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gu o Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.08 21:27:00 - [1] Edited by: gu o on 08/12/2006 21:39:13 First off This is my main character with 12.5 mil sp. (yes I am still a noob) I loved the amarrian ships when I firsted started the game hence my choice in races. I have trained amarr for the entire time I have played the game, focusing mostly with large ships. Namely the battleships (they are the coolest in the game ya know) Anyways I have found myself at a massive dissadvantage to any other race pilot even with less than 1/2 the skills I have. It was to my dismay that I have learned time after time my lasers just simply do not do enough damage to any tanked enemy. At first I thought "wow this race is horrid how can anyone use them" but then after a day I looked back and realized I have terrible skills. SO I went about trying to get my skills to the "good" catagory. I am not about to say my skills are elite by any streach of the imagination, but they are not bad at the same time. I was so dissapointed to findout that even with large energy turret lvl 5, bs 5, weapon upgrade lvl 4, surgical stike lvl 5, and a slew of other skills. My damage was still very easy to tank. I am not hear to sound like someone "bitc*ing and moaning" about how crap this is and tux fix it now!!!!1. But simply to express my thought on the amarrian "issues". To the meat of this post... I have come to the conclusion that lasers, well, are not very good. I think several seemingly easy changes could fix the entire amarrian issue with lasers if: A) The cap use of lasers was reduced 25%. Now before you flip out read the next part... B) The 10% bonus to cap use of lasers is removed from all ship and replaced with a 5% damage. Oh boy better get out the fire shield... Before you flame away listen for a minute... I really truely believe this to be a fair and practicle method of fixing the "Amarr problem" I think just about everyone who has flown the larger scale amarr ships, the battleships to be exact would agree this is a fairly reasonable "fix". The cap use would in fact go UP over all, but at the same time make our damage go up. This would help compensate for the extreme resistances to almost every tank in eve. It is sad when just putting on an eanm or two completely factors out one race's ships. This boost in damage would probably level the playing field some, making amarr a decent race to fly with. I am open to arguments and/or suggestions but please there is no need to flame me for wanting to be able to fight against other ship types... Thanks for your time, GU O
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.08 21:39:00 - [2] No. Amarr has problems. Cap use is one of them. Harshest penalties for downgrading turrets is another one. Damage types is another. Fitting issues is yet another. EM damage is a biggy. Absolute lack of versatility is a big one, too. The Abaddon's also an issue. But we don't need more damage. You don't fix a race by just adding damage. We need fixes for our problems, and most of our ships(not all, but most) don't need more raw DPS than they already have.
gu o Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.08 21:56:00 - [3] Edited by: gu o on 08/12/2006 22:19:27 Originally by: Siakel No. Amarr has problems. Cap use is one of them. Harshest penalties for downgrading turrets is another one. Damage types is another. Fitting issues is yet another. EM damage is a biggy. Absolute lack of versatility is a big one, too. The Abaddon's also an issue. But we don't need more damage. You don't fix a race by just adding damage. We need fixes for our problems, and most of our ships(not all, but most) don't need more raw DPS than they already have. Well man, While I do agree that these are all lissues faceing amarr they are most certainly not something that cannot be over come. The fitting issues is somthing that can be *fixed with advanced weapon upgrades, and some tricky fittings. For example to fit the best of the guns you might not have cpu to fit the T2 hardeners, eanm II's, Large armour repair T2. But you can make adjustments, the ships are do-able. YOU also addressed the EM issue. Which is where I think that the buff in damage would maybe be enough to make up for the EM resistance. This basis for the Em resistance is very noticable, take a look at the standard %resistance of em on every minmatar ship. 70%. Thats alot...heck with just one eanm the resistance rises significantly armour tanked minmatar ship with just ONE EANM II WITHOUT armour comp skills gives resistaces of: (M)76%-EM (G)68%-EM (A)68%-EM (A)28%-XP (A)28%-XP (M)36%-XP (T)40%-KI (L)52%-KI (A)40%-KI (A)48%-TH (L)36%-TH (R)48%-TH It is obvious to see that this is a very serious issue with 75% of eve races. They all have naturally high resistances. The caldari have shield tanks so they typically do not count but even their untanked armour is high (C)60%-EM (A)10%-XP (L)25%-KI (D)45%-TH I was trying to point out these are somewhat simple fixes. As for diversity, are you serious what did you think you were getting into? Just by reading the race description you can tell they are a one track mind. "Smash em hard and tank the beating" all of our battleships are made on this premace, well most. The abaddon runs with the "take the beating" part while also giving more hurt. And tb the abba is a decent ship, the damage output is quite noticably differnt than a geddon or apoc. After using the abba I think the 10% bonus being changed into 5% damage is the answer to the amarrian issues. You also adressed the cap usage issue. THis is a big concern with all cap using races (Amarr/gal mainly) A -25% cap use to all lasers would do justice I believe. yes my large turets would be bruning up an additional 30% cap but oh well. Thats what some skills are for, and CAP INJECTORS. gotta love them things... I reaize that fitting amarrian ships is darn near impossible without maxed out fitting skills. I think the fact that when in actual fighting we do so little damage that an addition might help to fix that no? I would take near impossible fittings as OK if I could do good damage. I do agree here tho, we do need a little help from the CCP team with fittings. I have decent fittign skills and fitting my geddon how I want is still tuff. YOu try to fit an AB/MWD, Injector, full rack for Mega Pulse's and good tank WITH Heat Sink II's. Its quite difficult. I dunno about everyone but I think a fix as such this is better than nothing at all. The damage boost is something amarr as a collective are missing, and I will bend to this one. The fittings are very hard to fit on our ships, cpu wise and pg wise.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:25:00 - [4] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 08/12/2006 22:25:41 Can you give a dps/and alpha chart for amarr pulse basic t1 then t2 and beam t1 and t2 also list ranges, then a comparison to gallente's blasters and rails and their tanges, matar autocannons and artilaries and a missile of the same class; light=small, heavy=med, ect. Give pre-reistance and post resistance for both shields and armor.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.08 23:16:00 - [5] No, AWU does not fix the fitting issues. If one ship has 1400 grid and weapons that use 90-100 Grid, and one ship has 1500 grid and weapons that use 200-250 grid, dropping 10 % grid use from both turrets isn't going to change the fact that one is screwed over. We do not need to be able to fit a full rack of beast weapons, full gank, MWD/Injector/tank/damagemods. We do need to be able to fit at least some of this stuff, which our fitting issues make impossible. And yes, we do need versatility, as the Devs are unwilling to make our ships powerful enough to be limited by the lack of it. When an entire race can only shoot and tank, it needs to be the best at it. It can't be mediocre at it as we currently are. The Devs aren't willing to make this change, so they have to give us versatility. No, increasing damage isn't the way to counter EMs uselessness. The way to fix this is to make EM damage useful again. Your change might very well make Lasers do respectable damage to EANM II/DCU tanked ships, yes. However, it would make them completely obliterate tri-hardener ships. Is this better than they currently perform? Yes. Is it balanced? Hell no. The Abaddon is not a decent ship. First reason: We did not need a third gunboat. We needed something different. We needed some versatility Second reason: Stupidly harsh cap problems. Why is it other BS can tank/gank with no absurdly harsh cap problems, but the Abaddon can't? There is no reason. Third reason: Costs three times the Armageddon's price, does not perform better than Armageddon. Why buy an Abaddon when you can get the exact same ship with more DPS and no reliance on an injector in the Armageddon? And lastly, the Amarr ships used to have a 25% capuse bonus instead of 50%. Know what? They all sucked. There's a reason it got boosted to 10%/level. In the age of Kali, with longer fights and cap-warfare winning everything, we do NOT need our ships to revert back to the high-damage, short-lived ships that they once were. This is another reason the Abaddon was a huge failure. Introducing a (supposedly) amazing ship that can only be amazing for a short while, during the same patch you make all fights last longer? Stupidest. Move. Ever.
Imechal Ravpeim Amarr International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.09 00:19:00 - [6] Amarr ships are fine. You guys are looking for a solo I-win mobile. That's not what the Amarrians are like. They have numbers. A lot of numbers. Get a large number of Abaddons all fitted the same with a few Gaurdians to support cap and you might have one of the strongest fleets out there.
Brother Tycho Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:00:00 - [7] Like your going to find enough people who are willing waste isk on Abaddons and even then you would have to drag them out of there domi/raven/tempest. There are probably less people who fly guardians than there toes on my left foot.
Asestorian Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:13:00 - [8] Originally by: Imechal Ravpeim Amarr ships are fine. You guys are looking for a solo I-win mobile. That's not what the Amarrians are like. They have numbers. A lot of numbers. Get a large number of Abaddons all fitted the same with a few Gaurdians to support cap and you might have one of the strongest fleets out there. Ok so we have no choice but to bring a fleet of Abbadons and logistics ships to beat the other races who just so happen, to have some solo pwnmobiles. I don't want a solo pwnmobile, however, I don't think Amarr should have to rely on numbers to compete with any other race, a fleet of Amarr vs a fleet of Gallente or Caldari or Minmatar with all equal skills should have equal chance of winning rather than poor chance as it seems to be atm. --- ---
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Asestorian Originally by: Imechal Ravpeim Amarr ships are fine. You guys are looking for a solo I-win mobile. That's not what the Amarrians are like. They have numbers. A lot of numbers. Get a large number of Abaddons all fitted the same with a few Gaurdians to support cap and you might have one of the strongest fleets out there. Ok so we have no choice but to bring a fleet of Abbadons and logistics ships to beat the other races who just so happen, to have some solo pwnmobiles. I don't want a solo pwnmobile, however, I don't think Amarr should have to rely on numbers to compete with any other race, a fleet of Amarr vs a fleet of Gallente or Caldari or Minmatar with all equal skills should have equal chance of winning rather than poor chance as it seems to be atm. What are the other races solo pwnmobiles and at what range are they affective at? I need to know this for: one, I wil trian to fly them if they are uber, two, to compare for amarr.
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc.	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:23:00 - [10] Edited by: Commander Thrawn on 09/12/2006 01:23:58 eamn need to be nerfed and bonus to cap needs to be changed from 10% to 15% done edit: abaddon is a lost cause. unless you use projectiles
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:43:00 - [11] it nerfed to what? Lasers are best agent shields and t2 projectile best agenst armor. if you haven't noticed, Matar t2 weapons are made to hurt armor -aka- amarr while amarr t2 are made to shield from matar high ex damage, should then you also change EANM to help the matar? Simple fix, give the amarr t1 and t2 thermal based lens, this is irl and rp logical that lasers to thermal damage, and non of that kn or ex len crap, those don't make any sence.
Dillius Archania	Posted - 2006.12.09 02:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Simple fix, give the amarr t1 and t2 thermal based lens, this is irl and rp logical that lasers to thermal damage, and non of that kn or ex len crap, those don't make any sence. Agreed
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc.	Posted - 2006.12.09 02:06:00 - [13] Originally by: Vincent Almasy it nerfed to what? Lasers are best agent shields and t2 projectile best agenst armor. if you haven't noticed, Matar t2 weapons are made to hurt armor -aka- amarr while amarr t2 are made to shield from matar high ex damage, should then you also change EANM to help the matar? Simple fix, give the amarr t1 and t2 thermal based lens, this is irl and rp logical that lasers to thermal damage, and non of that kn or ex len crap, those don't make any sence. fact of the matter is that in PVP 80% of ships are armor tankers and use omni tank. em is resisted at 75-80 % on almost all tank. shield tank only account for a few ships in games and even those ships tend to armor tank in pvp as the med can be outfitted with much more usefull mods. regardless i do beleive the both the invul field for shields and eamn for armor need to be nerfed. actually this will be my last post on the matter, the 100page amarr "whine" tread said it all. if some ppl are still clueless about the matter there's not much more then can be done to explain it.
Oedus Caro Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures	Posted - 2006.12.09 02:08:00 - [14] Well, bear with me for a minute while I disregard the EANM issue. I just want to talk about fitting. I am very often puzzled as to why laser turrets simultaneously require the largest amounts of capacitor and power grid to operate. I guess my question is, from where does the energy that creates the laser beam actually come? If it were from the reactor juice - i.e. power grid - then logically it should take no cap at all to fire a laser, just like an projectile weapon. The fact that capacitor use is so terribly high for lasers but zero for projectile weapons suggests that the developers have just the opposite idea - namely, that the energy that creates the beam comes out of the capacitor. But then we have to wonder, what causes laser turrets to use so much more power than projectile weapons... Of course, some amount should be required for aiming, and a further part for keeping the systems cool and operational, but if these are the only uses for power grid in a turret, one would expect a projectile weapon to require considerably more than a laser turret, since: i. Laser turrets must be less massive, since they do not employ massive metal barrels to contain chemical/nuclear explosions. Mostly electrical equipment. ii. Chemical/nuclear propellants are very inefficient - a lot of the energy created by the propellant will become heat rather than kinetic energy of the projectile. Does anyone else share my thoughts?
mallina Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.09 02:39:00 - [15] As stated previously, Lasers are extremely ineffective against the majority of Armor Tanks , especially when EANMs are involved. On the opposite side of the scale, Projectiles are ineffective against Shield tanks, However are able to switch ammo types for EM and Thermal damage if the need arises and whilst their base DPS is much lower, they dont require Cap to fire. Lasers simply do not have that kind of versatility. the ONLY ammo type capable of causing any major pain to an armor tanker is Conflagration because of the additional Thermal damage it deals. However, it takes several months to train for T2 large turrets, is that really fair for people with less sp?... compared to EMP and Phased Plasma which are both T1 ammo. possible solutions: (from the top of my head, numbers just examples) - Change the values of Omnitanking modules (EANM, Invul) in favour of the damage types they need to tank more (EANM II giving 17% EM, 19% Therm, 21% Kin, 23% Exp) and (Invul II changed to 28% EM, 26.5% Therm, 23.5% Kin, 22% Exp) - Remove the extra EM damage over Thermal on some of the T1 ammo types and replace it with a tertiary damage type (ie: instead of 13 EM 10 Therm, it would be 10 EM 10 Therm 3 Exp). the Exp damage dealt would be minimal (10% at most) and there would not be a T2 version of it - Swap the EM / Therm values and leave it at that (Conflagration would see no change) ----------- Turbulance
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 02:39:00 - [16] E/AMN Armor tank: 80%EM 60%TH 65E%X 60%KN -Multifrequency M: 14EM 10TH [Total After Resist] 2.8+4.0=6.8 Heavy Pulse Laser II: x3.6/5.25sec [Base Total] 24.48/5.25 = 4.66 Heavy Beam Laser II: x3.6/6.00sec [Base Total] 24.48/6.00 = 4.08 [Base Total Average] 4.37 -AntiMatter M: 14KN 10TH [Total After Resist] 5.6+4.0=9.6 Heavy Neutron Blaster II: x4.2/5.25sec [Base Total] 40.32/5.25 = 7.68 250mm RailGun II: x3.3/6.38sec [Base Total] 31.68/6.38 = 4.97 [Base Total Average] 6.325 -Fusion M: 16EX 4KN [Total After Resist] 5.6+1.6 = 7.2 425mm Autocannon II: x2.31/3.75sec [Base Total] 16.632/3.75 = 4.44 720mm Howitzer Artillery II: x6.9/15.75sec [Base Total] 49.68/15.75 = 3.15 [Base Total Average] 3.795 ------------------------------------------------------------------- If you look at this showing the top gun of each change the the turrets, the laser is better then the autocannon on this omni tank. So laser are higher damage but there is one thing that is failed to be noticed.. How many amarr ships get the 25% laser damage boost? Frigs: Amarr-1 Matar-3 Cruisers: Amarr-0[maybe the omen but that's a rof boost dual sided blade there] Matar-2[one more if you want to add for rof] BS(pre rev don't know the new one's bonus): Amarr-0[one more rof boat tho] Matar-1[plus the other had a rof] The fix now that I see it is not for the weapon choise but the ships themselves, they need to add on a damage boost or atleast a rof boost but that would start to hurt more and more with longer fights. I hope this will bring some over looked information into the light.
mallina Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.09 02:47:00 - [17] Originally by: Vincent Almasy E/AMN Armor tank: 80%EM 60%TH 65E%X 60%KN im assuming theres 1 kin 1 exp active hardener in there, in which case it isnt really an EANM tank. There's more resists to Projectiles there than there is Blasters. also, why are you using Fusion for minmatar and Multifreq/Antimatter for the others? surely it should be EMP / Multifreq / Antimatter ----------- Turbulance
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:01:00 - [18] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 09/12/2006 03:01:31 Originally by: mallina Originally by: Vincent Almasy E/AMN Armor tank: 80%EM 60%TH 65E%X 60%KN im assuming theres 1 kin 1 exp active hardener in there, in which case it isnt really an EANM tank. There's more resists to Projectiles there than there is Blasters. also, why are you using Fusion for minmatar and Multifreq/Antimatter for the others? surely it should be EMP / Multifreq / Antimatter It was using 2x EAMN II and a EX membrane II with maxed skills. This is all passive btw. I used a EX membrane because EX is the weakest resist form the gall base I used, for amarr it would of been 60 using a AMN II then the EX but that is also without a amarr +25% armor resist boost aswell. EMP isn't the highest damage type ammo. Fusion is also the best ammo agenst armor from high EX. EMP M: 10EM 8EX 4KN [Base Total] 2 + 2.8 + 1.6 = 6.4damage
Artemis Ascarii Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:28:00 - [19] Well. I'm a pure amarrian. I must say one thing. Amarr doesn't really lack damage. We have quite high damage and eat right through the shield. But what we really suffer from is Cap, PG and CPU. We have the highest PG (Yay) but our weapons use an insane amount of PG (Specially the cruiser and frig version) Next is CPU, We have the lowest CPU and therefore lack CPU for Hardeners and Heatsinks for our weapons. It can be a biatch some times to fit from the CPU PoV. But mostly we lack in Cap. Our weapons require a Cap booster (Especially with the cap warfare game Eve has turned in to) But we don't have the midslots to fit it. Unless we fly a Apoc or Abaddon. Like all ships in close to mid range we need a web to hit our targets and then we have to chose. To be able to hit our targets or to fire our weapons. Our guns (And Gallente) use alot of cap so we are cap sensetive and a passive tank is not an option. We really need alot more cap now. I have Frig, cruiser, BS and BC lvl 5 and Controlled burst lvl 4 so I should use much less then avarage cap. Well I love amarr and wouldn't change for anything. But I also love Solo flights and then there is a conflict of interest. Please make it so that Amarr can fight solo aswell in gangs. Imho we really need a cut in Cap usage. Just a few thoughts of a quite happy amarr player.
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc.	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Vincent Almasy Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 09/12/2006 03:01:31 Originally by: mallina Originally by: Vincent Almasy E/AMN Armor tank: 80%EM 60%TH 65E%X 60%KN im assuming theres 1 kin 1 exp active hardener in there, in which case it isnt really an EANM tank. There's more resists to Projectiles there than there is Blasters. also, why are you using Fusion for minmatar and Multifreq/Antimatter for the others? surely it should be EMP / Multifreq / Antimatter It was using 2x EAMN II and a EX membrane II with maxed skills. This is all passive btw. I used a EX membrane because EX is the weakest resist form the gall base I used, for amarr it would of been 60 using a AMN II then the EX but that is also without a amarr +25% armor resist boost aswell. EMP isn't the highest damage type ammo. Fusion is also the best ammo agenst armor from high EX. EMP M: 10EM 8EX 4KN [Base Total] 2 + 2.8 + 1.6 = 6.4damage most ppl fit 2 eamn II and a dc not an explosive membrane, by that logic i could say that against 2 em hardners and a thermal hardener amarr is worse then it actually is
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:33:00 - [21] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 09/12/2006 03:34:33 I based this off of my own set up, to leave yourself open agenst EX damage when I know that is my weakest point is beyond me to be honest. Especially agenst amarr when their t2 is based on ex damage.
Avera Mikou	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:37:00 - [22] Edited by: Avera Mikou on 09/12/2006 03:38:08 Increasing Amarr damage won't do anything to solve the issue. They need an area of superiority, like the other 3 races already have clearly established. Let it be fitting. Give all their ships 2 extra mid and low slots, and let their weapons and bonuses remain inferior.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:48:00 - [23] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 09/12/2006 03:49:35 Originally by: Avera Mikou Edited by: Avera Mikou on 09/12/2006 03:38:08 Increasing Amarr damage won't do anything to solve the issue. They need an area of superiority, like the other 3 races already have clearly established. Let it be fitting. Give all their ships 2 extra mid and low slots, and let their weapons and bonuses remain inferior. Weapon damage is on par with the other damages before you add in the ship bonus. They just need a bonus skill or a ship modification. A skill called crystal focusing, increase laser damage by 3.5% or 4%. Increase pulse and laser tracking, give them one more mid on some ships not all, maybe change the -10% cap to a -12.5% area if need be, the cap per shot should be a bit more then their hybrid cousin's; if hybrid cap lowers so should laser cap if that topic somes up. These changes fix damage, cap, and a specialty for amarr, unlimited ammo and insane tracking so they can track those matarian ships as they speed past.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Artemis Ascarii Well. I'm a pure amarrian. I must say one thing. Amarr doesn't really lack damage. We have quite high damage and eat right through the shield. But what we really suffer from is Cap, PG and CPU. We have the highest PG (Yay) but our weapons use an insane amount of PG (Specially the cruiser and frig version) Next is CPU, We have the lowest CPU and therefore lack CPU for Hardeners and Heatsinks for our weapons. It can be a biatch some times to fit from the CPU PoV. But mostly we lack in Cap. Our weapons require a Cap booster (Especially with the cap warfare game Eve has turned in to) But we don't have the midslots to fit it. Unless we fly a Apoc or Abaddon. Like all ships in close to mid range we need a web to hit our targets and then we have to chose. To be able to hit our targets or to fire our weapons. Our guns (And Gallente) use alot of cap so we are cap sensetive and a passive tank is not an option. We really need alot more cap now. I have Frig, cruiser, BS and BC lvl 5 and Controlled burst lvl 4 so I should use much less then avarage cap. Well I love amarr and wouldn't change for anything. But I also love Solo flights and then there is a conflict of interest. Please make it so that Amarr can fight solo aswell in gangs. Imho we really need a cut in Cap usage. Just a few thoughts of a quite happy amarr player. while amarr ships are truely not for solo pvp'ing (xcept the bastard sons Curse, Pilgrim, and arbitrator), I do agree that: A) grid requirements needs to be cutted off from the lasers B) if not that, then increase grid of amarr ships. C) make it so that amarr ships somehow have a static bonus to cap consumption. (would need to give another to the other 3 races aswell. why the C) point? well, I agree that amarr ships should have the bigges grid and cap, however I am almost certain that even if the lasers get buffed, and they increase the amarr ship's grid and cap 10 fold, they will still be fitting projectiles in the ships, even considering laser RoF/dmg bonuses. Also, I disagree with the CPU. IMHO, cpu should be the only limiting factor when fitting an amarrian ship. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
mallina Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Grimpak why the C) point? well, I agree that amarr ships should have the bigges grid and cap, however I am almost certain that even if the lasers get buffed, and they increase the amarr ship's grid and cap 10 fold, they will still be fitting projectiles in the ships, even considering laser RoF/dmg bonuses. Also, I disagree with the CPU. IMHO, cpu should be the only limiting factor when fitting an amarrian ship. Projectiles on Amarr ships have very little damage output, it is always better to use Lasers where possible (unless its the Abaddon which has trouble sustaining 8 guns even with an Injector running full time). Lasers have a good base range and damage, just horribly high base cap use and horrible damage types against 75% of PVP tanks, naturally (although are somewhat uber against the remaining 25%) ----------- Turbulance
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:42:00 - [26] Some thoughts: 1) Can't increase the grid on Amarr ships; it's the turrets that should require less grid. Otherwise, ACs will continue to reign as their lower fitting and no cap consumption will just mean an even stronger tank on Amarr ships. 2) Explo crystals: no. 3) Cap usage/limited damagetypes: would be fine if it wasn't for the omnitank madness. Ideal fix would be to make resistances on armor/shield race-based instead of being set at a base standard and then slightly modified. Some would say this would take months of fiddling, but considering how quick the HP increase was put into effect, maybe there's a hope. 4) Noob unfriendliness: one of my pet peeves about Amarr ships. You NEED to have your spaceship command skills at 4/5 to use lasers correctly. That's just dumb. Fix: reduce laser cap usage by 50%, reduce damage by 25%, change cap reduc bonus to +5% damage per level. 5) The Battleship redundancy situation: New bonuses: Abaddon: 5% damage, 10% cap reduc Apoc: 5% resists, 10% cap reduc Geddon: 5% RoF, 10% cap reduc 6) Lack of versatility: wouldn't be a problem if the "Amarr specialties" were properly implemented. Tank is good, but with projectiles, we really aren't the "turret race" by any stretch of the imagination and med range combat is a silly notion that will remain silly untill they come up with a longer-ranged scrambler. Fix that, and you've got a potable race. Also, making drones a bit more predominant wouldn't hurt. Anyways, just somethings to mull over. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus 4) Noob unfriendliness: one of my pet peeves about Amarr ships. You NEED to have your spaceship command skills at 4/5 to use lasers correctly. That's just dumb. Fix: reduce laser cap usage by 50%, reduce damage by 25%, change cap reduc bonus to +5% damage per level. Reduce laser damage? That's just pittiful, you'll put lasers under projectile damage at that point. Currently lasers are only up a natural 15% but then they fall far behind once you add in a ship's damage boost. The fall roughtly 9% beind matar weapons. Matar was made to have the lowest because they can change their ammo types to anything that is needed, amarr don't. Amarr just need a smell boost to the cap reduction and a 5% laser ship boost or if they want it easier, a atleast a skill that increases laser damage by 4% per level to match the damage. [PS] 100.75=75 \| 751.25=93.75 \| A net loss of 6.25 dmg
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:43:00 - [28] Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 09/12/2006 05:45:08 Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Dude, have you even read what I wrote? If you reduce damage by 25% but add a 5% damage bonus per level, where does that leave you at level 5? Exactly: at the same place you would be with the old way... except your cap hasn't been serial-raped while you were skilling up. Do the math: Take 100, multiply it by 75% -aka- .75[your reduction] to get 75. Now do 75 times 125% or 1.25[your boost] which is 75+(75*.25) which is 75+18.75 which equals 93.75. 93.75-100=-6.25, you lose 6.25 from your original 100. 25 is one third of 75 not one fourth, so you would need a rof bonus to get back into the same damage. [Edit] This doesn't solve the amarr damage problem still fyi, if you want those numbers you can look into the other amarr thread that is near to the top of the front page.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:45:00 - [29] Yes, dude, I saw. I have edited my post. The reduction would need to be by 20%, not 25%. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:49:00 - [30] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yes, dude, I saw. I have edited my post. The reduction would need to be by 20%, not 25%. This still doesn't solve the amarr damage issue after current ship bonus, galls are 80% higher and matar if they have their common dual bonus 44% behind.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:52:00 - [31] That was not the point of suggestion #4. The idea was simply to make Amarr ships less noob-unfriendly. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus That was not the point of suggestion #4. The idea was simply to make Amarr ships less noob-unfriendly. By making them significantly weaker then projectile weapons as well as make them only be able to get back to their current standing once their ship skill is mastered, that is not noobfriendly
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:02:00 - [33] No ship in EVE(Well, maybe the Raven) is newb friendly. Mixing around the stats so instead of using more cap you get less damage doesn't change anything. You go from needing more cap to kill things because your lasers take more cap per shot, to needing more cap to kill things because you take longer to kill things. You've effectively mixed around the bonuses to come up with the same thing we already had in a different form.
Deep Throat	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:10:00 - [34] The problem with Amarr atm is plain simple. They are at the bottom of the races and have absolutly nothing special to offer (say for max skilled characters on specialized ships like the curse or absoulution and even that is limited at best) Hence all those players that have trained Amarr for long time and or want to train for Amarr are ****ed off. solution: plain and simple, give Amarr something special. -give more damage across the board (with current cap and fitting problems, this would still be balanced, although CCP through that theme of development out the window the day they let tuxford handle these things) Amarr used to have great damage potential when damage mods could be stacked, this was nerfed out of the game in the name of balance, probably due to too many gms getting ganked in low sec by pilots flying the infamous gankageddons. Needless to say this was Amarr one special and great thing. -reduce the cap usage and fitting requirements for lasers and or boost all Amarr ships for their long term buddy Capicator either one of these modifications would bring Amarr back to the table instead of sitting in the garbage can where they are right now.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:14:00 - [35] What do you prefer? Doing less damage, or not doing any at all because you ran out of cap? I know which I'd pick. Especially since your cap is life, and not only powers your guns, but your reppers/ab/web/tc/scram/etc. And since most noobs start out doing missions, where tanking > ganking, I think that doing a bit less damage for much more sustainability early on would be a big plus. As for the "no ship is noob friendly" argument, that may be true, but at least most are not noob-UNfriendly like Amarr ships are. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:18:00 - [36] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus What do you prefer? Doing less damage, or not doing any at all because you ran out of cap? I know which I'd pick. Especially since your cap is life, and not only powers your guns, but your reppers/ab/web/tc/scram/etc. And since most noobs start out doing missions, where tanking > ganking, I think that doing a bit less damage for much more sustainability early on would be a big plus. As for the "no ship is noob friendly" argument, that may be true, but at least most are not noob-UNfriendly like Amarr ships are. Umm I looked into level one missions and it is Gank >> Tank most can't even beat a amarr shield for crying out loud. You only tank on the harder level twos if your in a cruiser and higher. noobs can take the newbie ship and be happy. doing less damage but over a longer time is worthless as you'll soon doo too little damage to break tanks as they blow uou to hel\| and back.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:28:00 - [37] I didn't mean just level 1 and 2 missions (and even on those, you need a good tank to get through i.e. Worlds Collide). The same problems are going to plague you once you start doing level 3s and 4s in a BC/BS. As for damage, the time you would have otherwise spent on spaceship command skills to keep your cap drain under control can be brought to bear on rapid fire and surgical strike, which will help you with ALL the classes of ships in the Amarr lineup instead of one precisely. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:32:00 - [38] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I didn't mean just level 1 and 2 missions (and even on those, you need a good tank to get through i.e. Worlds Collide). The same problems are going to plague you once you start doing level 3s and 4s in a BC/BS. As for damage, the time you would have otherwise spent on spaceship command skills to keep your cap drain under control can be brought to bear on rapid fire and surgical strike, which will help you with ALL the classes of ships in the Amarr lineup instead of one precisely. Err... but then you'd have a ship with low damage potential since you didn't train the shipskill. You'd still end up having to train both Spaceship Command skills and Gunnery skills, just as you do now.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:37:00 - [39] Yes, you would, but you wouldn't be kicked in the teeth by cap drain every time you take your Amarr ship out for combat while you are skilling up. Which is my entire point: making Amarr ships less noob unfriendly. At my (and yours, I imagine) level, either way wouldn't affect me anymore, but it sure as hell would for the guy who's just jumped into an Executioner for the first time. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:37:00 - [40] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus I didn't mean just level 1 and 2 missions (and even on those, you need a good tank to get through i.e. Worlds Collide). The same problems are going to plague you once you start doing level 3s and 4s in a BC/BS. As for damage, the time you would have otherwise spent on spaceship command skills to keep your cap drain under control can be brought to bear on rapid fire and surgical strike, which will help you with ALL the classes of ships in the Amarr lineup instead of one precisely. um you can plain speed the world collide for the most part. Your not longer a newbie if you can run level threes smoothly and on a normal basis. How does spaceship command help damage at all?
Archaon Dechalus	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:40:00 - [41] One other problem I see with amarr is the optimal range of their 'short range' weapons. You can't combine this with current jammers or webbers (not including the 200mil worth 15km webbers). Just on a side note AD
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:45:00 - [42] Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 09/12/2006 06:45:40 You can speed through Worlds Collide, but that's just one example, and it's not fun to simply speed through. I help newbies once in a while, and Worlds Collide is always the one that give them trouble. As for running level 3s smoothly, obviously, you ain't a noob when they ARE running smoothly. That's self evident. But again, I must reiterate that the idea was to help those that CAN'T run them smoothly yet. I remember when I began running level 3, man, was I ever rushing to raise my BC skill since my cap was unsustainable. Then learned to fly a Ferox and laughed at the noob-unfriendliness of Amarr ships. Finally, I didn't mean Spaceship Command specifically; hence why I used skillS. Amarr Frigate, Amarr Cruiser, Amarr Battleship all fall into Spaceship Command skills. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:54:00 - [43] ok tell me some pros for ammar past a rare few ships and unlimited ammo tho that ammo is weaker the the slave's ammo
Deschenus Maximus Amarr In Articulo Mortis	Posted - 2006.12.09 07:04:00 - [44] Are you asking me? Regardless: -Good range on pulses -Good damage against shields -Excellent in gangs/fleets -Good tracking on long range turrets -No ammo (you mentionned it, but it IS a fact) -No reload time (same as above) -Excellent tanking (compromised by laser cap usage, but that is a different issue) -2nd best average speed IIRC (which is wrong, in my view, but whatever) -Godly DPS Does this make Amarr 100% ok? No, of course not. There are problems, which are well known (cap usage/EANM being chief amongst them), but I've flown every T1 combat ship up to BC and flew battleships of all races except Gallente, and I came back to Amarr. There are problems, but they can be overcome untill they are fixed. FOR THE EMPEROR! The Fourth NtV (Noob to Vet) Lottery
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 07:19:00 - [45] I just wanted the pros of amarr again i kinda forget them as i never flew amarr full time yet. Their on the to do list after getting adv learning skills to 4 each. I think the only key thing to help boost amar is a 20-40% damage mod boost, they should have more powerful guns from how much cap they cost as well as not being able to switch their ammo, simular to the gallente position.
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:16:00 - [46] Vincent Almasy: Can you elaborate on this please? are there plans to change the Amarr damage profile and if i'm reading your post correctly are there are plans to introduce more Amarr advanced skills? One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Larsonist	Posted - 2006.12.09 11:24:00 - [47] I am encroaching on 30 million skill points as of now. I have not really posted my concerns regarding amarr damage until now, so i will be as simple as i can. With almost 10 million in just gunnery for beams and pulses i have come to a conclusion. Amarr damage is acceptable for missions and ratting. Amarr damage is mediocre at best concerning pvp. Its not that the guns and damage out put is the problem, they are fine if not perfectly balanced. The problem is the entire community is globally "prepared" to deal with amarr damage output through amarrian lack of damage damage diversity. point being, its great being amarr if somebody forgets to fit thermal tanking
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.09 18:42:00 - [48] Great point...Amarr are good at ratting (in fairness all races can rat if you have a few decent gunnery skills) and are good in lvl 1/2/3 missions. Where Amarr struggle is in lvl 4 missions and they get into real trouble pvp. One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Talthrus Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.09 18:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Great point...Amarr are good at ratting (in fairness all races can rat if you have a few decent gunnery skills) and are good in lvl 1/2/3 missions. Where Amarr struggle is in lvl 4 missions and they get into real trouble pvp. If you could call not using up ammo "good" then I guess Amarr is good at ratting. The raven is a much better choice in almost all ratting situations (and pvp too, I might add). ----------------------
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.09 19:20:00 - [50] -Does a increasement of a laser's base damage modifier increase, atleast for mid weapons, of 25-30% sound fair? This is befor ship specialists skills come into play mind you. -Befor I hear a single gallente talk about blaster damage being incroached on, you are still much much more damaging with your blaster weapons as your ships have additional bonus and they have naturaly greater dps. -The amarr would have another change, higher tracking[but not a 100% hit chance like a missile]. The reason is from them being lasers, the line of sight was a great way of saying it. Laser modifiers are aleady the same for pulse and beam, have amarr be the race that accells at longer ranged assults. The rp reason for this is, to try and stay out of the attack reang to peak attack range of the slaves[matar] and high tracking[which only needs a slight mod for bean and a more of a boost in pulse] to keep tracking those ex-slave ships. -Now befor a matar talks about their damage being gimped still I would say that for some of their ammo they need to be looked at as their ammo doesn't really have a high emp damage type ammo combared to a high ex damage type. The Matar acell at quickly damaging their opponents with different ammo types and being jack of all trades so I would support matar loading times to be shaved to 7.5sec and maybe down to 5.0sec to be fair. -With this change the cap could remain the same or give the amarr a small boost with an aditional 2.5% cap redution onto the ship skills that would change the total 65% redution if this still ment that they used more cap then gallente blasters did, as amarr use their cap as a ammo tank in many ways so they much still have the highest cap, so this idea is the most exspendable. ------------------------------------------------------------ Please give feed back for each of these ideas, and I also want input from the other races for this subject to work in balances.
Mike5p0	Posted - 2006.12.09 19:45:00 - [51] Originally by: Siakel No, AWU does not fix the fitting issues. And yes, we do need versatility, as the Devs are unwilling to make our ships powerful enough to be limited by the lack of it. When an entire race can only shoot and tank, it needs to be the best at it. It can't be mediocre at it as we currently are. The Devs aren't willing to make this change, so they have to give us versatility. This sums it all up imo.
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.10 03:12:00 - [52] Originally by: Imechal Ravpeim Amarr ships are fine. You guys are looking for a solo I-win mobile. That's not what the Amarrians are like. They have numbers. A lot of numbers. Get a large number of Abaddons all fitted the same with a few Gaurdians to support cap and you might have one of the strongest fleets out there. Not a good argument imho. So to play Amarr you need to be in a huge gang...ya that works.
Almarez	Posted - 2006.12.10 03:16:00 - [53] Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Great point...Amarr are good at ratting (in fairness all races can rat if you have a few decent gunnery skills) and are good in lvl 1/2/3 missions. Where Amarr struggle is in lvl 4 missions and they get into real trouble pvp. Only true if you are ratting dark blood or sansha. Other than that it takes forever to kill the rats.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.10 06:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Imechal Ravpeim Amarr ships are fine. You guys are looking for a solo I-win mobile. That's not what the Amarrians are like. They have numbers. A lot of numbers. Get a large number of Abaddons all fitted the same with a few Gaurdians to support cap and you might have one of the strongest fleets out there. Not a good argument imho. So to play Amarr you need to be in a huge gang...ya that works. Actually, I believe a member of PIE posted about this exact concept a few months back. The backstory has the Amarr being the lower-tech, higher-numbers race, which is fine for a backstory. However, it isn't fine for gameplay, because unless you can insure that the side flying Amarr always outnumbers the enemies, this kind of balancing would essentially lead to Amarr being subpar in 99% of combat. As I've said in other threads, one of Amarr's biggest issues is the lack of versatility, also a 'backstory balancing' act... at least partially. If one Race has absolutely no versatility, but instead relies entirely on the advanced tactic 'Shoot each other 'til someone dies', they need to be the best at that. As CCP isn't willing to make Amarr ships this powerful in straight-out combat(And to be honest, if they did, idiots who tried to do the same thing with other race's ships instead of using their versatility to overcome the Amarr ship's superiority in DPS/Tank would flood the forums.) they have to give Amarr versatility. You can't have all the drawbacks of a one-path race with none of the benefits, it just doesn't work.
Senor Pablo	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:00:00 - [55] Apoc: can fit 8 guns pecial Ability: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per level. No damage bonuses for using lazer beams or even sharks with freaking lazer beams. Fit whatever guns you like. If you dont like lazers dont use them thank god i solved your problem
Shugo Kazuma	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:07:00 - [56] Originally by: Imechal Ravpeim Amarr ships are fine. You guys are looking for a solo I-win mobile. That's not what the Amarrians are like. They have numbers. A lot of numbers. Get a large number of Abaddons all fitted the same with a few Gaurdians to support cap and you might have one of the strongest fleets out there. Saying that is all good and well, until you get a dose of reality and realize that most people are playing as Caldari characters and that in game populations look nothing like what's put forth in the backstory.
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.10 07:51:00 - [57] Originally by: Talthrus Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Great point...Amarr are good at ratting (in fairness all races can rat if you have a few decent gunnery skills) and are good in lvl 1/2/3 missions. Where Amarr struggle is in lvl 4 missions and they get into real trouble pvp. If you could call not using up ammo "good" then I guess Amarr is good at ratting. The raven is a much better choice in almost all ratting situations (and pvp too, I might add). Yep, from what i've learnt the Ravan has a pretty awesome reputation in both mission running and PvP. I think i'll be training up some extra skills to have a go at flying one in a while. One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Kayden Drake Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:45:00 - [58] Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Yep, from what i've learnt the Ravan has a pretty awesome reputation in both mission running and PvP. I think i'll be training up some extra skills to have a go at flying one in a while. Raven is overrated simply because its the easiest on the SP to fly. Thus you get a lot of people w/o the comparable skills to use a gunboat who say the raven is the best. I run lvl 4s in Amarr BS's and other gun boats all of the time, and frankly have more success than I do with the raven (both sets of skills are maxed). And its cheaper to run. The only real advantage the raven has is that it can just fly to the next jumpgate while spewing missles, whereas gunboats have to worry about range. But as long as you know what your doing your fine, and frankly it makes lvl 4s more interesting and fun. Just DONT take on Angels with lasers lol... leads to looooong fights. As to the "Amarr Problem", I agree that EM/Thermal ratios on the crystals should be switched, and maybe EANM resist bonus lowered a little, but nothing TOO drastic. One thing people dont seem to bring up so much is that the Amarr are the most cap dependant race. Before Revalations, that was fine, and I like the idea in general. But now with holding your capacitor being more important b/c the longer fights and tanking being more important in general, NOS's getting no nerf (which was insanely stupid IMO and directly lead to almost all PVP ships fitting NOS's now), Amarr have been ****** over even more. Thus, I think that another "fix" the amarr problem is nerfing NOS's somewhat. Label some ships as "Nos ships" and make using NOS's on non NOS ships not very effective. Or simply maybe lower the amount they steal by 20% or so.
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.10 09:56:00 - [59] Originally by: Kayden Drake Originally by: Solomunio Kzenig Yep, from what i've learnt the Ravan has a pretty awesome reputation in both mission running and PvP. I think i'll be training up some extra skills to have a go at flying one in a while. Raven is overrated simply because its the easiest on the SP to fly. Thus you get a lot of people w/o the comparable skills to use a gunboat who say the raven is the best. I run lvl 4s in Amarr BS's and other gun boats all of the time, and frankly have more success than I do with the raven (both sets of skills are maxed). And its cheaper to run. The only real advantage the raven has is that it can just fly to the next jumpgate while spewing missles, whereas gunboats have to worry about range. But as long as you know what your doing your fine, and frankly it makes lvl 4s more interesting and fun. Just DONT take on Angels with lasers lol... leads to looooong fights. As to the "Amarr Problem", I agree that EM/Thermal ratios on the crystals should be switched, and maybe EANM resist bonus lowered a little, but nothing TOO drastic. One thing people dont seem to bring up so much is that the Amarr are the most cap dependant race. Before Revalations, that was fine, and I like the idea in general. But now with holding your capacitor being more important b/c the longer fights and tanking being more important in general, NOS's getting no nerf (which was insanely stupid IMO and directly lead to almost all PVP ships fitting NOS's now), Amarr have been ****** over even more. Thus, I think that another "fix" the amarr problem is nerfing NOS's somewhat. Label some ships as "Nos ships" and make using NOS's on non NOS ships not very effective. Or simply maybe lower the amount they steal by 20% or so. While there might not be too much 'cap carping' on this thread, see this one for more Amarr woes: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=439776 . As for the Raven, you said it exactly when you said 'spewing misiles'. I like the idea about 'NOS Ships' as lets face it in PvP there is allways one or two ships in a gang which specialise in nossing the oppostion. Either make it impossible to fit a nos onto 'normal' ships, restrict it to Interceptors/Interdictors/Recon Ships, or lower its energy drain along with its range. One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Larsonist	Posted - 2006.12.10 10:14:00 - [60] agreed. The Raven is trully a noobs mission runner. I hate to say that, but it must be said. One can get alot of bang for their buck our of the raven and not be required to have massive sp's. I only had 500k in missle skills and was able to solo level 4's in a raven a loooong time ago
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.12.10 13:31:00 - [61] Every weapon system has its drawbacks. Ok, every turret weapon system at least.... e.g. beam lasers have: - highest damage factor (considering damage mod and rof) - best tracking - second best range - worst damage type combination against armor tanks - highest cap use (somewhat offset by by amarr ship bonuses and general good cap on amarr ships) Rails have: - best range - 2nd best tracking - 2nd best dps - overall good damage types - lower cap use then lasers Artys have: - no cap use - worst tracking - worst range - worst dps (offset by some minni ships damage bonuses which is partially countered by minni ships having the least turret hardpoints of all races) - best damage type against armor at all ranges - somewhat flexible damage types at short range In total it looks pretty balanced to me. Of course some of these points can be compared directly, some cant. Plus you have to consider the whole racial ship situation. e.g. Minni weapons not using cap is a considerable advantage at short ranges where you actually tank and nos you opponent while its meaningless at long range because your ship normally has nothing else to do with its cap then fire the weapons. Plus the advantage is no all that great considering minni ships generally have the worst cap and recharge of all ships. On top of that amarr ships have the option of fitting projectiles if they chose to trade damage for less cap use, while minnis will have their cap drained extremely fast if they try to fit lasers.
Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.12.10 13:47:00 - [62] On paper, yes things look balanced, but the experience of playing Amarr simply does not bear this out. Amarr use their cap as 'ammo' for their weapons and as this ammo is also used for many other things in game (reppers/extenders/ecm/eccm/MWD etc...) their 'ammo' is being heavily consumed by other systems, not only their lasers. If all these other systems did not use CAP, then Amarr would be overpowered as their CAP would allow them to use all their weapons in an unlimited fashion. As it is Amarr players will be able to shoot their lasers for a while (often doing little damage as everbody has EM tanked), draining their CAP away until they can either shoot or do something else with the CAP, not two things at once. One Empire, One People, One Emperor, Forever under Heaven. Amarr Aeternus.
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.10 17:49:00 - [63] Originally by: Amy Wang Plus the advantage is no all that great considering minni ships generally have the worst cap and recharge of all ships. Mmm... this is a common misconception. Most Amarrian ships and Minmatar ships have the exact same cap/second, though the Amarrians tend to have more cap total, yes. But I can't think of a single ship that has enough extra cap/recharge to make up for the capuse of Lasers(in fact, the few with an actual advantage lose this in the first 10 seconds of firing..), which turns our supposed 'cap advantage' into quite a large disadvantage. Which is... interesting, as apparently CCP went from Amarr being the 'Armor' race to the 'Capacitor' race(Logistics bonuses, Titan bonuses, etc), yet our 'biggest strength' is interestingly enough one of our biggest weaknesses.
Lithalnas Amarr Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.12.10 18:55:00 - [64] Give us amarrians a siege moduals for BS's. Thats kinda what we are designed for pull into a battle, park, shoot until everything is dead or we are dead. Abaddon, 5% resists + 99% siege pg use + 99% siege cpu use ------------- Cadet Lithalnas - Logistics Division - Hadean Drive Yards

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