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Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
   |
Posted - 2006.12.08 18:39:00 -
[1]
Extenders do not increase your sig by loads.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.08 20:23:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Pottsey on 08/12/2006 20:25:31
Dedicated passive tank are not bad on battleships. Your best to mix extenders and hardeners and often the hitpoints alone with resistance is all you need.
Sure you might get 400hp with a booster but thatÆs only 80HP/s. Work out how long that takes just to heal the same amount of hitpoints as one extender. You have to do loads of booster cycles to = 1 extender.
ItÆs easy to hit 20k hitpoints on a passive tank battleship and a booster would take over 4 minuets just to heal the same amount of hitpoints as the passive tank has as base hitpoints. ThatÆs not even factoring in the passive tank regen.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.09 08:48:00 -
[3]
"The Drake is the best T1 passive tank in the game."
I dont agree with that I think the Gallante ships are better. I guess it depends how you define the best tank.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.09 20:52:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Pottsey on 09/12/2006 20:57:13
ôThats if u ask me. And shield extenders on a BS are kinda silly. RES tops sheer HP any day of the week.ö
But the Gallente ships tend to have more slots and 1 slot = 30% or more resistance which is better then the built in 25% bonus for the Drake. A balance between regen, hitpoints and resistance is what makes a good tank. Gallente ships tend to have a better balance in my mind.
ôI think the Drake/Ferox have the best large ship passive tank\ö
I much prefer the tanks on my Gallente ships much better both for PvE and PvP.
ôthen the Jag has the best small ship passive tank.ö
Perhaps I could challenge that. DonÆt know as I donÆt know its tank. What resistance, hitpoints and HP regen does it get?
ôA true passive tank is one that does NOT use any capacitor at all, so only shield resistance amplifiers get used, not shield hardners (or god forbid invul fields, T1 version drains 4 cap/sec)...ö
I donÆt agree the old definitions which I as not aware changed where anything that useÆs less then 20% of the ships caps is passive. 50% is hybrid and over 70% active. A passive tank is more about having no shield boosters or large cap drain, not 0 cap drain. A 0 cap drain ship is more of a passive tank but I donÆt like the word true. A passive tank with 4cap/s second drain is still real passive tank.
The word passive also refers to the recharge being on 24/7 without and active assistance by the player. Booster are active because the player needs to be there to turn them on and off. Passive shields on the other hand are passive without player assistance.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.11 07:19:00 -
[5]
ôDCS are so horrible for shield tanking, I found it horrible how many shield tankers used them a while back. I think, thankfully, most have learned to stop using them.ö
They are great if used correctly. Your math makes them look much worse then they are.
ôThey are so easy to calc tho in a program since they don't have the stacking penalty.ö
They are not easy to calc as most do it wrong. Your formulas is wrong for showing the true benefit of DCS but there is no easy way to do it. Your pretty much as close as you can get with math alone. Well I say your formulas wrong, I say that based on the results as I havenÆt seen the formula
Using your math some better ship setups can fail to tank lvl 4 missions while the worse ships can tank lvl 4 missions ok.
For example a Dominix with 7 PDS often does much better in combat over 7 relays yet your math/formula says 7 PDS is a much worse tank. This happens on a lot of ships.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.11 18:45:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/12/2006 19:16:36
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/12/2006 19:13:22
ôYou say my formulas are wrong but you have never seen them as you say and you don't know how they work. My formulas always work out 100% to the numbers in game and they also work out in practice too... a ship with 5000 shields with a tank of 300dps in my system will work better in practice than a ship with 15000 shields and a 200 dps tank.ö
Your formulas donÆt match with survival time in game as the results donÆt match I think they are wrong. Well not wrong I am sure they are right itÆs the lack of factoring in hitpoints thatÆs the problem and that you donÆt factor in different enemy DPS.
Your formulas only tell part of the story and itÆs the results that are wrong. Not flat out wrong, the problem is you donÆt factor in hitpoints for survival. If your tankable DPS is more then the enemy deal out your formula and chart of best tanked ships is perfect. The problem is once the DPS you take goes over the amount you can tank your results donÆt match what you get in game.
You say the Ship B with high regen is better yet it would die faster sometimes. (going work this out with real numbers later)
Ship A is the hitpoint ship
Ship B is the regen ship low hitpoints
Against 500 DPS ship A lasts 109 seconds and Ship B lasts 133seconds
Against 600 DPS ship A lasts 73 seconds and Ship B lasts 47 seconds
Against 1000 DPS ship A lasts 31 seconds and Ship B lasts 13 seconds
Done with average resistance and enemy DPS hitting all 4 resistance.
Now if enemy deal 500dps or less ship B has the longer survival time if you take 600 DPS or more Ship A has the higher survival time.
ItÆs not a simple case of saying Ship B is always better due to high regen. Ship A due to the extra time has a chance to kill enough enemies to get the DPS down to a tankable level while ship A can die.
Another problem with the regen ship is it spends less time at peak. Higher hitpoints mean the peak is extended over a longer time frame. Ship A might only get 200dps but 200dps at peak for 10 seconds can be better then 300dps for 5 seconds. Might be as I cannot think of any practicalway to work that out. I use the survival time formulas with various DPS from enemy then test in game.
Use formulas to work out the best 2 or 4 ships then get a friend and test those setups. Get a missile ship that deals consistent DPS and time how long it takes for the shields to go down.
ôIn most PvE cases having a better dps tank is the best solution, in a few rarer cases it isn't.ö
For lvl 3 missions I would say regen is better for lvl 4 hitpoints is better. It all depends on the incoming DPS and the tank. I do PvE Cosmos and that means 1300 to 1500dps from the enemy.
ôOn easy missions, sure, PDS seem far better because of that massive buffer. On longer missions, however, the SPR's are far better as their increased regen over the PDS overcomes that relatively small buffer that was added by the PDS.ö
I would say its more on easy missions or long but low DPS mission regen is better. For short mission or high DPS missions hitpoints are better. My brother used to do lvl 4 missions on high hitpoints with high resistance and low regen. I prefer a mix my self.
As for the PDS taking 1 out of my setups lowers my shields by 1349 so I hardly call it a small amount.
There is a 39 regen difference between the 2 setups I use so its going take 3 ish minuets for the regen ship to heal the same amount of hitpoints as the hitpoint ship has at base. Only during that 3 minuets the HP ship has always been healing.
(the two setups are max PDS and 5 relays with 2 PDS fitted)
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.11 19:15:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/12/2006 19:20:39
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/12/2006 19:17:43
ô*sighs* Pottsey, you were the reason I got into all the formulas and passive shield tanks. Now you're the nay-sayer when your ideas are built upon by others?ö
I do like what your trying to do I just think your doing it half wrong. I didnt build passive tanking on formulas I built in on testing ships in battle then found a formulas that matched. Formulas should be used as guide lines only.
I donÆt mean to sound like you should abandon what youÆre doing. Just tweak it a little. I will even offer to host a webpage for you if you want and if you ever want to meet on the test server to confirm setups I am up for that. What your working on will be great for the community once its finished. Not that it will ever be finished. Everything change's to often for that which I guess is good.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.11 20:41:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/12/2006 20:41:47
ôThey dont have the mid slots and they dont have the shield resists. Its beyond me how they would be good passive tanks.ö
Passive tanks are about the low slots not mid slots at least it used to be for the last 3 years until the recent changes :(. Up until recently Gallente where much better at passive tanking I donÆt like the way they have slowly got worse then Caldari. It should be the other way around. For the first year or 2 you never had any Caldari ships passive tanked it was pretty much a pure Gallente thing. Only after BC came out and about 5 different boosts to extenders did you start seeing Caldari passive tank.
I also donÆt like the way extenders are now must have fits and rechargers are now mostly useless.
I think an Eos is much better overall tank and setup then a Vulature as you get a strong tank and still do great DPS with the Eos. While the Vulture might end up stronger it sits there not doing much. ComplexÆs I solo in my Eos are not something you can easily solo in a Vulture.
http://www.dissonance-corp.com/screenshots/Eosmark5.JPG
This is not every single slot is used for passive tanking and this is my old archaeology setup. My new one is even better.
Least impotently Gallente ships end up with a lower recharge which I think is better. I role-play a lot in game and sometimes in the forums and to me a 37 or 85 seconds shield recharge on a Gallente ship is better then Caldari. Even though in game it doesnÆt work out better I like to role-play the setups that should be better even if it means taking a weaker setup.
Then again if shield relays T2 ever come out Gallente ships will put ahead of Caldari again due to all the low slots.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.12 19:24:00 -
[9]
ôAnd unless they change stacking there is pretty much no way any Gallente ship is going to match a drake(not to mention a vulture) in both resists and shields persecond.ö
ôSee you are confused. First you were saying Gallente wre better passive tanker.ö
Well first there is not stacking penalty on the low slot models which gallante use.
Did you click on my Eos link? ItÆs close to a Vulture tank yet does far more damage which in my mind makes it a much better ship and tank. A tank that can do nothing but tank is mostly useless. Fit your ship for a job then fit the tank. My Eos can tank well over 1300DPS while still dealing good damage to the enemy. ItÆs a match for a Vulture anyday.
I am not confused I said it depends on how you define better passive tanks. If you role-play like I do in game and use best shield recharge then Gallente are the best. If you go by best overall ship with tank then Gallente can win as well depending on the ship class. If you go for pure tank Gallente used to win in the battleship category but after the patch now lose. As for the BC well Caldari win if you go by tank alone with Gallente right behind them. But being right behind does not mean they are rubbish.
ôNow you are saying they should be better passive tankers.ö
I was talking about different ship classes. For 3 years Gallente where the best battleship passive tankers now after the patch they are not in the battleship class. As for the BC class I still prefer Gallente passive tanks to Caldari as the overall ship is better for Gallente. In fact for a long time you never even had Caldari passive tanking. The main reason Caldari pulled ahead is the T2 mid slot passive tank modules came out but the low slow T2 modules never did. As soon as the T2 low slot modules come out Gallente will go back to be number 1 at passive tanking.
Its not a case of 1 race is better then the other. It all depends on which ship and what job your talking about. Take my Gallente Stealth Bomber it makes a good passive tank yet the Caldari bomber is useless as a passive tank. But now the Caldari battleship is better then the Gallente BS.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 11:08:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2006 11:15:39
ôI looked at your link. Those are horrible resists compared to a tanked Vulture.ö
No its not. Show me a Vulture that can do that well and make my resists look horrible. ItÆs a ship I use every day so itÆs a real setup not one made to tank as good as possible and do nothing else. Also I role-play and used passive hardeners instead of active even though active are better. So why donÆt you make a Vulture up with passive hardeners that makes my resistance look horrible. Kin and Thermal only. I fight serps and donÆt use active hardeners so thereÆs no point and no way to boost explosive and EM as there are no passive to all resistance module.
I also said an Eos can match a Vulture not that an Eos is much better. I only wanted to show Gallante can passive tank well after you said they cannot.
öAnd the BC(or CC) class is where Passive tanking is at. If you want to say it doesnt count then whats the point of talking really?ö
I didnÆt say BC do not count I said you can passive tank lots of classÆs and which race is better depends on the ship class your talking about.
öAnd its not just since the last patch or even since Red Moon. The Ferox has been the best passive tank for a long time.ö
Then why does it hold none of the shield records? I donÆt see Caldari ships coming close to 37seconds let alone 100seconds shield recarge.
ôWhen you say it can tank 1300 dps, does that mean it can sit there forever and tank 1300 dps for hours? Or does that mean it can handle 1300 dps long enough for you to kill off ships to drop the DPS down low enough that you can survive?ö
Unless I posted the wrong screenshot its 1300dps for ever with high resistance and high hitpoints used as a buffer to kill enough ships to lower the DPS down to 1300 or less as they do a lot more then 1300 in the complex I live in. Its also 100% passive with passive hardeners so it could be made better with active hardeners.
I also sometimes friendly dual with the locals who have hybrid weapons kin/therm damage like the serp rats.
ôThere is no way that linked ship tanks 1300 dps across all 4 resists which is what I list my tanks as.ö
I never said it was across all 4 resistanceÆs. I just lodged on took a screenshot of my current ship and posted it to prove Gallante can passive tank good. If I get time I will try and make a 1000+ DPS across all 4 resistanceÆs tonight.
ôAnd then we take into account that the Domi is a Battleship, not a battlecruiser and we realize it was a stupid comparison.ö
Its still the same with the BCÆs a Gallente end up with a slightly weaker tank but much more flexible ship with higher DPS output. A Gallente BC with drones alone beats the DPS on a Caldari BC.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 17:06:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2006 17:10:54
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2006 17:08:37
I think it had 1 faction module on but not 100% sure as I rushed the screenshot. I just loged in quick and took a screenshot so if the last thing I did was the complex is was faction, if it was a local fight it would be T2.
As soon as I can get on will make a T2 only setup up. Assuming I even have any T2 invul fields got a feeling all mine are all faction from back in the day when no one used invul fields so they where dirt cheap. I also didnÆt have lvl 5 passive resistance skills back when I took that screen shot so a new one is in order. The skill should be done any day.
EDIT: I noticed you used active hardners I donÆt have any T2 active hardeners. Will see if I can borrow some for a closer comparison to your setup.
EDIT2: Did you mean active invul field or single hardeners? I want to get my setup as close as yours as I can.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 17:28:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2006 17:32:42
ôCopying setups between ships is obviously not the best solution, each ship does better with slightly different fittings.ö
Very true still I like to keep the price value similar. If I did have a passive faction module fitted I should swap it for passive or active T2. As for implants I used the best out. No rigs yet.
Just to be clear this it to prove to Ghoest Gallente can have good passive tanks. This is not about being much better or worse the Caldari. Only that as Gallente we match Caldari. In the Command Ship class.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 20:16:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2006 20:18:47
ôWeird... for the life of me I cannot figure out how your ship got those values to resists & shield / regen. Was that SS before Kali?ö
You found it so hard as my skills where at different levels and without lvl 5 passive skills. As you figured out I have a siege warfare link with a midnlink implant. An often overlooked cheap implant for passive tankers even if you donÆt use warfare links the mindlink still boosts your shield hitpoints. The SS was after Kali but before the last 2 patch's.
What resistance from the Shield Harmonizing module module does a Vulture get with mindlink and lvl 5 command ship skill? I get 22.5% on my Eos.
ôResists of:
30.00% 72.00% 93.75% 89.50%ö
How did you get that? ShouldnÆt that 30 be 25 or a lot higher then 30?
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
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