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Trind2222
Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.03.31 04:57:00 -
[301]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 31/03/2007 04:39:38 Edited by: Goumindong on 31/03/2007 04:35:37 the extra low puts the Absolution on top of the harbi in terms of gank. Since it can fit that and tank at the same time.
Since half the damage bonus is on the bottom there is no worry about having in all on top.
Another way to limit the Harbi, is that even in its current iteration it cant fit a full rack of heavy pulse and a full mwd/inj/rep setup without powergrid modifications. If you scale cpu so that it can-not fit a MWD/rep/full rack[or inj/rep/full rack, with AB/rep/full rack allowable] without a co-proc and work on the fittings for beams[bringing their cpu down] this would allow the same powergrid discrepencies between beams and pulses in the mid range while limiting the options that a pulse user has in fitting. A co-proc nessesity would bring the low slot advantage of the absolution over the Harbinger to two, further spreading the damage and tank between them.
This would allow a full gank harbinger to be set up with 8 guns and > absolution damage[b 50 dps from the drones], but its tank would be as flimsy as a poorly tanked cruiser. I.E. paper thin.
5% cap size bonus > 5% recharge bonus even though the recharge bonus yields a better peak rate of rep imo.
ed: and remember despite the first post, no optimal bonus on the harbi.
ed: Im going to take some time and make some edits i think.
The resion i did made the bonus as it is for the ships is becose there are no Tire 3 Batle cruser but so far sa i now bace bons for Harbringer and Prophecy still to have have 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level i find it hard to balance out the stats stats but i hope cpp make tire 3 batlecrusers so it esyer to make same bace line.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.31 05:53:00 -
[302]
Trind. I wasnt responding to you. I couldnt even read your post. I cant read the one above this. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
AKULA UrQuan
Caldari STK Scientific Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.31 07:46:00 -
[303]
Edited by: AKULA UrQuan on 31/03/2007 07:42:55 The slot layouts turn amarr ships into gallente ships painted gold and pretty much trashes one of the things make amarr different from the other races. I will fully agree amarr does need some help. Just not this much.
Two things can be done to give amarr a hand. -First is to ditch the now outdated -25% capicator capacity in favor of a +30% penility to capicator recharge time. Have more raw capicator to start a fight with and the peak recharge rate ends up being just slightly higher (~2.5%). This is something people other than amarr would cheer for.
The Vindicator and Vigilant would need their second bonus looked into. Haveing lots of cap at the ready is those ships special trick.
-Second is to tweak the capicator useage of the lasers. This has been tossed out there more times than I even dare to count. 10%-15% would do alot to help out amarr. Still, this one has been debated to death.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.31 08:11:00 -
[304]
the fix for amarr is to change gallente ships? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.31 09:22:00 -
[305]
Made changes to the harbinger, Zealot, Apoc and Abaddon. I.E. anything listed as "new new" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
VanNostrum
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Posted - 2007.03.31 10:17:00 -
[306]
Let's face it, Amarrians look far from being the dominant (or used to be dominant) force in the galaxy. Their ships are hard to fit and NOS>Amarr
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AKULA UrQuan
Caldari STK Scientific Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.03.31 11:31:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Goumindong ed: I dont understand the "this makes amarr like Gallente" harp that has been going on in this thread.
One of the things that makes amarr different from the other races is that, in general, they're ships are really short on mid slots. Cladari are short on lows. Gallente in my view overall have the best mix. Minmatar are kinda all over the place to the point where one would think their ship designers had ADD. That was the point I was trying to make.
So far Revelations is a sureal mix to two things. Both are not helping the "Amarr problem" one bit.
-First is the "Hitpoint Wars". Crazy passive tanked drakes is one example of this. Another example is battleships sporting well over 20k armor in a gank setup. Amarr ships are expected to dig through that before their cap dies? That's just nuts. The hitpoint buff was a good idea for the stock ships but a very bad one for plates/extenders.
-Second is the "Capacitor Wars". It use to be only the domi was expected to run more than two heavy nos regularly. Not anymore these days. I keep running into more and more cases where battleships other than domies are waveing around 4+ nos/neuts in small gangs and solo. Firepower is no longer imporant. How does a race that has the heaviest cap use in the game deal with this? It's forced to bring even more nos/neuts to the fight. How fun.
errr....I'm hi-jacking the thread. Better stop now.
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Vaine Amarr
Amarr Upright Citizens Brigade
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Posted - 2007.03.31 18:26:00 -
[308]
Apart from the bonus changes to the Abaddon, I like this :) __________________________ It's great beeing Amarr, ain't it? |
Misanth
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Posted - 2007.03.31 20:15:00 -
[309]
I don't understand why devs, and you, want to change the 'role' of the abaddon. As a pure pvp/ratter I love the suggestion you did, Arbitrator, Curse and Pilgrim is my ships of choice today and that Apoc is just lurve all over it.
..but, and here's the big thing; what about mission runners? Personally I don't do it, but my corpmates does, in fact my RL brother use that for isk-farming (with greater success than I have, killing rats only). I could never see the geddon or abaddon as a mission-running bs. The Apoc in it's present shape is the only really viable PvE-centered ship we have, and the choice for the Amarrians that want to get their iskies through missions.
Changing that would rule Amarr out of mission running altogether and make us even the slowest-income-race. Change the tracking disruption bonus to a drone hit point/damage bonus (i.e. "another domi") and it'd be more like it, from a PvE perspective. Tho, that'd make it way too powerful in PvP instead, so it's no real option, right?
Just let the Apoc be, boost it a bit PvE centered and ignore it for PvP, it has no role there. Geddon is the firepower and Abaddon the more multipurpose one.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.03.31 20:30:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Misanth I don't understand why devs, and you, want to change the 'role' of the abaddon. As a pure pvp/ratter I love the suggestion you did, Arbitrator, Curse and Pilgrim is my ships of choice today and that Apoc is just lurve all over it.
..but, and here's the big thing; what about mission runners? Personally I don't do it, but my corpmates does, in fact my RL brother use that for isk-farming (with greater success than I have, killing rats only). I could never see the geddon or abaddon as a mission-running bs. The Apoc in it's present shape is the only really viable PvE-centered ship we have, and the choice for the Amarrians that want to get their iskies through missions.
Changing that would rule Amarr out of mission running altogether and make us even the slowest-income-race. Change the tracking disruption bonus to a drone hit point/damage bonus (i.e. "another domi") and it'd be more like it, from a PvE perspective. Tho, that'd make it way too powerful in PvP instead, so it's no real option, right?
Just let the Apoc be, boost it a bit PvE centered and ignore it for PvP, it has no role there. Geddon is the firepower and Abaddon the more multipurpose one.
You mean Apoc role change.
In response to that.
At the moment, the Abaddon is a better PvE centered mission ship, both the apoc and abaddon are able to get a dual rep tank with all their guns firing at the same time to run permanenelty. The Abaddon just does 25% more damage and tanks 25% harder.
The new apoc, with 5 bonused heavy drones, the ability to shield tank if you wanted[in a strength similar to the ravens of today] and with 4 missile launchers and 4 turrets would be a much much much better ratter/missioner than the current Apoc ever was. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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Misanth
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Posted - 2007.04.02 23:03:00 -
[311]
Edited by: Misanth on 02/04/2007 23:00:23
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Misanth *snip*
You mean Apoc role change.
In response to that.
At the moment, the Abaddon is a better PvE centered mission ship, both the apoc and abaddon are able to get a dual rep tank with all their guns firing at the same time to run permanenelty. The Abaddon just does 25% more damage and tanks 25% harder.
The new apoc, with 5 bonused heavy drones, the ability to shield tank if you wanted[in a strength similar to the ravens of today] and with 4 missile launchers and 4 turrets would be a much much much better ratter/missioner than the current Apoc ever was.
Yes, the first 'abaddon' = apoc. Got the rest apoc/'baddon right in that post tho.. I got a tendency to mix names. >.< Not very good when doing posts like this.
Aight, I am aware of what the Abaddon can do today, but as you know it also has it's cap issues, unlike the Apoc. Today you can use an Apoc with ccc-rigs and just get an insane tank if you want, which ofc makes it quite slow - but: it makes it viable for those with less skillpoints, and thus something to be considered. For anyone with more skillpoints you open up for more viable dps/tank builds, but I thought ships are for everone and not just assuming everyone in a bs to have played 2years+?
..which also is the reply to your comment about shield-tanked drone-boat-Apocs: it makes me want to puke when I read it. Your figures are generally correct and I respect your ideas and suggestions, generally well placed, but you can't seriously mean that? This character, Misanth, is 1.5 year old and 100% Amarr, with BS 5, but honestly I have problems fitting a BS properly with my skillpoints already. The Apoc is the only option as the Abaddon will either be dps or tank, I can't do both. Assuming I'd have to skill shieldtanking as well makes race-specific shiptypes pointless for anything but a timesink.
But what do I know, maybe Battleships and lv4 missions should only be for players with 2year+ skillpoints. It just seems odd to me as it'll limit options for players new to this game.
Anyway, the day after I posted my earlier post we had the interview with Hammerhead posted, and it seems that this summer we'll have level 5 and 6 missions if devs get as they want. That'd mean groups share rewards and the need for a soloing mission-running ship would be less, and yah, the droneboat would play a great support role for such things then.
Don't forget tho that even tho most that play EvE have played it for quite some time, it'll also take another (soon) 3 years for new players to catch up and be able to do what current players do. And most new Amarr pilots will go for; 1) learning 2) get alot of engineering and mechanic skills to 4 (and some to 5) and 3) they'll still be needed to get the spaceship command and gunnery skills to be able to fit these ships. Not saying they should get things faster and easier than anyone else, just saying that to stay viable in pvp they'll be more likely to specialize in a race and/or size (like me, Amarr with HAC/recon/cruiser/bc/cmd ship) rather than being able to cross-faction train. Ships and their bonuses should first and foremost reflect their race rather than anything else, at least as I see it.
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n0thing
Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.
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Posted - 2007.04.02 23:34:00 -
[312]
to op, dunno about med slots for Amarr ships, i.e. all of em, just makes em look like Gallente with booster capacitor/armor and look much stronger then.(minus drones).
Otherwise, great post. ---
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.02 23:40:00 -
[313]
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/04/2007 23:41:32 fit best named[modulated] weapons and standard crystals. With pulses this brings the cap use on the Abaddons guns down to about 24 cap/second.
Only 12 cap/second more than the Apoc. The Abaddon has to run a full ONE more cap module in order to sustain its tank compared to the Apoc. And in return, gains 25% damage on its guns, and 25% strength to tank.
Comparativly, the current Apoc can only pick one of those thigs to do, and it will be stacking nerfed.
----
Having a varied skill path does not limit new players, but instead enhances their ability to choose. Mabye they like being slavers but want to use missiles? Maybe they like to scream "Im a CHARGING MA LAZOR!" as they sit stationary and blast things with their beams/pulses of death, but still want to be able to dump some ranks into torps and drones and rip up the level 4s?
Currently, the three Amarran battleships pretty much all have the same role. The Armageddon does good DPS from a long ways away and doesnt tank. The Apoc and Abaddon tank and do bad dps from a long ways away. Both the Apoc and Abaddon make good AC/Blaster boats.
But the Abaddon does what the apoc does better in just about every way, and that is saying something because the Abaddon is currently imho, terrible[unless fit with ACs or Blasters].
Also. Looking at the Energy Weapon Rig penalty reduction, i am going to go add that to the punisher and maller instead of tracking, because its awesome, unique, and fits with the Amarran "laser supremacy" style. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.02 23:48:00 -
[314]
Originally by: n0thing to op, dunno about med slots for Amarr ships, i.e. all of em, just makes em look like Gallente with booster capacitor/armor and look much stronger then.(minus drones).
Otherwise, great post.
How so? Do minmatar perform like Gallente? I dont think so, yet they have the same slotting and easier time fitting armor tanks stronger than amarr due to cap use.
Gallente tanks are better against lower DPS, Amarr tanks are better against higher DPS, but otherwise they are not much different in application.
I dont see how, if minmatar ships that have 4 mids arent going to perform like gallente, then amarr, with even more range over minmatar, and much much worse tracking are going to do that. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Misanth
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Posted - 2007.04.03 00:11:00 -
[315]
Overall a good post and I agree in most cases. Hope you see why I made my posts regarding the Apoc, it was purely regarding BS' and PvE for younger players - and I posted from todays perspective, did not count in your suggested changes, simply as I can't test them :P ..so I have no means to know how they would work in reality.
Not entirely happy with the devs approach to the Apoc about a bigger Arbi, weird really as I love that kind of ships. It's just that.. conservative. Changing it means changing what it's used for today. I'd rather see things buffed/fixed rather than changed.
Well, put it this way; if we got these BS' you suggested, I'd start usin the Apoc frequently in PvP (currently I have Geddon/cheap fitted for POS taking and no other BS for no situation). For PvE? I'd possibly start using the 'new Apoc' for lv5-6 group-missions, and consider it for PvE ratting - but I'd still use the Harbinger over the 'geddon and 'baddon for that. Is that the effect devs want from changing the Apoc? Is that the effect you seek?
Just curious.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.03 00:31:00 -
[316]
Like it or not, the Apoc is getting a role change.
And yes, i would like to see it being used more in PvP and PvE. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Misanth
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Posted - 2007.04.03 00:56:00 -
[317]
True enough. And that kind of BS would probably be viable without spending insane amounts of money on it, as well as making it good to have bs 5 for anything else but a stepstone for bigger ships.
Still thinking if it'd be better to give the Zealot 15m3 dronespace and keep the slotlayout rather than trading a lowslot for a mid-, but.. hmm, ew drones shine in the cap/range sensitive fights. A midslot would probably add the same effect you'd try get with the 3x drones, except that the drones wouldn't drain cap and - you'd still have that extra (current) lowslot. As well as it'd even more cement the Zealots ranged power.
Having a moral dilemma with myself in this argument, feeling I'm probably wanting too much but drones are still darn easy to shoot down (espec for cruiser sized ships). I like the Zealot pretty much as it is, just want that extra ew-touch.
Anyway, that's a rant, already gave the constructive feedback on the Apoc-. Let's see what CCP has in mind.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.03 01:06:00 -
[318]
Zealot loses a high for a mid.
Zealot DPS at the moment isnt really problematic since it can deliver that damage at such strong ranges. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Camel S
North Star Networks Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.04.06 08:54:00 -
[319]
Awesome post!
Well thought out and a much better balance than the current bonuses. Honestly CCP should do one of these for every race and put them out for review/testing.
I miss the 10% optimal BS.By the time I have trained hybrids, shield tanking and Caldari BS lvl5 they will have nerfed the Rokh
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Talla Hurzin
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Posted - 2007.04.07 09:42:00 -
[320]
I'd like to hear your reasoning for putting a "Energy Weapon Rig reduction" bonus on the ships. A reduction to what? stacking penalty? calibration costs?
I personally think that bonus is not very good, because it applies only to such a specific 'flavour' item that not everyone can fit/use, or wants to because of various reasons. The MWD bonus of the Thorax may be specific, but how many times do you see a Thorax without a MWD? 90% of all setups will have one, where as the presence of a rig isn't something that, as it stands now with the current cost of rigs, too widely used.
The bonus 'slot' would be much better used if it was a universal bonus like every other one; 5% to armour resistance, tracking, damage, or RoF bonus, etc.
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Mrs Amadeus
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Posted - 2007.04.07 18:39:00 -
[321]
bump for a good thread... good job.
/signed
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.07 19:27:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Talla Hurzin I'd like to hear your reasoning for putting a "Energy Weapon Rig reduction" bonus on the ships. A reduction to what? stacking penalty? calibration costs?
I personally think that bonus is not very good, because it applies only to such a specific 'flavour' item that not everyone can fit/use, or wants to because of various reasons. The MWD bonus of the Thorax may be specific, but how many times do you see a Thorax without a MWD? 90% of all setups will have one, where as the presence of a rig isn't something that, as it stands now with the current cost of rigs, too widely used.
The bonus 'slot' would be much better used if it was a universal bonus like every other one; 5% to armour resistance, tracking, damage, or RoF bonus, etc.
Should be "energy weapon rig penalty reduction" If i missed the penalty ill go back and change it.
What it would do, is would all the pilot to add weapon modules to his ship because the PG increase was so low, and amarran PG so high, in manners that didnt directly stack with the role he was playing. I.E. he couldnt stack a bunch of damage mods on because that wouldnt be beneficial if he has heat sinks, but he could cram some opimal range rigs on because he doesnt have any tracking modules.
The point of this was to diversify the line and allow customization without sticking to similar bonuses accross multipule ships[for instance now we have the cap/resist bonus type and see it on the punisher, maller, and prophecy], and when similar bonuses were there they would be more likly to produce a number of varying setups. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
IamBen
Caldari Twilight Void M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.04.15 22:25:00 -
[323]
Great post, i dont like the rig bonus ideas, but some of the other ones are great.
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Tera Patrick143
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Posted - 2007.04.24 12:15:00 -
[324]
i find that amarr cruisers with medium lasers don't suffer cap wise from shooting (all energy support skills to lvl 4) and infact you're more likely to die b4 you run out of cap .. lets face it ... that omen should be a spray and pray ... so give it a damage bonus and rate of fire bonus or a somewhat ability to hold on to it's armor
but as it stands i find the omen pretty useless..
lets be real here.... maybe think about giving other race's cruisers a decent drone bay so maybe they can actually fight an AF/inty without them orbiting you and not able to counter it at all... (especially amarr cruisers - hardly a drone bay besides for the arbitrator) can't really fit speed mods like MWD's due to the gimped med slots to actually attempt to get a web on them.. and along with t2 turret ammo giving you a tracking penalty - you're a sitting duck....
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William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.04.24 12:47:00 -
[325]
On the laser rig bonus:
It might be better to give a laser PG use bonus, this would have much the same result when laser rigs are used, and still act as a bonus even if such things aren't fitted.
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Rosalina Sarinna
KHM Corporation
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Posted - 2007.04.24 13:32:00 -
[326]
I agree with most of what you posted, especially the midslots (for example the Retribution assault frigate with ONE mid... can either go slow with a webber, or quick without...). However, I dont think you should be trying to re-invent ship slots like the "new new apoc" stripping out 4 turrets from its current stats. Some people (me included) specifically dont train missiles because they use fully turreted ships.
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Saint Breven
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Posted - 2007.04.30 03:50:00 -
[327]
*bump*
So, do the devs have anything to say about this?
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.04.30 04:37:00 -
[328]
Originally by: Saint Breven *bump*
So, do the devs have anything to say about this?
They wrote a dev blog about it, they very likly have seen the topic, it doesnt need to be bumped. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Camilo Cienfuegos
Caldari EP0CH
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Posted - 2007.06.01 07:43:00 -
[329]
I agree with 99% of this thread, and will happily sign it as is. However, I have but one complaint:
Quote: The New Retribution Slots: 4/2/5 (-1 high, +1 mid)
I may be alone here, but I actually like the limited 5-1-5 setup. It's fitting that Amarrian engineering would build a frigate that can both absorb and deal more damage than any other, but neglect the primary function of smaller ships - to tag their opponent for the larger ships to pulverise.
After all, Amarr lost to the Matari because their smaller vessels suck!
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Cyphr Sonic
Caldari Catch Twenty Two Phobos Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.01 08:19:00 -
[330]
seems well thought out I would sign. it doesn't seem like Amarr is gimped so badly but maybe its more obviously as size increases.
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