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Lamb Chop KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:24:00 - [1] I am a 3 yrs+ eve pilot which have specialization in many things unlike some SP poor chars that have only 1. In my time in eve, i have seen many nerfs or buffs, mechanic changes. Some good, some bad in my opinion. But all this time i have never seen such a nerf as ecm has been hit with and Caldari recons ships that are directly tied to it. I also can not see any reason behind it apart from taking the easy way out on the multispec domi/ishtar etc problem. Despite the increase in ship bonuses and new damage mods which makes Caldari recon and ecm platforms a lot harder to fit and lowers survivability of them, You have made it impossible for them to fill the role they were created for. If you think ECM was overpowered and everyone was fitting 1 on their ship, more sensible solutions were either to add a cooldown period or increase CPU amount of modules and give the dedicated ecm ships a bonus on cpu fitting of said mods. If you are a non-ecm user, think how you would feel if your projectile artilleries tracking were halved or your drone damage over night. CCP says they want ppl to specialize, well i have, and you changed the rules. And i hereby demand all my SP's to be reassigned to my will from ecm skills to whatever i desire. This probably will not happen since it will open a can of worms but i am hoping amount of sigs you get here will make you think twice about making drastic changes. You may agree or disagree with me, i am asking ppl who read this not to comment but sign it if they agree with this. If you wanna flame me or ticked off that i killed you do it somewhere else. ]
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:27:00 - [2] Oh boo hoo. Your rook can only permajam three battleships at once instead of five. How unfair ECM was overpowered. The fact that a single ship could put a whole gang out of commission from 120km away was not balanced. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Dixon Caldari Hells Donkeys	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:32:00 - [3] ECM was overpowered and boring. Currently it might be underpowered (I haven't tested it much). However, until the chance based system is revoked I think it should remain underpowered. - - - - - - Originally by: Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
Lamb Chop KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:34:00 - [4] Originally by: Dark Shikari Oh boo hoo. Your rook can only permajam three battleships at once instead of five. How unfair ECM was overpowered. The fact that a single ship could put a whole gang out of commission from 120km away was not balanced. I was expecting this.. Nor is a tempest/megathron killing a pod from 240K away before it can warp out or an interceptor without it's mwd on. Nor is it balanced that a Nos dominix can tank 2-3 BS's. Nor is it balanced that a Typhoon can travel at 4-5K/s or a vagabond 10K/s+ Which one do you use DS?
Kriger Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:34:00 - [5] Originally by: Dark Shikari Oh boo hoo. Your rook can only permajam three battleships at once instead of five. How unfair ECM was overpowered. The fact that a single ship could put a whole gang out of commission from 120km away was not balanced. go play with ur legos kiddo.. ur not old enough to do an adult conversation it seems.. and while ur at it.. get ur school money back too.. a rook cant perma jam 3 bs anymore unless u utterly gimp its fitting.. and even then, prolly not.. omg ppls lack of brains never siezes to amaze me on these forums.. .:: Kriger's gfx Factory ::.
Lamb Chop KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Kriger Originally by: Dark Shikari Oh boo hoo. Your rook can only permajam three battleships at once instead of five. How unfair ECM was overpowered. The fact that a single ship could put a whole gang out of commission from 120km away was not balanced. go play with ur legos kiddo.. ur not old enough to do an adult conversation it seems.. and while ur at it.. get ur school money back too.. a rook cant perma jam 3 bs anymore unless u utterly gimp its fitting.. and even then, prolly not.. omg ppls lack of brains never siezes to amaze me on these forums.. A Rook which is supposed to be a very highly specialized support ship can not do anything to support anyone anymore, you can't even permajam 1 BS if it has a single backup array. Other Race Heavy assault and Recon ships with their higher sensor strength, totaly forget about it... PS, FYI, i do have recon lvl5 and all ecm skills trained to max.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:42:00 - [7] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 09/12/2006 12:42:47 Originally by: Lamb Chop I was expecting this.. Nor is a tempest/megathron killing a pod from 240K away before it can warp out or an interceptor without it's mwd on. But a Tempest can't kill four battleships from 240km away. Originally by: Lamb Chop Nor is it balanced that a Nos dominix can tank 2-3 BS's. Maybe if they're flown by 20-day newbies, yes. Originally by: Lamb Chop Nor is it balanced that a Typhoon can travel at 4-5K/s or a vagabond 10K/s+ Which one do you use DS? Neither. But you can do something called webbing them. A rook, pre-patch, was so ridiculously overpowered as a gang ship that including one in a two-or-three person gang would ensure victory (or at least a draw, if the other side managed to escape!) -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Hakera Anari Higard	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:42:00 - [8] personally, I am of the opinion ships with an ECM jamming strength skill should have it boosted by 50% per level, ie scorp with 10% per lvl should become 15% per lvl. The ECM changes certaintly have helped somewhat, but yes I agree on ECM specialised ships, it needs a little boost.
Jo McLoli	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:44:00 - [9] Originally by: Kriger omg ppls lack of brains never siezes to amaze me on these forums.. irony: i - ro - ny ûnoun, plural -nies. 1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, ôHow nice!ö when I said I had to work all weekend. 2. Kriger's post.
Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:45:00 - [10] Originally by: Lamb Chop Originally by: Kriger Originally by: Dark Shikari Oh boo hoo. Your rook can only permajam three battleships at once instead of five. How unfair ECM was overpowered. The fact that a single ship could put a whole gang out of commission from 120km away was not balanced. go play with ur legos kiddo.. ur not old enough to do an adult conversation it seems.. and while ur at it.. get ur school money back too.. a rook cant perma jam 3 bs anymore unless u utterly gimp its fitting.. and even then, prolly not.. omg ppls lack of brains never siezes to amaze me on these forums.. A Rook which is supposed to be a very highly specialized support ship can not do anything to support anyone anymore, you can't even permajam 1 BS if it has a single backup array. Other Race Heavy assault and Recon ships with their higher sensor strength, totaly forget about it... PS, FYI, i do have recon lvl5 and all ecm skills trained to max. You must not know how to use your skills then. My corpmate (<3 Tuna!) flies a Rook/Falcon and is just fantastic and ensuring we win every fight. He jams everything that needs jamming, usually 100% of the time, without fail. It's so good it just doesn't seem fair half the time- to the other team that is. ECM hasn't been nerfed in Revelations. It's just been narrowed a bit as to who can use it on what ships, and how. We fly Rooks and Falcons in a support role, and it is indeed an "I win" button. We warp in, scramble and lock down all the targets, Rook/Falcon warps in, jams everyone solid, they all die, we scoop loot and leave. Boring as hell, but good ISK for us. If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
Jack Rattenbury Caldari Executioner's Dynasty	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:46:00 - [11] /signed On the basis that it should still be possible to specialise in this particular role. The ECM changes that have taken place with the Revelations patch do seem to have made it extremely difficult for a ship designed with ECM capability in mind to actually fulfil its role. Specialization, to me at least, implies that you will excel at performing a particular skill or role. Given that with maximum ECM skills and ship role bonus, you still are still going to struggle (especially in a fleet setting), I don't personally consider this as being able to specialise effectively, but rather makes the task of training these skills pointless. Consider, as an example, taking a logistics ship, and altering the module stats so that they gave next to no shield/armour/energy boost. Wouldn't be much use as a logistics ship then, really, but that is effectively what has happened here. Given that a dedicated few have already given a significant amount of training time towards developing their ECM skills, this change in stats does pretty much make this role largely worthless, and renders the investment in these particular skills a complete waste of time. I can, therefore, see an argument for wishing to have that training time retrospectively reallocated to area's where it would actually be of some use, rather than what is currently SP tied up in now totally pointless skills.
Kriger Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:47:00 - [12] yep.. even with gimped fitting the rook atm only does a percentage of the jam strength it used to.. so the ECM nerf not only nerfed ecm in general, but it also nerfed the ecm specialized ships to be even less effective. And all this because ppl dont want to fit eccm.. the result is already visible.. take the tourney.. damps are the new 'ecm'.. when they get nerfed it will be tracking disrupters.. n so on.. eve is all dps and tank soon.. boring. .:: Kriger's gfx Factory ::.
Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:51:00 - [13] You guys don't get it. Even with the (slightly) reduced max ECM strength, it's still extremely effective. Heaven forbid you are in a gang with a command ship with gang mods and boost your ECM strength even higher. ECM is still insanely effective. Oh, and for the record, my blasters got their effectiveness completely F#CKED with the Revelations patch when compared to how they used to be in RMR. It's not just the ECM crowd that was nerfed. If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
Kriger Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Jo McLoli Originally by: Kriger omg ppls lack of brains never siezes to amaze me on these forums.. irony: i - ro - ny ûnoun, plural -nies. 1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, ôHow nice!ö when I said I had to work all weekend. 2. Kriger's post. lol if thats the best u can come up with.. .:: Kriger's gfx Factory ::.
Laythun Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:53:00 - [15] Welcome to the world of the other races EW. All the races EW is balanced across eachother now. CEI's own Undercover Brother It's great being Amarr, aint it?Ö
Lamb Chop KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:55:00 - [16] Bellum, what you and your corp do, which is ganking and griefing noobs or ppl not paying attention in low sec, i do not count as PvP. You may think yourselves very cool that you can permajam a ferox or a caracal that you find ratting in a belt and to scoop his T1 modules. But i do not. That is your play style, choice and i respect it. As you and your kind, I despise. I bet you think beating up young kids for their lunch money is cool too...
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:56:00 - [17] lol, the caldari, the easymode race is whining bout this. /wipes a tear from his eyes like someone else said, suck it up boyp, welcome to the other races problems. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.- -nerf Missles-
Ki An Gallente Ghouls	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Lamb Chop Bellum, what you and your corp do, which is ganking and griefing noobs or ppl not paying attention in low sec, i do not count as PvP. You may think yourselves very cool that you can permajam a ferox or a caracal that you find ratting in a belt and to scoop his T1 modules. But i do not. That is your play style, choice and i respect it. As you and your kind, I despise. I bet you think beating up young kids for their lunch money is cool too... Wow, what an argument! /Ki
Lamb Chop KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:59:00 - [19] Originally by: Gonada lol, the caldari, the easymode race is whining bout this. /wipes a tear from his eyes like someone else said, suck it up boyp, welcome to the other races problems. Oi, didn't you get the memo? Cadari is is the superior race here...
Taketa De Gallente Seneca Federation Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Lamb Chop Originally by: Dark Shikari Oh boo hoo. Your rook can only permajam three battleships at once instead of five. How unfair ECM was overpowered. The fact that a single ship could put a whole gang out of commission from 120km away was not balanced. I was expecting this.. Nor is a tempest/megathron killing a pod from 240K away before it can warp out or an interceptor without it's mwd on. Nor is it balanced that a Nos dominix can tank 2-3 BS's. Nor is it balanced that a Typhoon can travel at 4-5K/s or a vagabond 10K/s+ Which one do you use DS? What kind of an argument is: "This, this and this is unbalanced too, so make my module of choice unbalanced again as well!"? Also, if you've player for 3+years you have the skillpoints for more then one type of play. Just because your decided on an unbalanced one which is now still powerfull, but not so "nber" as before you want your skillpoints back? Sure, then skillpoints back on every other skill that has ever had any nerf happen to it first, prefereably in chronological order... fair is fair after all. Or maybe you can just adapt and move on like every other mature player. Anyway, it's not like they took ECM out of the game... THEN I could find your request warranted. --- The Advanced Drone Control Panel.
high star	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:04:00 - [21] i have to agree the ECM nerf is nothing more than ridiculus, the dev might as well of just taken ecm out of the game. But it does prove one thing tho. If your too lazy to adapt to someone using ecm or something like that then just come on the these forums and start whining and crying overpowered and the devs will kill it. So maybe if enough support pilots that used ECM in a fleet formation whines enough then the devs might see sense and boost the ecm platfrom ships so that they can actually do their job and just becoming a sitting duck.
Ghitza Backup Squad	Posted - 2006.12.09 13:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Lamb Chop I am a 3 yrs+ eve pilot which have specialization in many things unlike some SP poor chars that have only 1. In my time in eve, i have seen many nerfs or buffs, mechanic changes. Some good, some bad in my opinion. But all this time i have never seen such a nerf as ecm has been hit with and Caldari recons ships that are directly tied to it. I also can not see any reason behind it apart from taking the easy way out on the multispec domi/ishtar etc problem. Despite the increase in ship bonuses and new damage mods which makes Caldari recon and ecm platforms a lot harder to fit and lowers survivability of them, You have made it impossible for them to fill the role they were created for. If you think ECM was overpowered and everyone was fitting 1 on their ship, more sensible solutions were either to add a cooldown period or increase CPU amount of modules and give the dedicated ecm ships a bonus on cpu fitting of said mods. If you are a non-ecm user, think how you would feel if your projectile artilleries tracking were halved or your drone damage over night. CCP says they want ppl to specialize, well i have, and you changed the rules. And i hereby demand all my SP's to be reassigned to my will from ecm skills to whatever i desire. This probably will not happen since it will open a can of worms but i am hoping amount of sigs you get here will make you think twice about making drastic changes. You may agree or disagree with me, i am asking ppl who read this not to comment but sign it if they agree with this. If you wanna flame me or ticked off that i killed you do it somewhere else. ] Good post for inteligent ppl. Signed.
Tiberious Marz	Posted - 2006.12.09 14:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Ghitza Originally by: Lamb Chop I am a 3 yrs+ eve pilot which have specialization in many things unlike some SP poor chars that have only 1. In my time in eve, i have seen many nerfs or buffs, mechanic changes. Some good, some bad in my opinion. But all this time i have never seen such a nerf as ecm has been hit with and Caldari recons ships that are directly tied to it. I also can not see any reason behind it apart from taking the easy way out on the multispec domi/ishtar etc problem. Despite the increase in ship bonuses and new damage mods which makes Caldari recon and ecm platforms a lot harder to fit and lowers survivability of them, You have made it impossible for them to fill the role they were created for. If you think ECM was overpowered and everyone was fitting 1 on their ship, more sensible solutions were either to add a cooldown period or increase CPU amount of modules and give the dedicated ecm ships a bonus on cpu fitting of said mods. If you are a non-ecm user, think how you would feel if your projectile artilleries tracking were halved or your drone damage over night. CCP says they want ppl to specialize, well i have, and you changed the rules. And i hereby demand all my SP's to be reassigned to my will from ecm skills to whatever i desire. This probably will not happen since it will open a can of worms but i am hoping amount of sigs you get here will make you think twice about making drastic changes. You may agree or disagree with me, i am asking ppl who read this not to comment but sign it if they agree with this. If you wanna flame me or ticked off that i killed you do it somewhere else. ] Good post for inteligent ppl. Signed. Signed (i spent a decent amount of time training to specialize in ecm and all the skills i want some back too!)
Xaildaine	Posted - 2006.12.09 14:42:00 - [24] Yep .. the ECM nerf was a big one. I cant comment on the Rook as i dont fly one But The scorp badly needs another lowslot to make up for needing to fit one or 2 distortion amps.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2006.12.09 14:49:00 - [25] Originally by: Ghitza ...lots of crying.... Good post for inteligent ppl. Signed. It's not a good post for intelligent people. I, as an intelligent person would love to see some hard facts to back up this case for "ECM underpoweredness" 1) Strength of a multi with skills applied pre and post patch 2) Strength of a racial with skills applied pre and post patch (with the low slot dmg mods applied post patch) From here intelligent people will have the information from the OP as to whether it is a justifable balance issue or whine number 31,286 for the month.
Ki An Gallente Ghouls	Posted - 2006.12.09 14:52:00 - [26] The Scorpion is the best jamming ship in the game. This was the case before Revelations, and it is still the case now. What happened in Revelations was that all the other races got nerfed, and can't fit a good setup with jammers. A standard Multispec I was 4pts to all sensor types before the patch IIRC. Now it's 2pts. With Caldari BS 4 and a Scorp it's 4.1 or so if my calculations are correct, so it's slightly above the chance of, say, a Domi jamming something before the patch. Pretty good odds still I think. On the other hand, you now need a Caldari jammer-boat to jam someone. Anyway, if you don't like jamming after the patch, you can always try sensor dampening or target painting. Both are good options, even though they obviously don't beat jamming for uberness. /Ki
CleverPenguin Caldari VVS Corporition Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.09 18:19:00 - [27] Signed. ECM specialization ships need some boost. Only 1 good thing for ecm ships in revelations -> change cap requirements to jamm strenght on blackbird. _________________________________________________________
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Dark Shikari Oh boo hoo. Your rook can only permajam three battleships at once instead of five. How unfair Right up until one of those ships have ECCM, then the rook dies because it has no tank of any kind. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.10 05:34:00 - [29] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Lamb Chop Nor is it balanced that a Typhoon can travel at 4-5K/s or a vagabond 10K/s+ Which one do you use DS? Neither. But you can do something called webbing them. How exactly do you get a Vaga into your web range? Some of them do use 20km scrams and make use of falloff rather than flying up close then ***ing that they lost to a blastership. The rook was no more imbalanced in a gang fight than say, a curse, which would not only damp a ship into oblivion (and damps do not fail, ever), but nos it dry while hitting it with drones and missiles. No comment on the Gallente and Minmatar recons, unless you've got a phoenix following your huginn. Originally by:** kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction	Posted - 2006.12.10 11:24:00 - [30] Originally by: Ki An A standard Multispec I was 4pts to all sensor types before the patch IIRC. Now it's 2pts. With Caldari BS 4 and a Scorp it's 4.1 or so if my calculations are correct, so it's slightly above the chance of, say, a Domi jamming something before the patch. Pretty good odds still I think. On the other hand, you now need a Caldari jammer-boat to jam someone. With T2 multispec on a Scorp, Caldari BS 4 and the ECM skill at 4, you get 4 points, and if you use a racial, you get 6 points. Not sure about ECM damage mod stats, but I am assuming a pair of them will give you an extra 30% strength. So it pays to use a mix of racials and co-ordinate jamming with your friends, a single racial is OK on a ship with the cap to support it if you know what race target you are after, and it does not pay to fit multispecs to anything other than a dedicated EW platform. Which all happen to be Caldari, but that is as it should be. That's fine by me. I am happy with the ECM nerf. It balances it alongside tracking disruptors, which get bonuses only on Amarr ships and are completely ineffective against missile boats, with not so much as a 2.88/16 chance of doing anything to their damage. And target painters, which are a mid-slot damage mod that does nothing to affect the enemy's systems.

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