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Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:52:00 - [31] That was not the point of suggestion #4. The idea was simply to make Amarr ships less noob-unfriendly. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus That was not the point of suggestion #4. The idea was simply to make Amarr ships less noob-unfriendly. By making them significantly weaker then projectile weapons as well as make them only be able to get back to their current standing once their ship skill is mastered, that is not noobfriendly
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:02:00 - [33] No ship in EVE(Well, maybe the Raven) is newb friendly. Mixing around the stats so instead of using more cap you get less damage doesn't change anything. You go from needing more cap to kill things because your lasers take more cap per shot, to needing more cap to kill things because you take longer to kill things. You've effectively mixed around the bonuses to come up with the same thing we already had in a different form.
Deep Throat	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:10:00 - [34] The problem with Amarr atm is plain simple. They are at the bottom of the races and have absolutly nothing special to offer (say for max skilled characters on specialized ships like the curse or absoulution and even that is limited at best) Hence all those players that have trained Amarr for long time and or want to train for Amarr are ****ed off. solution: plain and simple, give Amarr something special. -give more damage across the board (with current cap and fitting problems, this would still be balanced, although CCP through that theme of development out the window the day they let tuxford handle these things) Amarr used to have great damage potential when damage mods could be stacked, this was nerfed out of the game in the name of balance, probably due to too many gms getting ganked in low sec by pilots flying the infamous gankageddons. Needless to say this was Amarr one special and great thing. -reduce the cap usage and fitting requirements for lasers and or boost all Amarr ships for their long term buddy Capicator either one of these modifications would bring Amarr back to the table instead of sitting in the garbage can where they are right now.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:14:00 - [35] What do you prefer? Doing less damage, or not doing any at all because you ran out of cap? I know which I'd pick. Especially since your cap is life, and not only powers your guns, but your reppers/ab/web/tc/scram/etc. And since most noobs start out doing missions, where tanking > ganking, I think that doing a bit less damage for much more sustainability early on would be a big plus. As for the "no ship is noob friendly" argument, that may be true, but at least most are not noob-UNfriendly like Amarr ships are. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:18:00 - [36] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus What do you prefer? Doing less damage, or not doing any at all because you ran out of cap? I know which I'd pick. Especially since your cap is life, and not only powers your guns, but your reppers/ab/web/tc/scram/etc. And since most noobs start out doing missions, where tanking > ganking, I think that doing a bit less damage for much more sustainability early on would be a big plus. As for the "no ship is noob friendly" argument, that may be true, but at least most are not noob-UNfriendly like Amarr ships are. Umm I looked into level one missions and it is Gank >> Tank most can't even beat a amarr shield for crying out loud. You only tank on the harder level twos if your in a cruiser and higher. noobs can take the newbie ship and be happy. doing less damage but over a longer time is worthless as you'll soon doo too little damage to break tanks as they blow uou to hel\| and back.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:28:00 - [37] I didn't mean just level 1 and 2 missions (and even on those, you need a good tank to get through i.e. Worlds Collide). The same problems are going to plague you once you start doing level 3s and 4s in a BC/BS. As for damage, the time you would have otherwise spent on spaceship command skills to keep your cap drain under control can be brought to bear on rapid fire and surgical strike, which will help you with ALL the classes of ships in the Amarr lineup instead of one precisely. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:32:00 - [38] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I didn't mean just level 1 and 2 missions (and even on those, you need a good tank to get through i.e. Worlds Collide). The same problems are going to plague you once you start doing level 3s and 4s in a BC/BS. As for damage, the time you would have otherwise spent on spaceship command skills to keep your cap drain under control can be brought to bear on rapid fire and surgical strike, which will help you with ALL the classes of ships in the Amarr lineup instead of one precisely. Err... but then you'd have a ship with low damage potential since you didn't train the shipskill. You'd still end up having to train both Spaceship Command skills and Gunnery skills, just as you do now.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:37:00 - [39] Yes, you would, but you wouldn't be kicked in the teeth by cap drain every time you take your Amarr ship out for combat while you are skilling up. Which is my entire point: making Amarr ships less noob unfriendly. At my (and yours, I imagine) level, either way wouldn't affect me anymore, but it sure as hell would for the guy who's just jumped into an Executioner for the first time. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:37:00 - [40] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I didn't mean just level 1 and 2 missions (and even on those, you need a good tank to get through i.e. Worlds Collide). The same problems are going to plague you once you start doing level 3s and 4s in a BC/BS. As for damage, the time you would have otherwise spent on spaceship command skills to keep your cap drain under control can be brought to bear on rapid fire and surgical strike, which will help you with ALL the classes of ships in the Amarr lineup instead of one precisely. um you can plain speed the world collide for the most part. Your not longer a newbie if you can run level threes smoothly and on a normal basis. How does spaceship command help damage at all?
Archaon Dechalus	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:40:00 - [41] One other problem I see with amarr is the optimal range of their 'short range' weapons. You can't combine this with current jammers or webbers (not including the 200mil worth 15km webbers). Just on a side note AD
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:45:00 - [42] Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 09/12/2006 06:45:40 You can speed through Worlds Collide, but that's just one example, and it's not fun to simply speed through. I help newbies once in a while, and Worlds Collide is always the one that give them trouble. As for running level 3s smoothly, obviously, you ain't a noob when they ARE running smoothly. That's self evident. But again, I must reiterate that the idea was to help those that CAN'T run them smoothly yet. I remember when I began running level 3, man, was I ever rushing to raise my BC skill since my cap was unsustainable. Then learned to fly a Ferox and laughed at the noob-unfriendliness of Amarr ships. Finally, I didn't mean Spaceship Command specifically; hence why I used skillS. Amarr Frigate, Amarr Cruiser, Amarr Battleship all fall into Spaceship Command skills. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:54:00 - [43] ok tell me some pros for ammar past a rare few ships and unlimited ammo tho that ammo is weaker the the slave's ammo
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 07:04:00 - [44] Are you asking me? Regardless: -Good range on pulses -Good damage against shields -Excellent in gangs/fleets -Good tracking on long range turrets -No ammo (you mentionned it, but it IS a fact) -No reload time (same as above) -Excellent tanking (compromised by laser cap usage, but that is a different issue) -2nd best average speed IIRC (which is wrong, in my view, but whatever) -Godly DPS Does this make Amarr 100% ok? No, of course not. There are problems, which are well known (cap usage/EANM being chief amongst them), but I've flown every T1 combat ship up to BC and flew battleships of all races except Gallente, and I came back to Amarr. There are problems, but they can be overcome untill they are fixed. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 07:19:00 - [45] I just wanted the pros of amarr again i kinda forget them as i never flew amarr full time yet. Their on the to do list after getting adv learning skills to 4 each. I think the only key thing to help boost amar is a 20-40% damage mod boost, they should have more powerful guns from how much cap they cost as well as not being able to switch their ammo, simular to the gallente position.
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:16:00 - [46] Vincent Almasy: Can you elaborate on this please? are there plans to change the Amarr damage profile and if i'm reading your post correctly are there are plans to introduce more Amarr advanced skills? One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Larsonist	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:24:00 - [47] I am encroaching on 30 million skill points as of now. I have not really posted my concerns regarding amarr damage until now, so i will be as simple as i can. With almost 10 million in just gunnery for beams and pulses i have come to a conclusion. Amarr damage is acceptable for missions and ratting. Amarr damage is mediocre at best concerning pvp. Its not that the guns and damage out put is the problem, they are fine if not perfectly balanced. The problem is the entire community is globally "prepared" to deal with amarr damage output through amarrian lack of damage damage diversity. point being, its great being amarr if somebody forgets to fit thermal tanking
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.09 18:42:00 - [48] Great point...Amarr are good at ratting (in fairness all races can rat if you have a few decent gunnery skills) and are good in lvl 1/2/3 missions. Where Amarr struggle is in lvl 4 missions and they get into real trouble pvp. One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Talthrus Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.09 18:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Great point...Amarr are good at ratting (in fairness all races can rat if you have a few decent gunnery skills) and are good in lvl 1/2/3 missions. Where Amarr struggle is in lvl 4 missions and they get into real trouble pvp. If you could call not using up ammo "good" then I guess Amarr is good at ratting. The raven is a much better choice in almost all ratting situations (and pvp too, I might add). ----------------------
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 19:20:00 - [50] -Does a increasement of a laser's base damage modifier increase, atleast for mid weapons, of 25-30% sound fair? This is befor ship specialists skills come into play mind you. -Befor I hear a single gallente talk about blaster damage being incroached on, you are still much much more damaging with your blaster weapons as your ships have additional bonus and they have naturaly greater dps. -The amarr would have another change, higher tracking[but not a 100% hit chance like a missile]. The reason is from them being lasers, the line of sight was a great way of saying it. Laser modifiers are aleady the same for pulse and beam, have amarr be the race that accells at longer ranged assults. The rp reason for this is, to try and stay out of the attack reang to peak attack range of the slaves[matar] and high tracking[which only needs a slight mod for bean and a more of a boost in pulse] to keep tracking those ex-slave ships. -Now befor a matar talks about their damage being gimped still I would say that for some of their ammo they need to be looked at as their ammo doesn't really have a high emp damage type ammo combared to a high ex damage type. The Matar acell at quickly damaging their opponents with different ammo types and being jack of all trades so I would support matar loading times to be shaved to 7.5sec and maybe down to 5.0sec to be fair. -With this change the cap could remain the same or give the amarr a small boost with an aditional 2.5% cap redution onto the ship skills that would change the total 65% redution if this still ment that they used more cap then gallente blasters did, as amarr use their cap as a ammo tank in many ways so they much still have the highest cap, so this idea is the most exspendable. ------------------------------------------------------------ Please give feed back for each of these ideas, and I also want input from the other races for this subject to work in balances.
Mike5p0	Posted - 2006.12.09 19:45:00 - [51] Originally by: Siakel No, AWU does not fix the fitting issues. And yes, we do need versatility, as the Devs are unwilling to make our ships powerful enough to be limited by the lack of it. When an entire race can only shoot and tank, it needs to be the best at it. It can't be mediocre at it as we currently are. The Devs aren't willing to make this change, so they have to give us versatility. This sums it all up imo.
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.10 03:12:00 - [52] Originally by: Imechal Ravpeim Amarr ships are fine. You guys are looking for a solo I-win mobile. That's not what the Amarrians are like. They have numbers. A lot of numbers. Get a large number of Abaddons all fitted the same with a few Gaurdians to support cap and you might have one of the strongest fleets out there. Not a good argument imho. So to play Amarr you need to be in a huge gang...ya that works.
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.10 03:16:00 - [53] Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Great point...Amarr are good at ratting (in fairness all races can rat if you have a few decent gunnery skills) and are good in lvl 1/2/3 missions. Where Amarr struggle is in lvl 4 missions and they get into real trouble pvp. Only true if you are ratting dark blood or sansha. Other than that it takes forever to kill the rats.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.10 06:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Imechal Ravpeim Amarr ships are fine. You guys are looking for a solo I-win mobile. That's not what the Amarrians are like. They have numbers. A lot of numbers. Get a large number of Abaddons all fitted the same with a few Gaurdians to support cap and you might have one of the strongest fleets out there. Not a good argument imho. So to play Amarr you need to be in a huge gang...ya that works. Actually, I believe a member of PIE posted about this exact concept a few months back. The backstory has the Amarr being the lower-tech, higher-numbers race, which is fine for a backstory. However, it isn't fine for gameplay, because unless you can insure that the side flying Amarr always outnumbers the enemies, this kind of balancing would essentially lead to Amarr being subpar in 99% of combat. As I've said in other threads, one of Amarr's biggest issues is the lack of versatility, also a 'backstory balancing' act... at least partially. If one Race has absolutely no versatility, but instead relies entirely on the advanced tactic 'Shoot each other 'til someone dies', they need to be the best at that. As CCP isn't willing to make Amarr ships this powerful in straight-out combat(And to be honest, if they did, idiots who tried to do the same thing with other race's ships instead of using their versatility to overcome the Amarr ship's superiority in DPS/Tank would flood the forums.) they have to give Amarr versatility. You can't have all the drawbacks of a one-path race with none of the benefits, it just doesn't work.
Senor Pablo	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:00:00 - [55] Apoc: can fit 8 guns pecial Ability: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per level. No damage bonuses for using lazer beams or even sharks with freaking lazer beams. Fit whatever guns you like. If you dont like lazers dont use them thank god i solved your problem
Shugo Kazuma	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:07:00 - [56] Originally by: Imechal Ravpeim Amarr ships are fine. You guys are looking for a solo I-win mobile. That's not what the Amarrians are like. They have numbers. A lot of numbers. Get a large number of Abaddons all fitted the same with a few Gaurdians to support cap and you might have one of the strongest fleets out there. Saying that is all good and well, until you get a dose of reality and realize that most people are playing as Caldari characters and that in game populations look nothing like what's put forth in the backstory.
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:51:00 - [57] Originally by: Talthrus Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Great point...Amarr are good at ratting (in fairness all races can rat if you have a few decent gunnery skills) and are good in lvl 1/2/3 missions. Where Amarr struggle is in lvl 4 missions and they get into real trouble pvp. If you could call not using up ammo "good" then I guess Amarr is good at ratting. The raven is a much better choice in almost all ratting situations (and pvp too, I might add). Yep, from what i've learnt the Ravan has a pretty awesome reputation in both mission running and PvP. I think i'll be training up some extra skills to have a go at flying one in a while. One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Kayden Drake Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:45:00 - [58] Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Yep, from what i've learnt the Ravan has a pretty awesome reputation in both mission running and PvP. I think i'll be training up some extra skills to have a go at flying one in a while. Raven is overrated simply because its the easiest on the SP to fly. Thus you get a lot of people w/o the comparable skills to use a gunboat who say the raven is the best. I run lvl 4s in Amarr BS's and other gun boats all of the time, and frankly have more success than I do with the raven (both sets of skills are maxed). And its cheaper to run. The only real advantage the raven has is that it can just fly to the next jumpgate while spewing missles, whereas gunboats have to worry about range. But as long as you know what your doing your fine, and frankly it makes lvl 4s more interesting and fun. Just DONT take on Angels with lasers lol... leads to looooong fights. As to the "Amarr Problem", I agree that EM/Thermal ratios on the crystals should be switched, and maybe EANM resist bonus lowered a little, but nothing TOO drastic. One thing people dont seem to bring up so much is that the Amarr are the most cap dependant race. Before Revalations, that was fine, and I like the idea in general. But now with holding your capacitor being more important b/c the longer fights and tanking being more important in general, NOS's getting no nerf (which was insanely stupid IMO and directly lead to almost all PVP ships fitting NOS's now), Amarr have been ****** over even more. Thus, I think that another "fix" the amarr problem is nerfing NOS's somewhat. Label some ships as "Nos ships" and make using NOS's on non NOS ships not very effective. Or simply maybe lower the amount they steal by 20% or so.
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:56:00 - [59] Originally by: Kayden Drake Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Yep, from what i've learnt the Ravan has a pretty awesome reputation in both mission running and PvP. I think i'll be training up some extra skills to have a go at flying one in a while. Raven is overrated simply because its the easiest on the SP to fly. Thus you get a lot of people w/o the comparable skills to use a gunboat who say the raven is the best. I run lvl 4s in Amarr BS's and other gun boats all of the time, and frankly have more success than I do with the raven (both sets of skills are maxed). And its cheaper to run. The only real advantage the raven has is that it can just fly to the next jumpgate while spewing missles, whereas gunboats have to worry about range. But as long as you know what your doing your fine, and frankly it makes lvl 4s more interesting and fun. Just DONT take on Angels with lasers lol... leads to looooong fights. As to the "Amarr Problem", I agree that EM/Thermal ratios on the crystals should be switched, and maybe EANM resist bonus lowered a little, but nothing TOO drastic. One thing people dont seem to bring up so much is that the Amarr are the most cap dependant race. Before Revalations, that was fine, and I like the idea in general. But now with holding your capacitor being more important b/c the longer fights and tanking being more important in general, NOS's getting no nerf (which was insanely stupid IMO and directly lead to almost all PVP ships fitting NOS's now), Amarr have been ****** over even more. Thus, I think that another "fix" the amarr problem is nerfing NOS's somewhat. Label some ships as "Nos ships" and make using NOS's on non NOS ships not very effective. Or simply maybe lower the amount they steal by 20% or so. While there might not be too much 'cap carping' on this thread, see this one for more Amarr woes: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=439776 . As for the Raven, you said it exactly when you said 'spewing misiles'. I like the idea about 'NOS Ships' as lets face it in PvP there is allways one or two ships in a gang which specialise in nossing the oppostion. Either make it impossible to fit a nos onto 'normal' ships, restrict it to Interceptors/Interdictors/Recon Ships, or lower its energy drain along with its range. One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Larsonist	Posted - 2006.12.10 10:14:00 - [60] agreed. The Raven is trully a noobs mission runner. I hate to say that, but it must be said. One can get alot of bang for their buck our of the raven and not be required to have massive sp's. I only had 500k in missle skills and was able to solo level 4's in a raven a loooong time ago

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