But the Tengu and all other T3's are out EWared by Recons. They are in most cases out DPS'd by HACs (or at least can't apply as well). The fits like an AC Loki where they win the DPS battle they lose the tracking and range battle. Their tanks are impressive, but I can get just as good a tank from a Command Ship. And their niche really is PVE and Nullified BSery.

Thats not overpowered. Hacs are great. I would much rather have a zealot than a laser legion, I would much rather have a Vigilant than a Proti unless I am in a WH. I would much rather have an Orthrus than a Tengu.

The blanket statement that T3 outdoes all the T2 cruisers is just plain false. Yes a Neut legion is the only way to have tank AND neut... but you sacrifice cost/skills/mobility to get there.

T2 cruisers all tend to have very focused bonuses. Recons for example, or Logis. All much better at those roles than T3s. If you're thinking about HACs, T3s aren't as price-efficient as them.

BCs? Come on. Comparing T1 to T3 is frankly silly, and again, price is an important balancing point.

Command ships? All command ships are 50% more effective at boosting than T3s. T3s are a little more flexible with what they boost and can covops cloak, but cannot hope to really bricktank and boost anywhere nearly as effectively as a command ship. And non-boosting command ships are also much scarier in combat.

Battleships in tank? Definitely not Marauders, which are a lower tech level - and really only the Proteus can rival a BS in terms of EHP, and that setup moves pretty much like a battleship too, without access to large guns.

Should the Tengu be nerfed?

I really do think they should remain better than T2 combat ships simply due to their cost - they are not flexible anywhere except the fitting screen. Making them weaker would mean you'd be paying more for an inferior ship that you could refit to another role once you realize how terrible it is, only to discover the same thing.

I'm looking at a legion here with 80k ehp, same neuting power as as a pilgrim, decent firepower, cov cloak, nullified and is cap stable with everything running including the prop mod. So, why would I choose to fly a pilgrim that has less than half the tank, isn't cap stable, same neuting power and 15 more dps from a destructible weapon system?

Because a Pilgrim has a larger drone bay, faster align time, faster warp time, has 2x the neut range and can fit tracking disrupts that actually matter.

Are you seriously that dense? You don't think a 2x cheaper non-skill killing hull that has 2x the neut range isn't better?

TD don't help much vs anything cruiser sized or that has drones and near everyone rats in an Ishtar so that's irrelevant, 2x range also doesn't mean much given that you mostly want to scram/web your target.

Also as always price means nothing, the pilgrim is more or less pointless as is the zealot as the legion does both jobs better.

I'm looking at a legion here with 80k ehp, same neuting power as as a pilgrim, decent firepower, cov cloak, nullified and is cap stable with everything running including the prop mod. So, why would I choose to fly a pilgrim that has less than half the tank, isn't cap stable, same neuting power and 15 more dps from a destructible weapon system?

Not as important as a ship class above a cruisers being totally invalidated by 4 overpowered cruisers.

Yet not single fleet uses them over boosting t3s. Turns out, getting an uncatchable booster into system and into an off grid safe is the best tank of all.

Railgu fleet has the same EHP as most battleship doctrines.

Yeah but a nullified Legion that has Lasers and Neuts is never ever going to be able to stay inside Web/Scram range against anything.

And a single tackle can hold your Legion, costing well over 500mil and 4 days of training, as long as it wants because you are just an EHP brick that has no range command.

The Pilgrim is better at hit and run Neuting, period. Now Neut Legions in small gang, yeah sure. Or with logi, great.

But the Pilgrim is still far more agile, cheaper, range commanding and it's weapons still fight even when Ewared to hell and back.

The same reason you don't want to fight a drone boat, is the same reason a drone boat works. The range of the neuts is just icing on the cake.

Which is why you decloak on top of your target. I have flown much more expensive toys into point range, this line of argument holds zero merit.

Are you seriously saying you don't see the advantages of a fast neuting boat with longer range than other neuts?

Simple, it doesn't have the range bonuses, costs a whole lot more, has a longer decloak delay, and nets you SP loss on death while being an EWAR boat. It's also probably slower, but I don't know what fit you're looking at.

Except they aren't, except in your head.

Oh FFS, I've seen command ships boosting fleets since before they rebalanced the boosting percents. Maybe in your corner of space and with your particular brand of warfare, but there are definite advantages to a boosting command ship.

With comparable tracking to a rail megathron and low DPS.

Are you seriously saying you don't see the advantages of a fast neuting boat with longer range than other neuts?

Yep, you heard it here folks, med rails track as well as 425s...

Are you seriously saying you don't see the advantages of a fast neuting boat with longer range than other neuts?

Actually you are a moron. At the same range a 425 on a mega does .022 and a 250 on a Tengu does .026

And the Mega far out DPS's the Tengu.

So yeah. What were you saying?

It doesn't matter what he sees or doesn't. He made the blanket statement that all T3 are better than all T2 cruisers.

We just showed him why they aren't and he countered with 4 changes of the goal post to continue his fallacy. There is no tank against that kind of ignorance.

The most common neuting fit boat currently used is the statious, a ship with no bonuses for the weapon system.

When you are solo hunting what is better?

A ship with 25km neuts, cov ops and drones or a ship with over twice as much ehp, nullified, cov ops and cap stable?

The one that can take on the Stratios and survive... the Pilgrim.

The Legion is always inside neut range, and can't turn off the Stratios DPS. It also might have a problem tracking the Strat if it is AB fit because it will be doing circles around your MWD Legion that is webbed with the prop off.

Actually you are a moron. At the same range a 425 on a mega does .022 and a 250 on a Tengu does .026

And the Mega far out DPS's the Tengu.

So yeah. What were you saying?

Did, did he just say a Pilgrim beats a Stratios, and try to say that a Legion doesn't? Did I seriously just read that?

Did, did he just say a Pilgrim beats a Stratios, and try to say that a Legion doesn't? Did I seriously just read that?

I will forgive you guys because you aren't wormholers... but you should see the videos us real pvpers post, the Strat vs Tengu, Strat vs Drake, Strat vs Brutix and vexor...

Then you have the whole, Strat can run away any time it wants because you are slow boating in your Legion fit for Baltecs doom, while shooting at it's toughest resists on an already good buffer hull.

Thank god people actually look at the numbers instead of regurgitating what they've been fed.

Do me a favor, and tell me which C-level of which hole type you're fighting in, so I can do a fair comparison. I am sure we both remember that hilarious Legion setup that used Rapid Lights to play to every single strength of a Wolf-Rayet.

If only you weren't picking a fight with someone who has flown a 425 megathron in railgun fleets for years.

I can assure you, the med rails track better.

If only you weren't picking a fight with someone who has flown a 425 megathron in railgun fleets for years.

I can assure you, the med rails track better.