Well, the current NPE does not give experience. How do you propose to solve that?

Yes we know this is limiting the number of people that will play eve and it is limiting the people that frankly I don't want playing the game anyway. If you are looking for easy win- instant gratification gaming then I am glad to see you go back to all those other games and stay out of my glorious and difficult game.

As for this I am not going back and reading your post.

..This game does an excellent job of giving you skills at a rate that you can effectively take them in and make use of them. Giving them to you any faster won't help your learning curve issue.

Here is the question that you did not answer.
If they join up and start losing the expensive ships that high SP would allow them to fly would they stay in the game long enough for their personal skills to catch up and minimize or eliminate those expensive ship losses?

Players like this simply convert real cash money into ISK by buying plex

So where is the proper balance for a new character?
Personally I would like to see CCP remove the bonus remaps and other gimmicks they have tried to ease the SP issue and start new character with an already trained solid set of basic skills. So I guess that would open up a debate on what would be a solid set of basic skills.

Do not confuse killing rats with killing a real player who has some skill.

Ever engage a player target right click auto orbit?


Let me rephrase...ever engage a smart player target right click auto orbit?


Bad things happen in the latter case. They do a crazy ivan (hard jink), the autopilot goes wonky real fast. Worst case its course correction is a straight 180 degree turn. Smart player takes this chance to rip you a new one and have their way with it. It allows them to close really fast. You are also at virtually 0 traversal.....you get tagged hard.

Or it gives the few seconds for target to warp off.

Worth noting autopilot does this on target hops as well. Test this in pve if you'd like. Line up 5 targets....orbit each one. Kill target 1, set orbit on 2. This flightpath will be anything but smooth and graceful most times. Do this at fleet level ops and your ship will all over the place really. This can be bad...especially if playing in falloff range. Those x-over points can be hair thin. Cross them and watch the damage drop fast.


Manual flight gives the benefit of better range control in changing situations. It can almost be like pool. You aren't thinking sink the 5 ball. You are thinking I hit 5 ball a certain way to drop it and line up the shot to follow from the rebound of the 5 shot.

..Have all the fun and all the content RIGHT NOW, well why bother playing? The game is just another FPS or whatever.

Did you deliberately misquote me? FPS have servers the size of 16-100 players max. And nobody plays the same one for much more than a year. Not the same as a MMO at all. Not even in the same galaxy.

Progression has worked so well for making players stick with a game for longer that even instant gratification games like COD and BF have adopted level systems.

So eve is a game that can keep all players with skill and socialization, but also keeps players with progression.

And replaced with what? You mean i can just get a new toon straight into a titan? Why would i ever even bother playing, since now its pay to win (PLEX buys as many ships as i want, i can just start new characters when i need more pilots).

The skill system gives meaningful choice. What i train has an opportunity cost. Just being able to do everything RIGHT NOW CUS I WANT TO is a facebook game. You will need your credit card for these free games.

Are you being deliberately ignorant?
Progression mechanics have become widespread across just about every genre of game there is. FPS, Strategy, Racing, fighting games etc etc. Which iteration of CoD or BF4 players play is irrelevant. They play games with progression mechanics, and CoD itself, the most played FPS of all time, was relatively unfamous until it adopted a leveling system.

The progression is the challenge that you refer to and the fantasy of big ships you also refer to, becomes quickly unspectacular when you can fly them out the box (40% of players leave once they have 'leveled up their raven'). Taking something basic and permeable enough to consider your own, like a new character, and growing with it during a game is challenging, immersive and rewarding. You've taken someones work, and applied it with a narrow mind.

The way EVE works does not mean you are hopelessly out matched when you are new. Having loads of SP does not make you excellent at PvP and having little SP does not make you poor at PvP. The sandbox maintains that friends give you more power than SP and the fact that every skill is capped at level 5 means that new players can become just as powerful as 10 year vets in certain ships quick enough.

Prob(Win A fight | SP, Skill)

The effect of SP on that probability is small.

Regarding the number of new accounts...I got bad news. Go look at the Bass diffusion model. The best strategy for CCP is not to go for new accounts, but to get those people with accounts who are not logging in to start logging in again. Your aim, the OPs aim, and everyone with a similar position to yours is way off the mark.

Our main empirical findings using videogame console sales, prices and software titles data
from the 32-64 bit generation are as follows. Both prices and software availability have significant
effects on hardware growth. Prices have a bigger effect on sales of consoles in the initial time
periods, while the number of software titles in the market has a bigger effect in the later time periods.

The benefits of no SP include showing a 1 week sub how to 1v10. I'd like you to find an example where that's plausible with starter-level SP. That 1vAll playstyle is prevalent in videos, and it's a major example (for fresh subs) of a goal, because of the obvious blobbing trends.

Probably the most profound benefit of no SP is the "word-of-mouth" recruitment options. What if a movie star finds the game? What's the likelihood of being interested in a spaceship game that only allows frigates for the majority of beginner action? ..What about for flying anything? The more interesting design is the system with the most chance of being suggested after playing it. Even if the movie star can afford a character, the low chance of that also being plausible or interesting for the relevant "crew", whether acquaintances or social media followers, disincentivizes that chain reaction -- in other words, if there's nothing to talk about, there's nothing to recommend.

*Drivel*

Removing SP is not going to make the game a new product.

All games have some sort of process for moving ahead. In games like World of Warcraft, World of Tanks, and War Thunder it is via playing the game and some sort of leveling.

Its not unfounded. Bliizzard knows full well they get re-sub surges on new expansions. then months later....they hemorrhage subs as many players "beat" the expansion, say I have raided till I puked, reached new max level and done it all and leave. You see the WoW is dying threads quite regularly if you look around. Usually on other gaming forums when those zealots are trying to make their game seem better. Always comes in the midtime between expansions.

Then after new expansions...Wow is alive again. these aren't new subs exclusively. Its game fade effect. I work with quite a few people who do this. Play the crap out of expansions, get bored, leave game and say see you next expansion blizzard.

What if there was a new expansion, you came back and found leveling did nothing for you, you got everything right up front that leveling normally gives you. Would you stay for a bit then never, ever come back?

So you have to wait 20 days for the skill to finish or log in every day for 2, 3, 4, or more hours a day for 20 days to get that skill....the latter is awesome, while the former sucks? Okay....

faction items

There is only a problem of GÇ£very little to doGÇ¥ if you are here to play the game solo. This is a game where having friends is always a benefit in terms of having something to do in the game irrespective of SP. This is not a game that is particularly ideal for the solo player (note by solo I donGÇÖt mean solo PvP, but where you play the game as if everyone else was an NPCGÇöi.e. you rarely, if ever, interact with them).

SP might be there to foster group play...groups getting together to overcome their deficiencies as individual players and create something greater than the sum of the parts....like build a space empire.

Alts

Oh FFS....who said anything about guys only in frigates carving out a space empire.

Subs were not a problem when SP were even worse, so no to you logic.

True pilot mastery of ships, however, require a lot more skill training and personal experience.

Unbalancing the game to supposedly save it is not the solution. That I'm sure of.

The 'content' most people are complaining about has nothing to do with sp and is mostly complained about by vets. The content noobs are complaining about that they cant get into because they dont have the sp is not actually out of their reach.

There are bigger criticisms to the game than sp. If you truly think that the degree of a 'problem' is defined by the amount of people whining about it then get in line after; ganking, wardecs, afk cloaking, jump drive nerfs, fozzie sov, the toxic playerbase, the detached dev team, jita scams, plex prices etc etc

Whining =/= problem

That is content you aspire to participate in at some point.

*Discussion not about SP, but skillful play (which can be learned).*

*The implication that this is somehow evidence about the validity of SP.*

Sp does effect gameplay. But that in no way means that lack of sp means you are denied content.

So, now it's about reducing alts?

*Examples of games with progression, including CoD, BF, Cities Skylines, and Witcher 3*

Benefiting new players will undoubtedly have a disproportionately larger benefit to more established players. That is NOT good for game balance nor good for new players.

SP limits game play to some degree, that does not necessarily limit content. You are making an assumption that needs to be proven.

It limits it, not prohibits it.

If an option loses appeal just because you need to train a couple of hours, days or a week or two for it, the idea wasn't intersting or great to begin with.

The reliance on vet players is not really for sp. Its for game knowledge.

Removing the sp wouldn't do much to make noobs less dependent.

They weren't necessarily talking about flying a specific ship, but about other aspects of the game that are more universal.

You do not need others to fly around solo in a frigate and fight other people.

Because they stopped playing because they couldn't have what they want instantly.

And you have in no way addressed the issue of game balance. Unbalancing the game does not fix it, by definition.

A ship can be learned if it's behind gating through being told and EFT

It it is a non-sequitor and projection that people stopped playing because they did not get what they wanted instantly, then there goes your argument right down the crapper. You have just spent page after page telling us specifically this is why people are leaving the game. Now, when that does not suit you your turn around and say, "No it is not true."

So which is it? People are quitting because training times are too rough, or they are not? You simply cannot have it both ways, or if you insist, I'll spend every day logging into the forums and reporting all of your future posts in this thread as nothing but trolling.

I didnt say it was exclusive. Youre trying to say noobs depend on vets for their sp. Which is wrong.

Your also saying a noob is better off flying big ships out the box, but theres a long history of ALODs involving bought characters that suggest it is not only more costly to learn the game this way but also more upsetting.

Daichi is that the noob is still earning his own SP, but that a noob can rely on more veteran players to help them obtain content and additional game play.

And why is it that you keep insisting that new players have to be competitive with the veterans. That is just daft.

No it is true. If you think it is false, explain why.

"How is relying on veteran fleets not relying on veterans for SP?" With low SP, there are fewer ship, fitting, and effectiveness options. They aren't filling stations with items, because they don't have the skill points. They aren't banding together as freshies and infiltrating sov, because they don't have the effectiveness. How is that not relying on veterans for SP?

How is it relying on sp? You dont have to be literally flying along side a vet to receive knowledge, that knowledge can be passed on by a one day old alt. And buying equipment off the market does not require sp.

Freshies are infiltrating parts of sov and they have before. And WH's and fw and high sec.

Fleets are flown without vets. Theres a list of killmails in this thread that show that.

And why are items sitting in station? Are you saying that because I can buy but cannot fit an invulnerable field II I am missing out on content despite the fact I can fit a meta version that does 80% of the job?

THATS your argument?

"Why play if it's so limited?" There's no progression reward for playing. The reply is, obviously, that this is great for some demographics, but that's only with the idea that some form of XP system is helpful. How can a game seem interesting if it's unrewarding? How can the reward of flying well-fit and great-meta ships be found if it's gated? Why is it not OK to unsub from that?

It is completely OK to unsub if this playstyle does not suit your taste. That is your choice. Everyone has different tastes and preferences. However, the playstyle itself does not need to bend so that it suits this particular kind of preference.

You do not need to fly T2 ships to have great fun in PVP, you do not need to use T2 or T3 ships in order to be efficient in PVE.

Removing SP isn't required, but it is preferred. SP doesn't provide anything but a time barrier for content. It's why some hulls have really weird pre-reqs - CCP just needed a skill with an X day training time to gate off piloting that hull. That's not an engaging system, it's a freemium game that forgot to give you the option of buying Smurfberries.

And I refuse to be content with "CONTRIBUTING" to a fight. New players aren't here to be your little sister, tagging along for the ride. If I can teach a week old player how Duffo did what he did, there's no reason they should be prevented from replicating that.

It is not about realizing whether something is great or not before you play it. Why? Isn't a game about being played and experienced?

It is about doing some research an activity and evaluating base on that research whether you want to invest time and money into the skill training. With what game experience?

However, if you already stop before the research and think, that's not worth your sub, your idea was indeed not great and your way to play games is neither wanted nor welcome in this hobby/game. What prerogative is there deciding what subs CCP and the game deserve?

Its not like 40% of the population are going to follow you.

It is absolutely what you state. You have been doing nothing but stating that any activity in the game is barred and gated behind massive SP walls that are prohibiting people from experiencing content and activities in the game. This is simply not true.

The character bazaar is there for a reason.

What if a movie star finds the game? What's the likelihood of being interested in a spaceship game that only allows frigates for the majority of beginner action? ..What about for flying anything? The more interesting design is the system with the most chance of being suggested after playing it.Even if the movie star can afford a character, the low chance of that also being plausible or interesting for the relevant "crew", whether acquaintances or social media followers, disincentivizes that chain reaction -- in other words, if there's nothing to talk about, there's nothing to recommend.

The alternative reason is that those who unsub because they cannot get the kind of instant action they want are trying to play a game that is not made for them and should not be made for them.

It's certainly one of the things keeping me subbed to EVE. The skillpoint system as it stands is extremely casual friendly, since even someone with severely limited playtime like me can earn progression. If this were like WoW, where nothing advances without significant playtime investments and the whole game is structured to favor no-lifers, I simply would not play it.

I'm not alone either, not by a long shot.

And it loses subscribers like a bucket with no bottom if they dont constantly create new expansions.

No, its been a trend with wow for years. It was more severe recently because they didnt release an expansion for longer than usual. Supposedly because they were focusing on other games.

And apparently half the eve population again.