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Zed Nash	Posted - 2006.12.08 02:49:00 - [1] A question to those lowsec runners who moved to highsec to avoid the bloodbath.......... CCP has announced a "fix" for probing out deadspace missions in the scheduled 12/13 patch. My question to you is: What will CCP have to implement to get you to return to lowsec for all your mission-running needs? This isn't a "PvP vs non-PvP" debate, if you don't run missions you have no reason to post here. "Maya Rkell is my online stalker."
Zacha Nioto	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:24:00 - [2] As a mission runner, I believe it should take longer, and the mission runner should have better opportunities to detect that he is being probed. Perhaps leave some kind of trace in space that can be picked up with a special module, or even the regular scanner if there is a random chance that the trace will be visible and/or for how long it will remain in space. As a prober who wasn't too satisfied with the new "it's so simple I can't believe it's probing" system, I believe that there should be at least some player skills (as opposed to character skills) necessary, without being the total PITA it was pre-Revelations. I wouldn't be entirely against some more skills to affect probing, or at least how effectively you can hide your probing attempt from the probee. Oh, I probably also should add that this is mostly directed at probing out mission runners. Even with the system as it looks today, it's still too hard to probe someone that has time to use his scanner to actively look for signs of probing. Tbh, I wouldn't mind the introduction of "covert probes" that doesn't show up on scanner and doesn't require a covert.ops. to uncloak when you drop them, if it was balanced properly by perhaps increasing the scan time, decreasing the strength and increasing the scan deviation. Oh, and of course not be able to find ships in deadspaces.
Contralto Binary Fringe inc	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:25:00 - [3] I left my 0.3 mission hub after 6 months intensive and profitable mission running and one big loss at a gate gank while on a mission. I foresaw the present situation 2 months ago when the new probe system was announced. I decided to move out then and find alternate employment rather than be frustrated after the patch. I would consider going back if DS gates were only open to key holders and the keys were issued by the agents. If the "Greifers" were fast they could still be camping the gate by the time I got there but thats up to me to be faster.
Zacha Nioto	Posted - 2006.12.08 04:04:00 - [4] Originally by: Contralto I left my 0.3 mission hub after 6 months intensive and profitable mission running and one big loss at a gate gank while on a mission. I foresaw the present situation 2 months ago when the new probe system was announced. I decided to move out then and find alternate employment rather than be frustrated after the patch. I would consider going back if DS gates were only open to key holders and the keys were issued by the agents. Woohoo, completele safety for mission runners in low-sec 4tw! \o/ ... or not. Originally by: Contralto If the "Greifers" were fast they could still be camping the gate by the time I got there but thats up to me to be faster. I'm pretty sure it's not possible to probe out anything in the deadspace itself, including the gate leading into it. So no, they can't come to your mission gate before you do.
Esaka Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.08 04:09:00 - [5] Probing would have to revert back to nearly pre-revelation state, as in alot more time consuming and harder to do. -------------------------------------- Agent & Mission-Info: http://www.eveinfo.com Evewide Market-Info: http://eve-central.com/
Mik Nostrebor Minmatar ORKS	Posted - 2006.12.08 04:31:00 - [6] How about looking at the problem from a different angle. If there are improved probes should there not be improved probe defences? Some ideas: 1. Signature scrambling - fit a mid slot mod that has a scramble strength to defeat the weaker probes. Make the pirate have to probe several times in order to find you. This unit migh have the added bonus of indentifying who is probing in your area? 2. Ghost probes - if they can launch probes to find you, you should be able to launch probes to imitate your signatue and send them out around your system as decoys. 3. Glitter bombs - A simple device that sends out metallic sand to diffuse and confuse the resolution/accuracy of probes. Makes it easier to find you but impossible to warp to 0 on you but make them warp in at 0-300 km from you. OK so they could get you on their overview and then warp in but at least you have the chance to run. 4. Make a starship out of wood so it has 0 signature to probes....lololol (remember the Mosquito the brits made in the 1940's) Think back over the old WW2 radar and sonar warfare tactics. Mik AUSSIE AND KIWI EVE Fansite
Contralto Binary Fringe inc	Posted - 2006.12.08 04:53:00 - [7] Originally by: Zacha Nioto Originally by: Contralto If the "Greifers" were fast they could still be camping the gate by the time I got there but thats up to me to be faster. I'm pretty sure it's not possible to probe out anything in the deadspace itself, including the gate leading into it. So no, they can't come to your mission gate before you do. They can probe the assembled mission rats. Old probes could do that. OP asked what would make me return to low sec mission running and I gave my answer, your comment was superfluous! I want safety from other players interfering in my mission yes, but Im happy to have 50 or 60 angry mission rats aggro me, after all thats why im there.
Takanohana Deep Space Explorers	Posted - 2006.12.08 05:46:00 - [8] Originally by: Mik Nostrebor 4. Make a starship out of wood so it has 0 signature to probes....lololol (remember the Mosquito the brits made in the 1940's) Minnie ships are made of rust colored duct tape you know....
exarienne	Posted - 2006.12.08 07:42:00 - [9] I would like to change the odds only. Now i feel like a pirate has over 99% chance of killing mission runner in mission. Missions are difficult enough without pirates at all so i think it should be under 5% or less, no matter how it will be accomplished. Additional modules are hard to balance solution imho as they are taking some other equipment out. Locking gates is too much. It might be partial solution, even locking allies out of some missions for ballance. Lower chance /higher skill reqs/ longer time of deadspace probing is probably best option as it lowers other problems like stealing mission critical loot or mass aggro. Originally by: Leandro Salazar Now I really don't mind being ganked when I am careless, but I DO mind being forced to play the gank or be ganked game every waking moment
Willo Vasquez Gallente Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.12.08 07:58:00 - [10] Having lost 3 domi's in the space of a week to mission 'invaders' while running level 4's, I've experienced the downside of the new probing system, and it's currently little more than a license to grief. I don't expect total security in lowsec, but when I'm in a mission, I don't want uninvited guests, the only players I want showing up are people I invite. Mission DS area's should be cloaked completely from probes, Deadspace should be that - DEAD space, an area that isn't detectable. Other option is to make an deployable cloak generator and launcher, that cloaks the DS gate from probes for a time, maybe half an hour or an hour. To the people that will scream 'carebear' and 'whiner' to this post, I have one thing to say - bite me. I'm not here for your entertainment, I'm here for my own reasons, and if you've got a well setup bubbled gate camp, or you find me out belt ratting of mining in lowsec, then you go ahead and fire if you want to, and take your chances that I'm ready (or not) for you. Probing down my mission and jumping in when I'm tanking numerous other ships, and then taking me out is just cowardice, it's a cheap shot, nothing more. The current probing system has made lowsec mission running like grenading fish in a barrel, with mission runners being the fish.
Horst Schlemmer	Posted - 2006.12.08 09:08:00 - [11] I found my solution Accounts = cancelled I dont want to play on something where i have to live with the thought that even after years of gameplay from one day to another the whole game is broken for the way i like to play, makes it senseless. The missing foresight in developing and releasing patches like this makes me just mad. have fun bye eve
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Mik Nostrebor How about looking at the problem from a different angle. If there are improved probes should there not be improved probe defences? Some ideas: 1. Signature scrambling - fit a mid slot mod that has a scramble strength to defeat the weaker probes. Make the pirate have to probe several times in order to find you. This unit migh have the added bonus of indentifying who is probing in your area? 2. Ghost probes - if they can launch probes to find you, you should be able to launch probes to imitate your signatue and send them out around your system as decoys. 3. Glitter bombs - A simple device that sends out metallic sand to diffuse and confuse the resolution/accuracy of probes. Makes it easier to find you but impossible to warp to 0 on you but make them warp in at 0-300 km from you. OK so they could get you on their overview and then warp in but at least you have the chance to run. 4. Make a starship out of wood so it has 0 signature to probes....lololol (remember the Mosquito the brits made in the 1940's) Think back over the old WW2 radar and sonar warfare tactics. Mik That won't work, on the harder missions (which are also the ones subjecting you to the gankbears the longest) you need every slot for your PvE fitting. What I want to see is reverting to almost pre-Kali probing, which means min scan deviations so people have to use a succession of probes instead of just one to get a pinpoint result, and a moderate nerf to recon launcher scan times. This would mean just like before Kali you could reliably scan for probes again and get ample warning if you do it dilligently enough, but the probers would not have to deal with the stupid disc issue anymore and could scan with just one probe. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Lord WarATron Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:31:00 - [13] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/12/2006 11:32:05 Originally by: Zacha Nioto Woohoo, completele safety for mission runners in low-sec 4tw! \o/ ... or not. Since there is already complete safety of running complex's in 0.0 due to the keys, I can see mission runners migrating there or wanting a simaler change. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Peter Stuyvesant Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:37:00 - [14] Originally by: Horst Schlemmer I found my solution Accounts = cancelled lol, knee-jerk reaction ftw, even after that news item was posted...sigh... Not even gonna give CCP a chance to tweak things? Then you don't deserve to play this great game. Cya.
Saltire System-Lords E N I G M A	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:46:00 - [15] bloody carebears, this is a multiplayer game so integrate or quit, yes probing is far far to easy, only nerfs needed are a move of l4's to lowsec and raise the time it takes to probe someone. or heres an idea! get some friends into the mission with you, secure a profitable lowsec l4 system and just kill -10s before they can harm you, jeez going to highsec is not the answer.
Katarine Whip	Posted - 2006.12.08 12:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Horst Schlemmer I found my solution Accounts = cancelled I dont want to play on something where i have to live with the thought that even after years of gameplay from one day to another the whole game is broken for the way i like to play, makes it senseless. The missing foresight in developing and releasing patches like this makes me just mad. have fun bye eve I did the same with my two accounts.
Nardon Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.08 12:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Saltire bloody carebears, this is a multiplayer game so integrate or quit, yes probing is far far to easy, only nerfs needed are a move of l4's to lowsec and raise the time it takes to probe someone. or heres an idea! get some friends into the mission with you, secure a profitable lowsec l4 system and just kill -10s before they can harm you, jeez going to highsec is not the answer. Of course it is. It just might not be the answer you'd like to hear. Cry me a river.
andronymous	Posted - 2006.12.08 12:57:00 - [18] I run missions and I'm all for easy scanning, particularly with exploration, I believe it can add a lot of interesting gameplay. Just seems like CCP need to make it harder (not impossible) to hunt down mission runners. I run missions in low sec because the rewards are better but also because it is a more involved experience having to think about factors external to the mission. After a while mission running without risk gets dull - the risk for mission runners just needs balancing. 1. Less accurate scanning of deadspace and mission areas (if it interferes with MWD it can screw up scanners!) 2. A 'Your Being Scanned' warning - means you have to be alert at all times because 60 secs later your going to get ganked. 3. Don't change it just make the rewards match the risk - T2 BPO or faction drops anyone! ....Some of my ideas Until they fix it I'm staying in high sec doing Cosmos.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader The Pentagram	Posted - 2006.12.08 13:30:00 - [19] i think starting running missions in 0.0 (for guristas) chances are realy smal to get ganked there (new local ftw!).. revards are insane:)
exarienne	Posted - 2006.12.08 13:38:00 - [20] I cancelled my subscription few hours before they announced they are thinkin how to fix it. I did it mostly becouse there was no reaction from ccp for some two weeks after they made this mistake. I had 6 month subscription so i hope it will be fixed before my account will be really suspended, as i do not want to leave eve (in such case my account suspension will have no effect except sending them direct message). Originally by: Leandro Salazar Now I really don't mind being ganked when I am careless, but I DO mind being forced to play the gank or be ganked game every waking moment
Slevin Kalebra	Posted - 2006.12.08 13:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Mik Nostrebor How about looking at the problem from a different angle. If there are improved probes should there not be improved probe defences? Some ideas: 1. Signature scrambling - fit a mid slot mod that has a scramble strength to defeat the weaker probes. Make the pirate have to probe several times in order to find you. This unit migh have the added bonus of indentifying who is probing in your area? 2. Ghost probes - if they can launch probes to find you, you should be able to launch probes to imitate your signatue and send them out around your system as decoys. 3. Glitter bombs - A simple device that sends out metallic sand to diffuse and confuse the resolution/accuracy of probes. Makes it easier to find you but impossible to warp to 0 on you but make them warp in at 0-300 km from you. OK so they could get you on their overview and then warp in but at least you have the chance to run. 4. Make a starship out of wood so it has 0 signature to probes....lololol (remember the Mosquito the brits made in the 1940's) I'm not sure about #4 (there's the whole business of space being a vacuum) but the others are reasonable suggestions. I already posted something along the lines of the Sig Scrambler (although my idea was to have a low-slot module which could replace the now useless (for mission running at least) WCS. Deploying decoy probes that cause several false probe readings for a period of time (e.g a 30 minute duration) would be interesting... if you have several mission runners in the same system all deploying 5 or 6 'crybabies' (name 'borrowed' from Firefly) it might get a bit frustrating for the pirates though. They'd have to be quite expensive and have a fairly low deployment rate.
Sendraks TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:02:00 - [22] Originally by: Zed Nash My question to you is: What will CCP have to implement to get you to return to lowsec for all your mission-running needs? Two things. 1) Make it harder to find mission runners with probes, but not as hard as it was pre-Kali. 2) Treble the ISK and LP rewards for Low Sec missions. I'd be quite happy to spend an entire evening, ****ing about a system trying to avoid pirates while trying to do a mission if I knew I was going to get a decent payout. Not only that, but knowing I'd get more ISK would mean I'd be more inclined to put better fittings on my ship, so if I am nailed by a gate camp or group of pirates, there is more in it for them.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:21:00 - [23] They really can't up the rewards to levels that match the risk under the new probing. That would make people who can do missions with little pirate traffic (be it due to odd times or a system out in the boonies) just filthy rich. So they have to reign the risk back in. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:44:00 - [24] You ain't saying that the 'invite only' complexes have to be changed to 'free for all'? --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Jaded	Posted - 2006.12.08 17:34:00 - [25] Edited by: Jaded on 08/12/2006 17:35:17 Originally by: Zed Nash A question to those lowsec runners who moved to highsec to avoid the bloodbath.......... CCP has announced a "fix" for probing out deadspace missions in the scheduled 12/13 patch. My question to you is: What will CCP have to implement to get you to return to lowsec for all your mission-running needs? Don't think I'm ever going back to low sec. Getting assaulted by PKs while you're already knee-deep in pve just isn't an option, no matter how 'long' it takes them to find you.. IMO there's enough risk from just moving to and from missions in a pve fitted ship. Risk vs. reward is better for the PKs and they're not even in it for profit. I'll just stay in empire for now, or move to 0.0 if I can free up more time for EvE.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.12.08 17:48:00 - [26] I think the cats out of the bag - if you can kill people in deadspace its going to happen and it will happen a lot now. Theres no way to fix it. A timer wont work - lvl 4s just take to long. You will always die if they go that route. The problem is with the faction loss you cant afford to fail missions often and there no way to stop that. Wherever you went - here you are.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.12.08 17:51:00 - [27] There is one way I would go back. Increase the rewards(including faction) by about 10 times but only have the bonus apply if you do it in groups. You would still have to lengthen the scan times. Wherever you went - here you are.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:08:00 - [28] Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Zed Nash My question to you is: What will CCP have to implement to get you to return to lowsec for all your mission-running needs? Two things. 1) Make it harder to find mission runners with probes, but not as hard as it was pre-Kali. 2) Treble the ISK and LP rewards for Low Sec missions. I'd be quite happy to spend an entire evening, ****ing about a system trying to avoid pirates while trying to do a mission if I knew I was going to get a decent payout. Not only that, but knowing I'd get more ISK would mean I'd be more inclined to put better fittings on my ship, so if I am nailed by a gate camp or group of pirates, there is more in it for them. I don't see that working...pirates will just treble the bounty they ask for. I do have ONE suggestion...make it so player warp scramblers don't work in deadspace. I'll take my chances at the stargates. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Lincoln Armm	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:10:00 - [29] Now trhat its been made abundantly clear to pirates how lucrative kiling mission runners can be no system could be too hard, unless it was virtually prohibitive. THe only thing that will get me back to mission running in low sec is locked gates or undetectable deadspace. I will not run mission where I can get jumped. Any attemt to force me to do so will just force me to stop running missions instead.
Ryan Scouse'UK	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:50:00 - [30] Originally by: Takanohana Originally by: Mik Nostrebor 4. Make a starship out of wood so it has 0 signature to probes....lololol (remember the Mosquito the brits made in the 1940's) Minnie ships are made of rust colored duct tape you know.... Saying that I dont Want to chance my Mach in low sec =P

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