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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2006.12.08 10:23:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Qual on 08/12/2006 10:34:35 Please CCP. You have added a great concept to EVE: Exploration.
Exploration is not for everyone. It takes dedication and time.
The problem here is that EvE is really to small for exploration. There is not a frontier in EVE, exept perhaps for the 8 new regions, but that will soon change. THus exploration will have to happen where people actually are allready.
So what happens if you make exploration easier? THat depens on how you do it!
Solution 1: Put a marker on system that shows it has something to be found. Ok, this one will result in a complete stripmining of all exploration sites in eve. I players know something is there they will keep scanning until they nail it down. Leave doubt there. Its one of the core things making exploration fun. "Do I scan again? Use the force Qual, can you feel something out there?"
Solution 2: Add a general probe that can see all availeble signal types in the system, thus giving you an idea what probe types to use. THis one is slightly better, and much better if it also reports non exploration signatures. (That will make it actually make it pretty useless as most system has derelict shuttles and stuf that woul mess up the result, but thats still a GOOD thing as it leaves exploration fairly hard.) If it only show exploratin signatures, its nearly just as bad as solution 1. Still sites will be found much faster with this in, and thus take out the exploration part of exploration.
Solution 3: Make current probes stronger. THis would increase the chance of succes on each probe run. This would increase the chance of spotting the sites, but still keep most of the rest of the exploration gameplay intact. This is my prefered method. It still feel wrong to me, as it really not that hard to scan things down today. (I've got an avarage of 2 site pr. day with 2-4 hours daily play time at my disposal. Seems fair enough to me.)
I fear any of these solutions will make everybody go exploring, and lead to strip mining of exploration sites, which again will make the sites seem more rare (especially in empire, where sites will be stripped moments after they spawn) than they actually are today.
Exploring, to me, is about finding stuff against all odds. Exploring is not for everyone, its a way of life, just like mining I guess. Changeing the exploration system to be easier, will take away the uniqe feel that exploration have now. Exploration should be about hunches and luck and not about facts.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Peter Stuyvesant
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.12.08 10:48:00 -
[2]
SIGNED SIGNED SIGNED
Especially the first 2 sentences. CCP please please don't mess this one up. Ive spent a couple of days exploring now and the difficulty is spot-on...nothing needs changing...
Please don't mess this up :(
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Nyack
GREY COUNCIL Breidablik
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Posted - 2006.12.08 10:52:00 -
[3]
one thing i came to think about was tath there is a slight chance that quest probes can find a signature other then the race specific right?
maybe they should colour code the deadspace once you found it with your first probe. so if you by luck find it with a gallente probe and it is amarr you can see by the colour code that it is amarr and you can go to that racial probe instead.. that way you wont tear your hair of trying to pin point the plex wiht wrong racial probes?
Please resize your signature to the limits specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected]) |
MaikAH
Caldari Radwar Enterprises THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.12.08 10:54:00 -
[4]
Edited by: MaikAH on 08/12/2006 10:55:00
SIGNED too
The way it is now, it's a challenge (saying that, even though I didn't find any thing yet :P)
Switching it too easymode would be a big disappointment
regards
maik
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2006.12.08 10:58:00 -
[5]
Replying to my own topic to keep the orignal psot clear.
Realised another thing. GM's will die in the petition que of they make exploration sites so easy to find that Joe Avarage finds them. You see, Joe Avarage will just aquire enough info to lean how to find a site. He will probably be in empire, and so, it likely that his site has ALLRADY BEEN FOUND by someone else. So now Joe jumps to the site, which is stilll there be course its not relocated yet (it only does at irregular intevals even if the site is stripped down), and he find absolutely nothing. "WTF" thinks Joe, "this cant be right. I've just probed this down and nothing is here!" Joe then hits the petition button just to do something.
Now ask yourself how many Joe's there are in empire. Thank god im not a GM.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2006.12.08 11:00:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nyack one thing i came to think about was tath there is a slight chance that quest probes can find a signature other then the race specific right?
maybe they should colour code the deadspace once you found it with your first probe. so if you by luck find it with a gallente probe and it is amarr you can see by the colour code that it is amarr and you can go to that racial probe instead.. that way you wont tear your hair of trying to pin point the plex wiht wrong racial probes?
Usually the signal strenght gives it away. The signal strengt is way low if your are not using optimal probe. Yet another trick of the trade.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Rafein
Eye of God Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.08 11:12:00 -
[7]
Decrease the scan times of the quest probes. It would allow for probing before the player falls asleep.
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Shayla Etherodyne
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Posted - 2006.12.08 11:17:00 -
[8]
/signed for 1 and 2 I woulkd like a generic long range probe, giving the different signals strenght with the signal tipe, and the racial ones for the sucessive pinpointing of the site (it has even a RL logic reason behind - first I do a scan with the largest spectre of signals possible, then I focus on the specifik kind of signals I have found).
The only other information I would like is a generic indication of the % of sites for the different security levels. As I am still building the scan/research ship, I am starting in high sec systems (0.5), but I would like to know if that is totally useless or not
Last thing, someone has noticed if the problem where changing session can delete the scanned but not explored cosmic signature has been resolved?
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2006.12.08 11:22:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Rafein Decrease the scan times of the quest probes. It would allow for probing before the player falls asleep.
Thats another thing NOT to do. Didn't even think of that "solution".
Dont do that either CCP.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
xthril
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Posted - 2006.12.08 12:45:00 -
[10]
I must say that I agree. Please dont dumb it down so it becomes boring.
There is like 150 000 accounts and 5000 systems. If everyone wants to explore there will not be enough systems.
If they reduce scantime a dedicated player will run through a region in a day.
My suggestion is to make it hard and long but increase rewards so that when you do find something it is really worth it. It is the best way of making sure most people get to play with explore content.
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Megan Ryder
VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.12.08 13:13:00 -
[11]
after having found 4 sites myself, 2 roid belts, 1 deadspace and 1 hacking site, the thing I would like changed is the profitability of the sites.
The roids in the belts were pathetically small, the main structure in the deadspace had a 6000hp dmg smart bomb yet dropped nothing, and after successfully hacking the 5 structures at the hacking site, none of them dropped anything either.
I say leave the difficulty in finding them as is, but please make them worthwhile when you actually find one. I'm not asking for a rattlesnake bpc every 5mins, but nothing at all from 6 major structures is not funny. Especially when you consider that the way the triggers are setup make it almost impossible to solo.
6hrs to find, a gang of 4 bs to clear the level, and a player with hacking lvl5 to hack the buildings should deserve something in return.
Please choose one signature only as specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected]) |
Joshua Foiritain
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.08 13:19:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 08/12/2006 13:21:01
Exploration shouldnt be easy, i agree. I also believe a system should not show if youve found everything or whether theres something to be found anyway.
I do however want to see the exploration system moved towards actual exploring rather then sitting somewhere waiting for a lucky probe result.
How is this done? One or more clues. For example, youre flying through a system and notoiced a "Deleted Arkonor Asteroid" on scanner somewhere, after looking around a bit you find it at planet V, upon warping there you get a pop stating "Interesting, a deleted arkonor asteroid in a star system where the asteroid belts do not contain asteroid ore. It looks like there might be a arkonor belt around here somewhere afterall."
This is just a simple example but it would indicate that the constellation contains an arkonor belt somewhere. Good explorers could find much cooler things with much less obvious clues while poor explorers can still do the scan a system for hours and hope to get lucky.
Next up: Hidden stargates, wormholes and star systems -----
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Philip Jones
Gallente Bridgeburners 9TH Squad
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Posted - 2006.12.08 14:03:00 -
[13]
/signed
I have had no exploration joy, besides a message popping up in system after my ship was stopped mid warp towards a station for no reason. I never found the site (skills weren't good enough), but that simply made me focus on getting the skills.
I don't require a 'I win' exploration method. If there is something out there 'I WILL find out it due to determination and the use of the old grey matter!'
My preference would be one of the 3 methods if something has to change. Another method would be simply to add news contet. When you fly into a new region, there could be varying hints that maybe there is an exploration site about. This could be done by: 1) In Empire space when people get missions off an agents and have exploration skills trained to a pre-required level, the agent will give them a mission, and then there is a chanace that the agent will say "Oh, on a side note watch out while in this regent, we seem to have lost a few ships around here, if you have the time for a bit investigating, we would be very grateful...."
2) For non agent runners, either a subsciption to something like 'the EVE Explorers Club' a monthly payment that will send news to their local/corp channel that only they can see when they go enter a new system, telling them that 'unusual activities and sighting have be reported in this system/ region'. Alternatively a module that picks up anomalities in regions.
This would give a hint that there is something around, but not a 'here is the exact location, 1st in 1st served atiitude.'
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.12.08 14:13:00 -
[14]
Topic signed
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
Lena Carebear
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Posted - 2006.12.08 15:21:00 -
[15]
/ signed
Just make them a little bit more Profitable , 2 hours of scanning and run the plex with 5 corp member to stay the NPCS and then the Stronghold drops a medium Smartbomb must be a joke :-)
Just Balance the Loot Tables ..... the rest is fine :-)
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Ione Hunt
Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.08 16:43:00 -
[16]
Signed! ________________________________________________
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Kipkruide
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.08 17:32:00 -
[17]
signed, easy is for people who play WoW
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Brolly
Caldari The Department of Justice
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Posted - 2006.12.08 17:54:00 -
[18]
I agree, it should'nt be dumbed down but there are a few steps which can be taken to improve the situation, such as reducing the material requirements on some of the probes for a start.
Putting markers on systems dumbs it down imho and those systems will be raped, new t2 items will flood the market at reasonable prices and wars will be declared to hold onto the resources.
I think there was a bad side to that
A multi scanner probe would be great, actually this could be a godsend as you could start off with this probe which would scan the system, then give information if there is a site in the system and what probe type should be used to narrow down the search. Fail that, you could have a new scanning mod which would act as a multi scanner, just giving you a basic idea of what's in the system, much like the system scanner.
What I don't believe is that it should be luck, that is just a cop out imho. What if someone is naturally unlicky, they could go through many systems not finding a thing. For some people the numbers don't roll the same as others...take the t2 lottery for instance
I was hoping exploration would be more based on the old system which was challenging, rewarding and a shed load of fun. What scan probes do is put a barrier between what was once great fun. Now it's a case of fire probe, scan, if that fails, scan again and nauseum, it's also a terrible time and isk sink.
As for dedication and time, what that translates into for me is those who have the luxury of time to spend hours of time per day are those who will benefit. Those of use who only have 2 hours per night to play eve have no chance in hell of participating.
If I had ú1 for every intelligent comment posted in general discussion, I'd be hideously in debt |
Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2006.12.08 19:22:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Brolly
As for dedication and time, what that translates into for me is those who have the luxury of time to spend hours of time per day are those who will benefit. Those of use who only have 2 hours per night to play eve have no chance in hell of participating.
I have 2-4 hours and i've been doing around two pr. day. It's well doable.
As for talking about luck. Well it HAVE to be a factor. Read the thread in my sig as to why that is...
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Egil Kolsto
Caldari Collwood Collective
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Posted - 2006.12.08 21:06:00 -
[20]
Sgined but please do make the roids slightly larger. Seen a few stories about minor sized roids in scanable places. If the size is too small, might as well just mine mission roids:)
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Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Anqara Industries Serenus Letum
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Posted - 2006.12.09 01:38:00 -
[21]
I would like it to be made easier, but in a subtle manner:
Have the logs found on npc drops that provide directions, come with dates and direct one to exploration content.
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Moadyb
The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2006.12.09 05:44:00 -
[22]
/signed
However, after finding around 8 or 9 different exploration sites, I must say that risk/reward or rather effort/reward is very, very low. I live out in 0.0 and I don't need to spend an hour looking for a site that spwans a few cruisers and frigs.
Also, getting a site with a few rocks in 0.0 is cute, but uselss. The hacking sites drop nothing worthwhile, and the small enounter Deadspaces (the 2 gates, etc) are nice the first time around, but the triggers get old really quick.
Sorry about the rant, but I honestly don't expect many people to continue wasting their time on exploration anyway, unless there is going to be some dramatic changes to the rewards with the next patch (which I highly doubt).
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Irrilian
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2006.12.09 06:26:00 -
[23]
Timesink != difficulty.
I concur that spoon feeding results isn't the answer, but I want exploration to be a intellectual challenge, not one of patience. The emotional reward in uncovering a site should be in solving a puzzle not blind luck.
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Kell Atorr
Minmatar Gradient
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Posted - 2006.12.09 06:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: xthril If they reduce scantime a dedicated player will run through a region in a day.
Since according to TomB, the sites that can be discovered through exploration will move around from system to system, the sites a player finds one day may not be there the next day.
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Moadyb
The Raven Warriors
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Posted - 2006.12.09 08:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kell Atorr
Originally by: xthril If they reduce scantime a dedicated player will run through a region in a day.
Since according to TomB, the sites that can be discovered through exploration will move around from system to system, the sites a player finds one day may not be there the next day.
Since Rev went live, no site I have found (12-15) has despawned other than the 'hacking' sites which despawn shortly after you open a few cans. All others are still there for over a week now, so they don't move around quickly.
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Yonos
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Posted - 2006.12.09 09:34:00 -
[26]
/signed difficulty is fine as is, but boost rewards significantly.
I also found the same site in a system 2 days apart. Stuff doesn't move around much right now.
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Brolly
Caldari The Department of Justice
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Posted - 2006.12.09 13:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Irrilian Timesink != difficulty.
I concur that spoon feeding results isn't the answer, but I want exploration to be a intellectual challenge, not one of patience. The emotional reward in uncovering a site should be in solving a puzzle not blind luck.
This is the kinda thing i'm on about, as for chancing being an important factor in eve, I don't think chance should over ride skills if you know what I mean.
Take salvage as a quick 'n dirty example (even though it's going to have a fix). At level 1 your chances should be quite slim 2 you're getting a 50/50 but the materials you get are somewhat limited 3 70/30 chance wider scope of available salvaged materials 4 80/20 chance wider scope of materials and a larger chance of getting 2 materials 5 90/10 more materials again plus the chance of getting best materials per ship class and you'll always get more than 1 material
Sure, you still have the chance element but your skills are having a greater effect upon you rewards.
I believe the same should be done for exploration. Obviously there are more skills to be considered (I think 4 skills contribute to exploration) and with 250 new complexes it should'nt be too hard to figure out what you rewards are per system, per skills and level.
If I had ú1 for every intelligent comment posted in general discussion, I'd be hideously in debt |
Myadra
Amarr Blood Inquisition Sani Khal'Vecna
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Posted - 2006.12.09 14:13:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Myadra on 09/12/2006 14:13:14
MAKE IT VERY EASY AND DUMB IT DOWN..... why?
Since i think the exploration rewards are very lacking at the moment, with very few regional scanning regions with "site tables" for each region... i am supporting them making it easyeir to find exploration sites
The alternative is to make the rewards for finding such sites worth the time, which i doubt they wan't to spend the time to do.....
and make it like in 0.0 only you can get rare rewards from hacking & archeology exploration sites.... and make it possible with "exploration region tables" like loot tables, to make finding a Amarr plex in "Blood Raiders space" like Delve possible, and getting navy loot and bpcs... like the empire people get from pirate plex's..
So I think it should be made alot easyeir... unless you make it worth peoples time, and add unique/rare sites & content to 0.0 and deep space regions & leave the crap sites in .4+ or wait... remove it from high sec & add a msg that this space has been charted by "controling faction" !! why should empire people get more content... when they've had cosmos for nearly 2 years.. exploration should be for low sec and 0.0 only..
and empire plex's... mentioning one more time, for us pirate runners & 0.0 people are still no where to be found, and i remember being told we're getting it in the cosmos or exploration addition. :)
BL-IN site & Killboard |
Brolly
Caldari The Department of Justice
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Posted - 2006.12.09 15:49:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Myadra why should empire people get more content... when they've had cosmos for nearly 2 years.. exploration should be for low sec and 0.0 only..
LOL, low sec has tons of stuff there, what content that exists in high sec is pretty poor on the old rewards side and is pretty damn mediocre to boot.
Low sec has pretty much everything expire has, with this new patch (once they fix it) empire will seem like a total waste of time.
Low sec has Better isk and loot rewards exploration sites cosmos missions better ore Rogue drones Gas clouds PVP and a load of other stuff
please excuse tangent.
If I had ú1 for every intelligent comment posted in general discussion, I'd be hideously in debt |
Ezra
Gallente Calista Industries
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Posted - 2006.12.09 16:04:00 -
[30]
I agree that the solutions you provide aren't good ones, but exploration definately needs some improvement.
Solution one: Reduce price of probes. This won't affect the time required to scan, but will solve the problem of the fact that risk/reward ratio is often negative, even in 0.0 let alone empire. Risk/reward ratio should always be at least partially positive, even if low. It will potentially increase farming of exploration sites a bit.
Solution two: Increase rewards from exploration per site. Any exploration site should have a decent reward even if it takes a long time to recover that reward. (For example, an exploration site with 20mill worth of veld in empire is going to need either a serious corp effort or a reasonably long amount of time to recover that 20mill). So far all indications have been that roid field site types have had extremely small roids. Roid fields with ores identical to what is found in their system should be common - possibly even multiple fields in most systems. Their only advantage over normal roid fields would be that it is difficult for the macrominers and can*****s to find them, but that's a huge advantage for many people.
Solution three: Along with this increase in the number of exploration sites and value of those sites, I would not mind if scanning for them were made HARDER (increased "sensor strength" of the sites). Solution 3 is only valid when combined with Solution 2 (otherwise it's not a solution), and preferably combined with both 2 and 1. ------------ Ezra Cornell pe0n, Calista Industries |
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