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Black Scorpio	Posted - 2006.12.08 19:30:00 - [31] The solution is simple. Require advanced hacking, i.e. lvl 5 to hack a gate, and when it starts to hack the gate, show a message to the mission runner inside the complex that someone is tampering with the gate, and it will take approx (x amount of time.. see decreasing counter) to complete hacking. When the attacker warps in the complex have all (or at least half rats) automatically change to target and scramble him as well. This will give misison runner enough time to do as he pleases. Also allow only 1 person per hacked attempt. If you want to make it harder on the attacker, make hacking attempts chance based after a certain amount of time required to hack the gate!
Razean Minmatar Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:00:00 - [32] Originally by: Saltire this is a multiplayer game Therein lies the crux of the problem, missions are entirely single player oriented. There's no multiplayer aspect to them at all, and that should never have happened. Originally by: Ghoest There is one way I would go back. Increase the rewards(including faction) by about 10 times but only have the bonus apply if you do it in groups. You would still have to lengthen the scan times. I was thinking more along the lines of making the bonus 10 times larger and reduce the deadline for the bonus enough that it's impossible for 1 or 2 players to complete in time, would require 3-4 highly skilled players to get the bonus, and 5+ players would be able to reasonably complete the mission in time to get the bonus. Safety in numbers isn't a large enough incentive cause you can solo high sec more productively than teaming low sec missions, and low sec pirates will still be able to harrass a team enough that they're productivity is even lower. It's the one aspect of the game where it is just more productive to solo, and that's a huge flaw in the whole mission system. Bottom line, for an MMO, the mission system is WAY too single player oriented, especially considering it's ENTIRELY single player oriented.
Squrl Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:28:00 - [33] Have the faction your working for protect you from pirates while your in deadspace let em spawn in like concord if you get attacked.Or just lock the gates no reason for anyone one but you an your gang to be allowed in anyway, after all it is your mission not theirs!
lollerskates Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:19:00 - [34] /plays the world's smallest violin
Spike 68 Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:21:00 - [35] wait, people can die in low sec to other players? zomg im quitting
natashii Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:22:00 - [36] Edited by: natashii on 09/12/2006 03:23:46 Okay...lol First of all. If you are so worried about your precious missions. Do them in empire. When you step into low sec, you are taking a risk. All they did was balance the odds and make low sec the THREAT it is supposed to be. Low sec, is not supposed to guarantee anyone safe passage...that's why IT'S LOW SEC. There is the illusion of security but you are at risk. I don't understand, why you expect to be invincible in a low sec system. As soon as you jump in, you should be on guard for pirates. Pirates aren't a game exploit, they are a part of this game, SAME AS mission runners. You have to be on the lookout at all times when you enter low sec or 0.0. It's just part of the game. So when you are in system, running your mission, keep an eye on local and on your scan. Align if you have to and do what you can to protect yourself. But *****ing about how its ccp's fault is ridiculous. If you are so concerned and/or broke and can't afford to risk losing a ship, go to empire. Stay in empire and mission run. Don't even bother jumping into a low sec system if you aren't prepared to deal with the potential consequences. If you can't deal with the risk, get the hell out of low sec. And if you do venture into low sec, welcome and prepare to die. ;) ============================== lolol old sig had to go...this will have to do
Esaka Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:34:00 - [37] Yawn, so how long do you guys plan to run your corp op here on the mission forums? We know what can be done and we know what the limits are and i'm not going to buy your crap that the current situation would be in any way or sort balanced. It is not balanced in the time it takes to scan somebody out, it is not balanced in the respect of what equipment is needed to run lvl4 missions and it is not balanced reward wise to make gangs to run lvl4 missions. But ofc the whole situation is worth it for pirates, well at least until nobody is left in low sec. -------------------------------------- Agent & Mission-Info: http://www.eveinfo.com Evewide Market-Info: http://eve-central.com/
natashii Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:34:00 - [38] Originally by: Willo Vasquez Having lost 3 domi's in the space of a week to mission 'invaders' while running level 4's p.s.:Try to be more careful Willo Vasquez a.k.a. Try not to be mentally handicapped when mission running. Then perhaps you wouldn't lose three domi's... ============================== lolol old sig had to go...this will have to do
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:02:00 - [39] Originally by: Black Scorpio The solution is simple. Require advanced hacking, i.e. lvl 5 to hack a gate, and when it starts to hack the gate, show a message to the mission runner inside the complex that someone is tampering with the gate, and it will take approx (x amount of time.. see decreasing counter) to complete hacking. When the attacker warps in the complex have all (or at least half rats) automatically change to target and scramble him as well. This will give misison runner enough time to do as he pleases. Also allow only 1 person per hacked attempt. If you want to make it harder on the attacker, make hacking attempts chance based after a certain amount of time required to hack the gate! If you want people to take you seriously then your ideas should be balanced. I think we can all quietly agree that things are in favour of the pirates at the moment. Your idea however, is just ridiculous and no unbiased reader with a modicum of intelligence will take it seriously.
FourQue	Posted - 2006.12.09 08:51:00 - [40] I fail to see what all the fuss is about. Your running missions in low sec! People who play in low security systems understand the risks but enjoy the rewards. Your gaining more loyalty points than the guys running missions in Motsu or Oisio why shouldn't you be exposed to the same risk everyone else in low sec deals with. If you dont like it move to empire and accept less lp's per mission. All the mission runners I know have uber expensive and factioned out ships coupled with heads full of expensive implants. They try and make their lvl 4 missions as simple as possible paying for what they call a constant tank. They sit there hour after hour, locking a target, shooting at it then moving on to the next, never having to worry about their tank. In short mission runners have become fat, rich and lazy. Wake up guys its really not difficult to stop yourself being ganked in a mission, you just need to be playing the game rather than watchin **** and jacking yourself off whilst playing. Move more than 20k away from the entry point and stay alligned how difficult is that ??? Warp off when anyone enters your mission !! I mean come on, I know mission runners are carebares but actually getting ganked in a mission is sad, miners learn and adapt, why cant mission runners ? Pretty sad to think the guys with the training in tanks and guns are actually less adept at dealing with gankers than the guys with skills in refining and manufacturing.
Daimoness	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:46:00 - [41] If you accuse mission-runners in their fat faction-fitted ships lazy, then I wonder what you think of yourself? You seem to get off by shooting people that are already busy battling others. The closest resemblance to that is kicking someone that's already lying on the ground. That said, the new missions that came in with Kali are quite a bit harder, so even the multi-billion faction ships are no guarantee. And as for being aligned and always ready to warp out - you didn't ever do missions, did you? There are quite a few missions with scrambler/webber frigs around. The danger of low-sec has been sufficently increased for me by interdictor bubbles. I don't need the added fun with people warping into my missions and trying to kill me. I will return to low-sec missions once they fix probing of missions so that you can only find them with faction probes (Gravimetric, Ladar etc.) and give them a very small signature radius so chances even with Sift probes are at about 10% per scan. If you think that's way too low, then you have not tried exploration yet. On second thought - no, I don't think I will return to low-sec-missions. I have worked far too hard for my ships and faction fittings to become another entry in some low-sec-ganker's kill list.
Thaddeus Brutor Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.09 15:49:00 - [42] When probes do not reveal deadspace contents, only the entry gate (which is not in deadspace), and probing speed is drastically reduced. Deadspaces can be locked down in 5 minutes at the moment. It is retarded, currently.
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.09 16:12:00 - [43] Rich fat cat mission runner? I've been flying a old stinky trash can called a Typhoon for the last 6 months in low sec missions with mostly all T1 fittings. Never got ganked in a mission either....until after I lost it after Revelations (Thanks Turby...gave me incentive to go buy a Maelstrom). So with my new ship I've relocated to High Sec where there is a lvl 4 agent and ran my first Worlds Collide solo. With the bounties and loot drops I got 20% of my new ships paid back. So I am wondering, why do I want to go back to low sec in a 200 mil ship even if CCP fixes "The Problem". Better LP's? Better isk? Balance out how things are right now and ship loss ver reward, I just don't see the return on investment.
Altanna Ati	Posted - 2006.12.10 03:21:00 - [44] Originally by: Zed Nash A question to those lowsec runners who moved to highsec to avoid the bloodbath.......... CCP has announced a "fix" for probing out deadspace missions in the scheduled 12/13 patch. My question to you is: What will CCP have to implement to get you to return to lowsec for all your mission-running needs? This isn't a "PvP vs non-PvP" debate, if you don't run missions you have no reason to post here. I posted this on another thread, but this is what I think what would be fair: when someone enters a deadspace room who is unganged with anyone already in that room, every NPC in range has a 50% of targeting/retargeting the new guy.
Neuromandis	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:58:00 - [45] Edited by: Neuromandis on 10/12/2006 08:06:48 Edited by: Neuromandis on 10/12/2006 08:05:11 I have been following the stuff all these days. The OP's question is one of the most intelligent I have heard on the matter. Short answer: Nothing. Why? It has nothing to do with risk. Neither with enforced pvp - I chose that when I left the little green dots and went to little orange and red ones. Main reason is because it is TEDIOUS. I haven't lost a single isk to pirates in my home system - apart from a few cruise missiles they were on the receiving end of. They cannot say the same. But getting the hell out and refitting each time someone enters the system is tiresome. VERY tiresome. And, it has reached the simple point that ratting in Providence is a lot (I mean A LOT) more profitable. So, there is simply no reason to return to low-sec. I will either leave or not leave, neither will be permanent. But at the same time, I know that the sigh of relief that people will feel going back into high-sec and realise that there is no more an "I-WIN" button against them will prevent them from returning. EVER. Unless there is twice the whine from the pirates that they can no longer, ever, noway, hunt them, mission runners will not return. Why? Because there is no reason to - unless they are spoiling for a fight. I stayed for the fight, and even brought some friends. But I was no longer missioning, sorry. You make more money running 7-8 missions in a day with half the reward, than running 2 with double the reward. That was just about my drop rate. I'll go rating, because instead of running missions, I'm going back-and-forth to refit for combat. I am tired. I have sore feet. Sorry. In a gatecamp, there is always the possibility of a bigger group coming and tearing you a new one. In a mission, one has an "I win" button that may or may not work, the other has nothing. You cannot defend yourself. So you leave, unless you feel like playing the lamb for someone else's dinner. Low-sec is dead. Pvpers go to 0.0, missioners will go to 0.5. The few that remain won't be able to support a market. pity Only the most drastic of changes is gonna replace that. I dunno what was the intention, but today that I was in a mood to run a few missions I understood that it will take a lot of skill and drastic changes to undo the damage of the new probing system. If it is even possible. Bad, baaaad backfire, I wouldn't have seen it coming either. Good luck with this one, ccp... I am afraid only the most drastic of changes
ToyGirl	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:35:00 - [46] I read a lot in this thread along the lines of: if you don't like the risk go somewhere else, or: finally, mission running was to easy. The major issue is, it's become too easy to spot and intercept missionrunning. PreKali it was very difficult to locate a complex and enter it, now it is way too easy. I've heard of pie-rats occasionally jumping a missionrunner, but that did not happen a lot. Now it seems almost a given situation. I think the simplifying of using probes was a bad move, but it seems unlikely that it will be turned back. Suggestions on aggro-ing newcomers seems to me a good thing, but will it be enough? On outfitting your ship: config it for PvP. May make missions more difficult, but that should be not a reason to complain. On griefing by taking the mission-loot or such, I think that will pass. Something similar happened in a previous upgrade with ore-thieving, but you rarely read about it nowadays.
Molech Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.10 12:27:00 - [47] ------------------------ Bring me your first born
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.10 13:35:00 - [48] Aggroing incomers won't work...once the incomer leaves, those rats will remained in an aggro'd state...and targetting will revert back to the mission runner. What you're basically suggesting is an ability of an incomer to insta-aggro all rats. Not good. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.10 13:36:00 - [49] Aggroing incomers won't work...once the incomer leaves, those rats will remained in an aggro'd state...and targetting will revert back to the mission runner. What you're basically suggesting is an ability of an incomer to insta-aggro all rats. Not good. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Willo Vasquez Gallente Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.12.10 17:51:00 - [50] Originally by: natashii Edited by: natashii on 09/12/2006 04:16:17 Originally by: Willo Vasquez Having lost 3 domi's in the space of a week to mission 'invaders' while running level 4's p.s.:Try to be more careful Willo Vasquez Then perhaps you wouldn't lose three domi's... Your post serves no purpose except to reinforce my point, for which I thank you.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.10 19:38:00 - [51] Edited by: Grey Area on 10/12/2006 19:41:52 Originally by: Neuromandis Bad, baaaad backfire, I wouldn't have seen it coming either. But lots of us DID see it coming...easy scanning, plus WCS nerf = lots of dead mission runners. Lots of dead mission runners = lots of going back to high sec. This is what I and LOTS of others said would happen. And of course lots of priates flamed us and said we were "whining". Lots of pirates are of course, STILL saying it. But all it really would have taken was for CCP to add two and two and get four, and it could have been prevented. Now, unfortunately, I agree with you...it's going to take one HELL of a big change to get people back...something that used to happen maybe one mission in 20, and then only if you weren't paying attention, now happens on one mission in TWO, and no matter how much care you take. Going back to the 1 in 20 situation is unlikely to help because the mission runners now have that bad experience of being ganked. Equally, I have a bad feeling that CCP's "fix" will more likely take us back to 1 in 10, which will scare off even MOR mission runners. Hence my suggestion...stop warp scramblers working in deadspace. A prepared pirate team could STILL hunt them, but would have to flush them out of deadspace first. Adn they'd still get to jump them at gatecamps of course. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
LICENCE2KILL Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.10 19:40:00 - [52] ze
Mik Nostrebor Minmatar ORKS	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:44:00 - [53] Originally by: Takanohana Originally by: Mik Nostrebor 4. Make a starship out of wood so it has 0 signature to probes....lololol (remember the Mosquito the brits made in the 1940's) Minnie ships are made of rust colored duct tape you know.... LOL. Yes and that is why minnie ships have smaller sig radiuses :) The sad thing is that the rust colouring is made of real rust... oh yeah, and you forgot that there is spit in the mix as well. Spit and duck tape... and chewing gum in the tech II ships.
Sorela Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.11 03:04:00 - [54] My view on this is very simple. In no way shape or form is it acceptable that I might be jumped for PvP while I'm currently fitted for and engaging in very risky PvE. That doesn't mean I want missions to be safe. It simply means some mechanism must exist for me to disengage from PvE and somehow refit my ship before the engagement occurs. Now if they change mission mechanics somehow such that belt ratting setups were acceptable in a mission then I'd certainly wave the "refit my ship" portion of things. I'm not interested in discussing how that can be achieved honestly. Anyone who thinks that it's carebear though because people want a way to to enter a PvP fight as fresh as their opponent though is just off his/her rocker.
Arain	Posted - 2006.12.11 05:35:00 - [55] Started to reply to this but it ended up as a PvP verses PvE arguement, so suffice to say CCP screwed up and had better figure out how to return the threat level back to its previous level or lose a large portion of thier low sec population.
Tiodus Gallente City of Certitude	Posted - 2006.12.11 05:49:00 - [56] Yay lvl4 agents in hi-sec, guess who isn't even gonna spit in the direction of low-sec. I really didn't know this before I read this thread.
Lorn Zolog Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.11 06:57:00 - [57] Edited by: Lorn Zolog on 11/12/2006 06:59:47 The thing you have to realize is that CCP created Security Ratings for a reason. If you don't want to have to deal with pirates then stay in high sec that's what its there for. If you want to run missions in low sec you're gonna have to be smart about it. Pirates are supposed to be able to find you in low sec that's why CCP has made these changes, they knew what they were doing and whining at them won't get them to change it. There's actually a very simple solution to low-sec pirates, join a corp with other people that want to run low sec missions that can help you fight off the pirates. It's really not tough at all for a corp to secure a system as long as it doesn't have too much traffic. Hell I'll admit I'm a pirate but a number of the people in my corp are major mission runners. They are able to run low sec missions all day long without worrying about pirates because the pvpers in our corp kill anyone else, pirates included, that wander into our area. The solution is not to make it harder for pirates to find mission runners, but rather for mission runners to make friends.
FreeHansje Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.11 07:41:00 - [58] Quote: There's actually a very simple solution to low-sec pirates, join a corp with other people that want to run low sec missions that can help you fight off the pirates You do realize, that most missionrunners are loners, solo-players? What can you do solo against pie-rats jumping you as easy as it is now? And please, let's not get into another 'EVE is PVP only' thread, with PvP translated as spacecombat. ----- FreeHansje Yes, I'm a Newby. So sue me!
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.11 10:51:00 - [59] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 11/12/2006 10:54:29 Originally by: Lorn Zolog Pirates are supposed to be able to find you in low sec that's why CCP has made these changes, they knew what they were doing and whining at them won't get them to change it.. Lol, you really don't know much about CCPs modus operandi, do you? I will bet you my wallet that they did not think even a single second about the impact the easy-mode probing would have on mission runners. They saw how it makes REAL PvP more interesting (and with that I wholeheartedly agree) and implemented it. Mission runners don't really play into CCP considerations much since pretty much all of them are hardcore PvPers who just ignore mission runners. However, runners DO provide quite a chunk of CCPs income, so after the whinestorm it is being adressed. Without details forthcoming though, there is no telling whether their fix will make a difference or not though Besides pirates always were able to find runners in lowsec (with the exception of offplane missions which really were not THAT common, it just required some RL skill and time, i.e. it was an effort, so the gankbears wouldn't do it which now they do), but if you were smart you could protect yourself. Now every idiot can do it and the protection doesn't work anymore. Quote: If you don't want to have to deal with pirates then stay in high sec that's what its there for. Thing is, I DO want to deal with pirates, and I want to run missions. Thats why I live in lowsec. But I don't want to do both at the same time. I am sure many a real pirate enjoys the occasional triple 1.8 mil spawn as well as their PvP, but how would they enjoy a dozen of those 1.8 mil NPCs suddenly attacking them while their tank is already 90% occupied by a PvP engagement? And don't get me wrong, I want missions to be accessible to pirates too, but it should be an effort and there should be a warning for the smart runner (other than a hostile presence in local). Probing mission runners should be an art that seperates the chaff from the wheat among the pirates. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Tanya Raskov	Posted - 2006.12.11 14:06:00 - [60] Probing deadspace areas should be impossible. 1. Mission description usually says there is some sort of covert operation in there and that it was discovered by some great effort or by chance !!!!!! Therefore its utterly stupid that simple probing by every idiot can find such COVERT operation in mere seconds. 2. Missions are tied to agents - THEREFORE you should be able to find such spots only by contacting agent. Idea follows. You are in low sec, some mission runner annoys you. You go to agent ( same as his or enemy agent) and ask to betray/scout so you can ambush him at next mission. Cost could be something like 10k loyalty points/standing point of person you are trying to find. CCP should really get it together and scrap up a good idea from time to time.

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