubble and CovOps n00b-alts
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:46:00 - [42] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Avon Originally by: Lord Frost ahh, its good to have opinions... too bad yours are always selfish for your own agenda. If I was arguing from a purely selfish position I would argue in favour of jumpclones & wtz, both make me far more combat effective, and allow alliances to project power to control areas far greater than would otherwise be possible. Great... I think I'm weening you now to the bright side of things... hahah. In other comments about this post....WOW, so much anger from such a loving group. You all must really love your gankfests. I can tell when I get under your skin. All I have to do is say Eve is NOT PvP... Its PVE and you all go ballistic. Can you comprehend that the players interaction is the player side of PvE... and the enviroment in the other side? No matter what you do, where you have gone, there was some game mechanic that had some PvE element in it that got you to where you are now with what you have.... end of story. PVE. There's not one person that can say they are where they are purely from PvP... creat an alt, and lets see how far you get. Oh wait, I think you have to buy some skills... I think you have to buy mods, and ships, all of which are made by players doing PvE... hmmm, maybe some named items found in mission loots. Nope, you can't have those... they we're dropped from a PvE experience. Let's see how much spin you all can get from that one... ready... wait for it... go! You think people are flaming you because we dislike the idea that Eve is PvE. You are mistaken. We are flaming you because this idea is retarded, and you express it particularly badly. As for the rest of this post, it reads exactly like the mock version I wrote up above. The one where I made it sound as stupid as I could..? ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
DefJam101 Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Lord Frost Logging of is killing pvp! Ha hahah... deal with it. We all do it... even pvpers. So to say it kills pvp is a hypocritical argument. Saying it kills ganking and griefing, then yes. Your a disgrace -_- ***
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:52:00 - [44] Originally by: DefJam101 Originally by: Lord Frost Logging of is killing pvp! Ha hahah... deal with it. We all do it... even pvpers. So to say it kills pvp is a hypocritical argument. Saying it kills ganking and griefing, then yes. Your a disgrace -_- hahah... you have no argument for the truth. If someone you are pvping logs off, then why exactly is the point of saying it kills pvp when pvpers are doing it? And I'd be the first to bet if you were in the same situaltion, you'd also log off. You're so hypocritical. Somone has the current advantage looks at the logoff as a problem for his kills, but when its reversed you see it as a way to avoid dying. Common sense my friend... logging off kills ganking and griefing... thats the more acceptable statment. You've been lawyered!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte so following your logic - there's no PvP game. counterstrike - as you buy the weapons/ammo from the "environment", omni-present market 4tw unreal tournament - as your your weapons and ammo spawn on certain points of the map you get all your stuff from the "environment" every other game - there's no game that doesn't introduce ressources/objects through the "environment" maybe second life could be, using your logic, classified as a PvP game. you know a term that is used to describe allmost everything hasn't much informative value. No, you're stretching to make points for your lack of an arguemnt. Eve is PvE cause it has the AI from NPC rats.... nuff said. It has game situations for the individual gamer. Don't streeeeeeeeeeeeeetch and form unrealistic comparision.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:57:00 - [46] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: DefJam101 Originally by: Lord Frost Logging of is killing pvp! Ha hahah... deal with it. We all do it... even pvpers. So to say it kills pvp is a hypocritical argument. Saying it kills ganking and griefing, then yes. Your a disgrace -_- hahah... you have no argument for the truth. If someone you are pvping logs off, then why exactly is the point of saying it kills pvp when pvpers are doing it? And I'd be the first to bet if you were in the same situaltion, you'd also log off. You're so hypocritical. Somone has the current advantage looks at the logoff as a problem for his kills, but when its reversed you see it as a way to avoid dying. Common sense my friend... logging off kills ganking and griefing... thats the more acceptable statment. You've been lawyered! PvEers logging off hurts PvP. PvPers logging off really would kill PvP (if they all did it). So saying it doesn't kill PvP because PvPers do it is nonsensical to say the least. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:58:00 - [47] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 06/12/2006 16:59:02 Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte so following your logic - there's no PvP game. counterstrike - as you buy the weapons/ammo from the "environment", omni-present market 4tw unreal tournament - as your your weapons and ammo spawn on certain points of the map you get all your stuff from the "environment" every other game - there's no game that doesn't introduce ressources/objects through the "environment" maybe second life could be, using your logic, classified as a PvP game. you know a term that is used to describe allmost everything hasn't much informative value. No, you're stretching to make points for your lack of an arguemnt. Eve is PvE cause it has the AI from NPC rats.... nuff said. It has game situations for the individual gamer. Don't streeeeeeeeeeeeeetch and form unrealistic comparision. The argument wasn't a stretch before I pointed out that unreal tournament has a single player mode, with the 'NPC AI' you mention as a defining characteristic of PvE games in your post. Now that I have pointed it out, it's a bulletproof argument. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Kiyano	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:00:00 - [48] Originally by: Lord Frost Eve is PvE cause it has the AI from NPC rats.... nuff said. I think you mean Eve HAS PvE not IS PvE. Pretty much all the PvE in this game is a means to an end, and that end almost always ends up being PvP. I don't really see any argument for Eve being a primarily PvE game getting very far when it quite clearly isn't.
Hans Roaming Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:02:00 - [49] EVE is a PVP game with PVE content, from combat to market to mining and npcing it's all verses other players and non consential. As for combat pvpers fighting each other what do you think happens in the 0.0 alliances? Also where do you think the high end content happens? Not seen many titans and outposts in empire myself lately.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:08:00 - [50] Originally by: Kiyano Originally by: Lord Frost Eve is PvE cause it has the AI from NPC rats.... nuff said. I think you mean Eve HAS PvE not IS PvE. Pretty much all the PvE in this game is a means to an end, and that end almost always ends up being PvP. I don't really see any argument for Eve being a primarily PvE game getting very far when it quite clearly isn't. Truth is I can join this game, and not once have to deal with another player if I choose not to. All the bps, research, missions, belts are avialable for me... I can be a solo for life here.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:12:00 - [51] Originally by: Hans Roaming EVE is a PVP game with PVE content, from combat to market to mining and npcing it's all verses other players and non consential. As for combat pvpers fighting each other what do you think happens in the 0.0 alliances? Also where do you think the high end content happens? Not seen many titans and outposts in empire myself lately. I can agree with this statement... but think about 0.0 alliances... yes they pvp, but when they don't, most PvE in their complexes and belts
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:15:00 - [52] I think most people seem to miss the OPs point, at least as I see it, which is very valid: Why do some people feel the need to impose themselves on others? Someone running a solo mission in high sec empire has obviously made the choice, as a player, to not interact with others at that time. What does it say for the actual person who chooses to push himself when clearly unwanted? This is not about EVE having non-concensual PvP and it is not about people wanting to be 100% safe. It is about the motivation of the griefer. What kind of real life deficiencies and self esteem issues must that person have, if they get enjoyment out of annoying others. ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:15:00 - [53] You still seem to be missing the whole 'part of it being PvE doesn't make the whole thing PvE' bit. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:17:00 - [54] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 06/12/2006 17:20:32 Edited by: Crumplecorn on 06/12/2006 17:17:27 Originally by: Shemar I think most people seem to miss the OPs point, at least as I see it, which is very valid: Why do some people feel the need to impose themselves on others? Someone running a solo mission in high sec empire has obviously made the choice, as a player, to not interact with others at that time. What does it say for the actual person who chooses to push himself when clearly unwanted? This is not about EVE having non-concensual PvP and it is not about people wanting to be 100% safe. It is about the motivation of the griefer. What kind of real life deficiencies and self esteem issues must that person have, if they get enjoyment out of annoying others. It's the game. I'll say it again. It's the game. If you choose to turtle in an RTS and someone rushes your base instead of letting you play the game the way you want, why do they do that? Doesn't matter! It's the game. Also, they are not griefers, and attempting to insult them is pathetic. GBTW. It's like saying boxers must be really screwed up because they like hitting other people. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Cohl	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:37:00 - [55] Edited by: Cohl on 06/12/2006 17:39:57 Although the OP was pretty rough to follow i think i see where he is getting at. PvP in "safe" missions is a big ****-off to new players. Being fairly new myself, i've had to come to terms with the prospect of losing my ship or the majority of my ISK at any time. The appeal of the game and pure revenge drives me to keep playing. I want the skills and experience of the lame veteran players who camp .4 space and kill me for no obvious reason other than I was there too. To play Eve means you have to accept PvP. My point is that alot of new players won't see it this way. They'll see the game as unfair and completely unbalanced. They'll see people who have been playing for a year or more with unbelievable skills and ships and when that new player's first new frigate gets wtfpwned during their first few missions... that player may just log off and never come back. Maybe that's what you want. Maybe that's a way for the veterans to weed out the whiners and 1337 kids who would ruin this universe. On the other hand, it's new players that allow us to keep playing. No, deadspace missions HAVE to remain safe for Eve to stay alive. If people insist on PvP in missions it should be in level 3's and 4's. Otherwise the game will be a complete turnoff to rookie players.
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:37:00 - [56] Originally by: Crumplecorn It's the game. I'll say it again. It's the game. If you choose to turtle in an RTS and someone rushes your base instead of letting you play the game the way you want, why do they do that? Doesn't matter! It's the game. Strange, I play this game for over two years and I never felt the need to interact with people that did not want to interact with me... Of course, people do want to interact with me, both IRL and in the game so maybe that's why I don't get it Originally by: Crumplecorn Also, they are not griefers, and attempting to insult them is pathetic. GBTW. It's like saying boxers must be really screwed up because they like hitting other people. Anyone taking enjoyment out of annoying others is a griefer. It's on thing to do things for financial gain within the framework of tha game, but when you do things just to annoy people you are a griefer. Your boxing example could not be any more wrong. I don't remember any boxing games where one of the competitors stepped into the ring without wanting to fight. ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:41:00 - [57] Originally by: Cohl Although the OP was pretty rough to follow i think i see where he is getting at. PvP in "safe" missions is a big ***-off to new players. Being fairly new myself, i've had to come to terms with the prospect of losing my ship or the majority of my ISK at any time. The appeal of the game and pure revenge drives me to keep playing. I want the skills and experience of the lame veteran players who camp .4 space and kill me for no obvious reason other than I was there too. To play Eve means you have to accept PvP. Sorry but the moment you step into .4 you declare that it's ok for other people to shoot you. People that do not want to be shot should stay in high sec (and converesely people who stay in high sec have the expectation to be able to play ungriefed for the majority of their time). That's why there is high sec, low sec and 0.0, so people can choose their level of exposure to hostile actions vs. the rewards. ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision*
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:43:00 - [58] Edited by: DarkElf on 06/12/2006 17:43:47 Just to clarify. The logging off and then disappearing after 30 seconds is a game mechanic designed so that if ppl want to leave the game while in space they don't get killed. ppl are using this as a way of avoiding combat which by definition is exploiting this procedure ie it is an exploit. logging off in space should only be used to exit the game for none combat related reasons and devs have said this on several occasions. furthermore ppl who log off after they have been aggressed and scrammed just make me laugh that they actually think it will save them. ccp made it so after combat has started u do not disappear for 15 minutes which clearluy indicates that they don't want ppl to be able to use the log off for combat reasons. quite clear to me DE
Nai Ling Diligent Souls	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:48:00 - [59] To the OP This thread lacks meaning.
Allen Deckard Gallente LFC Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:05:00 - [60] Originally by: DarkElf Edited by: DarkElf on 06/12/2006 17:43:47 Just to clarify. The logging off and then disappearing after 30 seconds is a game mechanic designed so that if ppl want to leave the game while in space they don't get killed. ppl are using this as a way of avoiding combat which by definition is exploiting this procedure ie it is an exploit. logging off in space should only be used to exit the game for none combat related reasons and devs have said this on several occasions. furthermore ppl who log off after they have been aggressed and scrammed just make me laugh that they actually think it will save them. ccp made it so after combat has started u do not disappear for 15 minutes which clearluy indicates that they don't want ppl to be able to use the log off for combat reasons. quite clear to me DE ahh glad to have someone here to clarify things. I'm sorry I didn't realize you wrote the code for the game. if your going to post you should really have the yellow bar above and below your name. Pretty sure when I started playing the game a few years ago and did the tutorial it said something about 1.0 being safe space and slowly degrading there after till the point in which it says .4 and your entering an area concord wont help you. Seems game mechanics to me were designed that high sec would be......well........high sec. Someone comming in my house as they please and takin my crap and I have been payin a sec guard to keep "high sec" in my home says "well ur alive aint ya" hmm to me this would not be a high sec. in my home. Look I got nothing again pirates, hey it's a profession. Doesn't give me any joy but whatever floats ur boat. Thieves? well just cant say much about that. Gankers? well .4 and below thats the way it is, the way it's supposed to be. High sec throw away char gankers? Exploiters to me. People logging out to avoid combat? Again exploiters. People using probes to find "hidden dead space missions" in high sec? again exploiters using probes for something other than real pvp their not out for a fight just there to steal and cause grief. Anyway thats my opinion. see it's my "OPINION" I am not here to "clarify" or to give nice statements about things I dont know like "which by definition" to me "by definition" they moved missions away from gates to stop what just started. but that would be my opinion of the definition.
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:21:00 - [61] Originally by: Shemar I think most people seem to miss the OPs point, at least as I see it, which is very valid: Why do some people feel the need to impose themselves on others? Someone running a solo mission in high sec empire has obviously made the choice, as a player, to not interact with others at that time. What does it say for the actual person who chooses to push himself when clearly unwanted? This is not about EVE having non-concensual PvP and it is not about people wanting to be 100% safe. It is about the motivation of the griefer. What kind of real life deficiencies and self esteem issues must that person have, if they get enjoyment out of annoying others. It's called escapism i.e. one of the reasons we all play games, read books, watch TV & movies, LARP () or any of the other things we do to have some fun that is removed from our normal lives. Some people like to play the bad guy online to have fun, Eve allows them to do this. Just because you, the original poster here or anyone else reading these forums doesn't like to play that way doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it or with the people behind the characters that do it - for you all you know they could be doctors, Nobel Laureates or priests. Blog
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:27:00 - [62] Originally by: Allen Deckard People using probes to find "hidden dead space missions" in high sec? again exploiters using probes for something other than real pvp their not out for a fight just there to steal and cause grief. sorry - here i have to correct you ... Originally by: Oveur Two things to take into consideration here, you are supposed to be able to scan out people, whether they are doing missions, mining or hiding. On the other hand, it's not supposed to be too easy to find everyone. TomB is looking into the scanner balancing specifically around this, let's see what his findings are. link ___________________ EVE: Revelations - The Game for Carebears and Gankbears no more skill needed for PvP - only skillpoints for Large Bubble and CovOps n00b-alts
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:33:00 - [63] Originally by: Allen Deckard Originally by: DarkElf Edited by: DarkElf on 06/12/2006 17:43:47 Just to clarify. The logging off and then disappearing after 30 seconds is a game mechanic designed so that if ppl want to leave the game while in space they don't get killed. ppl are using this as a way of avoiding combat which by definition is exploiting this procedure ie it is an exploit. logging off in space should only be used to exit the game for none combat related reasons and devs have said this on several occasions. furthermore ppl who log off after they have been aggressed and scrammed just make me laugh that they actually think it will save them. ccp made it so after combat has started u do not disappear for 15 minutes which clearluy indicates that they don't want ppl to be able to use the log off for combat reasons. quite clear to me DE ahh glad to have someone here to clarify things. I'm sorry I didn't realize you wrote the code for the game. if your going to post you should really have the yellow bar above and below your name. Pretty sure when I started playing the game a few years ago and did the tutorial it said something about 1.0 being safe space and slowly degrading there after till the point in which it says .4 and your entering an area concord wont help you. Seems game mechanics to me were designed that high sec would be......well........high sec. Someone comming in my house as they please and takin my crap and I have been payin a sec guard to keep "high sec" in my home says "well ur alive aint ya" hmm to me this would not be a high sec. in my home. Look I got nothing again pirates, hey it's a profession. Doesn't give me any joy but whatever floats ur boat. Thieves? well just cant say much about that. Gankers? well .4 and below thats the way it is, the way it's supposed to be. High sec throw away char gankers? Exploiters to me. People logging out to avoid combat? Again exploiters. People using probes to find "hidden dead space missions" in high sec? again exploiters using probes for something other than real pvp their not out for a fight just there to steal and cause grief. Anyway thats my opinion. see it's my "OPINION" I am not here to "clarify" or to give nice statements about things I dont know like "which by definition" to me "by definition" they moved missions away from gates to stop what just started. but that would be my opinion of the definition. what i clarified was that it is an exploit. i don't decide what an exploit is but ccp do, i wasn't telling ppl what it was i was clarifying what ccp say. i'm sorry u have such an issue with that word i used lol. also probing out mission runners is not an exploit because probes were designed to probe out ships, simple. what u do to those ships is your decision. if u blow them up or steal there stuff all designed to be able to do after u probe someone. logging out to avoid combat as said by ccp is not a game mechanic. and about the tutorial, games change dude, so has the tutorial. for a long time now they have not been telling newbies that high sec is safe. just thought i'd clarify that for you DE
Shemar Gallente Photesthetics Glamour Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:33:00 - [64] Originally by: Blacklight Some people like to play the bad guy online to have fun, Eve allows them to do this. Just because you, the original poster here or anyone else reading these forums doesn't like to play that way doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it or with the people behind the characters that do it - for you all you know they could be doctors, Nobel Laureates or priests. That would only be accurate if you were 'role playing' the bad guy. Nothing wrong with that. But... Aggroing the whole room and leaving or stealing the mission critical item on a mission runner is taking advantage of game mechanics to annoy that person and that is something the player, not the character does. The character cannot possibly have the concept of 'aggro' or the knowledge that this item is mission critical because he has done the same mission 100 times. Unless your point is that some people use EVE to act out on all the vile tendencies they have as real people but can't because they'll get caught in RL, in which case, that's my point, really. ________________ Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision
Marked Prospectus	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:34:00 - [65] If only because I've seen this kind of MMO Logoff element whining before, and it's inevitable consequences, I'll go ahead and give you a look into the future. Since I'm not omniscient I can only guess as to which of the following solutions will be implimented, but it'll give some of the crazy rants here a direction to focus on. Logoff "solutions:" 1. Stay the Same This is sort of obvious, the Devs picked the warp off in a random direction at a random distance as the logoff solution already for good reasons. There will have to be a significant reason to change this further. (And the scram after logoff change recently is more representative of this being the end solution.) 2. Introduce Logoff penalties This is another obvious direction, as it is the way to mitigate abuse. Logging off players would be penalized by losing something for logging off "unsafely." This had the benefit of giving you a new pvp dynamic (camping logoff spots) as you can inflict damage on logoff-abusers by simply forcing them to logoff. Unfortunately this unfairly penalizes those on lower quality connections, and the 0.0 commandos who may not dock for weeks at a time, and rarely see a POS bubble. 3. Remove logging off as a dynamic Leave your ship in space, no random flying off, fish in a barrel for PVPers etc etc. This is probably never going to happen. So pick your poison.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:35:00 - [66] Originally by: Blacklight Some people like to play the bad guy online to have fun, Eve allows them to do this. Just because you, the original poster here or anyone else reading these forums doesn't like to play that way doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it or with the people behind the characters that do it - for you all you know they could be doctors, Nobel Laureates or priests. Play the bad guy... fine, that's not the problem. How long have people been able to run these missions without intrusion... and now we have expliots of the scanning system which was designed to weed out safespot huggers and used in exploration. The PvPers wanted this, yet they use it to attack those that wish not to PvP. Its a game mechanic that is NEW, yet you all think its perfectly fine. How so? It changed many of our gamestyles and disrupted a design made for the solo missioner... the deadspace. So, it is literally a broken game mechanic... there is NO viable counter, there is a huge flaw on one said. But of course the 'bad guy' likes it. Realize this, then try not to be selfish, and look for a common gameplay ground... such as anyone jumping in your deadspace is immediatly flagged and killable. Howver, you have to leave room for noobs to begin this game... so limit that to lvl 3 and 4s. You see, its about compromise, not trying to be an uber piewat bastid. Those exploiting weak lame tactics are pathetic... who cares if its allowed under the game mechanics... you're still pathetic, and only an idiotso would sit here and say nothing is wrong with the new design... well, I'm sure some day, but those are the selfish ones only in it for their own selfish agenda.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:54:00 - [67] "This paragraph made me laugh. Eve-Online is a MMOG - Massively Multiplayer Online Game." It shouldn't unless your fundamental understanding of a MMOG truly is. It doesnt mean massively multiplayer play with 40 people every night all night or you can't play at all game. It simply means alot of other people will play in the same world as you nothing more nothing less. IT implys nothing about needing to group or work with others to achieve anything. Infact just look at eve grouping tools and you will find there are very little, which obviously suggests eve was not designed to be played primarily in gangs. There are many other MMOG's that also can be played 90% solo. Anyrate to the OP part of your point is valid and easily explained. There is a segment of very weak players in eve that think they are uber gamers because they can kill people mining or mission running who obviously will not have a ship equipped in a way capable of winning a pvp fight. Why they call it pvp is beyond me because it really isnt player VS player. Player vs player means me vs you and you vs me, not you shooting me the sitting duck or vice versa. Why CCP panders to these pathetic excuses for gamers is beyond me also. They do all they can to avoid playing their games to take on challenge and risk, these are the guys who use a max level character and camp noobie spawns, they did it in eve so badly that finally CCP added concord. It still isnt enough. There needs to be a new profession in eve pirate hunter. CCP needs to provide the player base with effective tools so that hunting pirates becomes as easy and effective as a pirate has of hunting mission runners and miners. Like a new scanner allows you to scan out anyne in a system by sec status, and allows you to warp right onto them. Seems fair? I would think so. Then we can hear all the mighty RAWR! eve is pvp cant hack it leave tough guys whining as they get victimized by pirate hunters as easily as they victimize mission runners and miners :P Doubt it will happen as the priates are some of the most vocal and whiney board warriors in eve. like avon for example.
RopeADope Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:55:00 - [68] OMG Verone....your post on Page one was amazing...I've often tried to find the words to describe PvP and you nailed it. ffs...marry me
Mortuus Minmatar Just-fun Distant Star Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:15:00 - [69] Edited by: Mortuus on 06/12/2006 19:16:56 You are playing in the same world as everyone else. People will interact with you, directly or indirectly. Me, I like shooting people, so what do I do, I shoot people. I don't care who they are as long as its not blue. Miners, Industrial ships, BS, HACs, frigates, whatever. I fought a SMASH alliance gang that outnumbered me 1v7 or so, it was fun, I escaped. I've been fighting GOONs constantly for the last week or so, they are great guys/girls and fun to play with. Will I shoot a mission runner if I get the chance, hell yes, easy loot I can use to continue having fun my way. NPCing and Missions are boring, so I kill people and get money that way. I may not make tons, but I make well more than enough to get more ships. You are interacting with other players everytime you do a mission. The influx of isk causes inflation, you put new goods on the market, trying to sell yours to other players for as much as you can get. Thats PvP. AS everything in this game affects everyone else in it, even if it is in a minor way, you are in fact interacting with others in a competetive way. PvP. WTS Gisti B-Type Large, and Pith B-Type EM hardener ex-Occassus Republica <3
Allen Deckard Gallente LFC Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:24:00 - [70] Originally by: DarkElf Originally by: Allen Deckard Originally by: DarkElf Edited by: DarkElf on 06/12/2006 17:43:47 also probing out mission runners is not an exploit because probes were designed to probe out ships, simple. what u do to those ships is your decision. if u blow them up or steal there stuff all designed to be able to do after u probe someone. logging out to avoid combat as said by ccp is not a game mechanic. nullnull First where has ccp said that logging was an exploit? Just currious as it seems all would be needed is to petition someone doing it they get a few petitions on them and get banned. As far as probing out missions as it is currently? Well guess we'll see. no way it can stay as it is. Right now seems like about the same as training out probing and finding your hanger then what I do with your hanger is my business. Look I dont do missions. But i care. why? cause I might want to someday. As it stands I cant see doing any id just be a futal effort. I dont like knowing their is a portion of the game that i cant do if I wanted to. Duno why people limit themselves so much in such an open ended game. So many different things to do but they have decided that this one and only thing in the game is all they want to do and thats all that anyone else should want to do and the game would be better if everyone was doing the same thing they are doing. Do it all man open up the door make some crap mine some stuff haul some stuff go kill someone do a mission get on the trade channels declare war on someone for some unknown reason make a corp whatever. Just quit tryin to make everyone do whatever your doin at that moment.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:41:00 - [71] Logging off isn't killing anything, but it is mighty annoying. Hunting mission runners nets you some of the best loot out there. I highly recommend it. Gank squads, while effective, are boring. WTJ small gang for fighting of other small gangs. And, finally, EVE is most certainly not PvE. I don't know what the OP has in his pipe, but I want some to travel to la-la land. I think I covered the main (rambling) points of the thread. ---------------------------- Buying Sabres. EVEmail or convo me in game!
Deikan Frost Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:45:00 - [72] Originally by: Blacklight Edited by: Blacklight on 06/12/2006 14:55:47 Is there actually a sensible point to the original post? We know Eve and therefore deadspace missions are not instanced. We know that Eve has elements of both PVE and PVP. We know that Eve is very PVP centric in design. We know that not all PVPers just shoot other PVPers. Exactly what is the point you are making? He's making the point that griefers harrass mission runners by purposely scanning and looking for them just cause they are doing missions. This is lame, very lame. And no, I'm not a carebear, but I respect other people's playstyles and will not cause grief on purpose. That's a principle.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:56:00 - [73] Edited by: Lord Frost on 06/12/2006 19:59:27 Edited by: Lord Frost on 06/12/2006 19:59:02 Originally by: Verone Player interaction is key to it's survival, and vital to keep the economy balanced. I can survive solo forever... interaction is not the key, its the added excitment. It no way helps balance anything... its your choice, and if you chose not to do it, you can still survive. Eve was developed to choose your own path. Many have chose to go solo and do quite well I might add. Quote: In three years of playing "Eve is PvE" is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard someone say. truth hurts... you are blinded by your own selfishness. Quote: If you think "PvP" is all about playing unreal tournament and ranking highest on a scoreboard somewhere in Eve, you're completely wrong on the most fundamental level. Yes. that is TRUE PvP... Eve is not that... Eve is far more. It is PvE on a grand scale. Quote: The entire core principle of how Eve's economy is sustained is based on player interaction, player vs player interaction and player vs player combat. You left out player vs environment... where MUCH of everything you probably obtain in Eve came from... period. Without the those players, you'd have a far less, most likely nothing of value. Quote: "PvP" doesn't mean blowing someone up PvE doesn't mean not blowing someone up either. Quote: Every time you undercut a market price, or train an industrial skill to be able to produce faster than someone else, you're PvPing. You're effectively trying to get an advantage over another player. What about running a complex? a mission? mining a belt? mining ice? setting up a POS? ratting in low sec? I'm sure all those are PvP too in your selfish world. Answer me then why someone can say "Logging off ruins PvP"? Its a know fact what pvp is... combat. To try and justify the market as pvp is pathetic. MMORPG (Massive Multiplayer) only means many planyers. It not way contends that its PvP. Quote: Sadly, people who do this never enjoy Eve to it's full extent and never grasp the concept of what it is to be part of a large scale operation inside Eve's world, where with the numbers and determination, achieving anything within game mechanics is possible. You can work with someone, and not be against anyone. There are thousands of corps that PvE with eachother.... again, not a PvP game. Quote: Eve is PvP based, everything you do here has effects on another player, no matter how minute, or how slight they are, whether it be blowing the hell out of someone, or putting a module on the market. Each player's wits are guaged aganist anothers on a daily basis and generally, the smarter more devious come out on top. Eve is PvE based, everything you do here goes back to some result of a PvE interaction... PvP are those competing for that ineraction.
DefJam101 Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 22:14:00 - [74] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: DefJam101 Originally by: Lord Frost Logging of is killing pvp! Ha hahah... deal with it. We all do it... even pvpers. So to say it kills pvp is a hypocritical argument. Saying it kills ganking and griefing, then yes. Your a disgrace -_- hahah... you have no argument for the truth. If someone you are pvping logs off, then why exactly is the point of saying it kills pvp when pvpers are doing it? And I'd be the first to bet if you were in the same situaltion, you'd also log off. You're so hypocritical. Somone has the current advantage looks at the logoff as a problem for his kills, but when its reversed you see it as a way to avoid dying. Common sense my friend... logging off kills ganking and griefing... thats the more acceptable statment. You've been lawyered! If you log off your not a PvPer, your just an idiot who values ISK>Fun. Your an insult to actual PvPers. ***
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:03:00 - [75] Edited by: Verone on 06/12/2006 23:03:52 Originally by: Lord Frost ..stuff.. Looks like you struggled majorly with that one. You're also completely incorrect, all my original points still stand and are watertight. You will realise one day that without player to player interaction,and therefor competition, and thus PvP, there would be no Eve. There would be no economy, no stability in game nothing, and the whole infrastructure of TQ would collapse. In Eve, you use sidetracks of PvE, to eventually PvP, regardless of your defention of the word, which in your case still seems to be "Blowing crap up". You mine in a belt all day to build stuff to put on the market to sell to people, to make profit. - Who do you think buys your stuff and competes with your prices? You NPC missions all day to get good loot and make ISK. You buy a better ship and modules from the market, or sell your loot on the market. - Who do you think you're buying and selling with? Who do you think built your ship? Why didn't you buy that ship that cost 1m more? Was that because someone undercut another guy's price to get a sale? Originally by: Lord Frost Eve is PvE based, everything you do here goes back to some result of a PvE interaction... PvP are those competing for that ineraction. You are still wrong, on so many levels. Everything you do here goes back to the basic need to PvP to do anything in Eve-Online. PvE is you preparing for the eventuality of PvP in some way shape or form. VETO FOR HIRE
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:29:00 - [76] OP - dont drink and post. Wherever you went - here you are.
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:29:00 - [77] Originally by: Verone You will realise one day that without player to player interaction,and therefor competition, and thus PvP, there would be no Eve. There would be no economy, no stability in game nothing, and the whole infrastructure of TQ would collapse. You're streching to try and make a valid point... LOL. We all know players interact, but why do they interact? To compete for the environment. Why do we fight for 0.0 space if we are not going to PvE and utilize that space? The common goal of PvP is to gain more and PvE. You prepare with PvE... and you strive for ultimate PvE... Hence this is PvE. You are very lackluster on your knowledge... shame.
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:32:00 - [78] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Verone You will realise one day that without player to player interaction,and therefor competition, and thus PvP, there would be no Eve. There would be no economy, no stability in game nothing, and the whole infrastructure of TQ would collapse. You're streching to try and make a valid point... LOL. We all know players interact, but why do they interact? To compete for the environment. Why do we fight for 0.0 space if we are not going to PvE and utilize that space? The common goal of PvP is to gain more and PvE. You prepare with PvE... and you strive for ultimate PvE... Hence this is PvE. You are very lackluster on your knowledge... shame. ok .. if this is your definition of PvE .. then please enlighten me what your definition of PvP is. ___________________ EVE: Revelations - The Game for Carebears and Gankbears no more skill needed for PvP - only skillpoints for Large Bubble and CovOps n00b-alts
DefJam101 Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:46:00 - [79] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Verone You will realise one day that without player to player interaction,and therefor competition, and thus PvP, there would be no Eve. There would be no economy, no stability in game nothing, and the whole infrastructure of TQ would collapse. You're streching to try and make a valid point... LOL. We all know players interact, but why do they interact? To compete for the environment. Why do we fight for 0.0 space if we are not going to PvE and utilize that space? The common goal of PvP is to gain more and PvE. You prepare with PvE... and you strive for ultimate PvE... Hence this is PvE. You are very lackluster on your knowledge... shame. PvE supplies PvP. The better PvE, the easier PvP becomes, so your PvP over PvE. It's the circle of life within EVE, PvE to PvP to PvE to PvP...... SO essentially by not PvPing you are breaking the cycle, where as if you just PvP, it's ok because there's always a missionrunner to take your place You are very lackluster on your knowledge... shame. ***
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:47:00 - [80] Originally by: Lord Frost You prepare with PvE... and you strive for ultimate PvE... Hence this is PvE. You are very lackluster on your knowledge... shame. People FIGHT (PvP) to gain control of regions with alliances, to harvest resources there so they can grow larger to FIGHT (PvP) more and gain more space. The whole thing is a never ending cycle... the whole principle and the fuel for evolution and progression? PvP. Without it, Eve stands still. You've obviously had a very bad run in with someone and been ganked or lost something of value to be posting nonsense like this. You seriously need to take off whatever strange glasses or blinders you have on and take a long hard look at Eve and how it works before you come to the fourms with the "waahhhhhh PvP" attitude. VETO FOR HIRE
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:49:00 - [81] Originally by: Lord Frost Originally by: Verone You will realise one day that without player to player interaction,and therefor competition, and thus PvP, there would be no Eve. There would be no economy, no stability in game nothing, and the whole infrastructure of TQ would collapse. You're streching to try and make a valid point... LOL. We all know players interact, but why do they interact? To compete for the environment. Why do we fight for 0.0 space if we are not going to PvE and utilize that space? The common goal of PvP is to gain more and PvE. You prepare with PvE... and you strive for ultimate PvE... Hence this is PvE. You are very lackluster on your knowledge... shame. Fighting other players with gaining PvE resources in mind is PvE, thus PvP is PvE. Nice. You make so little sense it's kind of scary. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Goberth Ludwig The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:52:00 - [82] Ahah comedy gold. CCP please nerf ctrl+q btw o/ - Gob
DefJam101 Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:24:00 - [83] Originally by: Verone Originally by: Lord Frost You prepare with PvE... and you strive for ultimate PvE... Hence this is PvE. You are very lackluster on your knowledge... shame. People FIGHT (PvP) to gain control of regions with alliances, to harvest resources there so they can grow larger to FIGHT (PvP) more and gain more space. The whole thing is a never ending cycle... the whole principle and the fuel for evolution and progression? PvP. Without it, Eve stands still. You've obviously had a very bad run in with someone and been ganked or lost something of value to be posting nonsense like this. You seriously need to take off whatever strange glasses or blinders you have on and take a long hard look at Eve and how it works before you come to the fourms with the "waahhhhhh PvP" attitude. You stole my line, noob ***
Pang Grohl Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:46:00 - [84] hmmm... something to ponder. If I manipulate a PVE mechanic to profit at the expense of other players for the sheer enjoyment of it all without firing a single shot or even seeing another player, does that make me an: exploiter, griever, PVP'er, or carebear BTW this whole thread is pointless because, EVE is what you make of it. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)

Karl Chroimcer Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.12.07 00:52:00 - [85] Im locking this thread because it is turning into a flame war. forum rules \| [email protected]


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