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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
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Posted - 2015.09.15 14:09:46 -
[1] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
A vital point for Sugar Kyle. The reason there is such a need for new members of FW is because there is no real long game. The incentives to stay in FW, after the initial honeymoon, are none other than LP to Isk rewards being high.
Do not stop at enhancing the new capsuleer experience in FW and then ignore the changes that are needed to give reason to stay in FW. I look forward to a thread being posted requesting further ideas on this.
Torbrand Mandero wrote:As a newbro myself dabbling in FW over the past two weeks, I'll share my notes:.....
There seems to be a lack of focus on the actual objective of FW, which is capturing plexes to capture systems. I get this, because lots of people are simply looking for fights. I feel like some plexes take too long to capture. Sitting 20 minutes on a plex in order to capture it isn't fun. . I think this feeling is exactly what many in faction war go through. They think they a signing up to fight for some sort of reason. And then they find they are just pirates that get lp. I certainly went through it when I started faction war. My best friend started in faction war about a month ago and I was talking to him on the phone and he says something like: "you know I noticed no one really cares about actually winning sov. We go into plexes just for fights. I mean its ok and like the pvp but I don't see any difference between us the neutrals we are fighting much of the time."
I think this sort of dissillusionment is a considerable problem. If faction war is to remain piracy with lp bonuses and station lock out negatives that would be unfortunate but ok. Just don't make people think it is more than that. The current plex mechanics have a lot going for them. They may very well be one of the best small scale pvp mechanics in the game. But they do need some tweaks to really make gaining territory for your faction fun.
I posted a thread in features and ideas that involves that topic. I won't copy them here because they are not all for new players. They are for all fw players who think it might be good to fight for sov.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6038178#post6038178
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
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Posted - 2015.09.15 17:18:08 -
[2] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:The SOV system itself isnt and should not be the reason for being in FW imo,
Ok thanks for your opinion, it is valid, and shared by many. But understand that allot of people do want fighting for sov to be the reason to join faction war. (although many of them are no longer in fw because fighting for sov is not fun) The thing is CCP can make both sides happy. They can improve the sov system to make fighting for it a valid reason to be in fw. Those who are in faction war for other reasons can just enjoy having more pilots involved in the game. If you want to roam around and do random pvp with the occasional system push you still can. It's a win win.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: The fact that no one cares about SOV in strategically useless non-station system doesnt strike me as a fault in the mechanics. But even those systems play a role in any factions ambition to hit higher tiers.
The problem with ambitions to hit higher tiers is that in order to achieve those ambitions you have to do boring grinds. Unfit frigates in defensive plexes and multiple alts in o-plexes. CCP can tweak the mechanics to change this so that fw occupancy warfare involves much more exciting and challenging pvp.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: The level of tier rewards is certainly open for discussion.
I agree its open for discussion. But I doubt people leave faction war because the rewards aren't good enough. The problem is there are no long term goals that are fun to achieve. If fighting for sov was fun CCP wouldn't even need to add rewards. I think that is what they envisioned when fw came out and there were no rewards. Now CCP gave tons of rewards and people can't see past the isk to understand if the sov war is actually fun to wage.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: The only thing that should make taking systems fun is watching your enemy fail to defend a system. .
At this point you are telling they shouldn't find anything fun other than what you find fun. As for me I do not think its fun when the enemy fails to defend their system. It's boring.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
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Posted - 2015.09.15 17:19:44 -
[3] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote: As for plex times. This is something a lot of people struggle with in EVE. Many do not appreciates that it takes time for things to happen because you are relying on other people to notice you, then respond. The length of time to complete a plex will not effect the volume of conflict. In fact i would expect that shorter plex timers will result in more chasing than fighting..
I appreciate this very much. That is why in order to make the sov war more fun and exciting to wage I recomend giving players better intel tools so that they will respond quicker and we will end up with more pvp per plex.
It is likely true that shortening plex timers would increase running and decrease pvp. That is why I don't recomend shortening the plex time but increasing the vp gained per plex. Like it used to be before inferno. For those who don't know increasing the vp per plex would mean finishing it faster would have a larger effect on the contested level.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: I know you would love plexes to broadcast faction wide that they are under attack with player names and ship types and i think you even mentioned once, what their fit is. But lets be realistic, with experience and activitiy this all comes naturally. Encouraging people to stay docked until they get a notification about something they care about is still a terrible idea. If you care about something, you should be undocked generating this intelligence yourself.
The biggest thing players can do to influence the amount of conflict a plex generates for them is completely in their control. Its not a question of mechanics, its a question of where they choose to plex.
Ok first I never said give the fit away. But I am in favor of better intel about plexes being attacked. This was requested by faction war players when Ank was still in faction war. The intel could be by map or otherwise just so it is accessible and in real time. More intel means the ability to give a quicker pvp response. Better pvp response means fw sov war becomes more fun and exciting.
Of course, I also never suggested people should stay docked. It should be intel that they can view while in space.
Yes of course we can choose to plex now. But it is insanely boring so very few bother other than to get fights or farm lp. You can keep blaming the players and not the mechanics. But it's really not the players fault that this is so boring and anyway the players aren't about to suddenly change. It is up to ccp to make the mechanics fw sov warfare more exciting.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
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Posted - 2015.09.16 14:07:46 -
[4] - Quote
BTW I think Thanatos Marathon hit many of the quick fixes for new players.
One point I would make though is that instead of removing t3ds from smalls, I think making a rookie plex that only allows vanilla t1 frigates might be better.
The t3d is definitely the most powerful ship that can go in a small. It used to be assault ships were. But I do think it is closer in power to other destroyers and assault ships (smalls) rather than HACs and pirate cruisers(mediums).
At least there are 4 decent t3ds that have decent parity. Novices would be better if they buffed the pirate faction ships beside the Garmurs and worms. (or nerf those 2)
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
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Posted - 2015.09.22 15:39:47 -
[5] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote: I definitely fall on the side of reducing the strength of the garmur and worm. Other pirate frigs are stronk, but those two are just nuts.
One thing that sort of makes this hard to understand in faction war is the plex restrictions versus the actual intended power of the ships.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg
Note some modification of this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKx87NwKaIE&feature=youtu.be&t=8m19s
Now according to this chart it would seem that pirate faction frigates are supposed to be more powerful than tech 2 frigates. Now I think with interceptors ccp did accomplish its objective. I wouldn't say interceptors are more powerful than pirate frigates but they are more specialized and perform their specialized role better. But assault frigates just seem clearly more powerful than pirate ships except for the garmur and worm.
So the question is whether the other pirate ships are supposed to be where the garmur and worm are, or are assault ships supposed to be stronger than pirate frigates as the current plex restrictions seem to imply?
It would make sense that a pirate frigate that costs 2 to 3 times as much as a assault frigate would be more powerful. But it seems to me that other than the worm and garmur they are clearly less powerful. The daredevil is sort of middle of the road. But the dram succubus and cruror are quite a bit weaker than afs. I would say the succubus cruror and dram are on par with plain navy frigates that often cost about 20% as much. I would say you have in order gaining power 1)vannilla t1 frigates, 2)navy faction frigates along with succubus, cruror and dram, 3)Daredevil and t1 destroyers 4) AFs 5) worm and garmur
IMO if ccp wants to justify the price of pirate frigates so they are more powerfull than afs then they need to bring the other pirate frigs up to be competitive with the worm and garmur. (I would think they would also then not allow pirate frigates in novices)
If however they want the power of the ships to match the plex restrictions so t2 ships should be more powerfull then it would seem we should bring the pirate ships in line with the daredevil.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1372
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Posted - 2015.09.23 14:02:39 -
[6] - Quote
Fourteen Maken wrote:Sugar Kyle wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Most beginners complain to me about not being able to be taxed on their LP. An LP Tax would help them a lot. New players and new entrants to FW come to you and state that their game would be improved if they could just have their LP taxed? They would if they knew what was best for them. Also the ability to donate/contract/sell LP to other players because for new players without neutral alt, and not much liquid isk it's nearly as hard to liquidate lp as it is to earn it. I don't think anyone would miss the hassle of cashing out lp, most would be happy to sell it at a discount to a trader to get the isk. The best way to balance fw missions is to delete them. and this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447801&find=unread
The lp market crashed because CCP was and is very slow to tweak the faction war lp faucets. You are right that fw missions are a huge part of that faucet. But I do not think they should be deleted just have the level 4 mission amounts toned down.
I thought many corps are already offering an lp buy back plan for their players. And many corps already would help with logistics for new players. Although being able to give lp to another player or corp would be nice, I am not sure how taxing lp helps new players.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1429
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Posted - 2015.11.05 20:57:07 -
[7] - Quote
Doctor Knuckles wrote:Cearain wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote: I definitely fall on the side of reducing the strength of the garmur and worm. Other pirate frigs are stronk, but those two are just nuts.
One thing that sort of makes this hard to understand in faction war is the plex restrictions versus the actual intended power of the ships. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg Note some modification of this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKx87NwKaIE&feature=youtu.be&t=8m19s Now according to this chart it would seem that pirate faction frigates are supposed to be more powerful than tech 2 frigates. Now I think with interceptors ccp did accomplish its objective. I wouldn't say interceptors are more powerful than pirate frigates but they are more specialized and perform their specialized role better. But assault frigates just seem clearly more powerful than pirate ships except for the garmur and worm. So the question is whether the other pirate ships are supposed to be where the garmur and worm are, or are assault ships supposed to be stronger than pirate frigates as the current plex restrictions seem to imply? It would make sense that a pirate frigate that costs 2 to 3 times as much as a assault frigate would be more powerful. But it seems to me that other than the worm and garmur they are clearly less powerful. The daredevil is sort of middle of the road. But the dram succubus and cruror are quite a bit weaker than afs. I would say the succubus cruror and dram are on par with plain navy frigates that often cost about 20% as much. I would say you have in order gaining power 1)vannilla t1 frigates, 2)navy faction frigates along with succubus, cruror and dram, 3)Daredevil and t1 destroyers 4) AFs 5) worm and garmur IMO if ccp wants to justify the price of pirate frigates so they are more powerfull than afs then they need to bring the other pirate frigs up to be competitive with the worm and garmur. (I would think they would also then not allow pirate frigates in novices) If however they want the power of the ships to match the plex restrictions so t2 ships should be more powerfull then it would seem we should bring the pirate ships in line with the daredevil. what no, just no. Except the Cruor, pirate frigs (well, some fits) can absolutely **** on most AFs, and generally rip navy frigs apart, no way they can be put on the same level Example, Succubus (underpowered in your opinion) can completely murder hawks, harpies, enyons, wolves, jags, retris. TBH the only ones it has problems dealing with are brick tank ishkurs and vengeances, but it can easily disengage from them.
I don't know what to say other than I just disagree on both a fleet level and on a smaller gang/solo level. Wolves and Jags are not great I agree. But a gang of them could easilly fight off a group succubus. The retribution is one ship that I agree could use a buff. The succubus may be able to get away but it won't hold a plex from the vast majority of assault ships.
They cost 2-3xs as much and are just weaker than afs.
Yes pirate frigates are generally are stronger than navy frigates but they are supposed to be since they are about 5-6xs the cost. Even there the dramiel is pretty pathetic.
edit: tracking might be an issue for solo wolves so I changed that to groups.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1429
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Posted - 2015.11.06 18:12:02 -
[8] - Quote
Solo: All the mwd Afs are faster than an ab succubus. AFs have a nice bonus to mwds and usually decent fitting room (which the succubus lacks). So fitting a succubus to kite will probably not turn out well against most afs. I would rather have the mwd af every time. If you put a mwd on a succubus you are either losing a valuable mid (if you dual prop) or losing the main point of the ship (if you go without an ab).
Hawk: my CN rockets on a hawk hit out past scram range. Even with missile projection and bombardment at level 4 you hit to 13.2k. Most competent hawk pilots will at least put one tech 2 em shield rig on. Whether its 2 masbs or 1 with 2 webs the hawk has this fight pretty easilly. If you happened to fit a td to your succubus its even easier for the hawk. You might be able to get away but that is about it.
You may be able to get in close on a rail harpy or enyo but with an mwd they are faster than your succubus, albeit less manuverable. I'm calling that just a fun fight but I would still pick the rail mwd kiters.
As far as a blaster harpy/enyo with no back up plan for long range or scram kiting, then yeah they will die. But they will die to a kestrel. That is just a dumb way to fit a solo ship. Give me 2 enyos or 2 blarpys versus 2 succubus's and I am betting pretty hard on the afs.
As for the 2 midslot afs that is a problem for solo. The retri is really only about as good as the coercer. But in a gang with some some sort of logi the retri might have a place - I can't say.
The wolf has the resist profile to make shield tank but only has 2 midslots. Yeah that ship is in a bad place.
The jag is pretty bad as far as afs but that will likely kill or chase off a succubus fairly easilly. You seem to agree on the vengence and ishkur.
So solo I would say jag, hawk, ishkur and vengence win. I would take a rail harpy over a succubus but I would call that a tie. Enyo as a solo ship is better for jumping in on more than one frigate than a succubus but I will give you that and the wolf and retri.
The but the wolf and retri are really not solo ships with only 2 midslots.
So if solo is supposed to justify the succubus costing 2-3xs as much as an af I am not seeing it at all. There are just many clearly stronger afs to choose from. Its an overpriced ship that I would really love to be decent.
By and large what I said applies to all the other pirate frigates as well except the garmur and worm. The afs are simply more powerfull even when flown solo.
The big advantage of the succubus is that it is not so strong as afs so you will get more fights than if you sit there in a hawk ishkur or vengence.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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