| Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Shadarle
   |
Posted - 2006.12.11 21:30:00 -
[61]
4 Hardeners and 1 invuln is such a horrible setup, hate to say it so plainly... but it is. It's just soooo bad.
That Invuln is providing so much less than what other modules would provide. Cap regen mods or Shield Boost Amps, for example.
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Ghoest
|
Posted - 2006.12.12 16:25:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/12/2006 20:41:47
ôThey dont have the mid slots and they dont have the shield resists. Its beyond me how they would be good passive tanks.ö
Passive tanks are about the low slots not mid slots at least it used to be for the last 3 years until the recent changes :(. Up until recently Gallente where much better at passive tanking I donÆt like the way they have slowly got worse then Caldari. It should be the other way around. For the first year or 2 you never had any Caldari ships passive tanked it was pretty much a pure Gallente thing. Only after BC came out and about 5 different boosts to extenders did you start seeing Caldari passive tank.
I also donÆt like the way extenders are now must have fits and rechargers are now mostly useless.
I think an Eos is much better overall tank and setup then a Vulature as you get a strong tank and still do great DPS with the Eos. While the Vulture might end up stronger it sits there not doing much. ComplexÆs I solo in my Eos are not something you can easily solo in a Vulture.
http://www.dissonance-corp.com/screenshots/Eosmark5.JPG
This is not every single slot is used for passive tanking and this is my old archaeology setup. My new one is even better.
Least impotently Gallente ships end up with a lower recharge which I think is better. I role-play a lot in game and sometimes in the forums and to me a 37 or 85 seconds shield recharge on a Gallente ship is better then Caldari. Even though in game it doesnÆt work out better I like to role-play the setups that should be better even if it means taking a weaker setup.
Then again if shield relays T2 ever come out Gallente ships will put ahead of Caldari again due to all the low slots.
See you are confused. First you were saying Gallente wre better passive tanker. Now you are saying they should be better passive tankers.
Thats a big difference.
And unless they change stacking there is pretty much no way any Gallente ship is going to match a drake(not to mention a vulture) in both resists and shields persecond.
Wherever you went - here you are.
|
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2006.12.12 18:48:00 -
[63]
The best a low slot can currently provide for tanking is 20% additional tank per slot with an SPR... tho you can only use so many if you plan to use Invuln fields because of the massive cap regen reduction. PDS provide a 13-14% tanking increase I believe for passive tanks and a little more for active.
On the other hand, mids provide anywhere from 15% to 30-50% increased tanking. Extenders can provide amazing boosts for the first mod or two installed, around 30-80% increased tanking in many cases for medium sized ships. Shield Boost Amps add 30-36% for active tanks.
So saying lows help tanking more than mids is a bit off. I'd say they are just about even all things considered. Active tanks get a bit more out of mids than passive tanks tho.
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.12 19:24:00 -
[64]
ôAnd unless they change stacking there is pretty much no way any Gallente ship is going to match a drake(not to mention a vulture) in both resists and shields persecond.ö
ôSee you are confused. First you were saying Gallente wre better passive tanker.ö
Well first there is not stacking penalty on the low slot models which gallante use.
Did you click on my Eos link? ItÆs close to a Vulture tank yet does far more damage which in my mind makes it a much better ship and tank. A tank that can do nothing but tank is mostly useless. Fit your ship for a job then fit the tank. My Eos can tank well over 1300DPS while still dealing good damage to the enemy. ItÆs a match for a Vulture anyday.
I am not confused I said it depends on how you define better passive tanks. If you role-play like I do in game and use best shield recharge then Gallente are the best. If you go by best overall ship with tank then Gallente can win as well depending on the ship class. If you go for pure tank Gallente used to win in the battleship category but after the patch now lose. As for the BC well Caldari win if you go by tank alone with Gallente right behind them. But being right behind does not mean they are rubbish.
ôNow you are saying they should be better passive tankers.ö
I was talking about different ship classes. For 3 years Gallente where the best battleship passive tankers now after the patch they are not in the battleship class. As for the BC class I still prefer Gallente passive tanks to Caldari as the overall ship is better for Gallente. In fact for a long time you never even had Caldari passive tanking. The main reason Caldari pulled ahead is the T2 mid slot passive tank modules came out but the low slow T2 modules never did. As soon as the T2 low slot modules come out Gallente will go back to be number 1 at passive tanking.
Its not a case of 1 race is better then the other. It all depends on which ship and what job your talking about. Take my Gallente Stealth Bomber it makes a good passive tank yet the Caldari bomber is useless as a passive tank. But now the Caldari battleship is better then the Gallente BS.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Ghoest
|
Posted - 2006.12.12 19:54:00 -
[65]
I looked at your link. Those are horrible resists compared to a tanked Vulture.
And the BC(or CC) class is where Passive tanking is at. If you want to say it doesnt count then whats the point of talking really?
And its not just since the last patch or even since Red Moon. The Ferox has been the best passive tank for a long time.
Wherever you went - here you are.
|
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2006.12.12 20:51:00 -
[66]
"My Eos can tank well over 1300DPS while still dealing good damage to the enemy. ItÆs a match for a Vulture anyday."
When you say it can tank 1300 dps, does that mean it can sit there forever and tank 1300 dps for hours? Or does that mean it can handle 1300 dps long enough for you to kill off ships to drop the DPS down low enough that you can survive? There is a difference.
Your ships max tank is, imo, the total damage it can handle indefinitely.
Saying it can tank 1300 dps requires you to say for how long it can tank that dps or how much dps you need to do to lower the enemy dps to such a point that you can indefinitely handle them. Do you understand?
When I list a tank a ship has it is without reservation. It can always withstand the dps I list forever. They can all handle quite a lot more dps but for certain periods of time... so I havn't currently tried to list those or claim any such numbers as it requires a lot of explanation to do so.
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2006.12.12 21:16:00 -
[67]
That specific Eos setup Pottsey posted right there has roughly almost 108 peak shield recharge rate, and quite uneven shield resists. As you might have noticed, it's heavily biased against hybrid weapons fire (kin/therm damage), almost decent explosive resists and next to no EM resists.
The DPS tanked with that setup is 139/348/2211/645.
I can only suppose that playing around with different hardners you might get more even-resist-setups that might just tank close to the magical 1300 DPS listed figure on average, probably assuming purger rigs fitted too.
_
My skills | Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2006.12.12 22:24:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Shadarle on 12/12/2006 22:24:39
Lol. There is no way that linked ship tanks 1300 dps across all 4 resists which is what I list my tanks as. It may tank 1300 kinetic damage... perhaps even 1300 Kin/Therm, but most definitely not 1300 Em/Expl/Kin/Therm. So if the criteria involved is only 2 resists then I could easily find a lot of ships that tank in the 1000's of DPS.
EDIT> Note, my posts arn't directed to you Akita. I agree with some of your points in fact :)
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Kldraina
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 02:36:00 -
[69]
Just because a Ferox can mount a stronger passive tank than a Dominix, doesn't mean that a Ferox is better when passive tanked, than a Dominix is when passive tanked. |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 03:24:00 -
[70]
"Just because a Ferox can mount a stronger passive tank than a Dominix, doesn't mean that a Ferox is better when passive tanked, than a Dominix is when passive tanked."
I'll just wait for you to show someone who says otherwise. Until then, thanks for that comment... it adds a lot to the discussion.
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 04:54:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Akita T on 13/12/2006 04:55:59
Well, I could say that... it is significantly better in fact, if you know how to use it.
Ferox, 5 launchers, 200-ish DPS with maxed skills.
Dominix, 5 Ogre IIs, 900-ish DPS with maxed skills, and highs free for NOS/Neuts combo.
...and about the same passive shield-tank.
_
My skills | Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 07:24:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Shadarle on 13/12/2006 07:24:52
And then we take into account that the Domi is a Battleship, not a battlecruiser and we realize it was a stupid comparison.
I don't even understand why the comparison is made in the first place... but thats another issue altogether :)
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 11:08:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2006 11:15:39
ôI looked at your link. Those are horrible resists compared to a tanked Vulture.ö
No its not. Show me a Vulture that can do that well and make my resists look horrible. ItÆs a ship I use every day so itÆs a real setup not one made to tank as good as possible and do nothing else. Also I role-play and used passive hardeners instead of active even though active are better. So why donÆt you make a Vulture up with passive hardeners that makes my resistance look horrible. Kin and Thermal only. I fight serps and donÆt use active hardeners so thereÆs no point and no way to boost explosive and EM as there are no passive to all resistance module.
I also said an Eos can match a Vulture not that an Eos is much better. I only wanted to show Gallante can passive tank well after you said they cannot.
öAnd the BC(or CC) class is where Passive tanking is at. If you want to say it doesnt count then whats the point of talking really?ö
I didnÆt say BC do not count I said you can passive tank lots of classÆs and which race is better depends on the ship class your talking about.
öAnd its not just since the last patch or even since Red Moon. The Ferox has been the best passive tank for a long time.ö
Then why does it hold none of the shield records? I donÆt see Caldari ships coming close to 37seconds let alone 100seconds shield recarge.
ôWhen you say it can tank 1300 dps, does that mean it can sit there forever and tank 1300 dps for hours? Or does that mean it can handle 1300 dps long enough for you to kill off ships to drop the DPS down low enough that you can survive?ö
Unless I posted the wrong screenshot its 1300dps for ever with high resistance and high hitpoints used as a buffer to kill enough ships to lower the DPS down to 1300 or less as they do a lot more then 1300 in the complex I live in. Its also 100% passive with passive hardeners so it could be made better with active hardeners.
I also sometimes friendly dual with the locals who have hybrid weapons kin/therm damage like the serp rats.
ôThere is no way that linked ship tanks 1300 dps across all 4 resists which is what I list my tanks as.ö
I never said it was across all 4 resistanceÆs. I just lodged on took a screenshot of my current ship and posted it to prove Gallante can passive tank good. If I get time I will try and make a 1000+ DPS across all 4 resistanceÆs tonight.
ôAnd then we take into account that the Domi is a Battleship, not a battlecruiser and we realize it was a stupid comparison.ö
Its still the same with the BCÆs a Gallente end up with a slightly weaker tank but much more flexible ship with higher DPS output. A Gallente BC with drones alone beats the DPS on a Caldari BC.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 16:23:00 -
[74]
Is the ship you linked to using any faction gear or is it all T1/T2/Named mods?
I can get a nighthawk up to 1219.51 Kinetic, 903.35 Thermal tanking with passive t2 resist mods and 1648.94 Kinetic, 1066.46 Thermal tanking with active t2 resist mods. It has 12870.40 shields and 297.98 regen with 93.45% Kin, 89.88% Therm resists. It could with withstand an alpha strike of 196543 Kinetic damage or 127115 Thermal damage. Its tank across all 4 resists is 804.83 dps and it breaks 1000 dps tanking for Kin/Therm and Expl/Kin.
As soon as I log in and can get the stats of a vulture I'll test that ships tank out as well.
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 17:06:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2006 17:10:54
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2006 17:08:37
I think it had 1 faction module on but not 100% sure as I rushed the screenshot. I just loged in quick and took a screenshot so if the last thing I did was the complex is was faction, if it was a local fight it would be T2.
As soon as I can get on will make a T2 only setup up. Assuming I even have any T2 invul fields got a feeling all mine are all faction from back in the day when no one used invul fields so they where dirt cheap. I also didnÆt have lvl 5 passive resistance skills back when I took that screen shot so a new one is in order. The skill should be done any day.
EDIT: I noticed you used active hardners I donÆt have any T2 active hardeners. Will see if I can borrow some for a closer comparison to your setup.
EDIT2: Did you mean active invul field or single hardeners? I want to get my setup as close as yours as I can.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 17:16:00 -
[76]
I used specific hardeners in that setup, but that doesn't really matter... what matters is the overall tank/resists... whatever yields the best result. Copying setups between ships is obviously not the best solution, each ship does better with slightly different fittings.
The reason I asked about faction mods is because with faction hardeners or amps the nighthawk could easily get a few hundred more tanking DPS. Also, which implants are you using? I'll guess you have 5% shield HP/Regen implants, but perhaps not. I had 3% implants in my setup.
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 17:28:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2006 17:32:42
ôCopying setups between ships is obviously not the best solution, each ship does better with slightly different fittings.ö
Very true still I like to keep the price value similar. If I did have a passive faction module fitted I should swap it for passive or active T2. As for implants I used the best out. No rigs yet.
Just to be clear this it to prove to Ghoest Gallente can have good passive tanks. This is not about being much better or worse the Caldari. Only that as Gallente we match Caldari. In the Command Ship class.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 18:11:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Shadarle on 13/12/2006 18:17:13
Weird... for the life of me I cannot figure out how your ship got those values to resists & shield / regen. Was that SS before Kali?
EDIT> I think I figured it out. You're using a siege warfare link - Shield Harmonizing module. I don't have my spreadsheet capable of using those yet, but I think I'll add them in now.
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 18:25:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Shadarle on 13/12/2006 18:52:26
Edited by: Shadarle on 13/12/2006 18:29:20
Wow... now I see why people say the Vulture is such an amazing tank. Ran some numbers on it.
1808.83Kinetic Tank
1075.87 Thermal Tank
Resists of:
30.00%72.00%93.75%89.50%
16484 Shields
364.80 Regen
862.38 Averaged Resists Vs All 4 Types
That is with NO warfare link module (as I can't calculate them yet) but I can promise you the tank will be completely insane when that is added in.
EDIT> This was with passive regen mods and 1 invuln. Also with level 4 passive skill, not 5... I can't believe just how amazingly powerful a tank this ship has passively.
Update>
2550.87 Kinetic
1227.77 Thermal
Resists:
43.69%77.48%95.93%91.55%
1105.81 Averaged Vs All 4 Resists
17308.20 Shields
417.24 Regen
2 Kin Hards, 1 Invu, 1 Warfare Link Mod
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente
Enheduanni Foundation
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 20:16:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2006 20:18:47
ôWeird... for the life of me I cannot figure out how your ship got those values to resists & shield / regen. Was that SS before Kali?ö
You found it so hard as my skills where at different levels and without lvl 5 passive skills. As you figured out I have a siege warfare link with a midnlink implant. An often overlooked cheap implant for passive tankers even if you donÆt use warfare links the mindlink still boosts your shield hitpoints. The SS was after Kali but before the last 2 patch's.
What resistance from the Shield Harmonizing module module does a Vulture get with mindlink and lvl 5 command ship skill? I get 22.5% on my Eos.
ôResists of:
30.00% 72.00% 93.75% 89.50%ö
How did you get that? ShouldnÆt that 30 be 25 or a lot higher then 30?
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Shadarle
|
Posted - 2006.12.13 20:49:00 -
[81]
You're absolutely right. The EM resists on both those setups is actually a good deal higher, I forgot to list the Vulture getting the 5% per BC level to EM and Expl... I did account for it on the other two resists tho :) So it's average tank is actually a lot better than I listed... it still has the same amazing Kin/Therm resists tho.
**********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared!
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |