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T2 BPO Cartels and Lobby.......a Myth?

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slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:21:00 - [1] Edited by: slothe on 09/12/2006 04:23:21 Cartel:- "car+tel /kɑrˈtɛl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kahr-tel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation ûnoun 1. an international syndicate, combine, or trust formed esp. to regulate prices and output in some field of business. " Lobby:- "lob+by /ˈlɒbi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lob-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -bies, verb, -bied, -by+ing. ûnoun 1. an entrance hall, corridor, or vestibule, as in a public building, often serving as an anteroom; foyer. 2. a large public room or hall adjacent to a legislative chamber. 3. a group of persons who work or conduct a campaign to influence members of a legislature to vote according to the group's special interest. ûverb (used without object) 4. to solicit or try to influence the votes of members of a legislative body. ûverb (used with object) 5. to try to influence the actions of (public officials, esp. legislators). 6. to urge or procure the passage of (a bill), by lobbying." Ok so there are the definitions to start with. Since T2BPO's were released and prices steadily rose, there has been constant talk of both price fixing T2 cartels, and also a T2 lobby apparently influencing GM's to continue their monopoly / oligarchy. When i read these comments i always laughed to myself, as i assume these kind of comments to be wild speculation. Clearly some T2BPO's are in Alliance hands and so the products produced from these are unlikely to make general release, but this is in no way of the definition a cartel. So lets talk about T2BPO's that produce goods available for public release. What i want to know is this.. Does anyone have any credible evidence / knowledge that cartels exist (im not talking about "omg prices are so high it must be an evil cartel controlling things") ? Does anyone have any credible evidence / knowledge that there is a T2 lobby pulling strings (again not a "OMG GM's are doing nothing about the "evil cartels" price fixing, they must have a powerful lobby)? Discuss.. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Notleh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:24:00 - [2] Been discussed dozens of times and pretty well documented. www.eve-search.com
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:25:00 - [3] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 09/12/2006 04:26:06 There is no cartel in control of any single T2 item, as far as I know. If there is, its probably BCS2s or cap IIs. There have been agreements of all sorts, but most have not been very successful. Most "agreements" are de facto--no actual conversations were ever had. One recent example is mining drone IIs. Someone tried to buy up all the BPOs and knock the price up to 1 million. Going by the price in Jita today, they failed miserably (and I started the breaking of their cartel). There is one player who owns a lot of cloak BPOs, though not all of them. There is also a guy with four hulk BPOs--many, but not even a third of the total. As far as I know, most major T2 producers are actually pretty strongly in support of improvements to the T2 system, including Invention. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:26:00 - [4] Here's a definition for you: Oligopoly: A market condition in which sellers are so few that the actions of any one of them will materially affect price and have a measurable impact on competitors. It doesn't require a conspiracy for there to be a problem.
Dahak2150 HellBrothers Industries	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:26:00 - [5] Seriously, look at the price of cap recharger IIs. Compare it to eutectics. Now, compare the price of T2 equipment vs Best named in almost every other category. There's one. If you're on IE, pretend this is transparent while you get a better browser.
Kane Ululani REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Dahak2150 Seriously, look at the price of cap recharger IIs. Compare it to eutectics. Now, compare the price of T2 equipment vs Best named in almost every other category. There's one. Cap IIs are high because there aren't enough bpos to fulfill demand. They are a must have item for a lot of setups.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Kane Ululani Originally by: Dahak2150 Seriously, look at the price of cap recharger IIs. Compare it to eutectics. Now, compare the price of T2 equipment vs Best named in almost every other category. There's one. Cap IIs are high because there aren't enough bpos to fulfill demand. They are a must have item for a lot of setups. They're extremely popular among NPCers/complex *****s/mission runners also. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Torlack	Posted - 2006.12.09 04:54:00 - [8] They do exist. I personally know of one. Not a rumor. Not some fuzzy email hint. Standing in front of they guy talking at breakfast and he told me...
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:45:00 - [9] so nothing so far...oh and i dont consider an oligarchy a cartel and / or lobby for the purpose of this thread. *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Reiisha Satal's Legion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:04:00 - [10] Edited by: Reiisha on 09/12/2006 06:04:35 A big part of the problem is also that a lot of T2 BPO's end up being used in corp/alliance circles instead of being publically marketed. edit: the OP already mentioned that. Go me. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:43:00 - [11] Tbh the Covops Cloak II is the once I’m interested in, purchase numbers have admittedly doubled in the last year, but I see no shortage of them on the market - 150 in jita alone, also the number of improved cloaking devices available on market is fairly huge, and there prices have been plummeting in recent days – down to 22m from the 41m they peaked at 6 months ago, same storey with proto’s. Take a look at This Graph, number of units traded have risen steadily, and it looks at least possible that prices have risen purely because the sellers know they can charge more and people will still buy. The worst part about this is cartel or not, invention doesn’t have a chance of fixing it. -
insanebe Caldari soni Corp Imperium Sonorumance	Posted - 2006.12.09 06:59:00 - [12] when are they gonna fix that stupid left hand side axis on the market graph... and more to the point there is alot more players able to equip tech 2 stuff now then ever before so there should be more bpos now then ever before, or all that happens is the smaller alliances and corps get priced out of the market but the prices continue to rise anyway due to the 0.0 alliances and corps being able to afford the high prices ..when will it end ?, it wont end prices will continue to rise indefinately untill either a new better cloak is but in the game or the current tech 2 cloak is more available, and to those who think that prices will peak and fall they are mistaken simply because the past has shown that if something doesn't sell the tech 2 producers stop making as many as they did before and make other tech 2 stuff instead. knowledge is power.... guard it well
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.09 08:28:00 - [13] The amount of most produced T2 items isn't big enough to be prone to market manipulations by pilots or groups with huge amounts of Isk and without the BPO. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:43:00 - [14] Cap Recharger II's are high because they are not directly replaceable by named T1. Most items that have this quality are high. For example, guns (since the introduction of T2 ammo), Cloaks (although there's also a bottleneck), T2 EANMs. Whenever the best named matches the T2 variant, the price of T2 stays low, because it's directly competing with named T2 for sales. That means combined supply is much higher. Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:53:00 - [15] Never underestimate the power of the reseller... The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:38:00 - [16] In the begining there may have been some atempts at forming cartels however with the shortage of BPO's there is in reality no need. The reason for this is supply and demand. For most profitable T2 BPO's the demand by far outweighs the supply that can even be built if all prints are running hot in the factories with prod. eff. maxed. Thus since the demand is high and the supply is low the prices will rise and the prices will rice untill such time as the demand closelly matches the supply, its that simple. Now there are a few prints where a small number of people have managed to claim all the prints, when it comes to those the owners can create a shortage however in almost all such situations the player creating the shortage is in reality loosing isk as the cost increase must be rather high in order for the mathod to generate a net gain and thus not only do you have to control the prints but the demand must be close to or greater than the supply for this to work... The only real benefit you would get from doing this would be that you have to build less for a slightly lower profit meening less work in short. In any case, cartels have no point in the T2 manufacturing buisness in eve at the moment and lobbies... what are they to lobby? CCP? Sure there are plenty of lobby groups trying to influence CCP to do this or that but I very much doubt that CCP will bend very far due to organized lobby preassure.
violator2k5 Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:48:00 - [17] agrees with avon there have been times ive seen a guy come into local advertising his selling hulks for bout 400mil isk. imediate reply by some of the players "i take em all now" then not to long after that i see them on escrow for 500mil + from one of the players who said he'd take them all in local thats just one instance, also if you look over the sales forum you will see people advertising to sell t2 items at competitive prices to allow people to resell them in other systems / regions for a better profit. seriously though, how many of you guys actually thought "oh damn t2 lottery again more isk for the cartels?" or should i say how many of you sat there rubbing your hands together almost feeling some extra isk and wishing that you'd love to get your hands on a bpo? i know that i fall into the second category but due to the size of the player base atm my chances are very slim. i dont mind about the chance of actually getting one, im not to worried bout the current pricing system on some of the modules and ships. The demand is there and as clearly stated previously with regards to mods / ships the supply is just not enough to cover the demand so people jack up prices. as for the cov ops cloak price being rediculously high that price will drop soon enough, with the introduction of the prototype cloak bpo's you have already seen the price of improved cloak II's dropping already so in time that will continue towards the cov ops cloak. Originally by:* CCP Hammer We are going to seed more tech 2 stuff to the lottery, heck maybe more of EVERYTHING that's been will be in there. Seeing as how the number of pilots researching and using that stuff has tripled since the lottery started it seems like we could use some more blueprint originals out there. noticed the bolded word "maybe" a lot of you guys are under the assumption that in this t2 lottery hammer will seed 3x the amount of T2 bpo's currently in existance already. It may never happen, he may just seed a few bpos to cover the new missile launcher / T2 Ham missiles and the odd other bpo. If you guys remember Revelations is seperated into a few instalments and hammer may chose to spread out the T2 seed to cover each of those instalments. i'd also like to point out just that because it was wrote in another thread, dont make it law until it is actually done. (on seed)
Chrisb6122 Gallente S.P.U.N.K	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Avon Never underestimate the power of the reseller... Making intelligent comments on the eve-online forums is prohibited I believe..
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.09 14:18:00 - [19] Yes. There are several Cartels. Go to the market forums and you will see them. Companies that exist around T2 ammo, or even DS's own project called "Stuff" - these are companies with in-game shares, that pool BPO's in order to get the most out of them. Most of them have cute little things in their bio's declaring this. Outside of that about half of every T2 BPO is in the hands of BoB or ASCN and used internally. STK Scientific is an ASCN corp that has the most impressive BPO collection I've ever seen. To their immense credit they use it for the alliance, and give fair priced goods to their alliance mates. Lobby ? Probably. The T2 BPO holders are mostly very active players, and they make a CRAP TON of isk. Im not kidding, many billions per month on this. They are VERY VOCAL. Now just about all I have said applies to T2 Ships, which were seeded in a low number to start with. Things like 50% or so of the mods, all of the ammo - those arent profitable enough. This is a strong argument AGAINST the reseller crap people talk about. If there were resellers they would do the same thing all T2 items, not just a few. I know there are some resellers for small regions, but not on a game wide scale.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.12.09 14:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Avon Never underestimate the power of the reseller... I¦m with avon on this one. Resellers pushed the price up, not the BPO owners. There is actually more cartel in reseller than in T2 BPO owners. Maybe you should look closer how T2 stuff gets sold. A seller looks around in some trade systems for prices on his stuff. Then he matchs the price which gets bought by resellers or pilots that really need the stuff. Either way, you will see your stuff up on the market under a new owner with a higher price tag from a reseller of the one that blew the last user up. Ship lovers click here
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.09 15:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Alski Tbh the Covops Cloak II is the once IÆm interested in, purchase numbers have admittedly doubled in the last year, but I see no shortage of them on the market - 150 in jita alone, also the number of improved cloaking devices available on market is fairly huge, and there prices have been plummeting in recent days û down to 22m from the 41m they peaked at 6 months ago, same storey with protoÆs. Anyone can buy a protocloak BPO now. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.09 15:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Anyone can buy a protocloak BPO now. but if you invent a t2 cloak theres a 50/50 chance of getting improved or covert ops. since they cost so much to make, why risk getting an improved when u can buy a covert? *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
Haywood Jahblomy	Posted - 2006.12.09 16:30:00 - [23] well certainly... the entire t2 idea is based on cartels. however, the market is smaller than we want/believe it to be: this is not 3 providers serving millions. there's quite a few regions with just a hand full of interested people in most t2 items. sure, there's the classics: hamemrhead II, pdu II etc. and we can see the laws of supply and demand at work quite well there. other, less popular items just have to be priced by the builder and all he can hope for is to sell it within the next 3 months. and noone's going to resell either as those tend to clog up your orders for an equal amount of time - the tycoon skill won't even be enough for such projects.
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.12.10 02:34:00 - [24] Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 10/12/2006 02:37:11 Well... I own a couple T2 BPOs and I dont know of any cartel, nor do I lobby to keep "the people down" All I will say is this though... how interesting would the game be if everyone could make everything... In the real world you only have the top 10% producers supplying 80% of the product, distribution and research to any given product or service, this is a fact that permeates every industry and social class in the world. Even in communist countries this is true, the only difference is the distribution of the profits afterwards. ========================= Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9
Bigoleed	Posted - 2006.12.10 03:17:00 - [25] Actually - Monopoly is a much better term for the T@ issue in EVE. Now sure - some products there is just not enough demand to create a huge pyramid of profit..but on others there is. Almost everything posted in this thread contributes to the high prices - resellers are definitly huge - but manufacturers play with it and in the end... on most products the resellers drive up the prices increasing the initial profits of the T2 manufacturer. This changes daily - depending on the demand and region - resellers who distribute typically make the same damn markup - and in rarer cases make a great buy and make a bit more - but can often sit on product a good while. The market in EVE is Awesome. Cartels? No. Monopolies - Yes.
Ketrin	Posted - 2006.12.10 03:25:00 - [26] Ppl speak against communisam and they want it in EVE :). The guy before me said it best. EVE market is awesome bcs it is like in real life. You need some modul and it's expensive? Though ****, I want a ferrari but too expensive for me atm :( Monopolys definatly yes, cartels I doubt very much. Maybe on 1-2 items but not more.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:50:00 - [27] Few T2 are truely a monopoly or Cartel, but all T2 is an oligopoly. It's like air travel, you have several major companies, and a few lesser ones that can't really compete. Having a BPO makes you USAir, having to invent makes you Farmer John's Plane rides over the Grand Canyon. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Daos Leghki Paxton Industries	Posted - 2006.12.10 06:03:00 - [28] I don't know why people keep mentioning resellers. They don't matter. Yes, they bring the price up to the equilibrium point, but no higher. They are the thing that makes supply and demand work. If the builders are smart, they will price things so that no reseller can make profit. However, I imagine they're busy actually building, so they don't price things very well. That said, EVE's economy is very interesting. The problem with T2 is that the supply isn't just limited. It's completely capped and totally price inelastic. For every product, there's a long term price elasticity that just doesn't exist for T2, because people cannot enter into T2 production. There doesn't need tobe any specific cartel, because the supply is low enough that prices are high-ish. TBH, on most things, prices are pretty decent anyway. Perhaps Invention will fix things by allowing people to enter the market, perhaps not. All depends on if people deem it worthy of their time. That, and if someone finally finds a data interface ^_^ Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
Bigoleed	Posted - 2006.12.10 06:40:00 - [29] Edited by: Bigoleed on 10/12/2006 06:47:31 ^^ Resellers increase costs - you are right the demand and price willing to pay is held by the market/buyer - but you have to factor in resellers because each not only has their profit margin but since the EVE markets can be controlled, it can have a dramatic affect over short durations...and sometimes longer. Of course there are situations where a reseller wont matter nearly as much - some ships obviously can't be affected by resellers - supply is a serious issue here because of the time involved. If Cartels actually existed they would be few and far between - something like OPEC in EVE just doesnt exist....maybe two or three guys form an agreement on pricing "price fixing" and that is about the extent of it. The rest of the market is controlled by T2 resellers who corner markets and create an artificial demand - I know I do it on a small scale and I watch some higher rollers do it on a much grander scale daily. Their artificial demand creates an increase for T2 manufacturers who can then sell the next shipment higher ..this goes until the guy(s) sucking up the product are done with their run - or get busted by an undercutting T2 Manufacturer and then the market resets back normally - we see this daily. Differs based on BPO of course - and might not apply to ships as much as it does to modules - but when people say resellers they are not jsut talking about the markup a resller puts on it ...they are talking about the artificial demand they create. So basically - the product on the market needs to be high in supply to prevent people from being able to easily create this artifical inflation...right now there is just not enough....but it is a tricky balance...I am not sure what the market would be like if T2 was as readily avaialable as T1 is. They need to look at T2 product that is working and analyze the demand/availability and diversity of where the those T2 BPO's are. Fun stuff - good topic.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.10 08:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Daos Leghki I don't know why people keep mentioning resellers. [...] Because the resellers are driving the prices up. Take my siege missile launcher II as an exsample. I have been selling them at 5mil each. They did sell as fast as I could produce them. One week there have been a few left on the markt, the next they've been sold two days early. The price went up and down a bit, with the changes often in relation the bigger wars or changes to missions. The change to the poon did not have any impact - not on the #phoons, nor on the #launchers being sold. One day someone started buying all of them, continuously in all regions I regularly visited, from all producers. About a month later all those launchers reappeared on the market, tagged for 12mil. Launchers offered at the old price have been bought up quickly and put back on the market at the new price. Coincidence? Do I have a problem taking 12mil per launcher? No. But I had been quite happy with the old price as I thought it was fair in relation to the 'arbalest' launchers. This did not happen with only one module. When you check the market regularly and know what to look for, you can observe these things happen with many modules, everywhere, repeatedly. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20

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