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Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:19:00 - [1] Oh Goodie ... CCP screwed it up the first time, now their going to reseed T2 BPO's and screw it up even further !! Who ever it is that is "supposedly" in charge of research and T2 BPO's should just be dragged out his/her lil ole' Icelandic hovel and dropped into the nearest lava flow. Why ? because current and future players will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage with this stupid lottery !! Got that ? or do you need it tattoo'ed on your forehead ? Fix it .. stop f**king it up, the entire T2 lottery was a fiasco from day one, and invention is about as useful as a case of hemeroids.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:21:00 - [2] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/12/2006 14:20:57 Uh, seeding more BPOs = increasing supply of T2 items = lower T2 prices... how is seeding more a bad thing? Unless you're a T2 BPO owner, of course... Stop whining, you've made enough profit already -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Chronus26 Gallente Dark Blood Contracts	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:24:00 - [3] Just because you haven't won the BPO lottery doesnt make the system bad. And no, I haven't won a BPO either. -----
Lil Belle	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart Oh Goodie ... I don't have any t2 bpos WAAAAWAAAAWAAAA IT'S NOT FAIR WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!111111
Templer Relleg Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:24:00 - [5] If inventions took less stuff, like the R&D agent stuff, is stupid imo, for people who did not create several ages ago. But T2 seed is good stuff, should decrease the prices a little. Especially on hacs, i hope. Would also love to see a recon ship price decrease!
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:25:00 - [6] Edited by: Xorena Blastaphart on 08/12/2006 14:29:30 Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/12/2006 14:20:57 Uh, seeding more BPOs = increasing supply of T2 items = lower T2 prices... how is seeding more a bad thing? Unless you're a T2 BPO owner, of course... Stop whining, you've made enough profit already Sorry to inform you I don't own a single T2 BPO and can't afford one anyway, my point is valid, with the current lottery system current AND new players will never have an equal opportunity to build these ships and components. What is fair, it to fix invention, so that ALL players have a chance to participate equally and without all the headbanging BS that invention is today. And Dark .. what do you do ? Live on the forums or do you actually play once in awhile ? :-) I mean your famous .. or is that infamous ... whatever And .. to those crying "Whaaaaaa" etc., I could give a **** if I ever get one, in fact I wish they would never release another .. make it all based on Invention, thats what I would like to see, with current T2 models as well as future designs. But they do need to fix Invention to make it happen.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:26:00 - [7] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/12/2006 14:27:03 Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart Originally by: Dark Shikari Uh, seeding more BPOs = increasing supply of T2 items = lower T2 prices... how is seeding more a bad thing? Unless you're a T2 BPO owner, of course... Stop whining, you've made enough profit already Sorry to inform you I don't own a single T2 BPO and can't afford one anyway, my point is valid, with the current lottery system current AND new players will never have an equal opportunity to build these ships and components. The lottery is, by definition, the most fair system possible for distribution of BPOs. With the lottery, anyone with a research agent, rich or poor, can get a BPO. If it was, for example, an auction (the other method proposed for distribution of T2 BPOs), then only the rich would get them. I'm guessing that the rich BPO owners would absolutely love the introduction of an auction system for distributing BPOs or the like -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:27:00 - [8] Well, as a T2 BPO owner I think that seeding more BPOs is great! Me and my 6 R&D agents have hundreds of thousands of RPs just waiting for new break thoughs. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Lil Belle	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:27:00 - [9] Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/12/2006 14:20:57 Uh, seeding more BPOs = increasing supply of T2 items = lower T2 prices... how is seeding more a bad thing? Unless you're a T2 BPO owner, of course... Stop whining, you've made enough profit already Sorry to inform you I don't own a single T2 BPO and can't afford one anyway, my point is valid, with the current lottery system current AND new players will never have an equal opportunity to build these ships and components. What is fair, it to fix invention, so that ALL players have a chance to participate equally and without all the headbanging BS that invention is today. And Dark .. what do you do ? Live on the forums or do you actually play once in awhile ? :-) I mean your famous .. or is that infamous ... whatever So you think new players that only just started research should have the same chance as players who have been researching for years and years with nothing? Be lucky they have a chance atall.
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:28:00 - [10] Ok. I got a t2 bpo and I want to see more out there. DS, you happy now? :) Honestly, I think more should be out there. It needs to be representative of the player population, so the seeding that was done a few years ago hasn't kept up with the pace of growth. That has of course lead to increased demand and the laws of economics took over from there. There is more than enough room for more t2 bpos. Plus, more pew pew. Even if you have a ship bpo, it is still a pain in the rear to get the fittings for it. So there eats up my profits.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Lil Belle Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/12/2006 14:20:57 Uh, seeding more BPOs = increasing supply of T2 items = lower T2 prices... how is seeding more a bad thing? Unless you're a T2 BPO owner, of course... Stop whining, you've made enough profit already Sorry to inform you I don't own a single T2 BPO and can't afford one anyway, my point is valid, with the current lottery system current AND new players will never have an equal opportunity to build these ships and components. What is fair, it to fix invention, so that ALL players have a chance to participate equally and without all the headbanging BS that invention is today. And Dark .. what do you do ? Live on the forums or do you actually play once in awhile ? :-) I mean your famous .. or is that infamous ... whatever So you think new players that only just started research should have the same chance as players who have been researching for years and years with nothing? Be lucky they have a chance at all. No, I don't--the current system means that people who have researched for a long time have more of a chance due to RPs. But they still have a chance, which is what is important. Under almost any other distribution system, only the veterans would have a chance. If it was a grind-based system, only people with no life would ever get BPOs, for example. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:39:00 - [12] So you think new players that only just started research should have the same chance as players who have been researching for years and years with nothing? Be lucky they have a chance atall. Nope, didn't say that, I said that the lottery system sucked to high heaven. Unfair to you and everyone else thats waited and have gotten zip .. (that puts you, and me and most reading this in the current player category). Its also unfair to the nOOb that signed up 10 minutes ago. Isn't it .. So I repeat, reseeding sux, because the demand will always exceed the supply, so long as the player base grows. However, if they fixed Invention, then it would be skill based, with a lil luck tossed in.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart So I repeat, reseeding sux, because the demand will always exceed the supply, so long as the player base grows. However, if they fixed Invention, then it would be skill based, with a lil luck tossed in. For about 85% of T2 items (or so), supply exceeds demand. There are quite a few cases where this isn't true of course... which are very obvious when you look through the market -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:42:00 - [14] Edited by: DarkMatter on 08/12/2006 14:43:36 I've been amazed over the years how thick the guys at CCP can be... Look how long it took them to fix the damn insta problem... If they had brains, warp to zero would have been realized as the way to go during beta when insta's were first created... No foresight, that's CCP's biggest f'ing problem... They are so afraid of making the game fun and they insist on walking the cut-throat/not fair fence so precisely that they are blinded from reality... It's simply laughable at times, and it's the primary reason most players don't last past a few months in the game... They get a lot of things right, but when they get it wrong, they sure **** it up, and are like the vatican, take ages to realized it's WRONG, or worse, never admit to it! They covered horsesh!t with cowsh!t when they implemented "Invention" Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:44:00 - [15] Originally by: Dark ShikariFor about 85% of T2 items (or so), supply exceeds demand. There are quite a few cases where this isn't true of course... which are very obvious when you look through the market [:lol: I can't argue with that, it is, for the most part, quite true.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:48:00 - [16] Originally by: DarkMatter They covered horsesh!t with cowsh!t when they implemented "Invention" Actually I've been looking at invention and if it actually gives a large number of runs, it might turn out to be extremely effective. The biggest problem with invention is that the skills required to enter the business are so expensive. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:01:00 - [17] Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually I've been looking at invention and if it actually gives a large number of runs, it might turn out to be extremely effective. The biggest problem with invention is that the skills required to enter the business are so expensive. Uhuh, what did you think I was saying all this time ? Gimme a T2 BPO cause I'm needy ? What I'm saying is take your T2 BPO's and stuff `em where the sun never shines, fix Invention so that anyone that has the desire to build these ships and components can train, acquire the materials (without the extreme headbanging BS please), toss it in the pot, cross your fingers and pray that something decent pop's out. Not some nerfed piece of c**p that isn't worth your time, effort or expenditure of ISK.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:02:00 - [18] Edited by: DarkMatter on 08/12/2006 15:02:22 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: DarkMatter They covered horsesh!t with cowsh!t when they implemented "Invention" Actually I've been looking at invention and if it actually gives a large number of runs, it might turn out to be extremely effective. The biggest problem with invention is that the skills required to enter the business are so expensive. I agree it looks good on paper, a lot of stuff looks good on paper in life. The implementation is the key, and CCP is going to make it so difficult to get the skills & materials to make it work, because they want to keep the numbers very very low, that it's too much like hard work, and not fun, like a game should be... Imagine if they made it that hard to get the Tech 2 BS skill... They only dropped from secrect cosmos missions. Just think of the uproar. But the industry sector of this game has to put up with that sh!t time & time again with these clowns at CCP. I have not played the game much recently, but b4 the patch I was gearing up to make a run at invention, but then realized the invention skill is not even seeded, lo and behold it's not after the patch either! So decided not to bother wasting the time playing a broken game... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:02:00 - [19] There's a lot of whining on the forums, but the worst is that of the spoilt T2 BPO owner brats who don't want others to win any BPOs ...
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:03:00 - [20] Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 08/12/2006 15:02:22 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: DarkMatter They covered horsesh!t with cowsh!t when they implemented "Invention" Actually I've been looking at invention and if it actually gives a large number of runs, it might turn out to be extremely effective. The biggest problem with invention is that the skills required to enter the business are so expensive. I agree it looks good on paper, a lot of stuff looks good on paper in life. The implementation is the key, and CCP is going to make it so difficult to get the skills & materials to make it work, because they want to keep the numbers very very low, that it's too much like hard work, and not fun, like a game should be... Imagine if they made it that hard to get the Tech 2 BS skill... They only dropped from secrect cosmos missions. Just think of the uproar. But the industry sector of this game has to put up with that sh!t time & time again with these clowns at CCP. I have not played the game much recently, but b4 the patch I was gearing up to make a run at invention, but then realized the invention skill is not even seeded, lo and behold it's not after the patch either! So decided not to bother wasting the time playing a broken game... You mean the encryptions skill? You can buy them on Jita market for a few hundred million. Its a lot, yes, and the droprate should be increased, but at least it does exist. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Sable Schroedinger Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:07:00 - [21] Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 08/12/2006 14:43:36 I've been amazed over the years how thick the guys at CCP can be... Look how long it took them to fix the damn insta problem... If they had brains, warp to zero would have been realized as the way to go during beta when insta's were first created... No foresight, that's CCP's biggest f'ing problem... They are so afraid of making the game fun and they insist on walking the cut-throat/not fair fence so precisely that they are blinded from reality... It's simply laughable at times, and it's the primary reason most players don't last past a few months in the game... They get a lot of things right, but when they get it wrong, they sure ** it up, and are like the vatican, take ages to realized it's WRONG, or worse, never admit to it! They covered horsesh!t with cowsh!t when they implemented "Invention" Nah, the biggest problem with CCP is that it has to put up with immature, spoilt, obnoxious brats. Really wish they could** fix that one. Pitty they can't invent something that insta bans them on application - or at least just bars them from posting. Ahh well, guess we can't have everything -------------------------------------------- Join Now
Nimie	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart So I repeat, reseeding sux, because the demand will always exceed the supply, so long as the player base grows. However, if they fixed Invention, then it would be skill based, with a lil luck tossed in. For about 85% of T2 items (or so), supply exceeds demand. There are quite a few cases where this isn't true of course... which are very obvious when you look through the market i don't really see how you get this. if supply exceeds demand, wouldn't the excess supply be worthless since noone needs it? isn't it that supply is lower than demand, which is why the higher lvl of demand can only afford it and why prices are where they are?
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:08:00 - [23] Originally by: Nimie Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart So I repeat, reseeding sux, because the demand will always exceed the supply, so long as the player base grows. However, if they fixed Invention, then it would be skill based, with a lil luck tossed in. For about 85% of T2 items (or so), supply exceeds demand. There are quite a few cases where this isn't true of course... which are very obvious when you look through the market i don't really see how you get this. if supply exceeds demand, wouldn't the excess supply be worthless since noone needs it? isn't it that supply is lower than demand, which is why the higher lvl of demand can only afford it and why prices are where they are? When supply exceeds demand considerably in the T2 business, prices rarely hit zero profit, but rather the producers limit their production because they simply can't sell it all. The prices hit an equilibrium, usually above build cost but at a point where profit is pretty low. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:11:00 - [24] Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart Oh Goodie ... Why ? because current and future players will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage with this stupid lottery !! So you think the players who have had 6 research agents at level 4 for the past 2 years should have the same chance of getting a t2 bpo than you? Do you also wish you had the same SP as the players who have played for 2 years? I think they should go the other way, have set prices for T2 BPO so that you can just save up your RP and eventually just buy one with no maximum to the # of bpo that are allowed in the universe.... that way it would discourage oligopolies because when one bpo was worth 10X as much as another (per RP) everyone would get it and drive the prices back in line. I want the price of HAC bpo's to be around 2-3 bill, not 100 bill. -Bart
Juwi Kotch Gallente VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:13:00 - [25] The lottery is not the problem, the BPO is. When the lottery would have seeded BPCs instead of BPOs, we wouldn't have any of the problems with the current T2 BPO market. Juwi Kotch
Nimie	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:14:00 - [26] Edited by: Nimie on 08/12/2006 15:18:00 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Nimie Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart So I repeat, reseeding sux, because the demand will always exceed the supply, so long as the player base grows. However, if they fixed Invention, then it would be skill based, with a lil luck tossed in. For about 85% of T2 items (or so), supply exceeds demand. There are quite a few cases where this isn't true of course... which are very obvious when you look through the market i don't really see how you get this. if supply exceeds demand, wouldn't the excess supply be worthless since noone needs it? isn't it that supply is lower than demand, which is why the higher lvl of demand can only afford it and why prices are where they are? When supply exceeds demand considerably in the T2 business, prices rarely hit zero profit, but rather the producers limit their production because they simply can't sell it all. The prices hit an equilibrium, usually above build cost but at a point where profit is pretty low. there are producers that can't sell it all and instead stop production? the current t2 prices are at a point where because supply is excessive to demand, profit is pretty low relative to build cost? the t2 bpo business is fine. i just got my first t2 bpo a week ago but before that i pulled over 100b without them. more likely than not, alot of people think rich industralist got rich from winning bpos but most of them probaly earned most of their money to buy bpos and never found them.
Nimie	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:17:00 - [27] Edited by: Nimie on 08/12/2006 15:18:28 double post
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:18:00 - [28] Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression we needed an actual skill called "Invention" to perform the operation of trying to create a T2 BPC. I have the encryptions skills I want... I guess I need to go back and refresh my memory with whatever obscure DEV blog it was that explained it... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Xorena Blastaphart Caldari Signum Malus	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:28:00 - [29] Nope, their is no "Invention" skill, just skills related to the process called "Invention".
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:38:00 - [30] Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart Nope, their is no "Invention" skill, just skills related to the process called "Invention". So your R&D agent is the actual inventor then? Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Admai Sket	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:39:00 - [31] rofl at the op. he's saying one thing, then we're telling him waht he's said, then he's denied it, then repeated what he said in the first place. --------- NEED A SIG PLEASE.
Syrec Gallente Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:47:00 - [32] Any way you want to look at it, it is a poorly designed system. T2 BPOs are the most powerful items in the game, and they are given out randomly. My only problem with seeding more is that it means a real system still isn't being designed. This leaves a backbone of wealth in this supposedly player driven economy up for grabs with no effort. Every constant game concept like risk vs reward goes out the window with it. You can sit in 1.0 space and hardly ever log on, and one day have a 70 billion T2 BPO drop on your lap. From an MMO design concept standpoint, that's just dumb and the biggest blooper of EVE; taking the best items in a player driven game and duct taping an absurd system to hand them out my 2 cents
Nimie	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:19:00 - [33] it's not a poorly designed system. kinda. if it was highly in favor of older players, it would leave a huge gap between older and new players. if you wanted a lower gap between the older and younger, it's a system that helps it. it is still kinda twisted, but alot of things are, including our own governments. consider what bill gates gets in return for his tax dollars for instance. also, even if it's possible for a new player to get the best bpo by doing almost nothing(he can't almost do almost nothing mind you), in other games it's not like you can't kill a single monster once and get it's rarest most valuable drop while others still haven't after thousands of kills. it's actually not much different one a group of players jumping a boss.
theRaptor Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Dark Shikari If it was a grind-based system, only people with no life would ever get BPOs, for example. Remove T2 BPO's and make it BPC (large run's) only. That way anyone can grind for T2, and luck doesn't hand someone the ability to print money for the next several years. Random chance of the magnitude of T2 BPO's is just so much against the spirit of EVE. CCP don't hand out 0.0 regions via lottery. I don't think you trust, in, my, self-righteous suicide.
Nimie	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:31:00 - [35] if ccp handed out bpcs, it would ruin the industrialist type of feeling. also, it can make an industrialist go out of business if he doesn't get a bpc for a while and makes the life of an idustrialist very chance based. it breaks the research breakthough feeling too. idealistly, you should have a steady stream of postive results from research since research is pretty risky.
Milena Marich	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Xorena Blastaphart the entire T2 lottery was a fiasco from day one, and invention is about as useful as a case of hemeroids. I agree with that. CCP has failed miserably here.
Oku Kee'lus	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:40:00 - [37] Originally by: Dark Shikari The lottery is, by definition, the most fair system possible for distribution of BPOs. With the lottery, anyone with a research agent, rich or poor, can get a BPO. If it was, for example, an auction (the other method proposed for distribution of T2 BPOs), then only the rich would get them. I'm guessing that the rich BPO owners would absolutely love the introduction of an auction system for distributing BPOs or the like Well, not really. Old players have build up A LOT of RPs, due to the fact that they've had no use for RPs since the first lottery. New players don't have an equal chance. They are way behind in accumalating those points. Now that RPs have a "use". Why not give everyone with a R&D agent an equal chance in the lottery, regardless of points. That would even the field and make the lottery "fair". That said, the invention system does need some tweaking, especially in regards to giving the players with massive amounts of RP points something in return for their "work". \| Here there be Rangers \|
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:44:00 - [38] Originally by: Nimie if ccp handed out bpcs, it would ruin the industrialist type of feeling. also, it can make an industrialist go out of business if he doesn't get a bpc for a while and makes the life of an idustrialist very chance based. it breaks the research breakthough feeling too. idealistly, you should have a steady stream of postive results from research since research is pretty risky. Research... risky?!? --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2006.12.08 17:22:00 - [39] I don't care if a handful more people get to play tycoon, so long as there is a steady flow of equipment to the public (ie non-alliance) market. Everybody wins, why complain about a few dozen people winning more? Are you really cut up by envy of RL lottery winners?
Syrec Gallente Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.08 17:53:00 - [40] Originally by: Cmdr Sy I don't care if a handful more people get to play tycoon, so long as there is a steady flow of equipment to the public (ie non-alliance) market. Everybody wins, why complain about a few dozen people winning more? Are you really cut up by envy of RL lottery winners? won't happen
Nimie	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:22:00 - [41] Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Nimie if ccp handed out bpcs, it would ruin the industrialist type of feeling. also, it can make an industrialist go out of business if he doesn't get a bpc for a while and makes the life of an idustrialist very chance based. it breaks the research breakthough feeling too. idealistly, you shouldn't have a steady stream of postive results from research since research is pretty risky. Research... risky?!? real research is risky. typo: it should be shouldn't

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