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RtoZ	Posted - 2006.12.07 03:44:00 - [1] Just a quick post and thread to voice my discontent at some of the changes brought with the new EVE expansion and to give a definitive opinion on it, now that I have has some time to mess around with it. Note that I am a carebear, so my opinions here are to be taken from that perspective. I'm more interested in income and return of investment than pvp. So all you pvp'ers (alot of you fighting with your CEO's money) feel free to hate what I stand for. Now, Kali brought some nice new ships, a new map (a bit buggy and wth is up with those white flashes) and a new contract system. It was sold as an expansion of eve gameplay. Then why do I feel more restricted than I did before? 1) The New Contract System: Allthough this appears to be an improvement, whereas the mission escrow system was global, this piece of crap is regional. This is, for all the bells and whistles, a step backwards. I make far less money off escrow deals than I did before, because I have been shut out of most of eve's regions and I don't have the time to browse region by region. It's crap. Sorry, it just is. Make it global and put the contracts on a filterable table like the old escrow and you might be on to something, as it is, my trading life is harder. 2) Sleezy Missions: I am, out of circumstance, a solo player. With a net worth of 3-4b at 8 months old I think I'm doing ok. I could before the update pretty much solo any level 4 mission. Takes me a bit longer, but it pays in isk. Now, after the patch I see sleezy little tricks to reduce mission runner income. Why the have the jumpgates in some missions 80kms apart? A tanked BS only goes 150kms, and you have to wait till the spawns are cleared before making the trip. What a waste of 20 minutes! This is stupid design imo, the only thing it does is force mission runners to waste time. And today I another little sleezy trick, as I was doing the 5th installment of Enemies Abound I notice that the timings on enemy warp-ins greatly reduced, so much so that I had to warp out and scrub the mission, losing another .6 of standings. It's a cheap trick to make mission runners lose isk and highly unmotivating tbh. DO NOT FIX WHAT IS NOT BROKEN. Cure the lag for exp! 3) The New Looting System: This just proves what I have been saying. Before only ships that had loot dropped a can. Tractor beam and cargo to hold, rinse and repeat. Now you get a wreck for every ship and structure, you have to go through all of them to check and the only tool you have is wreck checked or unchecked. It takes twice as long. And no, I'm not gonna waste weeks of training on the rigging skill tree to sit in deepspace running cycles on rubbish. Wrecks are a waste of my gametime and I hate them. I want a system with the elegance of the old system, if there is a loot there is a can, if there isn't loot there is nothing to waste your time on. What motivates me is equipping a new ship, not searching through rubbish! What will your next game be ccp, virtual mmorpg guano farmer? Don't get me wrong. I love EVE. There is nothing like it, and it does feel like being in space, more than any other game I've played. The shardless universe is a thing of beauty, even with the lag. But it suffers from the MMORPG disease, it suffers from gamedesigners more interested in sucking people into boring and repetitive time sinks than actually giving people a good time. And in EVE this sort of game design is not only sleezy, it's stupid. Because you allready have the skill system defining progression, you don't need to screw players over in the details. Oh, and what about a skill planner and scheduler? It would be far easier to make and far more usefull to players than these desguised downgrades passing off as "new content". EVE is a great game, but I fear it is losing direction.RtoZ out.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.07 03:45:00 - [2] All of your complaints have been posted, probably 50 times before. And from what I've heard, CCP is trying to resolve them as we speak. At least give 'em a chance! -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Gobblock Serenity Mining	Posted - 2006.12.07 03:50:00 - [3] i was kind of **ed with the new expansion too. but ds is right, we need to give it a chance. everyone feels the need to jump on the forum and ** and moan (myself included). But if you actually look for dev posts, almost all of the things people whine abuot, are being looked into. This was a MAJOR patch, and obviously there are going to be balancing issues, give it time. i trust that in time the proper tweaks will be done.
RtoZ	Posted - 2006.12.07 03:51:00 - [4] I've been playing for 8 months now, I have given a lot of chances, but I see a disturbing trend in obtrusive game design, which is what this thread is about, more than the actual complaints, which I know have been voiced before. This trend, more than the examples of it, as I am sure there are many more, is what this thread is about. And like I said, eveyrthing in eve has it's progression decided on a skillpoint basis. The actual economy of eve should not be tampered with. Even the richest of eve players have to wait 20 days to do Cruise V. This is why I'm ****ed off.
Gobblock Serenity Mining	Posted - 2006.12.07 03:55:00 - [5] i would hardly call missions a part of the economy. more like isk fountain, those isk dont come from anywhere and maybe, thats a bad thing
Ed Gein Lazy Town	Posted - 2006.12.07 03:57:00 - [6] Having 4 billion from mission running is what needs to be fixed -------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight? The Winner.
Clone Betta	Posted - 2006.12.07 03:58:00 - [7] reguarding: 1) The New Contract System: Allthough this appears to be an improvement, whereas the mission escrow system was global, this piece of crap is regional. This is, for all the bells and whistles, a step backwards. I make far less money off escrow deals than I did before, because I have been shut out of most of eve's regions and I don't have the time to browse region by region. It's crap. Sorry, it just is. Make it global and put the contracts on a filterable table like the old escrow and you might be on to something, as it is, my trading life is harder. open Contracts. Under "view" select a different region, click on the get contracts button. right click on one you like, select the place bid option. that works doesent it?. under show more options you can also sort each page by simple view.
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2006.12.07 04:03:00 - [8] can i have your stuff? 'cause with that much whinage (pointless whinage at that) perhaps it's best for you to end that 8 month career and barn up that high horse of yours? ---- new escrow (contract) rocks! i love it. if i need something i find it! simple as that. sleazy missions? (yes its spelled SLEAZY)... what are you smoking? us matari have had the really long gates forever and you know what, it's never been a problem (albeit we go a whole 20m/s faster than you it seems...) as for the timer having been reduced - you could've simply called for help in local (plenty of people offer their help or are glad to help out those in need) rather than turn down the mission - welcome to eve, MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE... see a trend there? yea it means - not just solo - the new looting system is the same as before with a twist, you dont wanna make extra money while salvaging then fine, simply look and leave the wrecks. or hire a noob to follow you around and get rich of your wrecks. simple as that. its not like they took away the loot that dropped before and replaced it entirely with wrecks. you can still loot just like before ffs. now either you give me your stuff or take this cheese with your whine and return to your missions. game is fine and hardly any different than before, adapt or die.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader The Pentagram	Posted - 2006.12.07 04:14:00 - [9] didnt check out any missions since the patch.. but 100km gates sound aweful -.- also hate the wrecks/contracts btw..
RtoZ	Posted - 2006.12.07 04:16:00 - [10] Spelling corrected (I am not from an english speaking country btw). Just to answer a few things: 4b net worth (not liquid isk) is not that hard to get in 8 months if you have put a few hours into the game, have a basic grasp of economics and play a few hours a few days a week. People complaining that people like me have too much money probably are just not good with their own isk or spend too much time getting blown up. It is possible to make much more isk than I have. And what about the lucky ones? People that without doing crap get a T2 BPO land on their lap? THIS is what is wrong with the game. What I have is legitimate, and trust me, I've lost hundreds of millions to lag, to bugs and yes, to my own inexperience. The fact that some people run off into low sec to live the life of a warrior dosen't put them in a position to criticize my income. Sorry. And no, I'm not leaving EVE, not yet. I have longer term goals in eve gameplay which I would like to reach, allthough if ccp keep the current trend, sooner or later I may yet leave for greener pastures. Oh, and as for the contract system, yes, I know I have access to all the regions, but it is not a working tool. With the old mission escrow system there was an MS Access like database table, data was easy to get at. The point about this thread is not that things cannot be done, it is that now it takes longer to do them. I do not like to waste my time, not so much my subscription, which is fixed, but my real world time, which this patch makes less profitable ingame. It is a step backwards.
Slimo	Posted - 2006.12.07 04:43:00 - [11] My first impressions of this new patch, which by the way is only installment 1 of 3, is favorable. Some things work out good for me such as warp to 0 others like nerf on stabs worried me at first. CCP are never going to please everyone all of the time, if you work out a way can you tell me so that I can play eve all day everyday and please the other half, my boss and creditors! For me though this patch gives eve more realism. Who ever heard of blown up spaceships disappearing into thin air just leaving a neat little cargo container behind! Now the contracts system I haven't really looked into but again it's all about realism, How many shops/business's on earth sell their products everywhere on earth, a few big corps granted but the majority within their own continent, country even state/county or towm! Translate that to Eve and regional markets make sense to me. Missions should be treated in my mind at least as a challenge not as a process to generate money. If your just doing missions time and time again that you have done so many times before that you know what your up against and from where and when then that just reminds me of the kind of grinding work required by all the other mmorpg's. The beauty of eve at least to me is it's depth! I can go on and in more depth but it's now nearly 5am I've been up 26hrs already and have another 5hrs of work before I can go home and play eve for an hour but most importantly I'd better do some work! Slim (yawn)
Krakkan	Posted - 2006.12.07 04:54:00 - [12] its amazing how mutch isk some get from missions, myself being a casual player doing perhaps 1-2 missions now and then dont get mutch at all. granted its in high-sec since i hardly have any agents at all in low-sec, but is it realy that big difference? i seem to always get the long and hard missions taking a few hours, and being casual and all i cant be ared to do 50 of them in a day.. and switched race i dont have the best of skills with my new bs yet sure its 8months, so i have probably made a couple of billions during my playtime, but how can anyone keep grinding and not spend isk for 8 months? got 100mill and max has been like 300-400 something, i dont have faction stuff, i dont have any uber ship just 2 domis and a tempest that resently blew up so.. more isk sinks into the game yeah? i hope so, atleast so people cant save up for months and then make a big hole in the market.. i go and have fun when i got isk over, pvp and stuff.. whats the point grinding missions that take 1-3+ hours and you get 5-10mill once a day and saving it all up for months? not all mission grinders are billioners... and i dont like people "bragging" how mutch isk they have from grinding missions because they havent played the game for months(your not playing, your grinding!) all over the forums, it hurts me since i use my isk i get like your supposed to and its pain getting it. mission nerf is not far when so many claim to get billions so easy.. i play for fun not for grinding, when/if i cant have fun whats the point of playing? grinding isk for 8 months... gees Quote:* tuxford: AT LEAST ITS SPEELED CORRECTLY tuxford: spelled* Oveur: rofl
Jirad TiSalver Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.07 04:57:00 - [13] I agree with the above poster. All in all i like the content. Sure i suffered the nerf bat once or twice (ECM nerf). I am happy to see the contract system not global and skill based. It gives the regions more significance. I for one hope that the contract system stays, for the most part, as it is. Good job CCP!
Tobizuru Minmatar Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.07 04:59:00 - [14] Originally by: RtoZ Just a quick post and thread to voice my discontent at some of the changes brought with the new EVE expansion Please.......No More...... Spontaneously Combust -------------------- If I only had a Face... :'(
Managalar Gallente Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.07 05:02:00 - [15] I must agree with Rtoz on this, mission running needs to be more profitable. I know there are some people who think missions shouldn't be profitable. I also know that inflation needs to be controlled. I also realize a need exists to distribute players across the gaming universe and populate the various game activities. Regardless, there needs to be missions to add an action component to Eve life for players who are not up to the challenge of 0.0 (I cite myself because I always fail* to live profitably in 0.0). I bleed isk in 0.0 for a few months, then I return to empire and run missions to recover my losses. Every time that cycle repeats, it takes me longer and longer to get back out to 0.0 because of decreased mission profits. [à.Rtoz has spent some long hours running missions to acquire that kind of isk.] [*I may not be the best pod pilot because I always loose isk in 0.0, but IÆd rather think of it in terms dedication. IÆm not exactly hardcore, but I love EVE.] =======Setenta======= ======= Xelas =======
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.07 05:09:00 - [16] Originally by: Managalar Regardless, there needs to be missions to add an action component to Eve life for players who are not up to the challenge of 0.0 (I cite myself because I always fail** to live profitably in 0.0). I bleed isk in 0.0 for a few months, then I return to empire and run missions to recover my losses. Every time that cycle repeats, it takes me longer and longer to get back out to 0.0 because of decreased mission profits. [à.Rtoz has spent some long hours running missions to acquire that kind of isk.] [*I may not be the best pod pilot because I always loose isk in 0.0, but IÆd rather think of it in terms dedication. IÆm not exactly hardcore, but I love EVE.] This sound more like something is wrong with 0.0, not with missions tbh. You are meant to make a living in 0.0, not to go to 0.0 to pvp, go back to empire to earn isk with missions, go back to 0.0 to pvp etc. Makes no sense. You should be able to fund your pvp in 0.0. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Krakkan	Posted - 2006.12.07 05:10:00 - [17] i agree to some the others said... but whats realy ruening things is the fact that people do spend so mutch time getting fat.. their not using the isk and bam the market blows, meanwhile others suffers because of players gathering isk and getting "fat" Quote: tuxford: AT LEAST ITS SPEELED CORRECTLY tuxford: spelled* Oveur: rofl
mafesto Minmatar Luna Tech Manufacturing Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 05:48:00 - [18] Originally by: RtoZ Spelling corrected (I am not from an english speaking country btw). Just to answer a few things: 4b net worth (not liquid isk) is not that hard to get in 8 months if you have put a few hours into the game, have a basic grasp of economics and play a few hours a few days a week. People complaining that people like me have too much money probably are just not good with their own isk or spend too much time getting blown up. It is possible to make much more isk than I have. And what about the lucky ones? People that without doing crap get a T2 BPO land on their lap? THIS is what is wrong with the game. What I have is legitimate, and trust me, I've lost hundreds of millions to lag, to bugs and yes, to my own inexperience. The fact that some people run off into low sec to live the life of a warrior dosen't put them in a position to criticize my income. Sorry. And no, I'm not leaving EVE, not yet. I have longer term goals in eve gameplay which I would like to reach, allthough if ccp keep the current trend, sooner or later I may yet leave for greener pastures. awesome post, post of the year
Redpants Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2006.12.07 06:14:00 - [19] Why should you be able to know if theres loot in a wreck or not? Does your ship or pod have a crystal ball in it and it can see if the wrecks have anything worth taking before you fly over there and physicly inspect? To be able to know which wrecks dropped loot is not realistic and a tad bit too video gamish for what's supposed to be going on in game with ships and equipment in a real world. _____________________________________________________________________ "My once immaculate white pants are now stained from the weak and innocent. I don't wear red."
Ngwee Gallente 7 SAI	Posted - 2006.12.07 06:57:00 - [20] HeHe - Hes talking about realism in a space simulation game?
Tobizuru Minmatar Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.07 07:12:00 - [21] Originally by: Ngwee HeHe - Hes talking about realism in a space simulation game? This...isn't real?! -------------------- If I only had a Face... :'(
Kishara SalSolo Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2006.12.07 08:50:00 - [22] No, it's not real but some of us are roleplayers and have different views on the game. For me the game is not about getting isk or blowing other players up...for me it's immersion in a different kind of universe. The reason I was attracted to Eve was that this game was quite thought through when talking about the game universe...it had the properties a roleplayer appreciates ..a smooth feel that allows a rolpelayer to concentrate on our char. and not make excuses because there is gaps in the universe. In my humble opinion Revelations is a major step upward for roleplayers as it adresses some of the gaps Eve has. Yes, wrecks are timeconsuming but instead of having to make up some weird story why the cargocontainers pop up I can now accept it as a integrated part of the Eve universe. My entire point is that a huge game like this will NEVER please everybody .. it simply depends on what kind of view you have on the game. I have played several MMOG and so far Eve and DAOC are the 2 games I like most as a roleplayer. If you look at Eve from a "solo player" view or from a PvP view there is always going to be elements that does not fit into that categori or even restricts it...but that is because Eve tries to be a complete universe...with it's joys and sorrows.
DOGNOSH Minmatar SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2006.12.07 08:57:00 - [23] Originally by: RtoZ 2)blah blah so much so that I had to warp out and scrub the mission, losing another .6 of standings. blah blah hi,genuine question why did you lose mission just for warping out? (I have never done that one but on the others I have done I have been given days to do it in)
Laythun Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.07 09:35:00 - [24] Originally by: Managalar I must agree with Rtoz on this, mission running needs to be more profitable*. You've provided no reason why. Furthermore, they shouldnt be more profitable, they should be less profitable or considerably more difficult. Missions, especially lvl 4's serve no purpose but to appease the carebear masses who dont want to participate in real eve life. Its a pure and simple isk fountain. I really hope CCP sort them out, either reduce the rewards or make them more difficult. CEI's own Undercover Brother It's great being Amarr, aint it?Ö
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.07 09:42:00 - [25] Originally by: DOGNOSH Originally by: RtoZ 2)blah blah so much so that I had to warp out and scrub the mission, losing another .6 of standings. blah blah hi,genuine question why did you lose mission just for warping out? (I have never done that one but on the others I have done I have been given days to do it in) Reinforcements come in waves after some time. They wont leave. When you come into the area later you might just get creamed over the adjacent systems. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Azure Eyes Minmatar	Posted - 2006.12.07 09:47:00 - [26] I wonder how many times I have to read posts about how people use missions to fund PvP before I can stop reading posts about how people doing missions are stupid 'bears that don't do PvP. {IMG}insert signature image{/IMG}
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 09:52:00 - [27] Originally by: Laythun You've provided no reason why. And you've not demonstrated that they are. I've been playing for well over a year now and have amassed a grand total of 500million ISk through my limited play time. This gives me enough to afford losing a ship in missions, buy the cocasional T2 vessel and have a war chest for PvP activities. The people who accrue billions from missions are the exception not the rule. Originally by: Laythun Furthermore, they shouldnt be more profitable, they should be less profitable or considerably more difficult. Less profitable, no. Right now the amount you get from missions is reasonable for the time investment. Its far, far, far less than people make out in 0.0. Increasing the mission difficult, but not the time investment, has some appeal though. Unfortunately it seems that everytime a tough mission is released, people whine and Originally by: Laythun Missions, especially lvl 4's serve no purpose but to appease the carebear masses who dont want to participate in real eve life. Other than a matter of opinion, what is "real eve life," because I can't honestly my experience or enjoyment of the game changes much between high sec mission running and being in 0.0. I still interact with people. Originally by: Laythun Its a pure and simple isk fountain. I really hope CCP sort them out, either reduce the rewards or make them more difficult. I really don't understand why you, or anyone, has a problem with mission runners. They enjoy the game the way they play and you enjoy the game the way you play. What is the problem? Does it really bother your ego so much that there are players who don't want to get into fights, who are making isk, just so can they enjoy the game? Oh noes, people are enjoying teh game! Nerf them! This said, more difficult missions would be welcome.
Toppos Dannecopanus	Posted - 2006.12.07 10:14:00 - [28] I'm sorry to say this... (beeing mission runner myself...) Having 3-4b after 8 months doing just missions AND not beeing able to solo missions and scrub 'em - needs to be fixed ! I got a fix solution... For you: Get more skills... For CCP: Keep it up...
Xaroth Brook Minmatar Doomcraft	Posted - 2006.12.07 10:22:00 - [29] Lets call CCP to make them nerf mission runners as well then... My wallet is at 150m and I'm pondering on buying a new shiny HAC soon... which would cost me double than I have at this point.. My character is 2 months older than yours is.. and somehow you've managed to obtain Billions and Billions of ISK. Yes, please, boost people like you more. (on a side note, battleships go 150 meters a second, not kilometers ) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Xaroth Brook Brainiac of Doomcraft
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 10:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Toppos Dannecopanus Having 3-4b after 8 months doing just missions AND not beeing able to solo missions and scrub 'em - needs to be fixed ! And how much time do you spend playing Eve and how much of that do you spend doing missions? Because I've not spent my whole time running missions. Ship losses through PvP eat into funds quite nicely and a lot of time is spent doing stuff that while fun, doesn't earn me much money. Right now you seem to be saying that missions need fixing because some players play Eve an obsessive amount and do nothing but run missions. Sounds to me missions aren't actually the problem here.

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